Hey, when the Great Satan is taking your black gold hand over fist, you find other ways to power your SCUD batteries.
I've known about the French reactor for a long time.
I wouldn't be surprised if certain American arms/technology companies sold stuff under the table to Iraq too. Was it Lockheed that just took a fine for selling guidance systems and support to China?
I wouldn't be surprised if certain American arms/technology companies sold stuff under the table to Iraq too. Was it Lockheed that just took a fine for selling guidance systems and support to China?
anyone else catch the piece no how France was selling the nuclear stuff to the Iraqi's before the Isralies blew it up? (years ago)
interesting show.
at the time the French were saying it was exclusively for "energy purposes"
'cause you know, Iraq has NO other cheap sources of energy or anything.
LOL while I laugh it is sad that it is not funny.
I think the world is going to have to work together to stop this dangerous proliferation of "dual" purpose items.
I think we can all point the finger all day long. What we must do from this day forward is indeed all work together to provide for a more peaceful future for our future generations. This is just but one world and we all must share it.
I hope we can learn to share it in a pragmatic and peaceful civilized way. Tall order yes but what is the alternative...
and back to your Israeli issue in Iraq what where the Israelis thinking taking those pre-emptive measures in those days. I guess they wanted innocent Iraqi people without electricity.... *cough* yeah that was the reason *cough*
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
Do you really believe what you post here? I have a hard time believing you believe what you just said...
the brownshirt comment was un-called for.
I hope one day you will reflect over the difference between mean-spirited rhetoric and the reality that some in the world want to make the world a place where our children can grow up in peace. The road is long ahead.
Do you really believe what you post here? I have a hard time believing you believe what you just said...
the brownshirt comment was un-called for.
I hope one day you will reflect over the difference between mean-spirited rhetoric and the reality that some in the world want to make the world a place where our children can grow up in peace. The road is long ahead.
With respect,
Fellowship
I believe every word I said with every fiber of my being.
Yes the brownshirt comment was uncalled for. Apologies.
It is frustating to me to truly feel like we are the bad guys in this one. I suppose I am in the lonely 30% who feels this way, but I see nothing but more pain and suffering coming our way because of this. I see this country becoming a new Israel and Iraq the new West Bank. I see us locked in perpetual warfare throughout the world. Mindless and unending retributions traded back and forth.
I truly hope I am wrong, but I fear that we may reap the whirlwind on this one.
You cannot bring moderation to a region plagued with violence by launching unilateral war. Whereas Afghanistan was justifiable, this is not, and the world knows it. And yet we refuse to acknowledge that there may be another point of view here.
I believe every word I said with every fiber of my being.
Yes the brownshirt comment was uncalled for. Apologies.
It is frustating to me to truly feel like we are the bad guys in this one. I suppose I am in the lonely 30% who feels this way, but I see nothing but more pain and suffering coming our way because of this. I see this country becoming a new Israel and Iraq the new West Bank. I see us locked in perpetual warfare throughout the world. Mindless and unending retributions traded back and forth.
I truly hope I am wrong, but I fear that we may reap the whirlwind on this one.
You cannot bring moderation to a region plagued with violence by launching unilateral war. Whereas Afghanistan was justifiable, this is not, and the world knows it. And yet we refuse to acknowledge that there may be another point of view here.
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Contained? If they were "contained", how was this 100 acre facility possible?
Quote:
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
recruiting device? You're saying this was all a big plot to get people to join the Army?
Quote:
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
self righteous crusade? Is this really a holy war to spread Christianity onto Iraq?
Quote:
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
By all accounts, al-Qaeda seems to be still on the run from US forces. Are you suggesting there is a great need for a 250,000 man occupation in Afganistan, instead of where they are now?
Quote:
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
12 years and 6 months is "knee jerk"? What pre-existing security do you speak of? The one where you stick your head in a hole in a ground and hope world conflicts just pass you by?
Quote:
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
Well I do have a few choice words, but they are more personal than political in nature.
Quote:
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
Nice speech, complete with trendy "hot button" terms. Sounds like you really have it figured out. Makes sense jimmac is bowing to your wisdom.
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Iraq does support terrorism (or do jews not count in your world?) and to assert they are "contained" is just a tactic to pretend that action is not needed.
Contained? If they were "contained", how was this 100 acre facility possible?
-----------------------------------------
Iraq and Saddam Hussein as an enemy was contained. He was and is not a threat and the al-Qaeda links the Administration have suggested are not real. Frankly the only threat he posed was one to Israel. To hell with going to war on their behalf. Our anti-terror chief official in the White House just quit because the distraction of this war has made his job more difficult.
---------------------------------
recruiting device? You're saying this was all a big plot to get people to join the Army?
---------------------------------------
No, recruiting into terror groups. This war makes quite a nice statement, doesn't it?
--------------------------------------
self righteous crusade? Is this really a holy war to spread Christianity onto Iraq?
------------------------------------
No, this is a self-righteous crusade to bring our ideas of peace and democracy to the world. Nevermind that the dischord and tyranny is very much our doing in that region i.e. creating Saddam in the first place.
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By all accounts, al-Qaeda seems to be still on the run from US forces. Are you suggesting there is a great need for a 250,000 man occupation in Afganistan, instead of where they are now?
-------------------------------------------------
Quite frankly at this point it is too late. The decision was made and the ramifications of pulling them out would be devastating. Now they must get the job done quick. That still doesn't justify the decision to go in as legal. Furthermore, this doesn't remove us from our obligations to Afghanistan. We recently hired out a private firm to handle security there! It's sad that we have such short memories and I will not be surprised if that country falls again to madmen.
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12 years and 6 months is "knee jerk"? What pre-existing security do you speak of? The one where you stick your head in a hole in a ground and hope world conflicts just pass you by?
-------------------------------------------------
Funny how for 12 years we never cared. Funny how we never pushed this issue at all for 12 years. Had we been as adamant, maybe this "problem" wouldn't exist. Maybe war would not be neccesary. It is typically American (and I am one, so I can say this) to demand results after years of neglect, and demand them immediately.
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Well I do have a few choice words, but they are more personal than political in nature.
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cute.
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Nice speech, complete with trendy "hot button" terms. Sounds like you really have it figured out. Makes sense jimmac is bowing to your wisdom. [/B]
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Well maybe if you were able to read any of what I said instead of having a typical knee-jerk backlash, you would understand what I am saying. But of course, I'm sure you are right. It is so typical of your ilk to dismiss what I say as trendy. Give it up and stop pretending like you're some great patriot because you unquestioningly accept our policy. Dissent is what the country was built on. I have nothing more to say on this.
I swear it, i will fight until death any countrie who will try to catch my camenbert and my wine.
On a more serious note.
80 % of the population support Chirac views. I know it's low compared to Saddam who was elected at 100 %, but it's quite good if we compared it with the spanish leader.
Iraq and Saddam Hussein as an enemy was contained. He was and is not a threat and the al-Qaeda links the Administration have suggested are not real.
You don't know they weren't real, you have only a belief that weren't real. Regardless, if this is a chemical weapons producing plant...exactly how hard do you think it would be to smiggle some into the US? Containment wasn't working...if you can't get that through your had, you are being willfully blind.
Quote:
Originally posted by robotkiller
No, this is a self-righteous crusade to bring our ideas of peace and democracy to the world. Nevermind that the dischord and tyranny is very much our doing in that region i.e. creating Saddam in the first place.
So, even if you believe that the US is responsible for all the badness over there, that then rules out the US trying to fix the problem? That is exactly what you wrote, that the US made the problem, so the US shouldn't try and bring peace and democracy. Seems an odd reason not to bring peace and democracy.
Quote:
Originally posted by robotkiller
Funny how for 12 years we never cared. Funny how we never pushed this issue at all for 12 years. Had we been as adamant, maybe this "problem" wouldn't exist. Maybe war would not be neccesary. It is typically American (and I am one, so I can say this) to demand results after years of neglect, and demand them immediately.
Well, just some Americans can say this. The others, the ones who actually pay attention, will know that the US at least, didn't ignore it for 12 years. They tried to push for a tougher stance by the UN, stronger enforcement etc, but European parts of the UN pushed the other way, so stalemate, nothing happens. Then something happened, you may have heard of it, it was 9/11. It changed the position the US had taken for 12 years, where instead of allowing the UN to pussyfoot around Iraq, they wanted to force compliance. So, funny how the 12 years of inaction was the UN's fault. Funny how you don't realize that 9/11 might change US willingness to cintinue with the charade of the last 12 years. Funny how some people don't clue in.
Quote:
Originally posted by robotkiller
Well maybe if you were able to read any of what I said instead of having a typical knee-jerk backlash, you would understand what I am saying. But of course, I'm sure you are right. It is so typical of your ilk to dismiss what I say as trendy. Give it up and stop pretending like you're some great patriot because you unquestioningly accept our policy. Dissent is what the country was built on. I have nothing more to say on this.
You don't know they weren't real, you have only a belief that weren't real. Regardless, if this is a chemical weapons producing plant...exactly how hard do you think it would be to smiggle some into the US? Containment wasn't working...if you can't get that through your had, you are being willfully blind.
So, even if you believe that the US is responsible for all the badness over there, that then rules out the US trying to fix the problem? That is exactly what you wrote, that the US made the problem, so the US shouldn't try and bring peace and democracy. Seems an odd reason not to bring peace and democracy.
Well, just some Americans can say this. The others, the ones who actually pay attention, will know that the US at least, didn't ignore it for 12 years. They tried to push for a tougher stance by the UN, stronger enforcement etc, but European parts of the UN pushed the other way, so stalemate, nothing happens. Then something happened, you may have heard of it, it was 9/11. It changed the position the US had taken for 12 years, where instead of allowing the UN to pussyfoot around Iraq, they wanted to force compliance. So, funny how the 12 years of inaction was the UN's fault. Funny how you don't realize that 9/11 might change US willingness to cintinue with the charade of the last 12 years. Funny how some people don't clue in.
Trendy..no, just wrong.
1) Explain how containment is not working. Please illucidate your inside knowledge as to the proliferation of Iraqi weapons to terrorist organisations. The reality is that this threat has NOT been proven. This is a pre-emptive war based on a theory. Unfortunately that theory can be applied to dozens of countries, including China. You wanna go to war with them??
2) No the US is not to blame for ALL the badness. But we did play a role in it when we decided to endorse Saddam Hussein. If it didn't work then, what makes you believe that this country suddenly has become enlightened nation builders?
3)What the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Being tough on terrorism means waging war for very ambiguous reasons? Can't you see that this idiotic knee jerk violence has failed miserably for Israel? At least the Taliban was complicit in 9/11 and thus responsible. Hussein, as evil as he is, was not involved. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not. Sure, get tough on Iraq - but we don't need to be running around wagging our d*cks in the air. Be intelligent about the targets we choose. Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare.
4)No, you're wrong. But as I said before, all kidding aside, I truly hope and pray that I am wrong.
I swear it, i will fight until death any countrie who will try to catch my camenbert and my wine.
Lucky for you I prefer Mexican and Italian food. But I might be willing to invade your country provided that I can cash some Chiraqi welfarm checks for some of them purty Euros. I'd also drink your wine and then bop you on the head with the bottle. Then I'd burn all of your Jerry Lewis videos.
Quote:
On a more serious note.
80 % of the population support Chirac views. I know it's low compared to Saddam who was elected at 100 %, but it's quite good if we compared it with the spanish leader.
Well Saddam does have better hair than Chiraq. That may explain why he received a larger majority.
What did Chirac poll in the first round of elections? I thought that it was something like 25% but I'm sure that you can find the correct figure. Not exactly a stirring endorsement if the figure is in that range. My impression is that Chirac was not particularly popular up through 4 months ago when he want anti-hyperpower. I don't view the 80% figure as significant in any way given that his opponent was arguably an extremist and still got 17% of the vote.
1) Explain how containment is not working. Please illucidate your inside knowledge as to the proliferation of Iraqi weapons to terrorist organisations. The reality is that this threat has NOT been proven. This is a pre-emptive war based on a theory. Unfortunately that theory can be applied to dozens of countries, including China. You wanna go to war with them??
Containment hasn't worked. It is a simple fact. Even the UN stated that Iraq was in breech of their agreed upon ceasefire and various resolutions. It is a simple fact. How is it that Iraq has missle to launch into Kuwait? How is it Iraq has new nightvision equipment, new antitank weapons and new electronics jamming equipment? All are banned from being sold to them, yet they have them? Is that containment at work? Simple fact, it is not working, even acording to the UN..that's why 1441 was passed, though it didn't seem to produce a solution for the failure of containment.
Now, it Saddam was able to produce and/or hide chem and bio weapons, how hard do you think it would be to get it out of Iraq and into the US or other countries, given that arms were so easily smuggled into Iraq?
Tell me again how containment was working?
Quote:
Originally posted by robotkiller
2) No the US is not to blame for ALL the badness. But we did play a role in it when we decided to endorse Saddam Hussein. If it didn't work then, what makes you believe that this country suddenly has become enlightened nation builders?
They've done it before. Besides, you argument was that the US shouldn't tryo to bring peace and democracy, because of the prior, less than stellar US involvment in the region. Past policy doesn't seem to be a good reason not to try.
Quote:
Originally posted by robotkiller
3)What the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Being tough on terrorism means waging war for very ambiguous reasons? Can't you see that this idiotic knee jerk violence has failed miserably for Israel? At least the Taliban was complicit in 9/11 and thus responsible. Hussein, as evil as he is, was not involved. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not. Sure, get tough on Iraq - but we don't need to be running around wagging our d*cks in the air. Be intelligent about the targets we choose. Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare.
You asked what had changed to make the US pay attention to Iraq after 12 years of ignoring them. The answer was that the US didn't ignore them for 12 years, the UN led by Europe ignored them for 12 years. The US wanted action then and 9/11 caused them to rethink allowing the UN to ignore Iraq.
As far as your statement of "Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare. " well, Afganistan seemed more like pretty full out warfare than convert or insidious.
I don't think the admin tried to pin involvement in 9/11 on Saddam. They tried to show that after 9/11 and the Afgan invasion, Saddam provided support to Al Queda. Some of the publically released info was refuted, but that doens't mean all the intelligence they gathered regarding a link was false.
It can't believe that you are so evil. It's frightening.
For Chirac i was refering to a poll about the Iraqi war and his position.
Now for the election, you are right with the 25 %
The 80 % of vote in the second turn was more a result of a strange failure of the left, who wanted to punish Jospin for not having making a sufficiant left-winged policie. As a result they voted for small candidates of the left in the first turn (to "punish" Jospin : a warning vote) , thinking that they will vote for him in the second turn. Unfortunately, they punish themselves, because no-one represented the left at the second turn.
The presence of LePen in the second turn, was also the result of the fear of insecurity in France, a battle horse's subject of Le Pen, totally lacking in the campaign of Jospin.
These two phenomena produced the strangest Vote for presidential for the last 50 years in France. I think that voters will think harder the next time before voting for small candidates who don't have any chances to win the elections.
Containment hasn't worked. It is a simple fact. Even the UN stated that Iraq was in breech of their agreed upon ceasefire and various resolutions. It is a simple fact. How is it that Iraq has missle to launch into Kuwait? How is it Iraq has new nightvision equipment, new antitank weapons and new electronics jamming equipment? All are banned from being sold to them, yet they have them? Is that containment at work? Simple fact, it is not working, even acording to the UN..that's why 1441 was passed, though it didn't seem to produce a solution for the failure of containment.
Now, it Saddam was able to produce and/or hide chem and bio weapons, how hard do you think it would be to get it out of Iraq and into the US or other countries, given that arms were so easily smuggled into Iraq?
Tell me again how containment was working?
They've done it before. Besides, you argument was that the US shouldn't tryo to bring peace and democracy, because of the prior, less than stellar US involvment in the region. Past policy doesn't seem to be a good reason not to try.
You asked what had changed to make the US pay attention to Iraq after 12 years of ignoring them. The answer was that the US didn't ignore them for 12 years, the UN led by Europe ignored them for 12 years. The US wanted action then and 9/11 caused them to rethink allowing the UN to ignore Iraq.
As far as your statement of "Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare. " well, Afganistan seemed more like pretty full out warfare than convert or insidious.
I don't think the admin tried to pin involvement in 9/11 on Saddam. They tried to show that after 9/11 and the Afgan invasion, Saddam provided support to Al Queda. Some of the publically released info was refuted, but that doens't mean all the intelligence they gathered regarding a link was false.
Has Iraq attacked us recently? Has Iraq ever been on the radar before a few months ago? Several of Bush's cabinet have had designs on regime change in Iraq far prior to 9/11. The WTC attacks were a convenient way to fulfill that agenda. And you still have not given me the terrorist links and precedent fo proliferation to back your claims. Again, this all THEORY that can be applied to DOZENS of countries. Are you upset about Iraq's military capability? Yell at France/Germany/Russia, the countries who subsidized the bastard. Or better yet, let's invade them too, right?
The fact is that only recently has inspections been started in earnest. Was that a mistake? Yes, I believe so, but that doesn't change the fact that we are grossly impatient for results when the process has only just begun. Nevermind that our brinksmanship has made this war an inevitability from the beginning
As I stated before, Afghanistan was a whole different ball of wax. They, being complicit in 9/11, attacked us. We were acting in self-defence which necessitated regime change. I am not against such action, when that action is justified. But now al-Qaeda lies in sleeper cells throughout the world.
Moderate reform in Iran was around the corner. With a new US led puppet state in Iraq, the hardliners will prevail. Fanatacism will rise to even greater heights. Do we need that headache? Do you honestly believe we are going to have a democracy in Iraq anytime soon? With free elections, some crazy anti-West radical would be sure to rise. No, this new Iraqi regime will be spoon fed by the US and the rest of the Middle East will react predictably.
It's all moot, it's too late to turn back now. At this point we must win the war quickly and somehow figure a way to involve the Middle East in some sort of constructive means of building a legitmate Iraq. It's a situation we shouldn't be in, and I'm sure we will f*ck it up, but here's to hoping that it all magically works out.
Comments
interesting show.
at the time the French were saying it was exclusively for "energy purposes"
'cause you know, Iraq has NO other cheap sources of energy or anything.
I've known about the French reactor for a long time.
I wouldn't be surprised if certain American arms/technology companies sold stuff under the table to Iraq too. Was it Lockheed that just took a fine for selling guidance systems and support to China?
Originally posted by BuonRotto
I wouldn't be surprised if certain American arms/technology companies sold stuff under the table to Iraq too. Was it Lockheed that just took a fine for selling guidance systems and support to China?
Boeing and Hughes.
Originally posted by alcimedes
anyone else catch the piece no how France was selling the nuclear stuff to the Iraqi's before the Isralies blew it up? (years ago)
interesting show.
at the time the French were saying it was exclusively for "energy purposes"
'cause you know, Iraq has NO other cheap sources of energy or anything.
LOL while I laugh it is sad that it is not funny.
I think the world is going to have to work together to stop this dangerous proliferation of "dual" purpose items.
I think we can all point the finger all day long. What we must do from this day forward is indeed all work together to provide for a more peaceful future for our future generations. This is just but one world and we all must share it.
I hope we can learn to share it in a pragmatic and peaceful civilized way. Tall order yes but what is the alternative...
and back to your Israeli issue in Iraq what where the Israelis thinking taking those pre-emptive measures in those days. I guess they wanted innocent Iraqi people without electricity.... *cough* yeah that was the reason *cough*
Fellowship
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
Originally posted by robotkiller
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
Do you really believe what you post here? I have a hard time believing you believe what you just said...
the brownshirt comment was un-called for.
I hope one day you will reflect over the difference between mean-spirited rhetoric and the reality that some in the world want to make the world a place where our children can grow up in peace. The road is long ahead.
With respect,
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Do you really believe what you post here? I have a hard time believing you believe what you just said...
the brownshirt comment was un-called for.
I hope one day you will reflect over the difference between mean-spirited rhetoric and the reality that some in the world want to make the world a place where our children can grow up in peace. The road is long ahead.
With respect,
Fellowship
I believe every word I said with every fiber of my being.
Yes the brownshirt comment was uncalled for. Apologies.
It is frustating to me to truly feel like we are the bad guys in this one. I suppose I am in the lonely 30% who feels this way, but I see nothing but more pain and suffering coming our way because of this. I see this country becoming a new Israel and Iraq the new West Bank. I see us locked in perpetual warfare throughout the world. Mindless and unending retributions traded back and forth.
I truly hope I am wrong, but I fear that we may reap the whirlwind on this one.
You cannot bring moderation to a region plagued with violence by launching unilateral war. Whereas Afghanistan was justifiable, this is not, and the world knows it. And yet we refuse to acknowledge that there may be another point of view here.
Originally posted by robotkiller
I believe every word I said with every fiber of my being.
Yes the brownshirt comment was uncalled for. Apologies.
It is frustating to me to truly feel like we are the bad guys in this one. I suppose I am in the lonely 30% who feels this way, but I see nothing but more pain and suffering coming our way because of this. I see this country becoming a new Israel and Iraq the new West Bank. I see us locked in perpetual warfare throughout the world. Mindless and unending retributions traded back and forth.
I truly hope I am wrong, but I fear that we may reap the whirlwind on this one.
You cannot bring moderation to a region plagued with violence by launching unilateral war. Whereas Afghanistan was justifiable, this is not, and the world knows it. And yet we refuse to acknowledge that there may be another point of view here.
Yup!
Originally posted by robotkiller
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Contained? If they were "contained", how was this 100 acre facility possible?
Quote:
Forget the incredible recruiting device this silly war has become
recruiting device? You're saying this was all a big plot to get people to join the Army?
Quote:
Forget the arrogance with which we've tossed aside our allies as we pursue this self righteous crusade.
self righteous crusade? Is this really a holy war to spread Christianity onto Iraq?
Quote:
Forget the fact that this war has completely diverted intel, funding and political attention from the *real* war on terrorism, i.e. al-Qaeda, and refocused it as a ridiculous war against a paper tiger.
By all accounts, al-Qaeda seems to be still on the run from US forces. Are you suggesting there is a great need for a 250,000 man occupation in Afganistan, instead of where they are now?
Quote:
I'm sure all the pro-war brownshirts are loving this pyrrhic victory - we have sacrificed *everything* in a knee jerk exercise that does *everything* to undermine our security.
12 years and 6 months is "knee jerk"? What pre-existing security do you speak of? The one where you stick your head in a hole in a ground and hope world conflicts just pass you by?
Quote:
Of course, I'm sure you will all tell me I'm an unamerican liberal.
Well I do have a few choice words, but they are more personal than political in nature.
Quote:
...sighing as I watch this great country become an unthinking, violent joke.
Nice speech, complete with trendy "hot button" terms. Sounds like you really have it figured out.
Originally posted by robotkiller
YAY! We found a chemical plant!! NOW the world is a safer place!
Boy, do I feel safer.
Forget the price we paid to destroy this worthless and contained enemy with no links to terrorism.
Iraq does support terrorism (or do jews not count in your world?) and to assert they are "contained" is just a tactic to pretend that action is not needed.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Contained? If they were "contained", how was this 100 acre facility possible?
-----------------------------------------
Iraq and Saddam Hussein as an enemy was contained. He was and is not a threat and the al-Qaeda links the Administration have suggested are not real. Frankly the only threat he posed was one to Israel. To hell with going to war on their behalf. Our anti-terror chief official in the White House just quit because the distraction of this war has made his job more difficult.
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recruiting device? You're saying this was all a big plot to get people to join the Army?
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No, recruiting into terror groups. This war makes quite a nice statement, doesn't it?
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self righteous crusade? Is this really a holy war to spread Christianity onto Iraq?
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No, this is a self-righteous crusade to bring our ideas of peace and democracy to the world. Nevermind that the dischord and tyranny is very much our doing in that region i.e. creating Saddam in the first place.
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By all accounts, al-Qaeda seems to be still on the run from US forces. Are you suggesting there is a great need for a 250,000 man occupation in Afganistan, instead of where they are now?
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Quite frankly at this point it is too late. The decision was made and the ramifications of pulling them out would be devastating. Now they must get the job done quick. That still doesn't justify the decision to go in as legal. Furthermore, this doesn't remove us from our obligations to Afghanistan. We recently hired out a private firm to handle security there! It's sad that we have such short memories and I will not be surprised if that country falls again to madmen.
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12 years and 6 months is "knee jerk"? What pre-existing security do you speak of? The one where you stick your head in a hole in a ground and hope world conflicts just pass you by?
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Funny how for 12 years we never cared. Funny how we never pushed this issue at all for 12 years. Had we been as adamant, maybe this "problem" wouldn't exist. Maybe war would not be neccesary. It is typically American (and I am one, so I can say this) to demand results after years of neglect, and demand them immediately.
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Well I do have a few choice words, but they are more personal than political in nature.
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cute.
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Nice speech, complete with trendy "hot button" terms. Sounds like you really have it figured out.
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Well maybe if you were able to read any of what I said instead of having a typical knee-jerk backlash, you would understand what I am saying. But of course, I'm sure you are right. It is so typical of your ilk to dismiss what I say as trendy.
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I Support The Liberation Of The Chiraqi People - France Must Be Freed As Soon As Possible.
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Do you want to invade France ?
I swear it, i will fight until death any countrie who will try to catch my camenbert and my wine.
On a more serious note.
80 % of the population support Chirac views. I know it's low compared to Saddam who was elected at 100 %, but it's quite good if we compared it with the spanish leader.
Originally posted by robotkiller
Iraq and Saddam Hussein as an enemy was contained. He was and is not a threat and the al-Qaeda links the Administration have suggested are not real.
You don't know they weren't real, you have only a belief that weren't real. Regardless, if this is a chemical weapons producing plant...exactly how hard do you think it would be to smiggle some into the US? Containment wasn't working...if you can't get that through your had, you are being willfully blind.
Originally posted by robotkiller
No, this is a self-righteous crusade to bring our ideas of peace and democracy to the world. Nevermind that the dischord and tyranny is very much our doing in that region i.e. creating Saddam in the first place.
So, even if you believe that the US is responsible for all the badness over there, that then rules out the US trying to fix the problem? That is exactly what you wrote, that the US made the problem, so the US shouldn't try and bring peace and democracy. Seems an odd reason not to bring peace and democracy.
Originally posted by robotkiller
Funny how for 12 years we never cared. Funny how we never pushed this issue at all for 12 years. Had we been as adamant, maybe this "problem" wouldn't exist. Maybe war would not be neccesary. It is typically American (and I am one, so I can say this) to demand results after years of neglect, and demand them immediately.
Well, just some Americans can say this. The others, the ones who actually pay attention, will know that the US at least, didn't ignore it for 12 years. They tried to push for a tougher stance by the UN, stronger enforcement etc, but European parts of the UN pushed the other way, so stalemate, nothing happens. Then something happened, you may have heard of it, it was 9/11. It changed the position the US had taken for 12 years, where instead of allowing the UN to pussyfoot around Iraq, they wanted to force compliance. So, funny how the 12 years of inaction was the UN's fault. Funny how you don't realize that 9/11 might change US willingness to cintinue with the charade of the last 12 years. Funny how some people don't clue in.
Originally posted by robotkiller
Well maybe if you were able to read any of what I said instead of having a typical knee-jerk backlash, you would understand what I am saying. But of course, I'm sure you are right. It is so typical of your ilk to dismiss what I say as trendy. Give it up and stop pretending like you're some great patriot because you unquestioningly accept our policy. Dissent is what the country was built on. I have nothing more to say on this.
Trendy..no, just wrong.
Originally posted by Tulkas
You don't know they weren't real, you have only a belief that weren't real. Regardless, if this is a chemical weapons producing plant...exactly how hard do you think it would be to smiggle some into the US? Containment wasn't working...if you can't get that through your had, you are being willfully blind.
So, even if you believe that the US is responsible for all the badness over there, that then rules out the US trying to fix the problem? That is exactly what you wrote, that the US made the problem, so the US shouldn't try and bring peace and democracy. Seems an odd reason not to bring peace and democracy.
Well, just some Americans can say this. The others, the ones who actually pay attention, will know that the US at least, didn't ignore it for 12 years. They tried to push for a tougher stance by the UN, stronger enforcement etc, but European parts of the UN pushed the other way, so stalemate, nothing happens. Then something happened, you may have heard of it, it was 9/11. It changed the position the US had taken for 12 years, where instead of allowing the UN to pussyfoot around Iraq, they wanted to force compliance. So, funny how the 12 years of inaction was the UN's fault. Funny how you don't realize that 9/11 might change US willingness to cintinue with the charade of the last 12 years. Funny how some people don't clue in.
Trendy..no, just wrong.
1) Explain how containment is not working. Please illucidate your inside knowledge as to the proliferation of Iraqi weapons to terrorist organisations. The reality is that this threat has NOT been proven. This is a pre-emptive war based on a theory. Unfortunately that theory can be applied to dozens of countries, including China. You wanna go to war with them??
2) No the US is not to blame for ALL the badness. But we did play a role in it when we decided to endorse Saddam Hussein. If it didn't work then, what makes you believe that this country suddenly has become enlightened nation builders?
3)What the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Being tough on terrorism means waging war for very ambiguous reasons? Can't you see that this idiotic knee jerk violence has failed miserably for Israel? At least the Taliban was complicit in 9/11 and thus responsible. Hussein, as evil as he is, was not involved. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not. Sure, get tough on Iraq - but we don't need to be running around wagging our d*cks in the air. Be intelligent about the targets we choose. Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare.
4)No, you're wrong.
I swear it, i will fight until death any countrie who will try to catch my camenbert and my wine.
Lucky for you I prefer Mexican and Italian food. But I might be willing to invade your country provided that I can cash some Chiraqi welfarm checks for some of them purty Euros. I'd also drink your wine and then bop you on the head with the bottle. Then I'd burn all of your Jerry Lewis videos.
On a more serious note.
80 % of the population support Chirac views. I know it's low compared to Saddam who was elected at 100 %, but it's quite good if we compared it with the spanish leader.
Well Saddam does have better hair than Chiraq. That may explain why he received a larger majority.
What did Chirac poll in the first round of elections? I thought that it was something like 25% but I'm sure that you can find the correct figure. Not exactly a stirring endorsement if the figure is in that range. My impression is that Chirac was not particularly popular up through 4 months ago when he want anti-hyperpower. I don't view the 80% figure as significant in any way given that his opponent was arguably an extremist and still got 17% of the vote.
Originally posted by robotkiller
1) Explain how containment is not working. Please illucidate your inside knowledge as to the proliferation of Iraqi weapons to terrorist organisations. The reality is that this threat has NOT been proven. This is a pre-emptive war based on a theory. Unfortunately that theory can be applied to dozens of countries, including China. You wanna go to war with them??
Containment hasn't worked. It is a simple fact. Even the UN stated that Iraq was in breech of their agreed upon ceasefire and various resolutions. It is a simple fact. How is it that Iraq has missle to launch into Kuwait? How is it Iraq has new nightvision equipment, new antitank weapons and new electronics jamming equipment? All are banned from being sold to them, yet they have them? Is that containment at work? Simple fact, it is not working, even acording to the UN..that's why 1441 was passed, though it didn't seem to produce a solution for the failure of containment.
Now, it Saddam was able to produce and/or hide chem and bio weapons, how hard do you think it would be to get it out of Iraq and into the US or other countries, given that arms were so easily smuggled into Iraq?
Tell me again how containment was working?
Originally posted by robotkiller
2) No the US is not to blame for ALL the badness. But we did play a role in it when we decided to endorse Saddam Hussein. If it didn't work then, what makes you believe that this country suddenly has become enlightened nation builders?
They've done it before. Besides, you argument was that the US shouldn't tryo to bring peace and democracy, because of the prior, less than stellar US involvment in the region. Past policy doesn't seem to be a good reason not to try.
Originally posted by robotkiller
3)What the hell does 9/11 have to do with Iraq? Being tough on terrorism means waging war for very ambiguous reasons? Can't you see that this idiotic knee jerk violence has failed miserably for Israel? At least the Taliban was complicit in 9/11 and thus responsible. Hussein, as evil as he is, was not involved. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not. Sure, get tough on Iraq - but we don't need to be running around wagging our d*cks in the air. Be intelligent about the targets we choose. Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare.
You asked what had changed to make the US pay attention to Iraq after 12 years of ignoring them. The answer was that the US didn't ignore them for 12 years, the UN led by Europe ignored them for 12 years. The US wanted action then and 9/11 caused them to rethink allowing the UN to ignore Iraq.
As far as your statement of "Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare. " well, Afganistan seemed more like pretty full out warfare than convert or insidious.
I don't think the admin tried to pin involvement in 9/11 on Saddam. They tried to show that after 9/11 and the Afgan invasion, Saddam provided support to Al Queda. Some of the publically released info was refuted, but that doens't mean all the intelligence they gathered regarding a link was false.
Originally posted by ColanderOfDeath
. Then I'd burn all of your Jerry Lewis videos.
NOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!
It can't believe that you are so evil. It's frightening.
For Chirac i was refering to a poll about the Iraqi war and his position.
Now for the election, you are right with the 25 %
The 80 % of vote in the second turn was more a result of a strange failure of the left, who wanted to punish Jospin for not having making a sufficiant left-winged policie. As a result they voted for small candidates of the left in the first turn (to "punish" Jospin : a warning vote) , thinking that they will vote for him in the second turn. Unfortunately, they punish themselves, because no-one represented the left at the second turn.
The presence of LePen in the second turn, was also the result of the fear of insecurity in France, a battle horse's subject of Le Pen, totally lacking in the campaign of Jospin.
These two phenomena produced the strangest Vote for presidential for the last 50 years in France. I think that voters will think harder the next time before voting for small candidates who don't have any chances to win the elections.
Originally posted by Tulkas
Containment hasn't worked. It is a simple fact. Even the UN stated that Iraq was in breech of their agreed upon ceasefire and various resolutions. It is a simple fact. How is it that Iraq has missle to launch into Kuwait? How is it Iraq has new nightvision equipment, new antitank weapons and new electronics jamming equipment? All are banned from being sold to them, yet they have them? Is that containment at work? Simple fact, it is not working, even acording to the UN..that's why 1441 was passed, though it didn't seem to produce a solution for the failure of containment.
Now, it Saddam was able to produce and/or hide chem and bio weapons, how hard do you think it would be to get it out of Iraq and into the US or other countries, given that arms were so easily smuggled into Iraq?
Tell me again how containment was working?
They've done it before. Besides, you argument was that the US shouldn't tryo to bring peace and democracy, because of the prior, less than stellar US involvment in the region. Past policy doesn't seem to be a good reason not to try.
You asked what had changed to make the US pay attention to Iraq after 12 years of ignoring them. The answer was that the US didn't ignore them for 12 years, the UN led by Europe ignored them for 12 years. The US wanted action then and 9/11 caused them to rethink allowing the UN to ignore Iraq.
As far as your statement of "Terrorism can only be fought COVERTLY and INSIDIOUSLY. Not by grand scale conventional warfare. " well, Afganistan seemed more like pretty full out warfare than convert or insidious.
I don't think the admin tried to pin involvement in 9/11 on Saddam. They tried to show that after 9/11 and the Afgan invasion, Saddam provided support to Al Queda. Some of the publically released info was refuted, but that doens't mean all the intelligence they gathered regarding a link was false.
Has Iraq attacked us recently? Has Iraq ever been on the radar before a few months ago? Several of Bush's cabinet have had designs on regime change in Iraq far prior to 9/11. The WTC attacks were a convenient way to fulfill that agenda. And you still have not given me the terrorist links and precedent fo proliferation to back your claims. Again, this all THEORY that can be applied to DOZENS of countries. Are you upset about Iraq's military capability? Yell at France/Germany/Russia, the countries who subsidized the bastard. Or better yet, let's invade them too, right?
The fact is that only recently has inspections been started in earnest. Was that a mistake? Yes, I believe so, but that doesn't change the fact that we are grossly impatient for results when the process has only just begun. Nevermind that our brinksmanship has made this war an inevitability from the beginning
As I stated before, Afghanistan was a whole different ball of wax. They, being complicit in 9/11, attacked us. We were acting in self-defence which necessitated regime change. I am not against such action, when that action is justified. But now al-Qaeda lies in sleeper cells throughout the world.
Moderate reform in Iran was around the corner. With a new US led puppet state in Iraq, the hardliners will prevail. Fanatacism will rise to even greater heights. Do we need that headache? Do you honestly believe we are going to have a democracy in Iraq anytime soon? With free elections, some crazy anti-West radical would be sure to rise. No, this new Iraqi regime will be spoon fed by the US and the rest of the Middle East will react predictably.
It's all moot, it's too late to turn back now. At this point we must win the war quickly and somehow figure a way to involve the Middle East in some sort of constructive means of building a legitmate Iraq. It's a situation we shouldn't be in, and I'm sure we will f*ck it up, but here's to hoping that it all magically works out.