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Human Shields (What are they thinking?) - Page 11

post #401 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
Also, there is nothing in that article with the inspectors asking for 12 months. </strong><hr></blockquote>

"But we still have quite a bit of work to do, and therefore we are going to ask for at least a few months to be able to complete our job," said ElBaradei, who heads the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Sorry, that quote was from Jan. 27. I guess a few months from Jan. 27 is less than 12. I guess that means I was wrong. The inspectors don't even want 12 months.
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post #402 of 450
Those months contingent on Iraq providing FULL COMPLIANCE.

This is a key point you keep wanting to ignore. Iraq has never given full compliance, ever. They need a few months if Iraq gives full compliance.

Keep ignoring it. Keep your head in the sand.
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post #403 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Those months contingent on Iraq providing FULL COMPLIANCE.... Keep ignoring it. Keep your head in the sand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, and you keep attacking me personally instead of trying to discuss anything. I'll keep trying to raise the level of your conversation, but I can't do it all on my own. You have to want to.

So we're looking at a few months. Is that still too much for you? Are you afraid you would you lose your hard-on for war by then? Are you prepared to hold off your need for blood long enough to let the inspectors 'give up' in a few months? Or do you just absolutely have to kill now? Are you afraid that after two months the inspectors will say they're progressing very well and that war will never be necessary? Is that the fear? That war now or it'll never be possible?

War is your goal. No-war is not my goal. Your bias is too plain. Your motives are too clear. You want war. That's too bad. I'd hope our society could create individuals that were more enlightened than that.
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post #404 of 450
I'm very confident the inspectors will fail. Mainly because Iraq has yet to, and never will, "fully comply".
post #405 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>So we're looking at a few months. Is that still too much for you? Are you afraid you would you lose your hard-on for war by then? Are you prepared to hold off your need for blood long enough to let the inspectors 'give up' in a few months? Or do you just absolutely have to kill now? Are you afraid that after two months the inspectors will say they're progressing very well and that war will never be necessary? Is that the fear? That war now or it'll never be possible?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We're not looking at a few months, bunge, because France rejects ANY deadline. Any ultimatum at all will apparently be vetoed. Where do you get this "only a few months" idea?

You will whine about personal attacks but accuse me of just wanting to kill. Please try to be consistent or at least not be a whiner if you're going to play hardball.
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post #406 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

We're not looking at a few months, bunge, because France rejects ANY deadline. </strong><hr></blockquote>

The inspectors asked for 'a few months'. That's not a specific deadline. If in 3 or 6 months they come back and 'give up', then you'll have your answer. If in 3 or 6 months they come back and say everything is running smoothly then there's no war.

Bush wants a trigger. That's unreasonable to a lot of people. Without a trigger Bush is willing to attack unilaterally. That's unreasonable too. France shouldn't be forced to agree to a trigger.
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post #407 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>The inspectors asked for 'a few months'. That's not a specific deadline. If in 3 or 6 months they come back and 'give up', then you'll have your answer. If in 3 or 6 months they come back and say everything is running smoothly then there's no war.</strong><hr></blockquote>

What does "running smoothly" mean?
Do you think there's ever a point where Iraq must fulfill its obligations or does that not matter?

[quote]<strong>Bush wants a trigger. That's unreasonable to a lot of people. Without a trigger Bush is willing to attack unilaterally. That's unreasonable too. France shouldn't be forced to agree to a trigger.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They won't be forced to agree to anything.

Have you seen the UNMOVIC Cluster document?
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post #408 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong> What does "running smoothly" mean?
Do you think there's ever a point where Iraq must fulfill its obligations or does that not matter?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have you realized yet that this is up to the inspectors and the U.N. (not you, me or the United States) to decide?
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post #409 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>Have you realized yet that this is up to the inspectors and the U.N. (not you, me or the United States) to decide?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, it's not up to the inspectors, it's up to the Security Council whether or not Iraq is complying with 1441 (and previous resolutions).

If you would bother to actually read the inspectors reports (which I'm sure you haven't) and the relevant resolutions (which I'm sure you haven't) it would be abundantly clear to you that the job of the inspectors is to evaluate evidence brought forward by Iraq and provide reports to the Security Council. They are not policy makers who say "yes" or "no" and they are not detectives who are there to search for things.

It's difficult to intelligently discuss something as complex as this issue with someone who is willfully ignorant of the basic fundamentals. I've got Resolutions 1441, 1284, 1154 & 687 all in .pdf, Blix's last two reports (2/14/03 & 3/7/03) in .rtf & the Cluster document in .pdf if you'd like to educate yourself on the realities of this issue. I'd be more than happy to e-mail them to you.

Make an effort to be informed, bunge, just a superficial effort to at least act like you know something about the issue would make me very happy.

And BECAUSE it is not their duty to make policy you will see that they have not said "yes" or "no". There's a reason, bunge, there's a reason.

Your trigger is the "yes" or "no" from the inspectors. But it's something you will never get because that is not their job.

The United States is not and cannot force anyone to enforce 1441 under the UN guidelines. That's not even a question so I don't know why you bring it up.
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post #410 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong> avoidavoidavoidavoid.</strong><hr></blockquote>

OK.
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post #411 of 450
OK, if I have to explain things like you're a simpleton, I can. I just thought we could have a reasonable discussion without trying to play semantic games.

Obviously the inspectors don't have any say.
Obviously the Security Council has all the say.
Obviously the inspectors get the information and pass it to the Security Council.
Obviously the Security Council takes the information from the inspectors and assimilates it.

You should be able to see how that process roughly translates into "this is up to the inspectors and the U.N. (not you, me or the United States) to decide...."

I'm interested in learning, not nitpicking, bickering or personally attacking people here. I can do all three as well, it just gets in the way of a potentially intelligent discussion rather than enhancing it.
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post #412 of 450
[quote]<strong>Obviously the inspectors don't have any say. Obviously the Security Council has all the say. Obviously the inspectors get the information and pass it to the Security Council. Obviously the Security Council takes the information from the inspectors and assimilates it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes.

[quote]<strong>You should be able to see how that process roughly translates into "this is up to the inspectors and the U.N. (not you, me or the United States) to decide...."</strong><hr></blockquote>

Since the United States is part of the UN, you're wrong. The United States has as much a say as any other nation in the Security Council. The United States has more say than the inspectors.

Your assertion lies in the assumption that the US and the UN and the US are separate competing entities. That the US, by pushing forced disarmament, is going *against* the UN. This is patently idiotic.
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post #413 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>

Your assertion lies in the assumption that the US and the UN and the US are separate competing entities. That the US, by pushing forced disarmament, is going *against* the UN. This is patently idiotic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're almost right. My assertion is that the US & the UN competing entities. Both parties want to disarm Iraq (at least in theory) but the US is in favor of war. The UN is in favor of a war-less solution. In that sense they are at odds.

I've repeatedly said that Bush was right to push the issue, and that his pressure was the catalyst for getting to a solution (be it through war or peace). I've never even indirectly made the claim that the US pushing for forced disarmament is wrong. That would be idiotic.

I would say that pushing for regime change is wrong, even if getting Saddam out would be a positive for the world. But that issue covers a whole different realm than just disarmament.
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post #414 of 450
[quote]<strong>You're almost right. My assertion is that the US & the UN competing entities. Both parties want to disarm Iraq (at least in theory) but the US is in favor of war. The UN is in favor of a war-less solution. In that sense they are at odds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The US is also in favor of a war-less solution to disarmament, as are the nations that are with the US. If you truly believe the US just wants war, why do we not see war?

Those members who have promised to veto ANY deadlines have not offered alternative plans. Do you honestly think they care about disarming Iraq?

[quote]<strong>I've repeatedly said that Bush was right to push the issue, and that his pressure was the catalyst for getting to a solution (be it through war or peace). I've never even indirectly made the claim that the US pushing for forced disarmament is wrong. That would be idiotic.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But you have claimed that the US wants war. Have you not?
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post #415 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
The US is also in favor of a war-less solution to disarmament, as are the nations that are with the US. If you truly believe the US just wants war, why do we not see war? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Come on now, if 'we' can get war through diplomatic means it'll mean a heck of a lot fewer headaches. The effort getting the U.N. to say 'yes' will be less painful than the aftereffects of a 'unilateral' attack. For that reason alone it makes sense to try to get the U.N. to approve a war. You could have thought of that.

[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>
But you have claimed that the US wants war. Have you not?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yes, I believe Bush & Co. will not stop short of war. I assume because their goal is regime change, not disarmament.
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post #416 of 450
But if the US just wants war then surely even 100% proven disarmament and Saddam's exile wouldn't stop them, right?
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post #417 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>
Bush wants a trigger. That's unreasonable to a lot of people. Without a trigger Bush is willing to attack unilaterally. That's unreasonable too. France shouldn't be forced to agree to a trigger.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Without a 'trigger' we would be exactly were we are now, regardless of the timeframe given. Assume the US was willing to present another resolution that didn't have a trigger, and follow France's lead regarding Iraq. Perhaps it threatens more serious consequences...then after the given time frame, we would be having this exact conversation. The hawks arguing that now force is required, the doves pushing for yet more time, saying we need another resolution, again without a trigger or deadline. This would potentially go on and on, accomplishing nothing in terms of actual disarmament, and would only serve to embolden Saddam, as he realized that the once credible threat is really just a paper tiger. This charade has been going on for 12 years. Haven't we learned that extending timeframe again and again without consequences accomplished exactly the opposite of disarming Iraq. Saddam sees delays by the world community as weakness and exploits them. As goverate continually and correctly says, a credible threat of consequences fails to continue being credible when no serious reprimand is ever given. At some point it simply becomes a bothersome annoyance.

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"My 8th grade math teacher once said: "You can't help it if you're dumb, you are born that way. But stupid is self inflicted."" -Hiro. 

...sometimes it's both
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post #418 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>But if the US just wants war then surely even 100% proven disarmament and Saddam's exile wouldn't stop them, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Saddam's exile might, but I'd guess that 100% disarmament wouldn't. It's impossible to prove 100% disarmament so there's always going to be a question.
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post #419 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Tulkas:
<strong>
As goverate continually and correctly says, a credible threat of consequences fails to continue being credible when no serious reprimand is ever given. At some point it simply becomes a bothersome annoyance.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. 300,000 troops amassed on your borders isn't an annoyance. OK, it IS an annoyance, but it's also a credible threat.

As long as the troops are there, the inspectors will continue to make headway. That's correct.

At no point will there be a request that the inspectors make that will be refused. We have access to palaces without having to wait 2 days. We now have spy planes flying over the cities. We are going to take scientists and their families out of the country. The hawks lie and say "all that's happened is we've made them destroy a few missles." Those advances I've mentioned are much more important than the destroyed missles. They'll lead you to your 'trigger' or 'smoking gun' if it exists.

What do we honestly believe the U.N. will do if Saddam refuses to let the scientists leave the country while 300,000 troops are waiting to attack? Let him say 'no' and continue with the rest of the inspections? Saddam certainly doesn't think so since he's caved in on every request.
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post #420 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by bunge:
<strong>
What do we honestly believe the U.N. will do if Saddam refuses to let the scientists leave the country while 300,000 troops are waiting to attack? Let him say 'no' and continue with the rest of the inspections? Saddam certainly doesn't think so since he's caved in on every request.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Saddam doesn't have to say no. The scientists them selves can do that for him. 1441 already said that the inspectors had the right to take scientists outside of Iraq for interviews. Scientists haven't exactly been lining up for interviews alone and unrecorded, let alone out of country. Saddam can already claim he is allowing scientists to leave. The UN can't force these scientists to leave or even consent to a private interview if they choose not too. Given the threats Saddam has probably spread throughout the Iraqi scientific community, is it any wonder none are stepping forward?

Inspections are not working. They are finding dribs and drabs of materials and weapons. But if they were working, they would be fulfilling their mandate, which is to verify the destruction and accounting of the weapons, not looking for hidden weapons.

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post #421 of 450
I thought I'd dredge up this thread and re-set on topic...

What are human shields thinking? "But we thought we had an understanding. We didn't think they would kill us." (-media spokesman for International Solidarity Movement)

This poor misguided fool from Olympia, WA got herself killed by lying in front of an Israeli armored <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/16/international/16WIRE-MIDE.html?ex=1048482000&en=49fbc653358e27a8&ei=506 2&partner=GOOGLE" target="_blank">bulldozer</a>. She died protecting the home of a Palestinian militant.

Meanwhile, the local news here spent a solid 3 minutes showing her mourners, talking about what a wonderful girl she was, without bothering to mention why, exactly, those evil Jews were bulldozing houses in Gaza. And they reported that the bulldozer "backup up and ran over her two or three time", an account not supported by any mainstream news source. Even the NY Times suggests it was a terrible accident; she was trapped when she tried too late to move, with the driver unable to see her that close to the blade and assuming she'd be smart enough to get out of the way.

The news spent even more time on the "peace rallies" in town tonight, pretending that there were "thousands" of people such rallies around the country. More like a couple hundred misguided Catholics in the local catherdal plus a few dozens others at local hot spots. Don't even get me started on how these rallies were apparently inspired by an "invitation" from Archbishop Tutu (he who likens Israel to Hitler's Germany).

I live in ^#&!@ Baghdad. When can I go home to NY again?
post #422 of 450
I think this one is closet to the truth.


From <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/16/rafah.death/index.html" target="_blank">CNN</a>

[quote]Other witnesses, however, reported that Corrie had scaled a pile of dirt but then lost her footing and fell backward behind it, out of sight of the bulldozer operator. The bulldozer continued moving forward, covering Corrie with dirt and then crushing her. <hr></blockquote>


Reminds me of those people who sat on the tracks in front of a moving train. Guy lost a leg and I think he sued over it. What a world we live in.
post #423 of 450
[quote]Meanwhile, the local news here spent a solid 3 minutes showing her mourners, talking about what a wonderful girl she was without bothering to mention why, exactly, those evil Jews were bulldozing houses in Gaza. And they reported that the bulldozer "backup up and ran over her two or three time", an account not supported by any mainstream news source. Even the NY Times suggests it was a terrible accident; she was trapped when she tried too late to move, with the driver unable to see her that close to the blade and assuming she'd be smart enough to get out of the way.<hr></blockquote>

The Israelis are bulldozing Palestinian homes, villages and farms, regardless as to whether the inhabitants are militants or not. The IDF doesnt make the distinction: Sharon's aim is to break and annihilate the Palestinian people, in the same way that Hamas/Hezbollah etc want to eliminate the Jews. A Palestinian State? This will *never* happen. Those people are doomed.
Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a...
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post #424 of 450
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #425 of 450
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #426 of 450
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #427 of 450
Hey, this has gone on far to long without my graceful presence.

Can't wait to see these so called human shields high tail it outta there with the news that the yankees are coming. Of course, any that do hang around are more likely to be killed by Saddam's "American" troops. Wouldn't it be funny if Saddam now won't let go, a la Serbian methodology?

Anxiously awaits first news reports.
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post #428 of 450
Matsu, Saddam has expelled most human shilds many days ago.
Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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Bill Bradley to comedian Bill Cosby: "Bill, you are a comic, tell us a joke!"
- "Senator, you are a politician, first tell us a lie!"
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post #429 of 450
Most?

Poor sod, too paranoid/crazy to exploit/spot a political advantage when it lands right in his lap. Meh, his days are numbered anyway.
IBL!
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post #430 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Towel:
<strong>And they reported that the bulldozer "backup up and ran over her two or three time", an account not supported by any mainstream news source</strong><hr></blockquote>

Actually, the very first report I read said she was in a brightly colored coat and was run over, and then backed over again.
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post #431 of 450
[quote]Originally posted by Scott:
<strong>
I think this one is closet to the truth. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Since you're relying on CNN, does that mean the rest of us can too? Or whenever a CNN article doesn't support your case, will it be the left-wing media again?

Just trying to clarify for the future.
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post #432 of 450
The <a href="http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Articles.asp?Article=46526&Sn=WORL" target="_blank">Gulf Daily News</a> from Bahrain supports the CNN account. So does the <a href="http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/076/nation/An_Israeli_bulldozer_hits_kills_US_protester+.shtm l" target="_blank">Boston Globe</a> and <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/17/international/middleeast/17GAZA.html?ex=1048482000&en=6e26c8d40c902feb&ei=5 062&partner=GOOGLE" target="_blank">the New York Times</a>. All bastions of pro-war hawkish sentiment. The only article I came across in my casual googling to claim she was run over two or three times was from the Olympian (Olympia, WA - her hometown). For some odd reason, I trust every other major news source around the world over the Olympian and Q13Fox.

Edit: that account, also, comes from a single eyewitness who is a member of the ISM, which, obviously, has an interest in making Israel appear as evil as possible. Get max value from her death, right? It should be noted that the other accounts come from a variety of Palestinian witnesses, who you might think would be at least as unsympathetic to the Israelis.

[ 03-17-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</p>
post #433 of 450
[QUOTE]Originally posted by groverat
Quote:

We're not looking at a few months, bunge, because France rejects ANY deadline. Any ultimatum at all will apparently be vetoed. Where do you get this "only a few months" idea?

Here .

"Only a couple of weeks ago, Hans Blix told the Security Council that the key remaining disarmament tasks could be completed within months.

I have heard it said that Iraq has had not months but 12 years in which to complete disarmament, and that our patience is exhausted.

Yet it is more than 30 years since resolution 242 called on Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories.

We do not express the same impatience with the persistent refusal of Israel to comply."
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post #434 of 450
I love arguments that whine about off-subject issues!

That is one of the more laughable anti-war arguments I've read.
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post #435 of 450
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat
I love arguments that whine about off-subject issues!

That is one of the more laughable anti-war arguments I've read.

That's because you didn't follow the link and read the argument.
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post #436 of 450
I did read the speech. It was good in places and not good in others.

Don't let other people argue for you, bunge.
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post #437 of 450
Well well lookie here. Turns out this "peace activist" was a hate monger.



Rachel Corrie, 23, from Olympia, Wash., a member of the 'International Solidarity Movement,' burns a mock U.S. flag during a rally in the southern Gaza Strip (news - web sites) town of Rafah in this Feb. 15, 2003 file photo. Corrie was run over and crushed to death by an Israeli army bulldozer Sunday, March 16, 2003, while she was trying to stop it from tearing down a building in the Rafah refugee camp, witnesses said. (AP Photo/Khalil Hamra)

Talk about "root causes". When one of our own citizens teaches this kind of hate to young children you have to wonder what she's working for? Peace or terror?
post #438 of 450
Quote:
Originally posted by groverat


Don't let other people argue for you, bunge.

The link wasn't posted because it's a good argument against war. It's posted because it proves that Blix stated that inspections would only require months. That's the info you 'were looking for', in quotes because you don't really want to see it.

So, Blix says months. According to you a credible threat could be sustained for a few months. The war is not necessary by your own logic.

Are you ready to reverse your decision? Or will you continue to ridicule and avoid instead?
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
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"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
post #439 of 450
Blix says the inspectors require months given full cooperation and disclosure by Saddam. He never got that. Read the "cluster" document. Read his reports to the security council. If you can find an instance of Blix saying he can disarm Iraq fully within months withou Saddam's full cooperation I'll gladly concede.

Scott:

Teaching hate is only bad if you're white.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #440 of 450
Quote:
Originally posted by Scott
Well well lookie here. Turns out this "peace activist" was a hate monger....Talk about "root causes". When one of our own citizens teaches this kind of hate to young children you have to wonder what she's working for? Peace or terror?

"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
"Hearing a corrupt CEO like Cheney denigrate Edwards for being a trial lawyer is like hearing a child molester complain how Larry Flint is a pervert." -johnq
Reply
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