<strong>So killing "an unborn child" is not a matter of morality to you? I just cannot accept this kind of thinking.... So should people only be allowed to live if it is economically convenient for them to do so? What is it about an *unborn* child that makes it so different from a born child that it's life is at the mercy of its parent's convenience?
I really don't mean to misrepresent your stance on this, zonetuke, I'm just trying to flesh out its implications and foundation. Maybe you'ld like to clarify what makes abortion an a-moral decision, while murder clearly is a moral decision.... (if you believe that)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Solishu,
I would be opposed to an abortion if I were the father. It is wrong only for me. However, any other pregnancy is not for me to judge because of the unique physical configuration (a human inside of a human). All other situations I feel we can opine upon because these are instances whereby one human exists apart from another human (not physically bound). In summary, the decision to abort a pregnancy demands moral refection, but only by the parties involved.
You statement about economics is naive and I did not express that. First of all, we are not talking about people, rather unborn infants. Secondly, I used the adjectives "economic and social", not convenient. The economic and social reasons are many. However, most of these are substantial and are heavy stress factors in people lives. Convenience usually involves trivial matters.
The fact of the matter is that everyday women abort their pregnancies due to a mix of the following reasons: not capable of being a parent, not enough $, no father, medical hazards, do not wish to procreate, etc...
I'm not following the "logic". We're talking about abortion, not statutory rape.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, but what I was disputing was someone's (I don't remember who) statement that any older man who impregnated a teenager was scum (or something to that effect.
[quote]Say an older teen is manipulated by an older man (happens everywhere everyday) and is cast out by her family as a whore?
Is it ok then since she's been through mental duress and severe emotional trauma.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think it's ok in any circumstances, but in situations such as these I think that it's less condemnable.
[quote]Pregnancy is punishment?<hr></blockquote>
If you've been forced into it against your will, don't want to be pregnant, don't want to have a baby, don't feel that you're ready to raise a child, and/or aren't capable of supporting a child: yes. Also, there's more to it that just "being pregnant". You have to deal with restricted abilities, hormonal imbalance, all sorts of other symptoms of pregnancy, then the pain of childbirth (sometimes described as forcing something the size of a basketball through a hole the size of a golfball) or of surgery. After that, even if you opt for adoption and don't have to go through the hardships of raising a child before you're ready you still have to deal with the mental and emotional anguish of giving your child away. That I would say is punishment, especially when forced on an undeserving, innocent young girl.
[quote]There are degrees of atrociousness in regards to a dead baby?<hr></blockquote>
Yes. Babies die all the time. If a baby dies of some childhood disease, or a birth defect, would you consider that an atrocity on the level of murdering another human being? Are SIDS and abortion on the same level?
[quote]Since it's about morality, wouldn't it be the moral thing for a rape victim to give birth to the child and give it a chance at life?<hr></blockquote>
The moral thing is to make a rape victim suffer further?
So, using your definition of viable, it would be perfectly ok for me to kill my aged grandmother who is paralyzed and on a respirator (as long as I shoot her up with morphine first so she doesn't feel pain) because she is a financial burden to me?
Oh, and don't give me that crap that you don't understand how someone can be pro life and pro death penalty. Out of the 4000 or so abortion threads that you've started or hijacked, I'm sure someone has explained to you the difference between killing for justice and killing innocents. Troll.
I started this thread because the other one got hijacked, I say it earlier in the thread. Use your reading skills.
And he said "pro-choice and anti-death penalty" not the other way around.
You didn't eat your Wheaties OR stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, did you?
Re: your sick old grandmother:
If she wants you to, absolutely. But at that point in her life she is a person with a history and who has lived 70+ years of life with family and whatnot. Far different from a developing fetus.
nonhuman:
[quote]Yes, but what I was disputing was someone's (I don't remember who) statement that any older man who impregnated a teenager was scum (or something to that effect.)<hr></blockquote>
Yeah that was me.
Men who sleep with women and get them pregnant and then split are scum. They are scum if they get them pregnant and are not 100% supportive. Scum. Pieces of shit. They are very responsible for that pregnancy, yet someone will tell a woman that she can't have an abortion while telling the man that he doesn't have to worry about it.
[quote]I don't think it's ok in any circumstances, but in situations such as these I think that it's less condemnable.<hr></blockquote>
You sure you're not pro-choice?
[quote]Yes. Babies die all the time.<hr></blockquote>
Let me rephrase, there are degrees of atrociousness to ending a baby's life through abortion?
<strong>the FACTS are we don't really know when "life" is formed. We can however GUESS. That doesn't mean we are RIGHT. Saying otherwise makes you look foolish.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course we know when life begins - conception. And please don't tell me this is just my personal belief. This is an existential fact. The only reason why we are debating the matter is because we are talking about human life here and we are trying to determine whether or not there are circumstances in which we can choose to not protect individual human lives. The guesswork people are engaging in is where to draw the line. But that line isn't about when life begins. It's about when we all will agree human life should be legally protected.
[quote]I started this thread because the other one got hijacked, I say it earlier in the thread. Use your reading skills.<hr></blockquote>I'm not sure what I said wrong here
[quote]And he said "pro-choice and anti-death penalty" not the other way around.<hr></blockquote>D'oh! Ok, I'm a dope.
[quote]If she wants you to, absolutely.<hr></blockquote>She doesn't want to. I want to kill her because:
a) She's a financial burden
b) She's a useless human being
or
c) I just don't want to deal with the responsibility.
[quote]But at that point in her life she is a person with a history and who has lived 70+ years of life with family and whatnot. Far different from a developing fetus.<hr></blockquote>Yes, far different from a fetus. But why is it wrong to kill her? She's probably less of a human than this fetus will be. She's living on a respirator, she can't really move etc...I'd argue that the fetus with 70+ years of potential is more valuable than a person with maybe 6-12 months worth of bed ridden life.
On the topic of rape and incest, why would it be so horrible to have the woman bring the baby to term and then put it up for adoption? I never see anyone mention this option. I would think that having a baby and giving it to loving parents that can't conceive would be quite a rewarding experience. Making good out of a bad situation.
My biggest problem with abortion (besides the whole murdering a baby thing) is the fact that it cheapens respect for life. Face the facts. It started with Roe v. Wade and has progressed to partial birth abortion (which is murder, plain, simple and gruesome!) I'm sure if I told you in the 70's that we would be fighting for the right to drill into a partially born human being that you would have laughed at me and called me a right wing extremist.
So now that we have sunk to this low, how much of a stretch will it be to start allowing other forms of murder, like the situation I describe above with my grandmother. Dr Kevorkian started it, where will it end? (Don't hijack this thread into a "right to die" argument please. I was just making a point.)
[quote]Yes, far different from a fetus. But why is it wrong to kill her?<hr></blockquote>
It's wrong to kill her because she's a human being. Just like it's morally wrong to abort a fetus.
[quote]She's probably less of a human than this fetus will be.<hr></blockquote>
Howso?
I'm not following what you're trying to say.
[quote]On the topic of rape and incest, why would it be so horrible to have the woman bring the baby to term and then put it up for adoption? I never see anyone mention this option. I would think that having a baby and giving it to loving parents that can't conceive would be quite a rewarding experience. Making good out of a bad situation.<hr></blockquote>
Should she be legally obligated to bring to term a pregnancy that was forced on her?
[quote]My biggest problem with abortion (besides the whole murdering a baby thing) is the fact that it cheapens respect for life. Face the facts.<hr></blockquote>
So does the death penalty. So does shooting someone who is stealing your car stereo. Those aren't illegal, though.
[quote]So now that we have sunk to this low, how much of a stretch will it be to start allowing other forms of murder, like the situation I describe above with my grandmother. Dr Kevorkian started it, where will it end? (Don't hijack this thread into a "right to die" argument please. I was just making a point.)<hr></blockquote>
Mercy killings are asked for, so there's really no moral or ethical problems with that, in my mind.
You don't have to deal with your sick grandmother if you don't want, you can wash your hands and feet of her situation and the government will take care of her.
Prolife : life is a precious gift, so we have to respect her.
Prochoice, every child must have a future, He don't have to be doomed just at his beginning of his life. Having a child is a responsability, you don't just make a baby and leave him in the nature, it's a big responsability maybe the biggest for a human (and any kind of animal in general), you must take care of him, made his education ...If you cannot take your responsability of parent, perhaps abortion is not a so bad thing. Sometimes you have too make the lesser evil choice. If you don't want make evil choice : takes your precautions if you can .
For those who speak of murder, i'll just say that there is no precise moment when you can say that a foetus is a person. For me it's just a transition . For me a baby is just for his cortex aera like a computer with just an autoexe program that will evolve. Of course there is preimplemented soft in deep area of the brain, who controls the emotion, pleasure or pain and which are present very soon in the developpement of the foetus.
In the first day of life there is no brain, so it's difficult to say it's a person if you consider that consciensousness exist in brain. Days after days the foetus will evolve acquiring human capabilities and thus becoming more a person. The problem is that a foetus has the potential of any human regardless is age of developpement, so if you respect the life abortion is bad. In another way , we don't respect life too much, we kill others species, animal or vegetal in order to live. So we don't have to be too intransigeant. We have to be realistic if we want to survive.
Just an example , how many people here are for the war of US against terrorism : many i suppose. How many of the people who are for the war against terrorism are prolife : many i suppose too. But you know that every war brings innocents deaths : so your choice cannot be absolute, choice have to be realistic, in the case of war against terrorism, the US knows that they going to make a certain amount of innocent death among the afghanistan's population, but if US want to survive he has too make some choice.
Life is hard, sometimes you have to make some choice, not very nice. That's why i a m prochoice, but i prefer in the deep of my heart to be prolife (samething for the war).
<strong>Of course we know when life begins - conception.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, but I think most people are talking about what you might call personhood, and when people say life they often really mean personhood.
So when does personhood start?
1. at conception, too?
2. at the beginning of pregnancy?
3. at viability?
4. at birth?
5. at age 18?
6. 21?
7. are only mentally sound individuals really persons?
And even if we determine personhood, we still don't know the answer to the abortion question. It's not simply a question of determining the legal rights of one individual, but of balancing two that are intertwined:
1. the right to life of a (perhaps pre-personhood) pre-natal human life vs.
2. the right of adult persons to control their own bodies
If you give one right, you automatically take the other away.
The right to live is about as strong of a right as I can think of, but I think most people would agree the right to control one's own body is pretty high up there, too.
Thought question: We hear about forced abortions in China; which is more disgusting about that practice:
a. that pre-natal babies are being killed, or
b. that the gov't is violating the most fundamental rights of the parents?
If you're pro-life, I'd think a) would trump b). But does it really?
[QB] First of all, we are not talking about people, rather unborn infants. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
Let me first statte that this is directed at no one person, but at the pro-abortion mentality in general.
The first step to making killing a particular class of someone or something OK is to strip the humanity from it. That is how it is always done. Nazi's, KKK, Slave Owners, whatever. Babies are humans, and therefore killing them is killing people. Just because they are not born yet does not make them less of a person. Where does that mentality of it's just an unborn fetus change when you have a partial-birth abortion?
Men who sleep with women and get them pregnant and then split are scum. They are scum if they get them pregnant and are not 100% supportive. Scum. Pieces of shit. They are very responsible for that pregnancy, yet someone will tell a woman that she can't have an abortion while telling the man that he doesn't have to worry about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, I guess I misunderstood you then, and there's no reason for us to be arguing because we're in agreement here.
[quote]<strong>You sure you're not pro-choice?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am pro-choice (check my first post in this thread).
As an interesting, related side note: I'm also pro-death penalty, but I still think killing is wrong. And, as if that weren't enough I'm morally opposed to the idea of keeping animals in captivity for the sole purpose of killing them. Hell, I'm even morally opposed to keeping animals as pets (I think it's despicable what we do to horses), but I still eat meat because I like it too much to give up (and yes, I actually did try to go vegan once).
[quote]<strong>Let me rephrase, there are degrees of atrociousness to ending a baby's life through abortion?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not that the act itself becomes any less of a bad thing, but that the circumstances can sometimes make it somewhat?not completely unless the mother's life is at state?justified (in the same way that I would consider myself justified in killing someone who posed a threat to my life, although obviously not at the same level).
how to live their lives.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh yeah, I hate it when that happens. If a wanna go kill or rape someone, what right does someone else have to tell me that I can't do it? It's *my* life, and I'm gonna live it the way *I* want to.
Pro-choice, given that the options are not really "Abortion or Child", but, tragically often, "Legal Abortion or Back-Street Abortionist".
I have never found the lumping together of abortion and the death penalty as a single argument to be valid. My opposition to the DP is based around accepting the fallibility of the judicial process, and therefore avoiding irrevocable decisions. I don't like the idea that my government would have the right to kill me in error. However, I would have no objection to any convict choosing to be put to death, over lifetime incarceration.
Interestingly, here in the UK, you are most likely to be murdered by your mother, on the day you are born. That is the reality of the "choice" that many young women face; would you sentence these girls to death?
Comments
Too many babies anyway and, like seinfeld said, "I hate them, they are so immature!"
(My real feelings aren't so black and white guys...)
<strong>So killing "an unborn child" is not a matter of morality to you? I just cannot accept this kind of thinking.... So should people only be allowed to live if it is economically convenient for them to do so? What is it about an *unborn* child that makes it so different from a born child that it's life is at the mercy of its parent's convenience?
I really don't mean to misrepresent your stance on this, zonetuke, I'm just trying to flesh out its implications and foundation. Maybe you'ld like to clarify what makes abortion an a-moral decision, while murder clearly is a moral decision.... (if you believe that)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Solishu,
I would be opposed to an abortion if I were the father. It is wrong only for me. However, any other pregnancy is not for me to judge because of the unique physical configuration (a human inside of a human). All other situations I feel we can opine upon because these are instances whereby one human exists apart from another human (not physically bound). In summary, the decision to abort a pregnancy demands moral refection, but only by the parties involved.
You statement about economics is naive and I did not express that. First of all, we are not talking about people, rather unborn infants. Secondly, I used the adjectives "economic and social", not convenient. The economic and social reasons are many. However, most of these are substantial and are heavy stress factors in people lives. Convenience usually involves trivial matters.
The fact of the matter is that everyday women abort their pregnancies due to a mix of the following reasons: not capable of being a parent, not enough $, no father, medical hazards, do not wish to procreate, etc...
[ 11-15-2001: Message edited by: zonetuke ]</p>
I'm not following the "logic". We're talking about abortion, not statutory rape.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, but what I was disputing was someone's (I don't remember who) statement that any older man who impregnated a teenager was scum (or something to that effect.
[quote]Say an older teen is manipulated by an older man (happens everywhere everyday) and is cast out by her family as a whore?
Is it ok then since she's been through mental duress and severe emotional trauma.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think it's ok in any circumstances, but in situations such as these I think that it's less condemnable.
[quote]Pregnancy is punishment?<hr></blockquote>
If you've been forced into it against your will, don't want to be pregnant, don't want to have a baby, don't feel that you're ready to raise a child, and/or aren't capable of supporting a child: yes. Also, there's more to it that just "being pregnant". You have to deal with restricted abilities, hormonal imbalance, all sorts of other symptoms of pregnancy, then the pain of childbirth (sometimes described as forcing something the size of a basketball through a hole the size of a golfball) or of surgery. After that, even if you opt for adoption and don't have to go through the hardships of raising a child before you're ready you still have to deal with the mental and emotional anguish of giving your child away. That I would say is punishment, especially when forced on an undeserving, innocent young girl.
[quote]There are degrees of atrociousness in regards to a dead baby?<hr></blockquote>
Yes. Babies die all the time. If a baby dies of some childhood disease, or a birth defect, would you consider that an atrocity on the level of murdering another human being? Are SIDS and abortion on the same level?
[quote]Since it's about morality, wouldn't it be the moral thing for a rape victim to give birth to the child and give it a chance at life?<hr></blockquote>
The moral thing is to make a rape victim suffer further?
Oh, and don't give me that crap that you don't understand how someone can be pro life and pro death penalty. Out of the 4000 or so abortion threads that you've started or hijacked, I'm sure someone has explained to you the difference between killing for justice and killing innocents. Troll.
Only in the first trimester;
Pro government funding of contraceptives;
Pro free contraceptives distributed by the government to those who have a certain net anual income;
Pro more active distribution of knowledge on matters like contraceptives, safe sex and STDs.
That goes for any government. Except for maybe the Dutch, they seem to have it sorted out perfectly.
I started this thread because the other one got hijacked, I say it earlier in the thread. Use your reading skills.
And he said "pro-choice and anti-death penalty" not the other way around.
You didn't eat your Wheaties OR stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, did you?
Re: your sick old grandmother:
If she wants you to, absolutely. But at that point in her life she is a person with a history and who has lived 70+ years of life with family and whatnot. Far different from a developing fetus.
nonhuman:
[quote]Yes, but what I was disputing was someone's (I don't remember who) statement that any older man who impregnated a teenager was scum (or something to that effect.)<hr></blockquote>
Yeah that was me.
Men who sleep with women and get them pregnant and then split are scum. They are scum if they get them pregnant and are not 100% supportive. Scum. Pieces of shit. They are very responsible for that pregnancy, yet someone will tell a woman that she can't have an abortion while telling the man that he doesn't have to worry about it.
[quote]I don't think it's ok in any circumstances, but in situations such as these I think that it's less condemnable.<hr></blockquote>
You sure you're not pro-choice?
[quote]Yes. Babies die all the time.<hr></blockquote>
Let me rephrase, there are degrees of atrociousness to ending a baby's life through abortion?
[quote]
<strong>the FACTS are we don't really know when "life" is formed. We can however GUESS. That doesn't mean we are RIGHT. Saying otherwise makes you look foolish.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course we know when life begins - conception. And please don't tell me this is just my personal belief. This is an existential fact. The only reason why we are debating the matter is because we are talking about human life here and we are trying to determine whether or not there are circumstances in which we can choose to not protect individual human lives. The guesswork people are engaging in is where to draw the line. But that line isn't about when life begins. It's about when we all will agree human life should be legally protected.
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
[quote]And he said "pro-choice and anti-death penalty" not the other way around.<hr></blockquote>D'oh! Ok, I'm a dope.
[quote]If she wants you to, absolutely.<hr></blockquote>She doesn't want to. I want to kill her because:
a) She's a financial burden
b) She's a useless human being
or
c) I just don't want to deal with the responsibility.
[quote]But at that point in her life she is a person with a history and who has lived 70+ years of life with family and whatnot. Far different from a developing fetus.<hr></blockquote>Yes, far different from a fetus. But why is it wrong to kill her? She's probably less of a human than this fetus will be. She's living on a respirator, she can't really move etc...I'd argue that the fetus with 70+ years of potential is more valuable than a person with maybe 6-12 months worth of bed ridden life.
On the topic of rape and incest, why would it be so horrible to have the woman bring the baby to term and then put it up for adoption? I never see anyone mention this option. I would think that having a baby and giving it to loving parents that can't conceive would be quite a rewarding experience. Making good out of a bad situation.
My biggest problem with abortion (besides the whole murdering a baby thing) is the fact that it cheapens respect for life. Face the facts. It started with Roe v. Wade and has progressed to partial birth abortion (which is murder, plain, simple and gruesome!) I'm sure if I told you in the 70's that we would be fighting for the right to drill into a partially born human being that you would have laughed at me and called me a right wing extremist.
So now that we have sunk to this low, how much of a stretch will it be to start allowing other forms of murder, like the situation I describe above with my grandmother. Dr Kevorkian started it, where will it end? (Don't hijack this thread into a "right to die" argument please. I was just making a point.)
It's wrong to kill her because she's a human being. Just like it's morally wrong to abort a fetus.
[quote]She's probably less of a human than this fetus will be.<hr></blockquote>
Howso?
I'm not following what you're trying to say.
[quote]On the topic of rape and incest, why would it be so horrible to have the woman bring the baby to term and then put it up for adoption? I never see anyone mention this option. I would think that having a baby and giving it to loving parents that can't conceive would be quite a rewarding experience. Making good out of a bad situation.<hr></blockquote>
Should she be legally obligated to bring to term a pregnancy that was forced on her?
[quote]My biggest problem with abortion (besides the whole murdering a baby thing) is the fact that it cheapens respect for life. Face the facts.<hr></blockquote>
So does the death penalty. So does shooting someone who is stealing your car stereo. Those aren't illegal, though.
[quote]So now that we have sunk to this low, how much of a stretch will it be to start allowing other forms of murder, like the situation I describe above with my grandmother. Dr Kevorkian started it, where will it end? (Don't hijack this thread into a "right to die" argument please. I was just making a point.)<hr></blockquote>
Mercy killings are asked for, so there's really no moral or ethical problems with that, in my mind.
You don't have to deal with your sick grandmother if you don't want, you can wash your hands and feet of her situation and the government will take care of her.
Prolife : life is a precious gift, so we have to respect her.
Prochoice, every child must have a future, He don't have to be doomed just at his beginning of his life. Having a child is a responsability, you don't just make a baby and leave him in the nature, it's a big responsability maybe the biggest for a human (and any kind of animal in general), you must take care of him, made his education ...If you cannot take your responsability of parent, perhaps abortion is not a so bad thing. Sometimes you have too make the lesser evil choice. If you don't want make evil choice : takes your precautions if you can .
For those who speak of murder, i'll just say that there is no precise moment when you can say that a foetus is a person. For me it's just a transition . For me a baby is just for his cortex aera like a computer with just an autoexe program that will evolve. Of course there is preimplemented soft in deep area of the brain, who controls the emotion, pleasure or pain and which are present very soon in the developpement of the foetus.
In the first day of life there is no brain, so it's difficult to say it's a person if you consider that consciensousness exist in brain. Days after days the foetus will evolve acquiring human capabilities and thus becoming more a person. The problem is that a foetus has the potential of any human regardless is age of developpement, so if you respect the life abortion is bad. In another way , we don't respect life too much, we kill others species, animal or vegetal in order to live. So we don't have to be too intransigeant. We have to be realistic if we want to survive.
Just an example , how many people here are for the war of US against terrorism : many i suppose. How many of the people who are for the war against terrorism are prolife : many i suppose too. But you know that every war brings innocents deaths : so your choice cannot be absolute, choice have to be realistic, in the case of war against terrorism, the US knows that they going to make a certain amount of innocent death among the afghanistan's population, but if US want to survive he has too make some choice.
Life is hard, sometimes you have to make some choice, not very nice. That's why i a m prochoice, but i prefer in the deep of my heart to be prolife (samething for the war).
[ 11-16-2001: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
It always amuses me when complete strangers
believe they have some right to tell others
how to live their lives.
It doesn't matter if it is euthanasia, or abortion, it is a personal decision, and you
have no say in it, unless you are the partner.
It always amuses me when complete strangers
believe they have some right to tell others
how to live their lives.
It doesn't matter if it is euthanasia, or abortion, it is a personal decision, and you
have no say in it, unless you are the partner.
<strong>Of course we know when life begins - conception.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, but I think most people are talking about what you might call personhood, and when people say life they often really mean personhood.
So when does personhood start?
1. at conception, too?
2. at the beginning of pregnancy?
3. at viability?
4. at birth?
5. at age 18?
6. 21?
7. are only mentally sound individuals really persons?
And even if we determine personhood, we still don't know the answer to the abortion question. It's not simply a question of determining the legal rights of one individual, but of balancing two that are intertwined:
1. the right to life of a (perhaps pre-personhood) pre-natal human life vs.
2. the right of adult persons to control their own bodies
If you give one right, you automatically take the other away.
The right to live is about as strong of a right as I can think of, but I think most people would agree the right to control one's own body is pretty high up there, too.
Thought question: We hear about forced abortions in China; which is more disgusting about that practice:
a. that pre-natal babies are being killed, or
b. that the gov't is violating the most fundamental rights of the parents?
If you're pro-life, I'd think a) would trump b). But does it really?
[QB] First of all, we are not talking about people, rather unborn infants. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
Let me first statte that this is directed at no one person, but at the pro-abortion mentality in general.
The first step to making killing a particular class of someone or something OK is to strip the humanity from it. That is how it is always done. Nazi's, KKK, Slave Owners, whatever. Babies are humans, and therefore killing them is killing people. Just because they are not born yet does not make them less of a person. Where does that mentality of it's just an unborn fetus change when you have a partial-birth abortion?
<strong>Thought question: We hear about forced abortions in China; which is more disgusting about that practice:
a. that pre-natal babies are being killed, or
b. that the gov't is violating the most fundamental rights of the parents?
If you're pro-life, I'd think a) would trump b). But does it really?</strong><hr></blockquote>
They are both wrong. China is a human rights nightmare anyhow. But that is another thread altogether.
Rarely if ever does any real good come from an abortion.
<strong>Yeah that was me.
Men who sleep with women and get them pregnant and then split are scum. They are scum if they get them pregnant and are not 100% supportive. Scum. Pieces of shit. They are very responsible for that pregnancy, yet someone will tell a woman that she can't have an abortion while telling the man that he doesn't have to worry about it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, I guess I misunderstood you then, and there's no reason for us to be arguing because we're in agreement here.
[quote]<strong>You sure you're not pro-choice?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am pro-choice (check my first post in this thread).
As an interesting, related side note: I'm also pro-death penalty, but I still think killing is wrong. And, as if that weren't enough I'm morally opposed to the idea of keeping animals in captivity for the sole purpose of killing them. Hell, I'm even morally opposed to keeping animals as pets (I think it's despicable what we do to horses), but I still eat meat because I like it too much to give up (and yes, I actually did try to go vegan once).
[quote]<strong>Let me rephrase, there are degrees of atrociousness to ending a baby's life through abortion?</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not that the act itself becomes any less of a bad thing, but that the circumstances can sometimes make it somewhat?not completely unless the mother's life is at state?justified (in the same way that I would consider myself justified in killing someone who posed a threat to my life, although obviously not at the same level).
<strong>pro choice.
It always amuses me when complete strangers
believe they have some right to tell others
how to live their lives.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh yeah, I hate it when that happens. If a wanna go kill or rape someone, what right does someone else have to tell me that I can't do it? It's *my* life, and I'm gonna live it the way *I* want to.
You see why that line of reasoning doesn't work?
I have never found the lumping together of abortion and the death penalty as a single argument to be valid. My opposition to the DP is based around accepting the fallibility of the judicial process, and therefore avoiding irrevocable decisions. I don't like the idea that my government would have the right to kill me in error. However, I would have no objection to any convict choosing to be put to death, over lifetime incarceration.
Interestingly, here in the UK, you are most likely to be murdered by your mother, on the day you are born. That is the reality of the "choice" that many young women face; would you sentence these girls to death?