That's the point, they can't. There are laws to protect consumers, if you choose not to use those laws to protect your interests then I don't see how you can blame someone else for your carelessness or apathy.
The bottom line is: THEY WILL REFUND ALL YOUR MONEY IF YOUR DEVICE IS FAULTY.
Exactly. The problem is who defines what faulty is. The consumer says when he holds his phone normally and the reception goes to pot the item is faulty. Apple disagrees and says there is no issue, buy a case. The way these disagreements get resolved is in court when one party sues. That's how the laws are used and enforced in civil matters like this. That's exactly what some people have done. That's what this thread is discussing. So you're happy.
No, you don't understand the purpose of "policy"... especially "written policy".
It is a way to boil-down many complex day-to-day decisions into codified rules, so that such decisions can be handled by front-line employees without the need to send each up the chain of command for higher-level approval-- it expedites "doing business".
But, like rules are made to be broken, policy is made to be overridden.
Done properly, a good policy will satisfy the bulk (let's say 90%) of the decisions quickly and efficiently to the satisfaction of the customer and the company, alike!
Then, when an unusual situation arises, that requires policy override, it is easily escalated to a higher-level where it can be resolved with the attention it deserves.
Any company who writes policy that is unfair to the customer (and will not adjust as necessary), will soon have no need for that policy-- as they will have no customers!.
.
Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.
The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!
Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.
The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!
Have you ever set policy for a corporation?
I have!
Apple's history indicates that they will satisfy their customers-- What's yours?
Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.
It sound like a material problem, conductive.
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
What's the difference? The call is still being dropped.
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.
That is indeed what it is. If it didn't do that it would be bouncing all over the place.
I hear it polls for signal strength about every 10 seconds. Since you have a phone with this issue you should be able to time it.
Because it completely and instantly stops a download it makes me think this could an issue with the TriQuint UMTS chip simply freaking out from the change in the antenna info, not that the signal has actually attenuated completely the instant you touch it. Does this happen on EDGE, which uses a different chip?
It's worth mentioning that prior to iPhone 4 antenna hysteria there have been many posts on dropped calls for both of your phones, as well as Nokia's, Blackberries etc.... Phones do drop calls. It's part of life.
As a 3G and iPhone 4 owner i'm more than satisfied. Connectivity ebbs and flows depending where i am but i'd say, hand on heart, my iP4 is better at connecting, or should i say more sensitive in area's where signal is poor. Meaning i can browse the internet on my iPhone 4 where i can't on my 3G. I think it's this sensitivity on the iP4 antenna which is part of the issue. So it's easier to get the iP4 to lose connection if you want to force it to, although in my experience i haven't had an issue holding the phone naturally.
So i'd say if you've had no real issues with connectivity with your 3G and 3GS then i'd doubt very much you'll have an issue with an iP4. It's actually better at connecting to poorer networks than either of those two phones. And that's my honest opinion based on humble experience.
By the way the camera, screen resolution, snappiness and video camera will impress you no end.
Agreed. I love the iPhone 4 and it does get better reception than any previous phone I have had with any carrier. Maybe if people removed their heads from their butts, they wouldn't have a reception problem. I am guessing most people commenting don't even own the iPhone 4 so they have no real experience with the phone.
That's. What I was about to say... It's been 1 freaking week. Those attorneys should be charged with malpractice!!!
Return the dam phone if you don't think it works.
Sure sure apple stock has gone up but as a creative, we are the ones suffering. Their usedd to be a time when the iMac was considered a toy or for the front desk of the asstitants ad, music, feature film studio. Now apple could care less about logic a decent headless non server mac pro like in the G5/4 days but alas, Apple has fallen prey to the consumer and the ProSumers are up a creak as the MacBooks, iMacs and MacBook pro to 15", are all non upgradable.
Terrible. Someday someone with a clue will be at the helm and there will be the consumer tv iPhone division and pro to semi pro division. Even Avid pro tools saw this coming and as a result bought m-audio but it seems apple could care less about games on the computer or those that stood by them pre-iPhone years.
"don't hold it that way" was a line in a private email to one person. He posted it and it exploded over the internet. There was nothing official about it.
Exactly ... we've all laughed about Steve's famously terse e-mails before, but now everyone is offended by this one. Also, Steve never used the word "wrong," which seems to be what's really triggering people.
As for their "silence" or "denial" of the issue ... it has been one week. I expect them to deal with this quickly, but everyone seems to expect an instantaneous reaction and that's just not realistic for a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation!
Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.
It sound like a material problem, conductive.
Maybe the handset will have to be trashed and remade with alternative materials. The iPhone 4 is this year's puck mouse !
This is how this is potentially fixable in software (speculated, but not confirmed to be using them, but I would bet my bottom dollar that they are).
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this:"
"Then don't do that".
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
Okay, gotta update this since I posted all over the thread.
Got my iPhone 4 yesterday. Activating it was a breeze. Immediately tested and replicated the reception/bar problem. Put the iPhone is a case (I always use one) and the problem went poof. No problem with my proximity sensor either. Battery life so far has been great. Off charge for almost 18 hours, with normal use and battery is at 75%.
12 plantifs. What about the other 4 million? It should be AT&T and their over priced service too.
TWELVE plaintiffs??? That's all they've got? Ambulance-chasers, indeed!
I'd say, for that class-action status to be granted, they'd need (for example) 1% of purchasors (speculating: not really 'my' point of law) to join the action...which means they need to recruit at least another 14,988 of Mama's precious darlings before this gets to be more than a very public hissy-fit.
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
"Touching" doesn't typically mean "deliberately poking with a finger tip", as one might do to test or demonstrate this problem. The only "touching" necessary is to have the bottom left corner of the phone gently resting against the palm of your hand, an entirely natural result of a very natural way of holding the phone in your left hand -- as depicted in many Apple promotional pictures for the phone.
I like the iPhone 4 enough that I'm still going to keep mine. I'm not one of the people screaming loudly about this issue since I can work around the problem and so much else about the phone is great. But the antenna issue really is a stupid engineering flaw, and telling people they're "holding it wrong" is a really lame excuse.
I'm not a fan of phone cases or rubber bumpers, especially ridiculously overpriced rubber bumpers, so I'll either make due either holding the phone in an awkward way or not worrying too much about 3G reception when I'm holding it more naturally.
Even if I was inclined to return the iPhone 4, I already sold my old 32GB 3GS on eBay, so unless I bought another used 3GS, all I could swap my iPhone 4 for would be an 8GB 3GS. I don't want buy used, settle for only 8GB, or switch to an entirely different brand of phone just to protest an admittedly annoying flaw. Even if I could get a new 32GB 3GS as an exchange, I'd hate giving up the improved screen and camera of the iPhone 4.
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
Abnormal in the sense of being a perfectly natural way to hold the phone. Anyone that says 1) they only ever hold their phone one way and/or 2) they never hold the phone in the new 'wrong' way is lying or confused.
This isn't a major problem in my mind. But some people make the most absurd arguments to try and rationalize the problem away. Saying that there is a wrong way to hold a phone is bad enough, but saying the 'wrong' way is abnormal is just stupid.
If Apple had said "If you experience this problem, change your grasp to one using just your thumb and index finger, each exactly one inch from the top of the phone and with no contact from any other part of your hand. Also avoid allowing the phone to touch your ear" these same people would say "Well, of course! Any other way is abnormal."
Comments
That's the point, they can't. There are laws to protect consumers, if you choose not to use those laws to protect your interests then I don't see how you can blame someone else for your carelessness or apathy.
The bottom line is: THEY WILL REFUND ALL YOUR MONEY IF YOUR DEVICE IS FAULTY.
Exactly. The problem is who defines what faulty is. The consumer says when he holds his phone normally and the reception goes to pot the item is faulty. Apple disagrees and says there is no issue, buy a case. The way these disagreements get resolved is in court when one party sues. That's how the laws are used and enforced in civil matters like this. That's exactly what some people have done. That's what this thread is discussing. So you're happy.
No, you don't understand the purpose of "policy"... especially "written policy".
It is a way to boil-down many complex day-to-day decisions into codified rules, so that such decisions can be handled by front-line employees without the need to send each up the chain of command for higher-level approval-- it expedites "doing business".
But, like rules are made to be broken, policy is made to be overridden.
Done properly, a good policy will satisfy the bulk (let's say 90%) of the decisions quickly and efficiently to the satisfaction of the customer and the company, alike!
Then, when an unusual situation arises, that requires policy override, it is easily escalated to a higher-level where it can be resolved with the attention it deserves.
Any company who writes policy that is unfair to the customer (and will not adjust as necessary), will soon have no need for that policy-- as they will have no customers!.
.
Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.
The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!
... Only trouble is, who will reimburse me for over 10% loss in my Apple stock this past week.
If you liked it at $270, you'll love it at $250
Perhaps it is you who does not understand. Written policy is written to cover the company's ass. If they had it printed before you bought your item, you're at their mercy to change it. The company can choose to go beyond their written policies, but not less than them. In this case, Apple is very likely to stick with their policy. If we see a slew of returns we'll find out.
The issue here is whether Apple intends to satisfy it's customers. So far all indications are an emphatic NO!!
Have you ever set policy for a corporation?
I have!
Apple's history indicates that they will satisfy their customers-- What's yours?
.
If you liked it at $270, you'll love it at $250
It's buyin' time again!
.
Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.
It sound like a material problem, conductive.
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
What's the difference? The call is still being dropped.
You're not going to die and possibly get other people killed when your iPhone drops a call.
Unless your call is matter of life and death
Except that everyone who is reporting dropped calls are reporting them dropping after several seconds. If your hand bridging the antenna actually blocked signal, why wouldn't the call drop right away?
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage. This happens no matter how many seconds it takes for the signal bars to register a downward revision in in strength. This is highly repeatable, and makes me think the bars are, indeed, a time-related moving average of signal strength. Stopping webpage downloads immediately indicates an immediate shutting down of the incoming signal when I bridge the gap with my finger or hand. I have repeated this on many occasions, and today demonstrated it merely one block from the ATT store here in Palo Alto, where the bars registered 5 bars prior to touching the antenna. In the store, I could not elicit this response, leading me to believe that you must have extraordinary cellphone tower strength (and the magical ATT elixer) to keep this from happening.
That is indeed what it is. If it didn't do that it would be bouncing all over the place.
I hear it polls for signal strength about every 10 seconds. Since you have a phone with this issue you should be able to time it.
Because it completely and instantly stops a download it makes me think this could an issue with the TriQuint UMTS chip simply freaking out from the change in the antenna info, not that the signal has actually attenuated completely the instant you touch it. Does this happen on EDGE, which uses a different chip?
It's worth mentioning that prior to iPhone 4 antenna hysteria there have been many posts on dropped calls for both of your phones, as well as Nokia's, Blackberries etc.... Phones do drop calls. It's part of life.
As a 3G and iPhone 4 owner i'm more than satisfied. Connectivity ebbs and flows depending where i am but i'd say, hand on heart, my iP4 is better at connecting, or should i say more sensitive in area's where signal is poor. Meaning i can browse the internet on my iPhone 4 where i can't on my 3G. I think it's this sensitivity on the iP4 antenna which is part of the issue. So it's easier to get the iP4 to lose connection if you want to force it to, although in my experience i haven't had an issue holding the phone naturally.
So i'd say if you've had no real issues with connectivity with your 3G and 3GS then i'd doubt very much you'll have an issue with an iP4. It's actually better at connecting to poorer networks than either of those two phones. And that's my honest opinion based on humble experience.
By the way the camera, screen resolution, snappiness and video camera will impress you no end.
Agreed. I love the iPhone 4 and it does get better reception than any previous phone I have had with any carrier. Maybe if people removed their heads from their butts, they wouldn't have a reception problem. I am guessing most people commenting don't even own the iPhone 4 so they have no real experience with the phone.
That's. What I was about to say... It's been 1 freaking week. Those attorneys should be charged with malpractice!!!
Return the dam phone if you don't think it works.
Sure sure apple stock has gone up but as a creative, we are the ones suffering. Their usedd to be a time when the iMac was considered a toy or for the front desk of the asstitants ad, music, feature film studio. Now apple could care less about logic a decent headless non server mac pro like in the G5/4 days but alas, Apple has fallen prey to the consumer and the ProSumers are up a creak as the MacBooks, iMacs and MacBook pro to 15", are all non upgradable.
Terrible. Someday someone with a clue will be at the helm and there will be the consumer tv iPhone division and pro to semi pro division. Even Avid pro tools saw this coming and as a result bought m-audio but it seems apple could care less about games on the computer or those that stood by them pre-iPhone years.
"don't hold it that way" was a line in a private email to one person. He posted it and it exploded over the internet. There was nothing official about it.
Exactly ... we've all laughed about Steve's famously terse e-mails before, but now everyone is offended by this one. Also, Steve never used the word "wrong," which seems to be what's really triggering people.
As for their "silence" or "denial" of the issue ... it has been one week. I expect them to deal with this quickly, but everyone seems to expect an instantaneous reaction and that's just not realistic for a multi-billion dollar, multi-national corporation!
Not sure how a software patch will resolve the problem, seems it is a hardware, or physical part of the phone, which reacts when 'touched', bit like touching an indoor aerial on your TV makes the picture go snowy.
It sound like a material problem, conductive.
Maybe the handset will have to be trashed and remade with alternative materials. The iPhone 4 is this year's puck mouse !
This is how this is potentially fixable in software (speculated, but not confirmed to be using them, but I would bet my bottom dollar that they are).
http://electronicdesign.com/article/...tiple-wir.aspx
I don't make that many calls to know for sure, but my issue is definitely with the 3G downloading of webpages. If I touch the bottom left, it IMMEDIATELY stops downloading, and freezes, even though the "download icon" at the top keeps twirling around. If I lift my finger, it immediately starts downloading the webpage.
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this:"
"Then don't do that".
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
Got my iPhone 4 yesterday. Activating it was a breeze. Immediately tested and replicated the reception/bar problem. Put the iPhone is a case (I always use one) and the problem went poof. No problem with my proximity sensor either. Battery life so far has been great. Off charge for almost 18 hours, with normal use and battery is at 75%.
Overall, exceptionally happy.
12 plantifs. What about the other 4 million? It should be AT&T and their over priced service too.
TWELVE plaintiffs??? That's all they've got? Ambulance-chasers, indeed!
I'd say, for that class-action status to be granted, they'd need (for example) 1% of purchasors (speculating: not really 'my' point of law) to join the action...which means they need to recruit at least another 14,988 of Mama's precious darlings before this gets to be more than a very public hissy-fit.
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
"Touching" doesn't typically mean "deliberately poking with a finger tip", as one might do to test or demonstrate this problem. The only "touching" necessary is to have the bottom left corner of the phone gently resting against the palm of your hand, an entirely natural result of a very natural way of holding the phone in your left hand -- as depicted in many Apple promotional pictures for the phone.
I like the iPhone 4 enough that I'm still going to keep mine. I'm not one of the people screaming loudly about this issue since I can work around the problem and so much else about the phone is great. But the antenna issue really is a stupid engineering flaw, and telling people they're "holding it wrong" is a really lame excuse.
I'm not a fan of phone cases or rubber bumpers, especially ridiculously overpriced rubber bumpers, so I'll either make due either holding the phone in an awkward way or not worrying too much about 3G reception when I'm holding it more naturally.
Even if I was inclined to return the iPhone 4, I already sold my old 32GB 3GS on eBay, so unless I bought another used 3GS, all I could swap my iPhone 4 for would be an 8GB 3GS. I don't want buy used, settle for only 8GB, or switch to an entirely different brand of phone just to protest an admittedly annoying flaw. Even if I could get a new 32GB 3GS as an exchange, I'd hate giving up the improved screen and camera of the iPhone 4.
Seriously, almost all of the complaints are from people who have to do something abnormal in order to get the problem to occur. Simply hold the phone without having your finger on the bottom left. Problem solved.
Abnormal in the sense of being a perfectly natural way to hold the phone. Anyone that says 1) they only ever hold their phone one way and/or 2) they never hold the phone in the new 'wrong' way is lying or confused.
This isn't a major problem in my mind. But some people make the most absurd arguments to try and rationalize the problem away. Saying that there is a wrong way to hold a phone is bad enough, but saying the 'wrong' way is abnormal is just stupid.
If Apple had said "If you experience this problem, change your grasp to one using just your thumb and index finger, each exactly one inch from the top of the phone and with no contact from any other part of your hand. Also avoid allowing the phone to touch your ear" these same people would say "Well, of course! Any other way is abnormal."
Pathetic, really.