It gets around Intel having to kludge 64-bit extensions with only 8 more registers into the x86 model. IA-64 is full clean 64-bit with plenty of registers and a linear address space.
Hmm, that sounds familiar, I wonder if there's another architecture that's more or less ready for the consumer and has a cleaner 64-bit implementation than x86.
Just got my Intel iMac 20" and grabbed the MSDN December CTP Vista build from work...I'll see what happens here soon.
From what we start to hear on the web, it seems that Mac are using a version of EFI without CSM (BIOS compatibily layer which explains why WinXP doesn't boot) and with an EFI specific partition header called GPT, here is a link:
So a classical BIOS bootable volume won't boot on our EFI only Mac. I suspect that it's the same will CD volume.
Maybe actual build of Windows Vista has a CD image that only supports booting from classical BIOS (I suppose that's it's not a problem since most if not all x86 EFI machine supports BIOS through CSM). Most except Macs.
Maybe someone will figure out how to create a GTP volume on a external hard disk and copy the files from the Vista install CD and then boot from the hard disk.
[EDITED] It seems that there is a diskpart utility in the EFI firmware to create and edit a GPT partition header.
Can this utility help troubleshoot disk boot problem and help in the partitionning and creating of a bootable Windows Vista installer?
Can someone with an access to an Intel iMac please tell us if there is this Diskpart utility in the iMac?
[EDITED] From what's explain in the Microsoft document, it appears that a GPT bootable disk starts with a classical MBR boot block (for compatibility with BIOS) which is follow by the GPT boot block. So a GPT bootable disk can also be a BIOS bootable disk but the reverse is not true (a MBR/BIOS only disk cannot boot on EFI systems without CSM).
Don't these new Intel Macs require that you hold down the 'D' key rather than the 'C' key of old?
Just something I heard, and worth a shot. No?
DTG.
You still use "C" to force booting from the optical drive (if bootable media is present), but you use "D" to boot Apple Hardware Test.
In other words, "D" only has one function -- booting Apple Hardware Test from the Restore DVD. (I wonder if holding down Option and getting to the boot selection screen would still show both the bootable OS X partition and the bootable Apple Hardware Test partition on the DVD, or if only OS X shows up and the AHT is conjured up somehow else with the "D" key.)
What about booting into OS X, hooking up an external firewire drive, and using GPT to partition it, using the 'windows' flag. Then dumping a good windows install on it, and trying to boot from it using option?
2. When in the EFI Shell, add a new Boot Option as described in this document (in the section "Boot Option Maintanance Menu") of type "Legacy Boot" for your Windows XP boot CD or something else.
I have NOT been able to verify this because I do not own an Intel-based Mac yet .
Would be great if someone tried it. At your own risk...
My limited understanding is that it won't work right now and when it does it will require a hack. Intel Macs don't have a BIOS and use the new EFI instead.
Somebody will do it, but who knows when. Microsoft Vista supposedly will support EFI when it comes out, but who knows when that will be?
It is my understanding that most EFI is in fact backwards compatible, but that feature can be removed from firmware, which Apple probably did as their firmware is probably a one-off
Apple may have worked with intel to make sure that they didnt have "legacy mode" it wouldnt be that hard to do, each vendor has their own version of BIOS or EFI and each vendor does their own thing to it. Part of Apples thing may have been to disable legacy, after all, why does MacOSX need it?
It looks like we are getting close! It's interesting to see how hard people are working to solve this problem. This is an opportunity to open up millions of people to the idea of switching. The question is will it be too difficult for the average user or will this eventually be down to installing a third party program and choosing OS X/ Other?
What about booting into OS X, hooking up an external firewire drive, and using GPT to partition it, using the 'windows' flag. Then dumping a good windows install on it, and trying to boot from it using option?
Yes, that could be a good idea. But maybe there won't be the required driver on the Windows Vista install.
Another solution could be to create a bootable GPT partition (it seems that there is the utility for this in MacOS X 10.4.4 (Intel and PowerPC)) and simply copy the file of the Windows installer. Then like you said, booting on it using option and running the installer?
Yes, that could be a good idea. But maybe there won't be the required driver on the Windows Vista install.
Another solution could be to create a bootable GPT partition (it seems that there is the utility for this in MacOS X 10.4.4 (Intel and PowerPC)) and simply copy the file of the Windows installer. Then like you said, booting on it using option and running the installer?
As far as I know, this was already tried and did not work.
Quote:
Vista (Build 5270 32-bit with EFI support) does not boot even from a FAT32 partition on a GPT partitioned volume. Selecting 'bootmgr.efi' hangs the machine, and 'cdboot.efi' simply dumps back to the EFI shell after a moment. I've been working with this all afternoon, and the iMac's EFI *can* see the volume, and the Vista EFI booters: it just can't do anything with them.
In other words, it's going to require some modification or special code to even boot Vista on these machines. And unless Apple has really included BIOS compatibility and it's just disabled - AND someone finds a way to enabled it - booting Windows XP directly is even less promising.
The EFI in the Intel iMac is missing support for El Torito/UDF or whatever bootable optical format XP/Vista use, as well...
Comments
Originally posted by lundy
It gets around Intel having to kludge 64-bit extensions with only 8 more registers into the x86 model. IA-64 is full clean 64-bit with plenty of registers and a linear address space.
Hmm, that sounds familiar, I wonder if there's another architecture that's more or less ready for the consumer and has a cleaner 64-bit implementation than x86.
Oh yeah, I think it was called PowerPC.
Originally posted by JonE
I'm holding C down and it's not booting...and I have no idea how to access EFI directly.
Hold Option and see if it recognizes it as a bootable media storage.
Originally posted by JonE
Just got my Intel iMac 20" and grabbed the MSDN December CTP Vista build from work...I'll see what happens here soon.
From what we start to hear on the web, it seems that Mac are using a version of EFI without CSM (BIOS compatibily layer which explains why WinXP doesn't boot) and with an EFI specific partition header called GPT, here is a link:
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/d...d_tro_jiox.asp
So a classical BIOS bootable volume won't boot on our EFI only Mac. I suspect that it's the same will CD volume.
Maybe actual build of Windows Vista has a CD image that only supports booting from classical BIOS (I suppose that's it's not a problem since most if not all x86 EFI machine supports BIOS through CSM). Most except Macs.
Maybe someone will figure out how to create a GTP volume on a external hard disk and copy the files from the Vista install CD and then boot from the hard disk.
[EDITED] It seems that there is a diskpart utility in the EFI firmware to create and edit a GPT partition header.
Can this utility help troubleshoot disk boot problem and help in the partitionning and creating of a bootable Windows Vista installer?
Can someone with an access to an Intel iMac please tell us if there is this Diskpart utility in the iMac?
[EDITED] From what's explain in the Microsoft document, it appears that a GPT bootable disk starts with a classical MBR boot block (for compatibility with BIOS) which is follow by the GPT boot block. So a GPT bootable disk can also be a BIOS bootable disk but the reverse is not true (a MBR/BIOS only disk cannot boot on EFI systems without CSM).
Originally posted by Aquatic
Hm I suppose Command Option O F doesn't work eh?
Then Command+Option+E+F+I should
Originally posted by costique
Then Command+Option+E+F+I should
That needs way too many fingers.
Originally posted by JonE
I'm holding C down and it's not booting...and I have no idea how to access EFI directly.
Don't these new Intel Macs require that you hold down the 'D' key rather than the 'C' key of old?
Just something I heard, and worth a shot. No?
DTG.
Originally posted by DTG
Don't these new Intel Macs require that you hold down the 'D' key rather than the 'C' key of old?
Just something I heard, and worth a shot. No?
DTG.
isnt it possible to 'halt' the os, rebooting directly into the boot prompt?
edit: maybe 'init 0'?
Originally posted by DTG
Don't these new Intel Macs require that you hold down the 'D' key rather than the 'C' key of old?
Just something I heard, and worth a shot. No?
DTG.
You still use "C" to force booting from the optical drive (if bootable media is present), but you use "D" to boot Apple Hardware Test.
In other words, "D" only has one function -- booting Apple Hardware Test from the Restore DVD. (I wonder if holding down Option and getting to the boot selection screen would still show both the bootable OS X partition and the bootable Apple Hardware Test partition on the DVD, or if only OS X shows up and the AHT is conjured up somehow else with the "D" key.)
so for normal users there is no way install windows ...mmm good and bad
Originally posted by shanmugam
strange, APPLE said it would not stop installing windows ... it seems hard time out there ...
so for normal users there is no way install windows ...mmm good and bad
Not yet. It's only a matter of time.
But I don't have an intel mac.
1. Install the EFI Shell as described here.
2. When in the EFI Shell, add a new Boot Option as described in this document (in the section "Boot Option Maintanance Menu") of type "Legacy Boot" for your Windows XP boot CD or something else.
I have NOT been able to verify this because I do not own an Intel-based Mac yet
Would be great if someone tried it. At your own risk...
Michael
Originally posted by WelshDog
My limited understanding is that it won't work right now and when it does it will require a hack. Intel Macs don't have a BIOS and use the new EFI instead.
Somebody will do it, but who knows when. Microsoft Vista supposedly will support EFI when it comes out, but who knows when that will be?
It is my understanding that most EFI is in fact backwards compatible, but that feature can be removed from firmware, which Apple probably did as their firmware is probably a one-off
Apple may have worked with intel to make sure that they didnt have "legacy mode" it wouldnt be that hard to do, each vendor has their own version of BIOS or EFI and each vendor does their own thing to it. Part of Apples thing may have been to disable legacy, after all, why does MacOSX need it?
Originally posted by concentricity
What about booting into OS X, hooking up an external firewire drive, and using GPT to partition it, using the 'windows' flag. Then dumping a good windows install on it, and trying to boot from it using option?
Yes, that could be a good idea. But maybe there won't be the required driver on the Windows Vista install.
Another solution could be to create a bootable GPT partition (it seems that there is the utility for this in MacOS X 10.4.4 (Intel and PowerPC)) and simply copy the file of the Windows installer. Then like you said, booting on it using option and running the installer?
Originally posted by FrenchMac
Yes, that could be a good idea. But maybe there won't be the required driver on the Windows Vista install.
Another solution could be to create a bootable GPT partition (it seems that there is the utility for this in MacOS X 10.4.4 (Intel and PowerPC)) and simply copy the file of the Windows installer. Then like you said, booting on it using option and running the installer?
As far as I know, this was already tried and did not work.
Vista (Build 5270 32-bit with EFI support) does not boot even from a FAT32 partition on a GPT partitioned volume. Selecting 'bootmgr.efi' hangs the machine, and 'cdboot.efi' simply dumps back to the EFI shell after a moment. I've been working with this all afternoon, and the iMac's EFI *can* see the volume, and the Vista EFI booters: it just can't do anything with them.
In other words, it's going to require some modification or special code to even boot Vista on these machines. And unless Apple has really included BIOS compatibility and it's just disabled - AND someone finds a way to enabled it - booting Windows XP directly is even less promising.
The EFI in the Intel iMac is missing support for El Torito/UDF or whatever bootable optical format XP/Vista use, as well...