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Five undisclosed features of Apple's Mac OS X Snow Leopard - Page 2

post #41 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

And won't it stop doing it if you add it to the dictionary?

The Newton had a spiffy trick where any name in the Address Book was automatically added to the system-wide Dictionary for recognition and correction.
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post #42 of 99
The majority of the large Apps sizes are related to localisation of the NIB files, and also if they strip the PPC code making them intel-only binaries, I can see how they can get these large size reductions.

Anyway, if these large app sizes bother anyone else, you can try xslimmer on your leopard apps and strip out a lot of extra files. By removing localizations, My Mail.app is 24MB, down from 278!
post #43 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonfj View Post

Text Edit is 22mb?!?

Text Edit is 5.4MB on my system, 5.1MB of which are interface related files (the UB code is less than 300Kb, so stripping out the PPC code would result in a minimal gain).
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post #44 of 99
I've got to have Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Now, I'm likely to buy it as the operating system that is included with a brand new iMac.

Apple, if you read me, don't spoil the prospects of Mac OS X Snow Leopard by delaying it unduly. Ideally, it should come out at MacWorld 2009 along with brand new quad core iMacs. If it's impossible, Mac OS X Snow Leopard should be launched no later than April 2009.

The Developper Preview of Mac OS X Snow Leopard is quite buggy if I am to believe what I read on the internet. Please iron out the bugs ASAP. Thanks, and keep working hard for the next chapter in Mac OS X history.

post #45 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmaletic View Post

That seems unlikely as well: most apps don't have very many bitmaps in them at all. (A few toolbar icons, an app and document icon, etc. We're talking about 200K here.)

What else could it be?

Most likely a combination of compiling tighter code bases (and I don't think they'll stop supporting PowerPC myself) using more modern compilers and LLVM perhaps, removing extraneous language packs apart from those desired (these are very large, multiplied by dozens of languages), removal of cruft, etc.
post #46 of 99
They'd also do well to add GREP search and replace to the text engine. That's add GREP's well-honed abilities to almost all text applications.
post #47 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

And won't it stop doing it if you add it to the dictionary?

I'm more annoyed by the windows habit of capitalizing the beginning of a line whether you want it or not...and defaulting to pasting text with style included. I'm still looking for a way to turn that off.

Auto-capitalise is the most annoying thing ever. I only use Word to create documents that are technical in nature, for in-house use, and sometimes you want your words to not start in upper case. I hate having to delete it and redo it to keep it correct. Someone mentioned shift-space, I'll try that, but hidden workarounds are not the way to implement things like this.

On the other hand, automatic em-dash and arrows and the like are handy.

Auto-correct spelling is annoying because I see my typo, am already hitting delete when it corrects it. Delete de-corrects it. Annoying.

Oh, and pasting with styles is so annoying, and having to always do paste special doubly so. Never mind I tried pasting in Excel data into Word today, and it came out way too wide, with no option to resize (nor intelligently fitting the mere five columns into the available page width) unless I pasted as Windows metafile format. Resizing it was an exercise in futility - no resize to page layout markers, not even an outline of the resized item, just plain guessing.
post #48 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post

indicates to me a new set of Frameworks and dylibs that are used across many applications instead of having custom dylibs per application that added bloat to the general applications.

Exactly!
If they move the frameworks out of the applications, the only things left are localizations! All the applications listend are pretty much just frontends to Frameworks.

Apple could even make a large repository of vectorized standard widgets and icons that can be used by any application. Put those great icon artists at Apple at work for everyone's benefit.
post #49 of 99
Hmm, I always love AI but I found it odd how this post say how things that are not confirmed like it is confirmed. Apple Newton? There is some rumors here and there but no solid evidence. MB and MBP revamp? So far we heard news about new MB somewhere in the Apple factory but no real pictures or evidence like the iPhone 3G.
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post #50 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_snitch View Post

The majority of the large Apps sizes are related to localisation of the NIB files, and also if they strip the PPC code making them intel-only binaries, I can see how they can get these large size reductions.

As said earlier, they haven't stripped out the PPC code yet - the 10.6 preview ships with universal apps, meaning PPC code intact.
post #51 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henriok View Post

Exactly!
If they move the frameworks out of the applications, the only things left are localizations! All the applications listend are pretty much just frontends to Frameworks.

Apple could even make a large repository of vectorized standard widgets and icons that can be used by any application. Put those great icon artists at Apple at work for everyone's benefit.

With that type of architecture, aren't we in danger of Window type DLL-hell? What if you (think) you no longer need a framework, delete it, only to find that one more app still needs it. That has happened to me on Windows a couple times, and it was not fun.

I think I know what I'm talking about, kinda sorta...
post #52 of 99
No. Frameworks solve most of the DLL hell issues outright, with intelligent versioning. All it would take is a little bit of logic in the OS to alert you to which apps need which frameworks prior to deletion.

There is *zero* reason why libraries, plugins, extensions, etc, should be subject to versioning crises. Eclipse, I'm looking in your braindead direction. (I mean come on... putting the version information for a feature or plugin in the *file name*?? How stupid do you have to be? What is this, 1975??)
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post #53 of 99
If it hasn't already happened, Snow Leopard's apps will no doubt lose even more weight by dropping all the old PowerPC code.

Maybe they've also got more intelligent OS X installer defaults that don't assume you need to run the entire OS in every possible language. Even today, if you turn off all the extra localizations (a lot of people leave these on because they confuse this with the ability to read or input other languages, which is always included), many of your apps will be smaller by not including the files (.nibs and strings and such) for localizations you don't use.
post #54 of 99
I would really like to see Apple's Installer include built in support for uninstalling applications. Simply telling users "Just drag it to the trash" is not enough. Even applications that have drag-and-drop installation may automatically install files in several other locations during the first launch. EyeTV and Microsoft Office 2004 do this. And I would like smart uninstall support which can check for dependencies and warn users when removing applications that are needed by other applications.
post #55 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar View Post

I would really like to see Apple's Installer include built in support for uninstalling applications. Simply telling users "Just drag it to the trash" is not enough. Even applications that have drag-and-drop installation may automatically install files in several other locations during the first launch. EyeTV and Microsoft Office 2004 do this. And I would like smart uninstall support which can check for dependencies and warn users when removing applications that are needed by other applications.

That would be nice. I don't think it would be too hard to create a deamon that would monitor what files/folders are created by an app while it's running, that would then create a small DB of the apps that would delete the appropriate files.
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post #56 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by elron View Post

Please don't let this be true. Underlining misspelled words is good enough. Please don't correct them for me. Most of the time I mean what I typed, not what Word thinks I thought I typed.

Why would anyone take UI cues from Microsoft Word? Are they going to introduce the line you can see but for some reason can't delete as well? Or the table that used to be there but isn't there anymore but for some reason you can't reclaim the space where it used to be? Maybe the image that looks like you can drag it where you want it but will really stay exactly where it is no matter what? So many features to copy, so little time.

please, dont even joke about that stuff.. its taken me long enough to wash most of it from my mind!
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post #57 of 99
The huge reductions in file size would probably be from a combination of lacking localizations, and from using more efficient compilers. I don't think the frameworks will disappear from apps in SL, because this will require more complicated program installs, and an "Add or Remove programs" prefpane.

As far as the spellcheck/auto correct goes, am I the only one hoping that this will be in there? I am not that great of a typer, and I find word's auto-correct the only useful future in Word. As long as they would throw in a preference pane to handle it and the system-wide spellcheck.

I hope this doesn't go too far though... Soon we won't be able to select text properly, and whenever we open Safari, Clippy will ask us "I see you are trying to read Appleinsider. Would you like some help?"
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post #58 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmadlena View Post

With that type of architecture, aren't we in danger of Window type DLL-hell? What if you (think) you no longer need a framework, delete it, only to find that one more app still needs it. That has happened to me on Windows a couple times, and it was not fun.

I think I know what I'm talking about, kinda sorta...

No, you won't have DLL-hell. The frameworks will becomes system components that other apps can use, most likely a part of cocoa. Because they are standard system frameworks, there will be less space consuming code duplication and no one will ever think of deleting them because /System is sacred.
post #59 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post

And won't it stop doing it if you add it to the dictionary?

The ones you catch aren't the issue - the issue is the ones you miss. If Word "corrects" someone's name, an obscure word that's not in the dictionary, or something that's not a word (like correcting "NaOH" to "Noah" in a chemistry paper). and you don't notice it, that's when the really embarrassing situations come into play if you don't eventually end up catching the misspelling.
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post #60 of 99
This is just pitiful!

Where have you people been living?
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post #61 of 99
all i ask for is that Apple finally include FLAC support in iTunes.....


i'm this close to installing Linux on my mac pro so I can use Amarok....


there is absolutely no excuse for not having flac support or at least creating a framework where a 3rd party could implement it
post #62 of 99
The slimming of apps, while good, is not very impressive when one takes xslimmer into account. I have used xslimmer on 10.5.3 and the end result are apps that are all smaller - some significantly - than those supposedly slimmed Snow Leopard apps.

Take for example:
IChat - SL 48MB, xslimmer 11.4MB
iChat - SL 52MB, xslimmer 11.3MB
Mail - SL 91MB, xlimmer 24.7MB
Safari - SL 61MB, xlimmer 7.6MB

These are significant reductions and that was just from stripping out PPC and redundant language code, so what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard is nothing special.
post #63 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerryn View Post

The slimming of apps, while good, is not very impressive when one takes xslimmer into account. I have used xslimmer on 10.5.3 and the end result are apps that are all smaller - some significantly - than those supposedly slimmed Snow Leopard apps.

Take for example:
IChat - SL 48MB, xslimmer 11.4MB
iChat - SL 52MB, xslimmer 11.3MB
Mail - SL 91MB, xlimmer 24.7MB
Safari - SL 61MB, xlimmer 7.6MB

These are significant reductions and that was just from stripping out PPC and redundant language code, so what Apple is doing with Snow Leopard is nothing special.

SL still contains the localizations, the apps would be much smaller if they were removed. Xslimmer is doing a very rudimentary job of reducing the code, while SL is reducing the code in other ways, though we don't exactly know how yet.

Could they be making a single localization that can work for any and all apps installed? Are thy replacing lage bitmaps with vector graphics? Ar they cleaning up the code itself with a new compiler or making more use of frameworks? Ws shall see.
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post #64 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

SL still contains the localizations, the apps would be much smaller if they were removed. Xslimmer is doing a very rudimentary job of reducing the code, while SL is reducing the code in other ways, though we don't exactly know how yet.

Could they be making a single localization that can work for any and all apps installed? Are thy replacing lage bitmaps with vector graphics? Ar they cleaning up the code itself with a new compiler or making more use of frameworks? Ws shall see.

Okay in that respect they are doing fairy well. It will be interest to see what an xslimmed version of the Snow Leopard apps will end up being.

I will give Apple due congrats for reducing the size of their apps. In a world where everything seems to get bigger all the time, it is refreshing for something to get smaller.

Of course, Apple will probably charge you more for it! Less is more, right?
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

SL still contains the localizations, the apps would be much smaller if they were removed. Xslimmer is doing a very rudimentary job of reducing the code, while SL is reducing the code in other ways, though we don't exactly know how yet.

Could they be making a single localization that can work for any and all apps installed? Are thy replacing lage bitmaps with vector graphics? Ar they cleaning up the code itself with a new compiler or making more use of frameworks? Ws shall see.

OK this is pretty basic computer science people. I have the Snow Leopard preview but I'm not going to break NDA. However, I will go on a road of self discovery and enlightenment with ya'll together.

As was stated earlier, executable code is a very small portion of an application's disk footprint. Take Mail.app for example in Leopard:

du -h /Applications/Mail.app
<snip>
289M\t/Applications/Mail.app

Mail.app takes up a whopping 289MB. This is a MacBook Pro, basically fresh off the truck from China and updated to 10.5.3. Now, look at the executable:

du -h /Applications/Mail.app/Contents/MacOS/Mail
5.7M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/MacOS/Mail

The Mail executable is 5.7MB, or 1.97% of the overall footprint. Even if LLVM and all the other "compiler magic" (oy) in Snow Leopard reduced the executable to a measly 4K (impossible given the Mach headers, static data and load commands alone would be more than that), the bundle would still be around 284 MB.

So let's look at the resources. The real heft is in Resources:

du -h /Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources
279M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/

So 279MB, or 98% of the footprint, is taken up by resources. Which resources then?

du -h /Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/ | sort
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//Dutch.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//English.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//German.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//Italian.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//Japanese.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//Spanish.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//da.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//fi.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//ko.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//no.lproj
15M\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources//pl.lproj
...
As you can see, each localization takes up 15 MB. With 18 localizations installed by default, that's 270MB.

Now, let's look at the individual localized files. In English:
du -h /Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj/ | sort
44K\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj//MailHelp/shrd
..
540K\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj//MailViewer.nib
544K\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj//SmartMailboxCriterionView.nib
568K\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj//MailHelp/gfx
576K\t/Applications/Mail.app/Contents/Resources/English.lproj//MailSorter.nib

As you can see, the largest files are nib files.

So to take an educated guess: Snow Leopard will dramatically reduce the footprint of the operating system by only installing one localization--the localization choosen by the user when they boot from the CD and choose which language to use for the installer. Other languges will be on the install disk as an Optional install. Perhaps some images will be replaced by PDF and other vector art, but bearing in mind that vector art is still much more expensive to render, and Apple has typically discouraged that route except for very simple graphics (look at the Apple Icon Guidelines), I still assert almost all the savings will come from installing fewer resources.
post #66 of 99
Oh and one more thinglets remember that Apple has to REDUCE footprint while adding 64 bit binaries. Therefore the size reduction will not, in any way shape or form, come from reducing code size. Remember, 64 bit binaries are around 2x the same of their 32 bit counterpart.
post #67 of 99
Indeed if they just removed all of the localisations that the user won't be using, there would be an awful lot of space saved / slimmer applications. Sounding pretty exciting anyway, given that the general trend is for things to be getting bigger / more bloated.
post #68 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrabu View Post

Maybe they are comparing versions with all languages installed (default on new Mac) versus developer build which is most likely English only. That's quite a lot less nibs here folks...

Or they've cut the PPC bits out? There was talk about snow leopard not supporting PPC anymore but I may have missed something.
post #69 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by allblue View Post

I take particular offence when I have just written a superb piece of prose only to find a green squiggle appearing under it. Grammar check tells me that Bill Gates thinks my 'sentence is too long'! The nerve! Harumph!

So true! I absolutely must have auto correct and grammar check off in Word, or else I go nuts!
post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by emulator View Post

my thoughts exactly. not long ago, programmers were more precise. these days they are lazy and use all kind of compilers thus the huge size of files.

it started long ago, but still the best ever programmed piece is SAWStudio.

My Textedit is 3.1MB.

Leopard (10.5.3)
English and Mandarin
post #71 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Booga View Post

One of my wife's co-workers has a last name spelled "Taht". It was almost impossible for anyone to write him a letter in a Microsoft application without it coming through as "That".

They can't add it to the dictionary? (Or kill auto correct?)
post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post

Let Apple know, via http://bugreport.apple.com . I know I did the minute I read that paragraph. If they find out how many people hate this "feature", they'll have to leave it off by default, and only available for the masochists who'd actually want to turn it on.

Lack of irritating misfeatures like that is why I ended up buying Pages instead of Word 2008.

Did you give Word 2008 a chance? Perhaps try it via a friend or another source? After all, you could have turned some features off. I find Word '08 to be quite capable, superior to Word '04 though it took some getting used to and more complete than Pages.
post #73 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by merdhead View Post

Really, that's not AI's style. They are not so much a rumour site as a bullshit site. They haven't provided us with any sort of rationale for this idea they deliver with such certitude. They confidently state some future iPhone will have an Atom processor because someone used an image on a slide, although it defies all logic. They don't have the technical nouse to develop any of these ideas as possibilities. They just throw out half baked notions based on their own ignorance.

And you [and we] read it.
post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeTheRock View Post

...whenever we open Safari, Clippy will ask us "I see you are trying to read Appleinsider. Would you like some help?

No no, better, "I see you are trying to access AppleInsider. How about porn instead?"
post #75 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Auto Activation
...the technology will be used to help expand upon Font Book to provide full Auto Activation of any fonts requested by any application, using Spotlight to track them down.

Leopard already has automatic font activation (thus our ability here to do away with Suitcase X1 in Leopard.) I guess the above simply means that you can auto-activate fonts from locations other than /Library/Fonts?
post #76 of 99
Why SL app sizes are so much smaller.

http://www.pipian.com/hacking/explai...app_sizes.html This begs the question, if they aren't needed after app development then why was Apple including them. If you answer is it was an oversight, then why weren't they removed with a point update?
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post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by elron View Post

Please don't let this be true. Underlining misspelled words is good enough. Please don't correct them for me. Most of the time I mean what I typed, not what Word thinks I thought I typed.

Why would anyone take UI cues from Microsoft Word? Are they going to introduce the line you can see but for some reason can't delete as well? Or the table that used to be there but isn't there anymore but for some reason you can't reclaim the space where it used to be? Maybe the image that looks like you can drag it where you want it but will really stay exactly where it is no matter what? So many features to copy, so little time.

My thoughts exactly (except I can't stand even the underlining). If there is anything like this I just hope it can be turned off completely. The automatic changes that Word makes are so frustrating and annoying. I've turned off all the automatic features I can, but there are still a few that can't be turned off.
post #78 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

Those still missing -- such as word auto correction, smart dash insertion, and text replacement features (such as typing TM to get the ™ character) -- will arrive next Spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider, typed using Snow Leopard Alpha View Post

Those still missing -- such as word auto correction, smart dash insertion, and text replacement features (such as typing ™ to get the ™ character) -- will arrive next Spring.



can you really see this happening in Mac OS?

Next stop, an animating paperclip...
post #79 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by JakeTheRock View Post

I am not that great of a typer, and I find word's auto-correct the only useful future in Word. As long as they would throw in a preference pane to handle it and the system-wide spellcheck.

If you used Firefox you'd see the errors showing up in there. Mind you, no spell checker (unless extremely clever, so by this I include Word) is going to pick up mistakes such as "future" instead of "feature".
post #80 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by palple View Post

Text Edit is 5.4MB on my system, 5.1MB of which are interface related files (the UB code is less than 300Kb, so stripping out the PPC code would result in a minimal gain).

What are these people talking about?



And that's Universal!!
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