Do be people actually believe that specifically tuned bullshiat? I guarantee you the only "specific" part of this so called design is that the CPU fans come on a little sooner and stay on a little longer in the faster, and thus hotter, machines.
Don't buy every marketting tag line you hear.
Um, the system doesn't just start all the fans and let them run a little longer if it's a faster machine. Tuned means that all the fans are carefully programmed to work together as a whole.
The windtunnel Macs showed that the fans are tuned, since using the Macs in Mac OS 9 were much noisier than in Mac OS X which handled the fans in a much better way.
It's completely easy to add tons of cheap storage to a cheap machine. Both my PC's have two opticals, though superdrives abate the need for this, and one has 2 HDD's while the other has three. I didn't pay a lot for any of those Hard drives. I knew I had the space, so I only bough as much as I needed, and added a second, and third as I needed them. Rather than pay big bucks for a 250+ GB drive, I can buy cheaper drives and add them without tossing the older stuff.
All the other expansion is fine.
3 fast PCI slots are more than enough on a machine which has the rest of the I/O and audio built into the Mobo. And 1 optical is a bit limited, but again, resolved by faster superdrives. Hard drive storage, however, can never be enough.
The case has plenty of room for the drives and is remarkably short sighted that Apple chose not to fit 4 bays but rather only provided two.
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
Why?
An external FW RAID gives him more options. It can be connected to other machines in a sec. He can use a PB if he wants to. When he buys a new Mac he doesn't have to do anything to the RAID.
Why is it so important to have an internal RAID?
And can you even take a software based RAID from one machine and put it in another?
Anyway, he works together with a videographer on the weddings. They use IDE raids in their powermacs, and have gigabit network setup between their machines. It's very convenient for them. When you walk into their place, you see three PM's and a bunch of monitors, a film scanner, an older Analogue NLE setup, etc etc... and other assorted stuff, but no "Network" storage. The network is the old machine. The DV tapes are their own back-up, and they have the slides, and he burns DVD-RAM's to back-up his photo projects.
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
3 Computers? There's people on THESE boards that have more computers about that. He's "Pro" in the sense that he makes his money from his work but his setup is Prosumer at best. IDE RAID in a G4. Let me get off the floor from laughing. He's obviously running Raid O which means if one of his drives goes tits up ALL his data may potentially be lost. Come you're beating a Dead Horse here. YES we all wish that Powermacs had more than 2 Bays but considering the size increase of the G5 Apple made the choice which benefits the "most" purchasers and that is Cooling over Internal Bays. I think it's pretty clear that a majority of Pros aren't stressing the Internal Bay issue hence the lack of Pros chiming in in your support here Matsu.
As for raising the price of the 2Ghz. That would be a grave mistake. Apple has based everything on being faster than the Dual Xeons and cheaper. They can't go raising the price after they made their claims. They just have to hope IBM starts to bang out 2ghz Cpus as quickly as possible. I really doubt we'll see a Dual 1.8Ghz machine but I'm hoping Apple suprises me. If I was Apple I wouldn't stress too much. Mac users are Professional Waiters...most can wait another month if need be, as painful as that is
Apple really goofed on not having the Mid level Machine Dual in the first place. Even if it was a Dual 1.6. Matter of fact they should have just started with a PPC970 1.4 then went to dual 1.6 and Dual 2.0. The 1.4 should have started at $1799 with Superdrive.
um, has anyone brought up the concept of the pci breakout box to accommodate extra storage??? keep in mind, i know next to nothing about breakout boxes, but a friend who is into serious audio swears that most people, especially trying to use laptops for their work, use them all the time for additional cards, drives, etc., and since latency in audio engineering is The Great Evil?, i would assume these things have to work pretty darned well for audio engineers to trust them. if the slots in the G5 are pci-x, why couldn't there be plenty of bandwidth to drive a "slightly external" RAID array???
Picturing "Matsu and his overloaded Dual 2.0 G5" sent me over the edge though.
This limitation can be considered a flaw, sure. But it's not a life-threatening one. They didn't release the G5 with a Max-RAM configuration of 128MB, or a front-side-bus of 50MHz. Or with a name like "Flower Power" or "Dalmation" (what _WERE_ they smoking?!?)
um, has anyone brought up the concept of the pci breakout box to accommodate extra storage???
Yes we have but then we're rebutted with "I don't clutter and that's more expensive than adding in Internal Drives"
The crux of the issue is that those complaining about lack of Internal Bays are doing so primarily because they want storage as cheaply as possible. Professionals don't complain as much because they've been using external drives for years and all they're looking for is connectivity. You want to hear them roar drop FW LOL. Cost should not affect most Businesses since they are able to write off a portion of new Hardware/Software purchases and even moreso write off depreciation. In fact assuming that recent Business Tax laws haven't changed it's actually beneficial for your company to make it "appear" as though your yearly Business Costs are high. This helps you get more tax breaks. That's why you don't hear many Pros complain about prices..they're writing as much as they can off.
Note however as is Matsu's Friend. Smaller Businesses cannot always recoup alot of taxes and so buying new Hardware may not be as beneficial.
3 Computers? There's people on THESE boards that have more computers about that. He's "Pro" in the sense that he makes his money from his work but his setup is Prosumer at best. IDE RAID in a G4. Let me get off the floor from laughing. He's obviously running Raid O which means if one of his drives goes tits up ALL his data may potentially be lost. Come you're beating a Dead Horse here. YES we all wish that Powermacs had more than 2 Bays but considering the size increase of the G5 Apple made the choice which benefits the "most" purchasers and that is Cooling over Internal Bays. I think it's pretty clear that a majority of Pros aren't stressing the Internal Bay issue hence the lack of Pros chiming in in your support here Matsu.
No, the majority of pros that spend scads on machines aren't, but there are enough that spend just enough and not more. Why should they spend more? To keep Apple happy? So long as his machines keep plugging along, he'll keep using them without upgrading. I'd venture that there are more professionals who buy just what they need, work for themselves or in small operations, and make more than enough money doing it, than there are people working at huge studios or TV.
2 RAID drives is fine for miniDV or converted Beta footage, save your laughter for something else. That leaves one drive for the Apps, and another big drive for backup.
What would he lose if a drive went tits up? He has the source tapes for "backup." For his photowork, besides locally held files, every file goes to tape storage and DVD aswell, if customers should come back for more. A third machine acts as a storage/back-up server for their current jobs.
Mebbe it's small potatoes to you, but a 100K + worth of cameras, lenses, flashes, lights, backs, and scanners seems awfully professional to me, the computers are probably the least expensive piece of equipment they own.
Why should they pay more? Because you or Steve have decided that they aren't professional enough?
I think if you add up all the little guys and keep them happy, that's a pretty big "pro" market you've got.
Of course the drives aren't a huge issue for the pros you describe, but the Apple attitude of taking choice out of the customers hands is really what's at issue. Why not just sell machines that more people can use in the way they see fit, rather than force them to accomodate your own philosophy? In the end, you can only gain or keep customers by making a bit more effort to give them what they want.
It's obvious few of you are actually in business. You know the saying, a dollar saved... ???
Most businesses spend learn to spend the least amount of money that will get the job done and not a penny more. Tax write offs only go so far, in many cases it's better to get as much use as possible from something before you replace it, tax write off or not.
Mebbe it's small potatoes to you, but a 100K + worth of cameras, lenses, flashes, lights, backs, and scanners seems awfully professional to me, the computers are probably the least expensive piece of equipment they own.
100K on equipment and he can't afford external drives?
And I ask again: can you even take a RAID from one machine and put it into another one?
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
It's obvious few of you are actually in business. You know the saying, a dollar saved... ???
So what you are saying is if I am a mechanic i should buy a new low quality wrench for each car that comes in for service for $30 dollars even though it only lasts 1 job, instead of buying a high quality wrench for $90 that will last me dozens of jobs?
I do own my own business and when i buy equipment its all about ROI....
(yeah, keep your opinions of the various rumor sites to yourself.)
IF (big IF) Apple is staring down the barrel of not getting any 2x2.0 G5's shipped in time to hit the books for the quarter, would it not make sense for them to try and 'bait' some of those customers with a machine they can ship? I think a lot of people would drop down to 2x1.8 (esp. if the rumored price is true) just to get their grubby mitts on a dual Powermac G5 ASAP. Apple gets sales on the books for the quarter, those that can wait for the 2x2.0 Ghz machines don't get shafted, and all is right with the world......
Sometimes I'm shocked by the attitudes of some here. You seem to think buying equipment before you need it makes good business sense and you justify it with quaint remarks like you have to spend money to make it.
Lets take a average wedding photo plus video package, about 5000 for a day's work, plus meeting during the week, scouting the church/hall, developing, processing and printing. He's been talking about moving to a digital back. A good one will cost him two weekends. Yes, you have to spend money to make money, but if every week you spend all the money, you won't have made too much at the end of the year. The goal, I would imagine, is to save your money for non work related activities. A home, a car, a family, vacations, booze etc etc...
These are two guys, my age, been at it for almost ten years, been on their own for two. They had a lot of equipment built up, but they still have to pay their rent/start-up costs and pay themselves. My guess would be that they can pull in about 200-250K a year and after everything is paid they take about 75ish each. Good money, **I'm guessing** more than I make, even if it is Canadian dollars.
Their computer setup makes sense to them, it works, so why should they have to change it? It wouldn't hurt Apple any to leave options open for people rather than dictate to them the way that they ought to work.
This is a huge issue in the sense that the basic ideology (whether it's drives, or legacy, or AIO's) just ends up turning people off. Will they switch away from mac? Probably not, they like their machines, but they'd also prefer not to change the way they work just for the sake of change. If a drive fails, they can have the setup swapped and working again in 30 minutes. Not a big deal.
Comments
Originally posted by Matsu
Do be people actually believe that specifically tuned bullshiat? I guarantee you the only "specific" part of this so called design is that the CPU fans come on a little sooner and stay on a little longer in the faster, and thus hotter, machines.
Don't buy every marketting tag line you hear.
Um, the system doesn't just start all the fans and let them run a little longer if it's a faster machine. Tuned means that all the fans are carefully programmed to work together as a whole.
The windtunnel Macs showed that the fans are tuned, since using the Macs in Mac OS 9 were much noisier than in Mac OS X which handled the fans in a much better way.
It's completely easy to add tons of cheap storage to a cheap machine. Both my PC's have two opticals, though superdrives abate the need for this, and one has 2 HDD's while the other has three. I didn't pay a lot for any of those Hard drives. I knew I had the space, so I only bough as much as I needed, and added a second, and third as I needed them. Rather than pay big bucks for a 250+ GB drive, I can buy cheaper drives and add them without tossing the older stuff.
All the other expansion is fine.
3 fast PCI slots are more than enough on a machine which has the rest of the I/O and audio built into the Mobo. And 1 optical is a bit limited, but again, resolved by faster superdrives. Hard drive storage, however, can never be enough.
The case has plenty of room for the drives and is remarkably short sighted that Apple chose not to fit 4 bays but rather only provided two.
Originally posted by Matsu
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
Why?
An external FW RAID gives him more options. It can be connected to other machines in a sec. He can use a PB if he wants to. When he buys a new Mac he doesn't have to do anything to the RAID.
Why is it so important to have an internal RAID?
And can you even take a software based RAID from one machine and put it in another?
Anyway, he works together with a videographer on the weddings. They use IDE raids in their powermacs, and have gigabit network setup between their machines. It's very convenient for them. When you walk into their place, you see three PM's and a bunch of monitors, a film scanner, an older Analogue NLE setup, etc etc... and other assorted stuff, but no "Network" storage. The network is the old machine. The DV tapes are their own back-up, and they have the slides, and he burns DVD-RAM's to back-up his photo projects.
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines, uses PB G4's, and will NOT buy G5's unless he can drop his IDE RAID setup into it.
3 Computers? There's people on THESE boards that have more computers about that. He's "Pro" in the sense that he makes his money from his work but his setup is Prosumer at best. IDE RAID in a G4. Let me get off the floor from laughing. He's obviously running Raid O which means if one of his drives goes tits up ALL his data may potentially be lost. Come you're beating a Dead Horse here. YES we all wish that Powermacs had more than 2 Bays but considering the size increase of the G5 Apple made the choice which benefits the "most" purchasers and that is Cooling over Internal Bays. I think it's pretty clear that a majority of Pros aren't stressing the Internal Bay issue hence the lack of Pros chiming in in your support here Matsu.
As for raising the price of the 2Ghz. That would be a grave mistake. Apple has based everything on being faster than the Dual Xeons and cheaper. They can't go raising the price after they made their claims. They just have to hope IBM starts to bang out 2ghz Cpus as quickly as possible. I really doubt we'll see a Dual 1.8Ghz machine but I'm hoping Apple suprises me. If I was Apple I wouldn't stress too much. Mac users are Professional Waiters...most can wait another month if need be, as painful as that is
Apple really goofed on not having the Mid level Machine Dual in the first place. Even if it was a Dual 1.6. Matter of fact they should have just started with a PPC970 1.4 then went to dual 1.6 and Dual 2.0. The 1.4 should have started at $1799 with Superdrive.
Originally posted by Matsu
Easy ther on option 3.
Ok.
How about just _really_ obsess?
Picturing "Matsu and his overloaded Dual 2.0 G5" sent me over the edge though.
This limitation can be considered a flaw, sure. But it's not a life-threatening one. They didn't release the G5 with a Max-RAM configuration of 128MB, or a front-side-bus of 50MHz. Or with a name like "Flower Power" or "Dalmation" (what _WERE_ they smoking?!?)
um, has anyone brought up the concept of the pci breakout box to accommodate extra storage???
Yes we have but then we're rebutted with "I don't clutter and that's more expensive than adding in Internal Drives"
The crux of the issue is that those complaining about lack of Internal Bays are doing so primarily because they want storage as cheaply as possible. Professionals don't complain as much because they've been using external drives for years and all they're looking for is connectivity. You want to hear them roar drop FW LOL. Cost should not affect most Businesses since they are able to write off a portion of new Hardware/Software purchases and even moreso write off depreciation. In fact assuming that recent Business Tax laws haven't changed it's actually beneficial for your company to make it "appear" as though your yearly Business Costs are high. This helps you get more tax breaks. That's why you don't hear many Pros complain about prices..they're writing as much as they can off.
Note however as is Matsu's Friend. Smaller Businesses cannot always recoup alot of taxes and so buying new Hardware may not be as beneficial.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Note however as is Matsu's Friend. Smaller Businesses cannot always recoup alot of taxes and so buying new Hardware may not be as beneficial.
I'm actually in there too.
"Gosh, hard to recoup losses through tax rebates/credits when you didn't pay enough taxes and/or had an operating loss."
Originally posted by hmurchison
3 Computers? There's people on THESE boards that have more computers about that. He's "Pro" in the sense that he makes his money from his work but his setup is Prosumer at best. IDE RAID in a G4. Let me get off the floor from laughing. He's obviously running Raid O which means if one of his drives goes tits up ALL his data may potentially be lost. Come you're beating a Dead Horse here. YES we all wish that Powermacs had more than 2 Bays but considering the size increase of the G5 Apple made the choice which benefits the "most" purchasers and that is Cooling over Internal Bays. I think it's pretty clear that a majority of Pros aren't stressing the Internal Bay issue hence the lack of Pros chiming in in your support here Matsu.
No, the majority of pros that spend scads on machines aren't, but there are enough that spend just enough and not more. Why should they spend more? To keep Apple happy? So long as his machines keep plugging along, he'll keep using them without upgrading. I'd venture that there are more professionals who buy just what they need, work for themselves or in small operations, and make more than enough money doing it, than there are people working at huge studios or TV.
2 RAID drives is fine for miniDV or converted Beta footage, save your laughter for something else. That leaves one drive for the Apps, and another big drive for backup.
What would he lose if a drive went tits up? He has the source tapes for "backup." For his photowork, besides locally held files, every file goes to tape storage and DVD aswell, if customers should come back for more. A third machine acts as a storage/back-up server for their current jobs.
Mebbe it's small potatoes to you, but a 100K + worth of cameras, lenses, flashes, lights, backs, and scanners seems awfully professional to me, the computers are probably the least expensive piece of equipment they own.
Why should they pay more? Because you or Steve have decided that they aren't professional enough?
I think if you add up all the little guys and keep them happy, that's a pretty big "pro" market you've got.
Of course the drives aren't a huge issue for the pros you describe, but the Apple attitude of taking choice out of the customers hands is really what's at issue. Why not just sell machines that more people can use in the way they see fit, rather than force them to accomodate your own philosophy? In the end, you can only gain or keep customers by making a bit more effort to give them what they want.
Most businesses spend learn to spend the least amount of money that will get the job done and not a penny more. Tax write offs only go so far, in many cases it's better to get as much use as possible from something before you replace it, tax write off or not.
Originally posted by Matsu
Mebbe it's small potatoes to you, but a 100K + worth of cameras, lenses, flashes, lights, backs, and scanners seems awfully professional to me, the computers are probably the least expensive piece of equipment they own.
100K on equipment and he can't afford external drives?
And I ask again: can you even take a RAID from one machine and put it into another one?
He's a pro; makes (a not inconsiderable amount of) money with his machines
4x180GB Apple Drive Modules
2x128MB RAID Controller Cache
Redundant power & cooling
Dual RAID controllers
Remote management &
monitoring
720 gigs
$5,999.00
2 Fiberchannel cards
$1000
can't remember if you need a fiber channel router dohickey if you are going straight to the xraid.
if he's making a "(a not inconsiderable amount of)" sum of money. he should look into it.
Originally posted by keyboardf12
4x180GB Apple Drive Modules
2x128MB RAID Controller Cache
Redundant power & cooling
Dual RAID controllers
Remote management &
monitoring
720 gigs
$5,999.00
2 Fiberchannel cards
$1000
can't remember if you need a fiber channel router dohickey if you are going straight to the xraid.
if he's making a "(a not inconsiderable amount of)" sum of money. he should look into it.
A 960GB Googie Orbit will cost him_? 3,799.00.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
It's obvious few of you are actually in business. You know the saying, a dollar saved... ???
So what you are saying is if I am a mechanic i should buy a new low quality wrench for each car that comes in for service for $30 dollars even though it only lasts 1 job, instead of buying a high quality wrench for $90 that will last me dozens of jobs?
I do own my own business and when i buy equipment its all about ROI....
Getting too many internal drives inside a tower will cause serious heating issue anyway.
Some people may say. "Oh yeah. External drives add clutter." Just shut up. Put the boxes under the desk!
Anyway. We should be back to topic - "Will Apple release 1.8 Dual G5?"
Can't believe one person or two make an arguments on internal/external drive turn the entire thread off track
namely: http://www.thinksecret.com/news/g5shipping.html
(yeah, keep your opinions of the various rumor sites to yourself.)
IF (big IF) Apple is staring down the barrel of not getting any 2x2.0 G5's shipped in time to hit the books for the quarter, would it not make sense for them to try and 'bait' some of those customers with a machine they can ship? I think a lot of people would drop down to 2x1.8 (esp. if the rumored price is true) just to get their grubby mitts on a dual Powermac G5 ASAP. Apple gets sales on the books for the quarter, those that can wait for the 2x2.0 Ghz machines don't get shafted, and all is right with the world......
Originally posted by Leonis
Can't believe one person or two make an arguments on internal/external drive turn the entire thread off track
Welcome Leonis! Always nice to see a fresh face on AI, I'm sure you'll like it here.
Lets take a average wedding photo plus video package, about 5000 for a day's work, plus meeting during the week, scouting the church/hall, developing, processing and printing. He's been talking about moving to a digital back. A good one will cost him two weekends. Yes, you have to spend money to make money, but if every week you spend all the money, you won't have made too much at the end of the year. The goal, I would imagine, is to save your money for non work related activities. A home, a car, a family, vacations, booze etc etc...
These are two guys, my age, been at it for almost ten years, been on their own for two. They had a lot of equipment built up, but they still have to pay their rent/start-up costs and pay themselves. My guess would be that they can pull in about 200-250K a year and after everything is paid they take about 75ish each. Good money, **I'm guessing** more than I make, even if it is Canadian dollars.
Their computer setup makes sense to them, it works, so why should they have to change it? It wouldn't hurt Apple any to leave options open for people rather than dictate to them the way that they ought to work.
This is a huge issue in the sense that the basic ideology (whether it's drives, or legacy, or AIO's) just ends up turning people off. Will they switch away from mac? Probably not, they like their machines, but they'd also prefer not to change the way they work just for the sake of change. If a drive fails, they can have the setup swapped and working again in 30 minutes. Not a big deal.