As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
You have only heard one side of the story. You have idea if he really was the ?most qualified? or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position. Why was he terminated and who else at Apple has been treated this way by Katz manager(s) or Apple in general which shows a pattern of attitude toward the non-hipster crowd or whatever you want to call it.
PS: I agree with AdoniSMU that it?s believable, but that doesn?t mean it?s true.
I totally second that. This discussion cannot and should not be about this specific case. We have no insight and comments that in any way pass judgement one way or the other make us fools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nervus
Personally I manage in a large retail chain...
... I don't know anything about this case itself. But people do file complaints all the time. A lot of which are unfounded, and simply boil down to the employee not seeing their faults as being real issues. And their misunderstanding in thinking that in any non-union workplace that seniority counts for anything. Companies will always invest in the long term and people that are flexible, show a willingness to learn and adapt.
My guess is that you (one) would generally lean towards a younger candidate if all else was equal, fair or not. In a fast paced, high tech, creative environment, even more so. If the job in question was a warehouse manager or personnel manager young age might work against rather than for.
I worked with Michael at Millenia and I can say it was not his age that got him passed over for the position. It's easier to cry wolf than admit you're not as good at something as other people. He is being a cry baby.
As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
Welcome there, BigMac, but steady on a minute. From your quote I can't see that stonefree was begging for anything. He just stated a (fairly irrelevant) fact about his own life
As was mentioned in the article, an attempt at reconciliation was attempted. At such, Mr Katz would have seen any evidence against his performance (one would assume). If there were serious issues here, then it seems to me unlikely that he would pursue the claim.
Nobody on this forum has any idea what actually transpired, myself included. It seems odd to me, however, that if there were a real possibility of discrimination here, AAPL wouldn't have "reconciled" the case out of court and out of the media -- even if they thought it was probably frivolous.
Just my opinion, but the fact that this wasn't quietly taken care of at the first opportunity gives me the opposite impression it gives you -- it tells me it's more likely to be frivolous. Think what you want about AAPL, but I don't think they're stupid (nor their lawyers... nor their PR department).
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
'lurking for ages'???? says your join date was Dec 2010.....a little over 2 days?
I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.
You can't have a sense of entitlement, because you are not a baby boomer.
You would think that Apple would want an older employee in a market like Orlando with all the retirees, etc. Not that a younger person can't sell devices to an older person, just that an employee with certain characteristics might relate better in certain markets.
I wonder what a look at statistics overall for Apple store employees would bear out. What is the average age, etc versus their industry peers? I would guess most employees are well under 30 with management being well under 40.
Its also ironic how homogeneous (while trying to be the exact opposite) many Apple store employees are despite Apple's broad appeal and user base. In other words, do our employees look like and otherwise reflect our customers?
If I had to guess I'd say there is a certain type of person that Apple retail looks for. Just wonder whether their standards are documented or not.
I certainly cannot comment on the merits of this case -- there's just not enough information.
But aside from this case, I suspect we are about to see an avalanche of these types of lawsuits throughout all industries over the next few years. The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers are going to take the idea of "grumpy old man" to a whole new level.
Nice piece of self-centered grumpy generational ignorance. And the last word was changed to be kind toward your suspect motivation.
I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.
its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....
Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.
Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.
Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.
Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.
I'm surprised people are jumping to strong conclusions over this. Even if this fellow was more qualified (technically) and had more seniority, he could have had a bad attitude, been a poor communicator, or may have demonstrated any number of other reasons for management to avoid promoting him. While it seems possible that there may have been age discrimination, it seems far more likely that he simply was not qualified for other reasons.
I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.
APPLE doesn't do this.... discriminate based on age.... it's the local manager that does this. Apple (as far as anyone knows yet) hasn't sent a memo saying not to promote anyone over 60. Nor do I find it hard to believe that that mentality exists in the company.
It's just a stupid local manager who doesn't like 60 year old creatives... whatever they are..
this is probably being handled by legal and lawyers are such dicks... harsh, brash, and always CYA... so they aren't going to respond right away... hell, they are fighting much bigger legal battles...
don't be so quick to judge... this 60 yr old could be deceiving us all and could be out for money only...
You're 100% right. After that job I knew I would never work in retail again, ever. It was that awful. At first, it is the wonderful world of Apple. You have the managers constantly feeding you the "growing with Apple" jargon that you can always move up in the company and be with them forever blah, blah, blah. Then this kinda stuff happens (and what I wrote in my story). It was a joke who they would even higher most of the time. A lot of employees didn't even own Mac computers, or didn't even know how to use them if they did own them. It was all about numbers there, how much you sold, what you sold, hitting quotas, never doing that stuff again. It was a joke too how many managers there would be and how many would be on the clock at once. Then breathing down your neck all day if you sold enough AppleCare or MobileMe, etc.
OK... let's see... it's a SALES JOB!!! Hello McFly!!! If you can't be in a sales job mentality, then move on... it's not for you. It's not for a lot of people. But they are there to run a business. Maybe you should get a job at McDonald's or something.
its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....
I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).
I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.
I really can't speak for how this guy went about his business but my last two trips to the Apple Store I have been greeted by older gentleman. Nothing against older people but these two sales reps didn't know a computer from a calculator. Such reps are not what people want to deal with.
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.
Comments
As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
You have only heard one side of the story. You have idea if he really was the ?most qualified? or if those qualifications were enough to counter a poor attitude toward other employees and customers, or if he really expressed interest in the position. Why was he terminated and who else at Apple has been treated this way by Katz manager(s) or Apple in general which shows a pattern of attitude toward the non-hipster crowd or whatever you want to call it.
PS: I agree with AdoniSMU that it?s believable, but that doesn?t mean it?s true.
I totally second that. This discussion cannot and should not be about this specific case. We have no insight and comments that in any way pass judgement one way or the other make us fools.
Personally I manage in a large retail chain...
... I don't know anything about this case itself. But people do file complaints all the time. A lot of which are unfounded, and simply boil down to the employee not seeing their faults as being real issues. And their misunderstanding in thinking that in any non-union workplace that seniority counts for anything. Companies will always invest in the long term and people that are flexible, show a willingness to learn and adapt.
My guess is that you (one) would generally lean towards a younger candidate if all else was equal, fair or not. In a fast paced, high tech, creative environment, even more so. If the job in question was a warehouse manager or personnel manager young age might work against rather than for.
Or... did I miss the point?
As a young, white, Christian (non practicing) , heterosexual male I've never had the luxury of being able to claim discrimination any time I've been passed up for a job or promotion in favor of someone less qualified.
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
Welcome there, BigMac, but steady on a minute. From your quote I can't see that stonefree was begging for anything. He just stated a (fairly irrelevant) fact about his own life
Hope everything works out in the end!
As was mentioned in the article, an attempt at reconciliation was attempted. At such, Mr Katz would have seen any evidence against his performance (one would assume). If there were serious issues here, then it seems to me unlikely that he would pursue the claim.
Nobody on this forum has any idea what actually transpired, myself included. It seems odd to me, however, that if there were a real possibility of discrimination here, AAPL wouldn't have "reconciled" the case out of court and out of the media -- even if they thought it was probably frivolous.
Just my opinion, but the fact that this wasn't quietly taken care of at the first opportunity gives me the opposite impression it gives you -- it tells me it's more likely to be frivolous. Think what you want about AAPL, but I don't think they're stupid (nor their lawyers... nor their PR department).
All right I have been lurking for ages, but you are just begging for this one.
That's the most ignorant comment I have heard in a while. For the record so am I, but try living in Japan (Japanese only establishments) or for that matter somewhere where you are not in the majority. Only then will you understand how it feels like to be discriminated against.
'lurking for ages'???? says your join date was Dec 2010.....a little over 2 days?
I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.
You can't have a sense of entitlement, because you are not a baby boomer.
I wonder what a look at statistics overall for Apple store employees would bear out. What is the average age, etc versus their industry peers? I would guess most employees are well under 30 with management being well under 40.
Its also ironic how homogeneous (while trying to be the exact opposite) many Apple store employees are despite Apple's broad appeal and user base. In other words, do our employees look like and otherwise reflect our customers?
If I had to guess I'd say there is a certain type of person that Apple retail looks for. Just wonder whether their standards are documented or not.
I certainly cannot comment on the merits of this case -- there's just not enough information.
But aside from this case, I suspect we are about to see an avalanche of these types of lawsuits throughout all industries over the next few years. The most self-centered, "entitled" generation in the history of the world is now entering old age. The babyboomers are going to take the idea of "grumpy old man" to a whole new level.
Nice piece of self-centered grumpy generational ignorance. And the last word was changed to be kind toward your suspect motivation.
I worked as a Specialist for 2-3 years while teaching One-To-One lessons for 2 of those years. Kept getting promised the promotion to Creative and was teaching 8 lessons per day, while being paid as a Specialist. I was in my early 20's, in college for Film/Video Production, specialized in Final Cut Studio, Aperture, Logic, all the consumer apps too, everything... They gave the positions to "Older" employees with very little experience with Apple software and no knowledge whatsoever of Professional Apple Software. I ended up quitting. I started my own video training company for Apple software online, couldn't be happier. I was at the point though where the Store Manager told me I was the next Creative, and I got my schedule all set up with the Creative Team, went to Creative Training downtown Chicago, and then they all of sudden stopped talking to me about it, ignored me. When I would bring it up, another manager would talk to me and sort of try to talk me down saying "we didn't know you were still interested in it", etc, buncha crap like that. I trusted those managers. When they gave the positions to 2 older Specialists (late 40's/50's), less experienced, with less time working with the company than I, I quit and never looked back. Best decision I could have made looking back now. I should also mention that 6 months before finally being "promised" the next Creative spot, the store manager gave me a raise because I was a Specialist teaching 8 lessons of one-to-ones per day, but I NEVER GOT THE RAISE! I hope Steve Jobs reads this.
its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....
Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.
Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.
Thanks!
Well I am just sick of the sense of entitlement we have in the US. It's the "never had the luxury" bit that just smacks of it. Yes we thankfully have laws against discrimination against the US for minoriites and for good reason too. It just boogles the mind how some people think these things give minorities an advantage of some sort.
Yes, I joined because that comment really pushed me over. Have been reading Appleinsider for ages.
ah. my mistake.
I actually believe the guy. I don't believe someone goes through the trouble of contacting the EEOC for no reason at all. I don't believe the guys manager on any level. It's entirely believable that Apple would do something like this.
APPLE doesn't do this.... discriminate based on age.... it's the local manager that does this. Apple (as far as anyone knows yet) hasn't sent a memo saying not to promote anyone over 60. Nor do I find it hard to believe that that mentality exists in the company.
It's just a stupid local manager who doesn't like 60 year old creatives... whatever they are..
this is probably being handled by legal and lawyers are such dicks... harsh, brash, and always CYA... so they aren't going to respond right away... hell, they are fighting much bigger legal battles...
don't be so quick to judge... this 60 yr old could be deceiving us all and could be out for money only...
You're 100% right. After that job I knew I would never work in retail again, ever. It was that awful. At first, it is the wonderful world of Apple. You have the managers constantly feeding you the "growing with Apple" jargon that you can always move up in the company and be with them forever blah, blah, blah. Then this kinda stuff happens (and what I wrote in my story). It was a joke who they would even higher most of the time. A lot of employees didn't even own Mac computers, or didn't even know how to use them if they did own them. It was all about numbers there, how much you sold, what you sold, hitting quotas, never doing that stuff again. It was a joke too how many managers there would be and how many would be on the clock at once. Then breathing down your neck all day if you sold enough AppleCare or MobileMe, etc.
OK... let's see... it's a SALES JOB!!! Hello McFly!!! If you can't be in a sales job mentality, then move on... it's not for you. It's not for a lot of people. But they are there to run a business. Maybe you should get a job at McDonald's or something.
its retail. doesn't matter that its the 'wonderful' Apple. it is awful but when you are young you believe that such places are magical lol.
that a 60 year old even got hired is an amazing feat in itself....
I don't care what this guy says... when you reach 60, regardless of how fit you are, things slow down and you get more tired, less focused and generally burnt out after 4 days of 8 hour shifts (let alone 5 days)... especially when you compare yourself to a much younger person (unless they are really really unfit).
I can understand why they would pass on this guy for a more demanding job. Age discrimination? Yes... in a way... sure. Understandable that he was passed by? Yes... in my opinion. Fair? hard to say... I guess you'd have to study this on a case by case basis... if just one of those people that was hired instead of him was less fit, less focused and less able, then this guy will win his case.
I really can't speak for how this guy went about his business but my last two trips to the Apple Store I have been greeted by older gentleman. Nothing against older people but these two sales reps didn't know a computer from a calculator. Such reps are not what people want to deal with.
Hmmm, I could use a job. I'm 72, and I can assure you that I know a computer from a calculator. I know OS 10.6 pretty well (and 5 and 4, back to OS 8.6), and can shame most Mac users when it comes to actually doing stuff. Maybe I should apply for a spot at my local Apple store.