Palm fires back at Apple, fixes Pre sync with iTunes

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 166
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Halvri View Post


    Because there's case precedence and they know they would lose. So, why waste money on a trial?



    Exactly right. If only those who keep saying monopoly and anti-trust would go and understand what's going on before responding.
  • Reply 62 of 166
    yuusharoyuusharo Posts: 311member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Halvri View Post


    And Apple is only ever seen as monopolistic by people who have an extreme sense of entitlement.



    And to those who notice their 70%+ marketshare of MP3 devices



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    There is a DoubleTwist Mac client. Go check their website.



    Oh wow! I hadn't been to their site in a while I guess. Digg, you've failed me! I guess I have to wait for 3.0 compatibility first, however.
  • Reply 63 of 166
    ipeonipeon Posts: 1,122member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Oh, and one more thing: Palm webOS 1.1 re-enables Palm media sync," the post reads. "That?s right -- you once again can have seamless access to your music, photos and videos from the current version of iTunes (8.2.1)."



    Beyond iTunes, webOS 1.1 brings a number of updates focused on business users, including remote wipe, inactivity timeout, improved certificate handling and more for Exchange ActiveSync.



    Copy much?
  • Reply 64 of 166
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post


    "It just works!" is one of their mottos. Stick to it? I can understand if they don't want to support a third party product, but DON'T FREAKING BREAK IT ON PURPOSE.



    Representing a Pre as an iPod (which is a trademarked icon and name belonging to Apple) is an outright intentional lie. That's not something that just works; it's actually already broken.



    If Palm wanted to make something that just works, they should spend some money and write a piece of software to read the iTunes XML file like everyone else does.
  • Reply 65 of 166
    davegeedavegee Posts: 2,765member
    Okay...



    Let me know if I've gone totally off the ranch with this... but shouldn't Apple be suing Palm claiming some crappy statute from the DMCA?!?!? **or** was DMCA only really intended to be used by mega corps against the unwashed masses and peons who couldn't possibly defend them selves and/or tiny companies who are in the same situation? I think the court would self implode if two mega corps actually went after each other with it...



    Yea yea yea I know... there have been plenty of companies that have gone after equals.. I just felt like bashing a crappy law that never should have been considered for a vote.
  • Reply 66 of 166
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by yuusharo View Post


    And to those who notice their 70%+ marketshare of MP3 devices



    Oh wow! I hadn't been to their site in a while I guess. Digg, you've failed me! I guess I have to wait for 3.0 compatibility first, however.



    But the Pre is a cell phone. And when music-playing phones are included, Apple's share is maybe 15% at most. And that's not a monopoly.
  • Reply 67 of 166
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveGee View Post


    Okay...



    Let me know if I've gone totally off the ranch with this... but shouldn't Apple be suing Palm claiming some crappy statute from the DMCA?!?!?



    Palm was likely very careful to document the reverse engineering of the iTunes interface, especially with so many Apple insiders on board.
  • Reply 68 of 166
    mark2005mark2005 Posts: 1,158member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post


    There is no anti-trust issue. The XML for the iTunes library is freely available and very easy to program for, read, and write to. It would be trivial for Palm to write their own app or users can simply use any of the open source solutions (http://www.sourceforge.net). There are numerous applications out there that sync perfectly with a users iTunes library. It is NOT Apple's responsibility to support a non-apple device, especially when that device competes directly with iPod and iPhone.



    This is not an Operating System who's primary purpose to to integrate with 3rd party hardware and software. This is software. This is no different that MS Office not providing support for ODF format on the Mac, or Lotus 123 not reading Excel files, or Windows Media Player not supporting iPod. I wouldn't expect MS to put out an update that suddenly gets an iPod working with it out of the box. Neither did apple. They simple wrote their own.



    If iTunes was the only method for users to access their iTunes library then you might have an anti-trust issue. This is not the case however. This is not Apple hardware for one, and iTunes never claimed nor are they required to support a competing vendors product. I think the Pre owners would be better served complaining to Palm to write them supported software that just reads and writes directly to the iTunes library.



    Amen. Thanks for writing this all out. Now if iPhone1982 and the others will read it...
  • Reply 69 of 166
    It wouldn't be hard for Palm to keep pace with Apples updates and continue support for Palm Pre sync with iTunes. Apple has a shitty response time to security updates and hacks.



    With Palm and iPhone hackers waging war with iPhone updates, Apple can only lose.
  • Reply 70 of 166
    brucepbrucep Posts: 2,823member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post


    A



    Interoperability is a GOOD THING.



    "It just works!" is one of their mottos. Stick to it? I can understand if they don't want to support a third party product, but DON'T FREAKING BREAK IT ON PURPOSE.



    Proof ?



    And apple was never contacted by palm about this asking for an agreement.That is how buisness is conducted. Your anger is for palm . grow up



    Also palm has un synced apple a few times recently in a spiteful way.





    ANTI TRUST??



    85 percent of all itune users are on window machines
  • Reply 71 of 166
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sofabutt View Post


    It wouldn't be hard for Palm to keep pace with Apples updates and continue support for Palm Pre sync with iTunes. Apple has a shitty response time to security updates and hacks.



    With Palm and iPhone hackers waging war with iPhone updates, Apple can only lose.



    Except Palm is promising iTunes syncing, as a selling point. Until Apple breaks it again. Then it's no longer a valid claim and you're lying to your customers. Palm's whole claim is has no foundation to it. it's out of their control yet they are passing it off as legitimate and consistent.



    I'd be very interested what would happen if Palm advertsed iTunes syncing as "some of the time", or "an estimated 2 months out of 4", etc. That is, for what it truly is.



    So right now, Palm is essentially misrepresenting the situation to its customers.
  • Reply 72 of 166
    Palm is probably licking its chops with all the priceless publicity this little act on their part is generating. Money couldn't buy this kind of advertising.



    Apple should simply ignore them, and continue to go about their business. One day, soon enough, there will be a sufficiently important change in the software that Palm will be left stranded. This, after many of the Pre owners will have invested mightily in their iTunes libraries. They will then have little choice but to end up with an iPod or an iPhone.



    Palm is being realy silly if they can't see this coming.
  • Reply 73 of 166
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OskiO View Post


    Someone gave my wife a Zen Stone for running last year. It is great and just what she needed but I can't us it with iTunes



    Why not?

    Select the songs in iTunes then drag them to the Zen on the desktop.
  • Reply 74 of 166
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,031member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Halvri View Post


    How many times does this have to be said: Apple barely makes back operating costs on iTunes actual content. Most of the money is flowing to the movie/music studios and the artists. Apple only makes money when you buy either an iPod or an iPhone. That is why it has a vested interest in tying iTunes to its own products.



    And how many time does it have to be asked how the business model Apple employs is relevant to Joe User who wants to sync his music library?
  • Reply 75 of 166
    sevenfeetsevenfeet Posts: 465member
    All of you that think that Palm has every right to worm it's way into syncing with iTunes never went to business school or law school. iTunes is not an operating system. Mac OS X and Windows are designed with APIs so that developers will do as much as possible with it so people will go out and buy Macs or Windows machines respectively. This is how their business models for these products works.



    iTunes is an individual program running on Mac OS X or Windows. Because of that, it's not designed by Apple to promote selling Macs. It's designed to promote that other profitable Apple venture, iPods and iPhones. Yes, iTunes used to support third party MP3 players in the early days but those days ended after iTunes came to Windows. Since iTunes business model is iPod/iPhone profit margins, Apple has zero interest in having any other company's device talk to it.



    And iTunes is not just a program with a few dozen developers supporting the product on Mac and Windows. iTunes has hundreds of programmers supporting one of the most complex infrastructures in modern computing. The iTunes store is a huge technology operation covering millions of SKUs (songs, music videos, movies, TV shows...all with contracts that have to be honored), dozens of countries of operation, an iPhone app store with 60,000+ apps in it (with their own pricing policies) and a security model that keeps your credit card information safe. And they spend lots of money promoting it and marketing it. The technical operation is reportedly the largest single instance of SAP ERP software on the planet. The Oracle database is also likely to be enormous and complex. And all of it has to run on thousands of servers in several parts of the world just to keep up with the load. You think Apple is building that data center in North Carolina at the tune of 1 billion dollars because it feels like it?



    Apple has spent hundreds of millions of dollars over several years making sure this operation works every time a user accesses it. And sometimes its been stretched to the breaking point (remember when iPhones first had problems in activation? They have spent countless hours in design, architecture, programming, regression testing (involving every iPod & iPhone ever made) and go-live projects...all of which you never see.



    So now Palm wants to piggyback on those efforts just to sell a few Pres and avoid having to invest in the man-hours and infrastructure Apple has done. Are you kidding me? At best, its intellectually lazy. At worst, it' probably illegal due to the DMCA, or violation of the EULA. Now, I have no doubt that Palm will make its own music program eventually. They are exposed to too much risk with the current hack. Palm doesn't have the resources to build its own music/video store so I would think they would partner with someone like Amazon. But that will cost money too. Every wonder why Apple says that the iTunes store isn't that profitable? Read my piece about the infrastructure costs again.



    Palm needs to stop iTunes integration before Apple decides to make an example of them.
  • Reply 76 of 166
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPhone1982 View Post


    I would think that since Apple allows RIM to sync the Blackberry and isn't allowing PALM to sync the PRE it's more a case of very bad for Apple's Image along with slave labor they use to manufacture the phone.



    Allow Blackberry

    Don't Allow Palm Pre



    Can anyone say EU anti Trust?



    You are celebrating "PRE" Maturely.



    They're not allowing RIM to do anything and Palm not to. RIM created its own software to sync with the XML music file, Palm hacked iTunes. What RIM did is completely legal and ethical, what Palm did was neither.



    There's no anti-trust case to be had because the only thing stopping Palm from syncing with that XML file is Palm.
  • Reply 77 of 166
    If I was a Pre owner, I'd be disgruntled with Palm, thankfully I am a 3GS owner. Shouldn't Pre owners feel like they are getting substandard service and attention. Palm keeps marketing their "great" WebOS and how revolutionary it is and how it allows you to do soo many things, yet they tell users to piggyback on someone else's software and ingenuity to sync.



    To me this is like buying a brand new, 3 bedroom, $700,000 (Cali price) house with an in ground swimming pool and the contractor says you can't get cable & internet conntected, you must steal them from your neighbor. And your neighbor keeps cutting the line from his house to yours. You love the house, but the constant on/off of cable and internet would piss you off.



    If the house (Palm) is so great and smart, why don't they build their own stand alone software that allows users to sync? If smart, they'd make their own 'iTunes' type program and tell the world how superior it is to iTunes as they are trying to do with the made from cheap plastic, baby finger Pre. To me Palm is telling their users, "we need Apple - you need Apple." If that is the case, why even buy a Pre, just buy an iPhone and avoid the b.s. hacks. Just like the MSFT laptop hunter ads, they are unknowingly telling users how great and superior Apple is. Silly Palm.
  • Reply 78 of 166
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post


    And how many time does it have to be asked how the business model Apple employs is relevant to Joe User who wants to sync his music library?



    Well, for one, you agree to the EULA when you install iTunes (it's the first thing you see before it installs). Even beyond that though, if you screw up Apple's business plan then there's no money to run iTunes with and the store shuts down and you have nothing to sync to or with anymore. One company doesn't have to allow something just because it's convenient for a user who apparently doesn't even use their products.
  • Reply 79 of 166
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zorinlynx View Post


    The "Pre users" are not the enemy. They're not the "other side". Don't you people realize this?



    Competition is a good thing. The iPhone and Pre are great phones in slightly different ways. Maybe the Pre's existence will kick Apple's ass into adding multitasking in a future release. Maybe the 3Gs will kick Palm's ass into getting video implemented sooner.



    Competing products benefit each other greatly. Companies in monopoly positions get lazy and don't innovate. They don't get any inspiration from the competition, because there is none.



    Wake up and stop being a completely blind Apple fanboy. Note that I own a Mac Pro and a Macbook Pro so I'm not speaking entirely from the other side of the "fence".



    I have to laugh at the pretensions of those who preach to Apple that it should learn how to multi-task like the really great Pre OS.

    Problem is that iPhone OS DOES multi-task. Apple has just taken a deliberate path of waiting until battery life can support it properly. All reviews I've seen indicate that rampant multitasking on a Pre drains battery life like a sieve.

    Apple prizes the 90% of users who want battery life over the small sub-sector that wants to multi-task. Argue with that all you like, but Apple doesn't need Pre to get them to multi-task.
  • Reply 80 of 166
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sevenfeet View Post


    All of you that think that Palm has every right to worm it's way into syncing with iTunes never went to business school or law school. iTunes is not an operating system. Mac OS X and Windows are designed with APIs so that developers will do as much as possible with it so people will go out and buy Macs or Windows machines respectively. This is how their business models for these products works.



    iTunes is an individual program running on Mac OS X or Windows. Because of that, it's not designed by Apple to promote selling Macs. It's designed to promote that other profitable Apple venture, iPods and iPhones. Yes, iTunes used to support third party MP3 players in the early days but those days ended after iTunes came to Windows. Since iTunes business model is iPod/iPhone profit margins, Apple has zero interest in having any other company's device talk to it.



    And iTunes is not just a program with a few dozen developers supporting the product on Mac and Windows. iTunes has hundreds of programmers supporting one of the most complex infrastructures in modern computing. The iTunes store is a huge technology operation covering millions of SKUs (songs, music videos, movies, TV shows...all with contracts that have to be honored), dozens of countries of operation, an iPhone app store with 60,000+ apps in it (with their own pricing policies) and a security model that keeps your credit card information safe. And they spend lots of money promoting it and marketing it. The technical operation is reportedly the largest single instance of SAP ERP software on the planet. The Oracle database is also likely to be enormous and complex. And all of it has to run on thousands of servers in several parts of the world just to keep up with the load. You think Apple is building that data center in North Carolina at the tune of 1 billion dollars because it feels like it?



    Apple has spent hundreds of millions of dollars over several years making sure this operation works every time a user accesses it. And sometimes its been stretched to the breaking point (remember when iPhones first had problems in activation? They have spent countless hours in design, architecture, programming, regression testing (involving every iPod & iPhone ever made) and go-live projects...all of which you never see.



    So now Palm wants to piggyback on those efforts just to sell a few Pres and avoid having to invest in the man-hours and infrastructure Apple has done. Are you kidding me? At best, its intellectually lazy. At worst, it' probably illegal due to the DMCA, or violation of the EULA. Now, I have no doubt that Palm will make its own music program eventually. They are exposed to too much risk with the current hack. Palm doesn't have the resources to build its own music/video store so I would think they would partner with someone like Amazon. But that will cost money too. Every wonder why Apple says that the iTunes store isn't that profitable? Read my piece about the infrastructure costs again.



    Palm needs to stop iTunes integration before Apple decides to make an example of them.



    You have to understand, there are only two kinds of Pre owners: 1) ones like me that bought it because we liked Sprint's plans and it was a decent phone and 2) people who wanted an iPhone that was made by anyone but Apple.



    The first crowd sees all of this for what it is, the second crowd just wants another chance to tell Apple to go fuck itself.
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