nht

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

melgross said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

The big advantage for Panasonic (and Sony) is that they 'know' digital and everything associated with it (screens, viewfinders, video processors, software) far better than Canon or Nikon. They have far better logistical capacity (again, like Sony).

I don't understand the boutique reference. This Panasonic system doesn't exist yet and any current boutique status for the mount will be lost quickly seeing as a system for the pro  markets without lenses is dead in the water. The same thing happened with m4/3. 

Of course, Leica will also provide lenses for Panasonic without the Leica branding or certification (again, just like with m4/3).

The cat will be amongst the pigeons as a major player with ample resources is entering a specialised and relatively small market and brings with it the kind of design agility that the likes of Canon and Nikon can only dream of. They will also back the product up with a new pro services network. Something that will be very easy to do given their existing networks. Sony and Panasonic know each other very well but in this case it is Sony that has something to lose.

The biggest issue is the user and how to get him/her onboard but this announcement is largely a declaration of intentions and from the m4/3 (which will continue btw) experience, Panasonic won't just dip a toe into the water, it will carve out a space for itself. 

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/the-fight-at-the-top.html

"Too many folk believe that it is the product and technology that is the thing that wins a market war like we're about to have in mirrorless full frame. No, it's not. The thing that wins is having a customer focus. No customer, no sale, no matter what the technology. So it's how you engage and speak to that potential customer that's important. Sure, describing why your technology is better might be part of that, but you actually have to catch the customer's attention before you can get to that discussion."

Sounds like like another company that we well know.

Weird that that piece totally misses one major area for new growth: new users, with no entrenchment.

The author seemingly failed to forecast the entry of Panasonic into this reduced market too.

Read more, post less. Thom never stated anywhere that they wouldn't enter the full frame market, but now that they have, it's pretty easy to state that Panasonic is no disruption to either the Full Frame MILC or DSLR's from Canon or Nikon.

I'll post the prior link, again;

https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/2018-mirrorless-camera/july-september-2018-mirrorl/new-baby-elephant-enters.html

If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up.

Right now, Sony holds near 100% of the Full Frame MILC market, but that will drop rapidly as Canon and Nikon ship their first generation. Together, those three will have 90% of the market, and to Panasonic is many months away from delivery of their first models.

If you don't agree with Thom, al least post some links stating how and why Panasonic is going to be taking marketshare from the three current players.

Here's another quote;

"How does the L mount stack up against the other mirrorless full frame mounts?

• Canon RF — 20mm flange, 54mm throat
• Consortium L — 20mm flange, 51.6mm throat
• Nikon Z — 16mm flange, 55mm throat
• Sony FE — 18mm flange, 46mm throat

If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back"

That he 'never said they wouldn't enter the market' is besides the point. No. He didn't even mention them!

What a huge miss! He writes a piece on the 'fight at the top' in early September, when rumours were rife on this Panasonic move and didn't even make a passing reference to it. That failing undermined the whole piece.

Then he writes another piece and calls them 'the baby elephants' in the room. Very clever! Simply because they have no current presence with this new proposal. It's actually more like a mammoth just entered the room. LOL. 

"If you think that there are a lot of new users to find in the market, you should post a link to back it up"

No need. The laws of nature. People leave the market retirement, death, career change etc and people enter the market.

The point is, there is no entrenchment for those people. Not in knowhow, habits or equipment. In such a small market the actual change is more noticeable.

From the other article:

"Sigma has yet to produce a digital camera with convincing UI, focus, and low light performance."

That is also wierd. Did he forget that although Sigma will be producing cameras for this mount, the real push will be to put lenses onto the market? 14 next year alone (mainly the same Sigmas currently available for Sony. Panasonic is in the opposite position. The real push is with the camera although it will also produce lenses.

"Safety in numbers" 

He says that for the, ehem 'little elephants', (protection for the 'dwarves' LOL), but then, when it suits him says:

"Canikony" to claim "90% of the market"

And promptly lumps Canon, Nikon and Sony into one group for no valid reason.

Why not separate those numbers and try to imagine a fourth major player? Of course that player has 0% of the market because it has no phones available yet, but it is clear that Panasonic is NOT entering this market to be a niche player. Reason enough to take major notice.

Saying the other three have 90% of the market make little sende unless stating the obvious is back in fashion.

As for the mount, he says:

"If you're to believe Canon's and Nikon's technical descriptions about how a bigger mount is better for future new optical designs, Nikon has the most flexible mount with Canon a bit behind that. The L-mount and the FE mount have some liabilities when it comes to ray-bending at the back."

The obvious stance to that is what if you don't believe all that? Are we to imagine Panasonic does? 

And then, how far can Canon and especially Nikon go if they lose even relatively few sales to Panasonic? Are they so healthy that they can trudge on for a long period unaffected or will alarm bells sound sooner rather than later.

Looking at how well m4/3 turned out I am optimistic about this new project. 

We'll see how it turns out but anyone claiming this is a failed project, or too high a mountain to climb, really doesn't understand what Panasonic has already pulled off in m4/3. Notably the GH series.

Your understanding of the industry is abysmal.

Well, you often claim people are wrong and mostly never support it with ANYTHING external to your own opinion so in this case we're on equal terms!

My data supports his "opinion".

Where's your data?

For the record, I'm your so called"stalker" because you post massive amounts of misinformation that needs correction, constantly. Still, I'm surprised that you have attached your "brand" to Panasonic, as if they need your help.

'Equal terms'  because, in this case, and for PANASONIC, in this area, there literally is NO DATA.

They don't actually have a product on the market.

It all boils down to opinion. 

Of course, we can look elsewhere for supporting data and use that as the basis of an opinion. That is what I have done. 

Let's take the EVF. After 10 years of enormous success with EVF, do you have any reason to believe that the EVF on the S Series will not be one of the best, if not the best on the market next year?

Etc, etc

avon b7 said:

StrangeDays said:

avon b7 said:

StrangeDays said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

melgross said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

maciekskontakt said:

.

anantksundaram said:

avon b7 said:

Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

....

Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?

Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?

So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.

I'll post this link;

https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

Flakey data?

Niche features?

The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

There is no need to go on the defensive.

Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.

I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.

"Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

"But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

How's that Mate 20 doing?.

By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

Maybe next year.

Thanks for at least providing an answer.

As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

That was part of my doubt. From the article:

"We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

We'll have to wait and see.

Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.

Why bring it up?

Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. Probably because it is easy to confuse the two features.

And to add insult to injury, now, you throw in:

"Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature"

Why didn't you say that in your first reply instead of going into a rant on Huawei and mentioning Portrait Mode? 

It at least, finally, provides a decent answer, so thanks for that.

As for the rest, you are re-hashing the same false claims as you always do and wanting to take this far off topic. Open up a new thread if you wish and I will correct all of your claims. I will put you straight on every point. Literally. Quotes and all. We will see what I really said and in what context and if your claims are true.

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

Depth Control is explained in the video, among other things;

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=59&v=_g8aLVGXyc0

Perhaps you might have first searched Apple for marketing information on the iPhone X?

"Coming up blank" isn't really a satisfactory answer to a notably easy search.

From the Apple XS page, scrolling about half way down;

Intelligent A12 Bionic.

 

This is the smartest, most powerful chip in a smartphone, with our next-generation Neural Engine. For amazing augmented reality experiences. Incredible portraits with Depth Control. And speed and fluidity in everything you do.

So why the diversion into your portrait mode answer? Why didn't you go straight to the point if you had the answer?

I knew how it operated as I had seen it during the event stream, it's part of Portrait Mode and will be available as an update this fall, but didn't know what it was called, and as it requires hardware of the new models; my iPhone 7 doesn't support it. So, with the exception that the extra functionality is called Depth Control, I gave you all of the information previously. 

I looked that up after I posted, but doesn't change the fact that you didn't even attempt to figure that out yourself, and still haven't, I would guess. 

So now, you feel entitled to blame me, because you are either too inept to do a simple search to figure it out yourself, or too lazy, or you're afraid of all things Apple.

Or, he was never interested in the answer and is only interested in dropping FUD pellets everywhere he goes. 

Or, it was exactly as I said it was!

The simplest conclusion is the one you can't bring yourself to see because in reality you passed judgement from the outset.

Your over the top reactions and accusations have laid bare your inability to see past your own obsessions. So much that you cannot see a simple question for what it is. I even made it clear why I asked it in the first place.

The easy answer would have been that this feature is new to iPhone but isn't new. That's all that was necessary.

In the end there is nothing new in this feature. I really thought there would be, and, as I said, I was taking for granted that the feature (as explained in the article) was already available on all dual camera iPhones. Available since the get go.

I am surprised, frankly. I thought there was more to the feature itself. I didn't see the presentation by the way, but the take away from many replies in this thread is the ultra defensive attitude of some people.

“I’m just asking a question! See!”

Yeah, man, we see. Your knockoffs did it first and you want everybody to know it. Got it loud and clear. 

Er. No.

If I wanted that I would have said it last week. If I wanted that, I would have said much more. Much, much more. 

I suggest you reflect on what you are saying and how you are saying it. 

StrangeDays said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

avon b7 said:

melgross said:

avon b7 said:

tmay said:

maciekskontakt said:

.

anantksundaram said:

avon b7 said:

Is there a difference between the camera mode you are describing and what Huawei phones have done for years?

The reason I ask is that when they announced the feature I automatically assumed it would be different but what you describe is practically identical to how Huawei phones have operated since the P9. I thought it was already possible on Apple's dual lens phones.

....

Or is not so much what it does as how it does it?

Huawei? Who cares. Do major US network carriers even carry that pos?

So you assume that rest of the world does not matter, huh? Arrogance like that does not pay of. Huiwaei dominates markets elswhere and perhaps instead of being arrogant you may need reality check that those phones as well as Samsung dominate in Europe and Apple iPhone is nowhere near. You should star caring because on competitive markets other vendors build solutions that Apple follows (not leads) and some brainwash seems to be out there that Apple is the only innovator. The fact is that Apple came with few features 9(like biometrics) later than Samsung for example, but Samsung never claimed it was copied by Apple so you assume that Apple was first. Instead of reading only Apple news maye be you should start tracking general technology state. You would be surprized what you did not know and assumed that only one vendor innovates.

Yes we do care about Huwaei, Samsung, LG and Google. Some pople did not review some features and thise dominant on other markets companies already have some stuff that nobody seems here to have a clue about. On top of that some of it is far more practical. Some even say that Pixel 2 photo quality is now top on the market - not Apple iPhones. there will be those now claimin that Aperture mode is so innovative. Well on phones it alreay exist, and it was used on SLR cameras (I used it for years) for decades now. It just got squeezed into smaller package - nothing else.

I'll post this link;

https://www.ped30.com/2018/09/20/counterpoint-regions-apple-iphone/

Apple doesn't have an iPhone under $449, though there may be lower cost models manufacturer for India.

Seriously, do you think that this data makes Apple look bad?

Sure, Apple doesn't cater at all to the under $400 market, where the bulk of Huawei's sales are, but I will state that it is likely that Apple will sell a similar number of XS and XS Max units World Wide by the end of this month, as Huawei has sold of the P20 series since its March release. The P20 Pro isn't a great seller, although Avon B7 has tried to portray it as a great success, with pretty flakey data. Maybe it is. Nonetheless, is a likelihood that Apple will sell 80 to 85 million iPhones next quarter, and about 70% of those, will be the X models.

Being first with niche features is a fool's game, but appropriate for the Android OS device market, where any differentiation at all is a huge marketing necessity. That's likely why we see mostly unbaked innovation in these devices first. Apple, works off of internal roadmap, so these companies, and their customers, as guinea pigs for new features is actually savvy.

Flakey data?

Niche features?

The data on P20 Series sales came straight from Huawei. Official numbers. It has been a massive success.

Aperture Mode is one of the main features on Huawei phones, not a niche feature. Even on my little Honor 10.

I didn't ask this question last week simply because I thought the feature was different. Seeing the description here, and noting that the process is virtually identical, prompted me to ask.

There is no need to go on the defensive.

Well, as we all know, Huawei cheats on testing, something I notice you failed to respond to when I posted that to you in a different thread. I wouldn’t be surprised if they lie about other things too. Whether you like it or not, Chinese companies are known to be, shall we say, flexible, in their company reports. A tiny picture also says little about the quality of the effect, as most everything looks good in a small size. At any rate, we need a couple of dozen images of different types to get an idea as to how well these features work overall, because one well selected image might be great, while most others may be crap.

aperture mode has to prove itself. Samsung also has a variable aperture, but images using it are no better than those not using it. We’ve also seen a coup,e of phones using two cameras, one taking luminance images, and the other using color images. Supposedly, much better images result. And indeed, the marketing images shown did look pretty good. But when the phones were out in the “wild”, it turned out that the images were pretty bad. These gimmicks rarely work.

and yes, that evaluation goes for all phones.

I responded to the Huawei benchmark (and the DSLR) news the very first time it was mentioned here. I responded clearly and openly and was critical of the behaviour. You missed it, it seems.

You will forgive me for simply passing on the subsequent comments which are simply cheap shots aimed at the company - as a whole - because those comments are simply absurd, as the company as a whole is massive and far removed from the areas involved.

So when people start questioning the likes of HiSilicon, or the results of the imaging division or battery research - as you yourself did not long ago - it is frankly absurd too. I provide links. With all due respect you have simply limited yourself to telling people they are wrong but without offering any supporting information beyond your own knowledge. Would you accept it if I did the same?

Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies. There is zero reason to question results.

On the subject at hand, you are now diverging from the feature itself into the quality if the feature. I have no issue with that. It is a valid comment and I agree - to a degree - but that has nothing to do with my point, which is a completely different.

And if this feature really hasn't existed on an iPhone until now, the quality is irrevelant. Even just 'acceptable' results would be good enough (even if purely hit and miss), if the other option was not having the feature at all.

"Huawei is a private company but independently audited just like other companies." There is zero reason to question results." I would feel free to question the results of U.S. company audits, so, no, your statement isn't reassuring.

Huawei ultimately answers to the authoritarian Chinese government, so, yeah, plenty of reasons to question all things Huawei. 

As for Apple's Portrait Mode blur feature,

https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-iphone-portrait-mode-explained-2017-10

"But Apple was the first to popularize portrait mode, and now offers it on the iPhone 7 Plus, iPhone 8 Plus, and iPhone X."

Seems like you would have been aware of this feature that was released with the iPhone 7 Plus, that requires dual lenses, but you brought it up so that you could post your Huawei talking points. It's been improved in iOS 12, and has migrated to the single lens XR using focus points to determine depth. Whether Apple was first with faux bokeh is less important than that it was delivered fully baked when Apple popularized it with the iPhone 7.

How's that Mate 20 doing?.

By the time Huawei releases it, Apple will already have shipped 15 million iPhone's XS/XR, about the same number of units that that you state Huawei will sell in total for the P20 series. Seems like Huawei has a hill to climb to even meet Apple's unit sales this year.

Maybe next year.

Thanks for at least providing an answer.

As for Portrait mode. Your quote uses the word 'popularize', probably because Huawei had dual cameras months before Apple with its very own portrait mode. Apple's stayed in beta for a year. Not fully baked!

However, I appreciate the answer all the same. But is this article on 'Portait Mode' or something new regarding depth of field in a wider perspective?

That was part of my doubt. From the article:

"We've been dying to check out the new controllable aperture feature exclusive to these new phones"

That doesn't sound like an existing feature.

That's why I brought it up. It has nothing to do with 'Huawei talking points'.

As for the Mate 20, who knows!? LOL.

We'll have to wait and see.

Controllable synthetic aperture using a f/stop slider is the new feature.

If this had nothing to do with Huawei talking points, then why even bring it up? It's obvious that the improvements in usability and IQ for the feature are independent of "who came first", which was the point of your post. More to the point, it would have been exceedingly easy to so a bit of research such that you didn't come off as "partisan".

You said "wait and see" about the X, and state it was an anniversary model, and that it wasn't selling well, all of which were false. I have stated the it was the new design, which is true, that it was Apple's most successful single model, which is also true. It looks obvious that Apple has deprecated TouchID, and that the iPhone 8's will be the last current models with that feature, as well as the "chin".

So "wait and see" is just your standard denier of Apple success with the iPhone X. 

The Mate 20 is going to have fair winds for only a short time in the Android OS device market, then competition will hit from Samsung with a reported four S10 models, and the other Android OS device makers, then you will be back with, "but wait until the P30 comes out!". The Kirin 980 will be up against the Samsung Exynos 9880 and the Qualcomm 855, both at 7nm.

Why bring it up?

Why not read why I even bothered to explain exactly why I asked about this in the first place? I've repeated it twice in this thread already!

I did my 'research' and came up blank. It is clear that posters here didn't know either, hence the lack of answers. P

Or, that people know a troll when they see one and are sick of your predictable, boring song and dance. You’re worse than google-guy was.