BTW, we are talking abortion, not the murder of adults or slaves.
Let's keep the argument within context, shall we?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There was a time when slaves were not considered persons and so killing them was not legally sanctioned. Seems to me more than a little relevant to this discussion although I can understand why someone who is pro-abortion wouldn't want anyone to notice the obvious parallels.
<strong>I can understand why someone who is pro-abortion wouldn't want anyone to notice the obvious parallels.</strong><hr></blockquote>And I can understand why someone who is pro-life would try to demean their political opponents in this sleazy manner. Questioning motives, accusations, analogies to slavery - these are the tactics of the morally virtuous? [quote]The Attorney General of Nebraska specifically interpreted the statute to rule out a ban on D&E.<hr></blockquote>That means nothing. The Supreme Court has to evaluate the text of the law - a new AG could come in with a different interpretation at any time.
<strong>And I can understand why someone who is pro-life would try to demean their political opponents in this sleazy manner. Questioning motives, accusations, analogies to slavery - these are the tactics of the morally virtuous? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry if you don't like it but the analogy fits. Glad to hear how much you don't like sleazy tactics. I'll remember that next time I'm lumped in with foreign terrorists and abortion clinic bombers. As for questioning motives you've done more than your share.
[quote]<strong>That means nothing. The Supreme Court has to evaluate the text of the law - a new AG could come in with a different interpretation at any time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It means plenty. The whole structure of abortion law is based on Supreme Court precedent.
[quote]Samantha then I guess we should just make murder legal too then. I mean people are going to do it anyway! After all the reason why murder is illegal is cause of moral reasons is it not? While I think abortions should be legal I don't think that is a very good explanation as to why they should be.. I don't however think abortions should be used as a form of birth control. It's all about taking responsibilities for your own actions. Most of the abortions performed today are ones used as birth control. BTW calling a life a "fetus" doesn't make it less of a life. It's just more "feel good" tactics to sooth one's conscious. 'I'm ok your ok" And yes I think a man should have some say in it. After all the "fetus" is just not a part of her.. it also is a part of him too.<hr></blockquote>
It is plain that our difference of opinion is due to the fact that you believe that a fetus is as much a human being as an independent person. I do not share this view:
Don't forget that the vast majority (94% of abortions since 1972) as reported by Heritage House, a conservative "Pro-Life" site, occur before the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus at this point or earlier stands little or no zero chance of survival outside of the mother's uterus, and as such it is a stretch to classify fetuses of this term, or earlier term, as fully-formed viable human beings. Your charge of 'murder' is a response which smacks of emotional blackmail, rather than rationality.
Late abortions are a very small minority, thankfully. They are a messy, dangerous procedure, and are usually performed as a last resort, when either the fetus is malformed or otherwise compromised, or the health of the mother is at risk.
If I was to get into an emotional response regarding 'murder' and its 'legality', then there are numerous avenues open to that! Look at "capital punishment": this is no better than state-sanctioned coldblooded and premeditated murder. What about those 750,000 innocent Iraqi children who have died of starvation due to "legal" United Nations sanctions, which are supposedly aimed at unseating Saddam Hussein, yet he continues to sit pretty in the lap of royal luxury in his palaces? I could quite as easily contend that these kids (independent, sentient, self-aware humans, not fetuses) have also been murdered.
Why is it that "Pro-Lifers" are so concerned with unborn fetuses, yet at the same time show zero interest in the plight of the legions of children who are born to "parents" who are barely qualified to look after themselves, let alone take on the massive responsibility of bringing new lives into a already overpopulated world?
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>
It is plain that our difference of opinion is due to the fact that you believe that a fetus is as much a human being as an independent person. I do not share this view:
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Is it not a living being? Are you not terminating it's life when you get a abortion? Thems feel good tactics.
[quote]<strong>
Don't forget that the vast majority (94% of abortions since 1972) as reported by Heritage House, a conservative "Pro-Life" site, occur before the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus at this point or earlier stands little or no zero chance of survival outside of the mother's uterus, and as such it is a stretch to classify fetuses of this term, or earlier term, as fully-formed viable human beings. Your charge of 'murder' is a response which smacks of emotional blackmail, rather than rationality.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Guess what when a baby is first born it has little chance of surviving on it's own either. That my friend is another bad comparison. Actually until kids are much older can they survive on their own. Are these kids not human or people too?
[quote]<strong>
Late abortions are a very small minority, thankfully. They are a messy, dangerous procedure, and are usually performed as a last resort, when either the fetus is malformed or otherwise compromised, or the health of the mother is at risk.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Sorry to tell you ALL abortions are messy and can be dangerous. Yes even when you take that "pill" to get rid of it.. it comes plopping out of the toilet. I was comforting a gal that was going through this. She immediately got sick and threw up after she saw what had came out. She won't talk about it either.
[quote]<strong>
If I was to get into an emotional response regarding 'murder' and its 'legality', then there are numerous avenues open to that! Look at "capital punishment": this is no better than state-sanctioned coldblooded and premeditated murder.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
While I agree with you that non of us have the right to put another person to death. There is a big difference here Samantha. Babies didn't make a choice to be aborted. They didn't do anything which to deserve such a thing. Murderers on death row however KNEW before they committed the crime that indeed they could be put to death for it.. but did it anyhow. Again it's about taking responsibilities for one's actions.
[quote]<strong>
What about those 750,000 innocent Iraqi children who have died of starvation due to "legal" United Nations sanctions, which are supposedly aimed at unseating Saddam Hussein, yet he continues to sit pretty in the lap of royal luxury in his palaces? I could quite as easily contend that these kids (independent, sentient, self-aware humans, not fetuses) have also been murdered.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yeah blame the UN! Not Saddam! What does This have to do with the subject anyhow Samantha? That was war. Big difference there.
[quote]<strong>
Why is it that "Pro-Lifers" are so concerned with unborn fetuses, yet at the same time show zero interest in the plight of the legions of children who are born to "parents" who are barely qualified to look after themselves, let alone take on the massive responsibility of bringing new lives into a already overpopulated world?</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I am not saying abortions should be made illegal. I think the use of abortions for birth control should be. These people your talking about shouldn't be having sex that causes pregnancy if they don't want the kid. Fact is most abortions used as birth control are just that. They never used any birth control in the first place. When a society doesn't have to take responsibilities for their own actions that society will crumble. A life is a life is a life. This "Oh it's not a real person it's only a fetus" is feel good tactics. "It's ok to kill the baby inside of you cause it's not really a baby look!" It's a living being just like you and me. It has consciousness. And if abortion isn't killing this consciousness then what is?
Sinewave, you can moralize till kingdom come, and it is *not* going to stop people from having unprotected sex in unguarded or intoxicated moments and consequently having abortions.
Rather than spouting crocodile tears over the fate of fetuses, let us concentrate on bring more women into the education system. When women get educated, we tend to NOT have arbitrary, unprotected sex; when we get educated, we become far more aware of the consequences of the actions of the woman AND the man. And when many women who are uneducated come from ethnic backgrounds where MEN totally rule the household and women are regarded as chattel, (specially prevalent in black, latino, muslim (and also some white) communities, it is hardly surprising that that there are people having unintended pregnancies, where the resources of many of these folks are barely enough to support themselves, let alone bring up a family in conditions suited to domestic conditions which only result in yet more 'homeboy' culture. Add to that an all-reaching advertising industry that uses sex, both in blatant and subtle formats, in all medias, to sell every product known to humankind, which of course include the uneducated, the ignorant and those with drink and drug habits etc etc...and what is going to happen?
Yes, it is so easy for we relatively educated comfortable (mostly suburban/ middle class) people who have computers and take an interest in social and political affairs, to keep crying out about women being "responsible for their actions". Just try selling that to folk in regions of the world where women are treated worse than animals, where so many people are not literate, where alcoholism, drug addiction and poverty is endemic, where family planning is banned by the Roman Catholic church, etc etc. There are parts of rich America where these conditions exist.
Yes call me a bleeding heart if you like, but putting this health issue into the hands of law enforcement agencies will make things far worse, and will not reduce the number of unwanted or unintentional pregnancies.
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Sinewave, you can moralize till kingdom come, and it is *not* going to stop people from having unprotected sex in unguarded or intoxicated moments and consequently having abortions.</strong><hr></blockquote> Right just like me saying murder is bad.. there will still be murderers.
<strong> [quote]
Rather than spouting crocodile tears over the fate of fetuses,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not spouting crocodile tears.. just stating facts mam.
<strong> [quote]
let us concentrate on bring more women into the education system. When women get educated, we tend to NOT have arbitrary, unprotected sex;
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So when every one is educated abortions used as birth control will stop or become less frequent? I Hardly think so.
<strong> [quote]
when we get educated, we become far more aware of the consequences of the actions of the woman AND the man.
</strong><hr></blockquote> Oh don't get me wrong. I am not saying it's just the woman's responsibility to make sure she doesn't get pregnant. I think males should be more responsible for their actions as well. Especially the dead beats that go around impregnating 5 or 6 girls at a time and not supporting their kids. They are known as punks. Some one the lowest forms of life.
<strong> [quote]
And when many women who are uneducated come from ethnic backgrounds where MEN totally rule the household and women are regarded as chattel, (specially prevalent in black, latino, muslim (and also some white) communities,</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey this is the US.. if the woman doesn't like her situation she can leave. This isn't some middle eastern country where women have to hide their faces and are not supposed to talk. Women DO have choices. If your a woman and get treated badly by your family or spouse and you stick around I have no sympathy.
<strong> [quote]
it is hardly surprising that that there are people having unintended pregnancies, where the resources of many of these folks are barely enough to support themselves, let alone bring up a family in conditions suited to domestic conditions which only result in yet more 'homeboy' culture.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
These same people can get free birth control. There is no excuse. And what is this "homeboy" culture? Seems to me you have a chip on your shoulder about the male. Your not one of those girls that call themselves Womyn are you? Get off the high horse. Women are just as evil as men.
<strong> [quote]
Add to that an all-reaching advertising industry that uses sex, both in blatant and subtle formats, in all medias, to sell every product known to humankind, which of course include the uneducated, the ignorant and those with drink and drug habits etc etc...and what is going to happen?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
S C A P E G O A T. This is all about the liberal "feel good" "I am ok your ok" mentality that supports not taking responsibilities for ones actions. "The Devil Made me do it!"
<strong> [quote]
Yes, it is so easy for we relatively educated comfortable (mostly suburban/ middle class) people who have computers and take an interest in social and political affairs, to keep crying out about women being "responsible for their actions".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't remember pointing out just women needed to be responsible. I don't know many people that don't know what causes pregnancy. Poor or Rich.
<strong> [quote]
Just try selling that to folk in regions of the world where women are treated worse than animals, where so many people are not literate, where alcoholism, drug addiction and poverty is endemic, where family planning is banned by the Roman Catholic church, etc etc. There are parts of rich America where these conditions exist.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Move. And no one is making you be a Roman Catholic. Roman Catholic's also ban abortions too. More excuses.
<strong> [quote]
Yes call me a bleeding heart if you like, but putting this health issue into the hands of law enforcement agencies will make things far worse, and will not reduce the number of unwanted or unintentional pregnancies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If abortion wasn't a choice as a form of birth control you'd see a lot more girls concerned about using birth control. That is a no-brainer.
I am curious.. if aborting a baby cause it's a "fetus" and not a baby is ok.. then can I go out and destroy a bunch of spotted owl eggs? After all they aren't spotted owls yet!
<strong>Whisper, yes you can try to stop a robbery/murder/whatever.
That doesn't mean you can.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh?
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>I am curious.. if aborting a baby cause it's a "fetus" and not a baby is ok.. then can I go out and destroy a bunch of spotted owl eggs? After all they aren't spotted owls yet!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes. While we're at it, can we go get some bald eagele eggs too? I hear those make great omlets.
It's also not morally correct to call a woman a whore or slut just because she choses to sleep around. That is her body she is doing it with. No one else is hurt by a woman sleeping around. You can argue that once she gets pregnant it does involve other people.
That still doesn't make her a whore or a slut.
I find it highly amusing that some people spend their lives lecturing others about what is wrong and right but seem to be blind to their own shortcomings at the same time.
<strong>It's also not morally correct to call a woman a whore or slut just because she choses to sleep around.[quote][qb]
You mean Politically Correct... not morally.
[QUOTE][qb]
That is her body she is doing it with. No one else is hurt by a woman sleeping around. You can argue that once she gets pregnant it does involve other people.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Promiscuity breeds social disease. That my friend isn't disputable.
[quote]<strong>
That still doesn't make her a whore or a slut.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
It makes her a woman with little self value or one who doesn't think much of herself.
[quote]<strong>
I find it highly amusing that some people spend their lives lecturing others about what is wrong and right but seem to be blind to their own shortcomings at the same time.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh I admit I do wrong. All the time. and I am not lecturing anyone. have you seen my point my finger at anyone and call them a whore? I was just speaking the truth without the rose colored glasses that is Political Correctness.
[quote]<strong>
I believe it is called being ignorant. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
No .. ignorance means Lacking education or knowledge. You mean they are being hypocrites.
<strong>Pro Choice until the growing entity has become human.
During the cellular period, it is not a human.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a part of the human species.
Just like babies are not fully developed they are still humans. It's still a life. It grows it has a conscious. Sugar coating things makes it no better.
It is interesting that a small group are trying to move this argument away from abortion, and onto murder.
It's a well worn path of misdirection, and dishonesty.
The anti-euthanasia lobby have used this dishonesty to their benefit, as have the anti-abortion lobby.
Self determination seems to mean nothing to these people.
It's quite amazing that, although living in the land of the free, they feel thay have a right to dictate what a complete stranger can do to her own body.
Free, my ar*e.
If they want to discuss murder they can always start the AI murder thread.
<strong>It is interesting that a small group are trying to move this argument away from abortion, and onto murder.
It's a well worn path of misdirection, and dishonesty.
The anti-euthanasia lobby have used this dishonesty to their benefit, as have the anti-abortion lobby.
Self determination seems to mean nothing to these people.
It's quite amazing that, although living in the land of the free, they feel thay have a right to dictate what a complete stranger can do to her own body.
Free, my ar*e.
If they want to discuss murder they can always start the AI murder thread.
Your killing a living being aren't you? It's not dishonesty. It's being HONEST and NOT sugar coating it with saying things like "Oh it's JUST a fetus so it's OK!"
<strong>It's being HONEST and NOT sugar coating it with saying things like "Oh it's JUST a fetus so it's OK!" </strong><hr></blockquote>The fact is, fetus is the proper term (and embryo before that, and zygote before that) in a medical context. Abortion is a medical procedure, so it's not inappropriate or dishonest to use that term. The term was not invented to make abortion seem OK.
Are you saying that the use of the term "baby," which conjures up images of a 3-month old child in booties, isn't used by the pro-life side intentionally? Or the term partial-birth abortion, which was invented by the pro-life groups?
<strong>The fact is, fetus is the proper term (and embryo before that, and zygote before that) in a medical context. Abortion is a medical procedure, so it's not inappropriate or dishonest to use that term. The term was not invented to make abortion seem OK.
Are you saying that the use of the term "baby," which conjures up images of a 3-month old child in booties, isn't used by the pro-life side intentionally? Or the term partial-birth abortion, which was invented by the pro-life groups?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>BTW, we are talking abortion, not the murder of adults or slaves.
Let's keep the argument within context, shall we?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh it's ok to murder lives as long as it isn't a adult?
Glad to know that.
<strong>
BTW, we are talking abortion, not the murder of adults or slaves.
Let's keep the argument within context, shall we?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There was a time when slaves were not considered persons and so killing them was not legally sanctioned. Seems to me more than a little relevant to this discussion although I can understand why someone who is pro-abortion wouldn't want anyone to notice the obvious parallels.
<strong>I can understand why someone who is pro-abortion wouldn't want anyone to notice the obvious parallels.</strong><hr></blockquote>And I can understand why someone who is pro-life would try to demean their political opponents in this sleazy manner. Questioning motives, accusations, analogies to slavery - these are the tactics of the morally virtuous? [quote]The Attorney General of Nebraska specifically interpreted the statute to rule out a ban on D&E.<hr></blockquote>That means nothing. The Supreme Court has to evaluate the text of the law - a new AG could come in with a different interpretation at any time.
<strong>And I can understand why someone who is pro-life would try to demean their political opponents in this sleazy manner. Questioning motives, accusations, analogies to slavery - these are the tactics of the morally virtuous? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry if you don't like it but the analogy fits. Glad to hear how much you don't like sleazy tactics. I'll remember that next time I'm lumped in with foreign terrorists and abortion clinic bombers. As for questioning motives you've done more than your share.
[quote]<strong>That means nothing. The Supreme Court has to evaluate the text of the law - a new AG could come in with a different interpretation at any time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It means plenty. The whole structure of abortion law is based on Supreme Court precedent.
<strong>It means plenty. The whole structure of abortion law is based on Supreme Court precedent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is this a non-sequitur?
It is plain that our difference of opinion is due to the fact that you believe that a fetus is as much a human being as an independent person. I do not share this view:
Don't forget that the vast majority (94% of abortions since 1972) as reported by Heritage House, a conservative "Pro-Life" site, occur before the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus at this point or earlier stands little or no zero chance of survival outside of the mother's uterus, and as such it is a stretch to classify fetuses of this term, or earlier term, as fully-formed viable human beings. Your charge of 'murder' is a response which smacks of emotional blackmail, rather than rationality.
Late abortions are a very small minority, thankfully. They are a messy, dangerous procedure, and are usually performed as a last resort, when either the fetus is malformed or otherwise compromised, or the health of the mother is at risk.
If I was to get into an emotional response regarding 'murder' and its 'legality', then there are numerous avenues open to that! Look at "capital punishment": this is no better than state-sanctioned coldblooded and premeditated murder. What about those 750,000 innocent Iraqi children who have died of starvation due to "legal" United Nations sanctions, which are supposedly aimed at unseating Saddam Hussein, yet he continues to sit pretty in the lap of royal luxury in his palaces? I could quite as easily contend that these kids (independent, sentient, self-aware humans, not fetuses) have also been murdered.
Why is it that "Pro-Lifers" are so concerned with unborn fetuses, yet at the same time show zero interest in the plight of the legions of children who are born to "parents" who are barely qualified to look after themselves, let alone take on the massive responsibility of bringing new lives into a already overpopulated world?
<strong>
It is plain that our difference of opinion is due to the fact that you believe that a fetus is as much a human being as an independent person. I do not share this view:
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Is it not a living being? Are you not terminating it's life when you get a abortion? Thems feel good tactics.
[quote]<strong>
Don't forget that the vast majority (94% of abortions since 1972) as reported by Heritage House, a conservative "Pro-Life" site, occur before the 4th month of pregnancy. A fetus at this point or earlier stands little or no zero chance of survival outside of the mother's uterus, and as such it is a stretch to classify fetuses of this term, or earlier term, as fully-formed viable human beings. Your charge of 'murder' is a response which smacks of emotional blackmail, rather than rationality.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Guess what when a baby is first born it has little chance of surviving on it's own either. That my friend is another bad comparison. Actually until kids are much older can they survive on their own. Are these kids not human or people too?
[quote]<strong>
Late abortions are a very small minority, thankfully. They are a messy, dangerous procedure, and are usually performed as a last resort, when either the fetus is malformed or otherwise compromised, or the health of the mother is at risk.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Sorry to tell you ALL abortions are messy and can be dangerous. Yes even when you take that "pill" to get rid of it.. it comes plopping out of the toilet. I was comforting a gal that was going through this. She immediately got sick and threw up after she saw what had came out. She won't talk about it either.
[quote]<strong>
If I was to get into an emotional response regarding 'murder' and its 'legality', then there are numerous avenues open to that! Look at "capital punishment": this is no better than state-sanctioned coldblooded and premeditated murder.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
While I agree with you that non of us have the right to put another person to death. There is a big difference here Samantha. Babies didn't make a choice to be aborted. They didn't do anything which to deserve such a thing. Murderers on death row however KNEW before they committed the crime that indeed they could be put to death for it.. but did it anyhow. Again it's about taking responsibilities for one's actions.
[quote]<strong>
What about those 750,000 innocent Iraqi children who have died of starvation due to "legal" United Nations sanctions, which are supposedly aimed at unseating Saddam Hussein, yet he continues to sit pretty in the lap of royal luxury in his palaces? I could quite as easily contend that these kids (independent, sentient, self-aware humans, not fetuses) have also been murdered.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yeah blame the UN! Not Saddam! What does This have to do with the subject anyhow Samantha? That was war. Big difference there.
[quote]<strong>
Why is it that "Pro-Lifers" are so concerned with unborn fetuses, yet at the same time show zero interest in the plight of the legions of children who are born to "parents" who are barely qualified to look after themselves, let alone take on the massive responsibility of bringing new lives into a already overpopulated world?</strong><hr></blockquote>
While I am not saying abortions should be made illegal. I think the use of abortions for birth control should be. These people your talking about shouldn't be having sex that causes pregnancy if they don't want the kid. Fact is most abortions used as birth control are just that. They never used any birth control in the first place. When a society doesn't have to take responsibilities for their own actions that society will crumble. A life is a life is a life. This "Oh it's not a real person it's only a fetus" is feel good tactics. "It's ok to kill the baby inside of you cause it's not really a baby look!" It's a living being just like you and me. It has consciousness. And if abortion isn't killing this consciousness then what is?
Rather than spouting crocodile tears over the fate of fetuses, let us concentrate on bring more women into the education system. When women get educated, we tend to NOT have arbitrary, unprotected sex; when we get educated, we become far more aware of the consequences of the actions of the woman AND the man. And when many women who are uneducated come from ethnic backgrounds where MEN totally rule the household and women are regarded as chattel, (specially prevalent in black, latino, muslim (and also some white) communities, it is hardly surprising that that there are people having unintended pregnancies, where the resources of many of these folks are barely enough to support themselves, let alone bring up a family in conditions suited to domestic conditions which only result in yet more 'homeboy' culture. Add to that an all-reaching advertising industry that uses sex, both in blatant and subtle formats, in all medias, to sell every product known to humankind, which of course include the uneducated, the ignorant and those with drink and drug habits etc etc...and what is going to happen?
Yes, it is so easy for we relatively educated comfortable (mostly suburban/ middle class) people who have computers and take an interest in social and political affairs, to keep crying out about women being "responsible for their actions". Just try selling that to folk in regions of the world where women are treated worse than animals, where so many people are not literate, where alcoholism, drug addiction and poverty is endemic, where family planning is banned by the Roman Catholic church, etc etc. There are parts of rich America where these conditions exist.
Yes call me a bleeding heart if you like, but putting this health issue into the hands of law enforcement agencies will make things far worse, and will not reduce the number of unwanted or unintentional pregnancies.
<strong>Sinewave, you can moralize till kingdom come, and it is *not* going to stop people from having unprotected sex in unguarded or intoxicated moments and consequently having abortions.</strong><hr></blockquote> Right just like me saying murder is bad.. there will still be murderers.
<strong> [quote]
Rather than spouting crocodile tears over the fate of fetuses,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not spouting crocodile tears.. just stating facts mam.
<strong> [quote]
let us concentrate on bring more women into the education system. When women get educated, we tend to NOT have arbitrary, unprotected sex;
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So when every one is educated abortions used as birth control will stop or become less frequent? I Hardly think so.
<strong> [quote]
when we get educated, we become far more aware of the consequences of the actions of the woman AND the man.
</strong><hr></blockquote> Oh don't get me wrong. I am not saying it's just the woman's responsibility to make sure she doesn't get pregnant. I think males should be more responsible for their actions as well. Especially the dead beats that go around impregnating 5 or 6 girls at a time and not supporting their kids. They are known as punks. Some one the lowest forms of life.
<strong> [quote]
And when many women who are uneducated come from ethnic backgrounds where MEN totally rule the household and women are regarded as chattel, (specially prevalent in black, latino, muslim (and also some white) communities,</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey this is the US.. if the woman doesn't like her situation she can leave. This isn't some middle eastern country where women have to hide their faces and are not supposed to talk. Women DO have choices. If your a woman and get treated badly by your family or spouse and you stick around I have no sympathy.
<strong> [quote]
it is hardly surprising that that there are people having unintended pregnancies, where the resources of many of these folks are barely enough to support themselves, let alone bring up a family in conditions suited to domestic conditions which only result in yet more 'homeboy' culture.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
These same people can get free birth control. There is no excuse. And what is this "homeboy" culture? Seems to me you have a chip on your shoulder about the male. Your not one of those girls that call themselves Womyn are you?
<strong> [quote]
Add to that an all-reaching advertising industry that uses sex, both in blatant and subtle formats, in all medias, to sell every product known to humankind, which of course include the uneducated, the ignorant and those with drink and drug habits etc etc...and what is going to happen?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
S C A P E G O A T. This is all about the liberal "feel good" "I am ok your ok" mentality that supports not taking responsibilities for ones actions. "The Devil Made me do it!"
<strong> [quote]
Yes, it is so easy for we relatively educated comfortable (mostly suburban/ middle class) people who have computers and take an interest in social and political affairs, to keep crying out about women being "responsible for their actions".
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't remember pointing out just women needed to be responsible. I don't know many people that don't know what causes pregnancy. Poor or Rich.
<strong> [quote]
Just try selling that to folk in regions of the world where women are treated worse than animals, where so many people are not literate, where alcoholism, drug addiction and poverty is endemic, where family planning is banned by the Roman Catholic church, etc etc. There are parts of rich America where these conditions exist.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Move. And no one is making you be a Roman Catholic. Roman Catholic's also ban abortions too. More excuses.
<strong> [quote]
Yes call me a bleeding heart if you like, but putting this health issue into the hands of law enforcement agencies will make things far worse, and will not reduce the number of unwanted or unintentional pregnancies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If abortion wasn't a choice as a form of birth control you'd see a lot more girls concerned about using birth control. That is a no-brainer.
<strong>Whisper, yes you can try to stop a robbery/murder/whatever.
That doesn't mean you can.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Huh?
[quote]Originally posted by Sinewave:
<strong>I am curious.. if aborting a baby cause it's a "fetus" and not a baby is ok.. then can I go out and destroy a bunch of spotted owl eggs? After all they aren't spotted owls yet!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes. While we're at it, can we go get some bald eagele eggs too? I hear those make great omlets.
That still doesn't make her a whore or a slut.
I find it highly amusing that some people spend their lives lecturing others about what is wrong and right but seem to be blind to their own shortcomings at the same time.
I believe it is called being ignorant. :cool:
During the cellular period, it is not a human.
<strong>It's also not morally correct to call a woman a whore or slut just because she choses to sleep around.[quote][qb]
You mean Politically Correct... not morally.
[QUOTE][qb]
That is her body she is doing it with. No one else is hurt by a woman sleeping around. You can argue that once she gets pregnant it does involve other people.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Promiscuity breeds social disease. That my friend isn't disputable.
[quote]<strong>
That still doesn't make her a whore or a slut.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
It makes her a woman with little self value or one who doesn't think much of herself.
[quote]<strong>
I find it highly amusing that some people spend their lives lecturing others about what is wrong and right but seem to be blind to their own shortcomings at the same time.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh I admit I do wrong. All the time. and I am not lecturing anyone. have you seen my point my finger at anyone and call them a whore? I was just speaking the truth without the rose colored glasses that is Political Correctness.
[quote]<strong>
I believe it is called being ignorant. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
No .. ignorance means Lacking education or knowledge. You mean they are being hypocrites.
<strong>Pro Choice until the growing entity has become human.
During the cellular period, it is not a human.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just like babies are not fully developed they are still humans. It's still a life. It grows it has a conscious. Sugar coating things makes it no better.
It's a well worn path of misdirection, and dishonesty.
The anti-euthanasia lobby have used this dishonesty to their benefit, as have the anti-abortion lobby.
Self determination seems to mean nothing to these people.
It's quite amazing that, although living in the land of the free, they feel thay have a right to dictate what a complete stranger can do to her own body.
Free, my ar*e.
If they want to discuss murder they can always start the AI murder thread.
[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: xenu ]</p>
<strong>It is interesting that a small group are trying to move this argument away from abortion, and onto murder.
It's a well worn path of misdirection, and dishonesty.
The anti-euthanasia lobby have used this dishonesty to their benefit, as have the anti-abortion lobby.
Self determination seems to mean nothing to these people.
It's quite amazing that, although living in the land of the free, they feel thay have a right to dictate what a complete stranger can do to her own body.
Free, my ar*e.
If they want to discuss murder they can always start the AI murder thread.
[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: xenu ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your killing a living being aren't you? It's not dishonesty. It's being HONEST and NOT sugar coating it with saying things like "Oh it's JUST a fetus so it's OK!"
<Pot> Hey Kettle
<Kettle> Yes Pot?
<Pot> Your black
<strong>It's being HONEST and NOT sugar coating it with saying things like "Oh it's JUST a fetus so it's OK!" </strong><hr></blockquote>The fact is, fetus is the proper term (and embryo before that, and zygote before that) in a medical context. Abortion is a medical procedure, so it's not inappropriate or dishonest to use that term. The term was not invented to make abortion seem OK.
Are you saying that the use of the term "baby," which conjures up images of a 3-month old child in booties, isn't used by the pro-life side intentionally? Or the term partial-birth abortion, which was invented by the pro-life groups?
<strong>The fact is, fetus is the proper term (and embryo before that, and zygote before that) in a medical context. Abortion is a medical procedure, so it's not inappropriate or dishonest to use that term. The term was not invented to make abortion seem OK.
Are you saying that the use of the term "baby," which conjures up images of a 3-month old child in booties, isn't used by the pro-life side intentionally? Or the term partial-birth abortion, which was invented by the pro-life groups?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me ask you a question.
Do you think abortion kills a life?
[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
<strong>Let me ask you a question.
Do you think abortion kills a life?</strong><hr></blockquote>Yes.