I don't understand the need for people to constantly whine that Apple doesn't create this or that (insert cheap hardware/software combo here) in X market. Nothing you say here will affect them in any way. I'm sure they've done all sorts of feasibility studies and if they could do so and make a good profit with a quality product, they would have done it by now.
Apple is making an incredible profit, with a strong upward trend, even during a recession. You don't fix what isn't broken.
I would rather have a deeper penetration of OSX used by larger numbers of the public which would increase market share and spur on sales of the more expensive machines as well once the OS is ingrained in the public's consciousness- especially young students. Alas it's like 2 years too late.
Apple doesn't have any interest in OS X becoming the main stream, majority operating system.
No offence Sam, but this is a pretty horrible article IMO.
I mean you correctly state this is a "claim" instead of a fact, but you lead off with a quote by someone stating it as fact. Then later on you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
... The news is another example of Apple fending off systems with unauthorized installs of Mac OS X. ..
As if *that* is already established as fact. (it isn't)
Also, none of this even attempts to get at the problem of intent. Even if the basic facts are true in regards the latest version not running on the Atom, it's a huge leap of logic to imply that this is intentional. It could easily be that the code was just optimised for the hardware they *do* sell and that as a result of that it doesn't run on the Atom. We shouldn't ascribe motivations we don't know about to things and people we have no information on.
Further, this quote you include from the source:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
... (the report said). "Mac OS X runs absolutely flawlessly on much of the PC Netbook hardware, once it's configured you wouldn"t know you?re not on a Mac.."
is just total BS. All it does is ramp up the anger and give that person a justification for his next lines where he speculates that it's all a plot or something. The fact that this person is using the superlative statement is a good indicator they are just making crap up.
IMO this story is a wild rumour but it somehow comes across like a factual news article. I know you guys have to run the rumours but this comes across like click bait to me.
Here, in Spain, is not a copyright issue. You're not infringing Apple copyright installing OS X in a non Apple computer, you're only allegedly breaking an article of the EULA. An article that can be illegal according to Spanish consumer law.
Well, all the more reason that Apple will have to increasingly restrict the use of OS X through more restrictive means.
I think "thieves" is probably not the correct term.
We have to consider that it is Apple's choice to subsidize the price of OS X. If Gillette subsidizes the price of their shaver with the increased cost of the blades (which they do) would it be "theft" for someone to purchase a shaver from Gillette and choose a 3rd-party supplier for the blades? No, it would not. If Gillette subsidized the shaver to the point at which it seriously compromised their profits, that would simply be a bad business decision.
Imagine the reverse situation where Apple sells an expensive shaver and subsidizes the price of the blades. Apple, in fact, has the cheapest blades on the market. So if I were to, say, mold a plastic shaver with the ergonomics I like/need, and which happens to fit Apple's blades, would it be theft for me to buy said blades? No, it would not. Just as Gillette would be stupid to subsidize their shaver to the point of seriously compromising their business, so, too, would Apple.
The other bit, however, is that Apple has an EULA which says that if you buy and use their blades, said blades must be used with Apple's expensive shaver.
Would it now be theft of me to mold my own shaver and buy Apple's blades? The action I am performing is identical to what I was doing before: buying the subsidized blades to use with a shaver I molded myself. The difference in the second situation is breaching a contract.
But... Does Apple really have the legal right to stop me from using their blade, for which I paid the sticker price?
Or... is it, perhaps, Apple who is out of bounds for having such an EULA?
-----------------
As a Hackintosh builder/user, I respect Apple's right to sell their software, and I buy it at the price they ask, but I reject their EULA as a violation of my rights as a consumer. Companies should not be able to control the use of their products past the point of sale. Therefore, disabling Atom support is well within their rights, but repatching OS X to recognize and operate with the Atom motherboard I installed in my late G4 Cube should be well within my rights.
I would rather Apple charge "full price" for OS X than impose unethical restrictions past the point of sale.
Well, all the more reason that Apple will have to increasingly restrict the use of OS X through more restrictive means.
Which won't work. Anytime Apple attempts something like this someone on the net hacks it in less then 24 hours. If anything its encouragement for people to try and get around it.
People aren't doing this to try and make money they are doing it to see if they can.
Kind of like trying to block the Pre from syncing with iTunes. Apple blocks it and Pre owners fine a way around the block.
Well, the EULA is an extension of the rights you have to Apple's copyright materials (very little, by default.) They permit you to use their copyright materials on hardware that they have designed, manufactured, and sold to you, and, err, that's it.
Here I think is a gray area in where Copyright would provide protection to the proprietary parts of OS X. Using and hence running OS X would be a "method of operation" which is not covered by U.S. Copyright law:
So while Copyright would protect changes to and redistribution of proprietary OS X code, it would not cover Apple's requirement that it is only allowed to be operated on Apple-branded hardware. This is why Apple needs a separate EULA contract to provide additional protections that Copyright law doesn't cover merely by publishing software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrg_uk
Start trying to do it for profit, as Psystar are attempting to do, and you should expect to be hit hard.
Totally agree. You can use a copyrighted work in any way you want personally and it is covered by the Fair Use laws. Start using it or selling it in a commercial manner and you are in violation.
... We don't know what proportion of hackintosh users actually bought OS X for their computers. Let's not automatically assume Apple is giving up a big chunk of OS sales on this one. ...
I think the whole article is a bit uh, speculative to say the least but this is a very important point.
I've seen Mac OS-x installed on a few hackintoshes and a lot of people where I work have put it on various netbooks of one kind or another. Not once have I seen anyone buy OS-X to put on a netbook.
Let's face it, one isn't even sure if it's going to work and when you do it, it's more like a technical challenge than anything else. I'm not sure there is a "segment of the market" that's using OS-X on hacked netbooks.
I find it very very hard to believe that some average Joe or Jane is going to go out and buy a netbook, go over to the Apple store and buy Snow Leopard, try to install it, and then get pissed off when it doesn't work. This is a fantasy IMO.
I would strongly disagree. Tinkerers, as you call them, are generally regarded as weirdos by their families and neighbors. They usually have ultra-inflated egos, tend to turn off people rather than influence them, and are true bores. The more they tell you how tech savvy they are the more you know they aren't. So whatever they recommend is considered to be too complicated to use by the average Joe. The old Saturday Night Live "Your Company's Computer Guy" skit about sums them up.
So, no, they are not good for any platform let alone Apple.
1) Not get ANY money whatsoever from those looking for OS X on a budget?
2) Get a bit of extra money from those that buy OS X and install it themselves on a netbook?
3) Do it the Apple way, piss off a small subset of the tinkerer base, and not get any money whatsoever from it?
I assume you think Apple's answer is #3 and that the correct answer should be #2. But if you've followed Apple for any length of time, you know that the real answer is #1.
Apple has always worked to make Mac an "experience" brand. They don't make "budget" hardware and only rarely, if ever, have they made pushes for market share. And they certainly aren't going to chase after something like netbooks if they view them as a passing fad and they have something better in mind. Why would they waste resources designing a netbook that would ultimately compete with the rumored tablet? Why would they want a tiny profit now when they could get a much larger profit later for a tablet?
Which won't work. Anytime Apple attempts something like this someone on the net hacks it in less then 24 hours. If anything its encouragement for people to try and get around it.
People aren't doing this to try and make money they are doing it to see if they can.
Kind of like trying to block the Pre from syncing with iTunes. Apple blocks it and Pre owners fine a way around the block.
Obviously, it's a trade off between the cost of preventing piracy and the cost of not preventing it. Even with the iPhone, it's not really worth a full scale engineering effort to make it practically impossible to hack. On the other hand, were they to perceive hackintoshing as resulting in a significant loss of revenues, they only have to make it so difficult that it's not worth it for (most) people to do it.
Then again, they may not always continue to use Intel CPUs, which would pretty much eliminate the hackintosh community in short order.
Sorry, I'm not an English speaker, I've never learned English in a formal way, only through reading a lot of books, surfing Internet and watching movies and series. So my grammar skills are weak.
I thank you your polite observation.
As a non-native English speaker myself, who always tries hard to say/write correctly, let me say that yours is a lot better than the horrific written English that infests this Forum.
...The material harm is that the use r is enjoying the benefits of Mac OS X while Apple has lost the revenue from the required hardware purchase...
Apple would have to provide evidence that the user would of bought Apple hardware to have a material loss. There would be no legal or practical way to prove that fact. In fact, the user buying non-Apple hardware to run OS X on is in direct contradiction to that claim. So in the end, at most the user in violation of a non-enforceable clause in a EULA that violates that user's Fair Use rights for personal use of a copyrighted work.
Does anyone even understand this question, let alone the grammar used to ask it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion
Sorry, I'm not an English speaker, I've never learned English in a formal way, only through reading a lot of books, surfing Internet and watching movies and series. So my grammar skills are weak.
I thank you your polite observation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sequitur
AI members should show where they live or what their native language is. That would forestall statements like the above. Please let us know where you're coming from. When registering, there is a way to show this. AppleInsider, why not make this a requirement.
It shouldn't matter. The internet allows worldwide observation, assume horrible english is a non-native speaker. Being rude doesn't get anyone anywhere. I'm from NY, I see rude everyday and it's pointless.
What hittrj meant to ask was "Could you clarify your question, please?" Same thing, but garners a completely different response. Not that tough.
As a Hackintosh builder/user, I respect Apple's right to sell their software, and I buy it at the price they ask, but I reject their EULA as a violation of my rights as a consumer.
That's awfully convenient. It's like saying, "I don't like their rules, so I'll ignore them and make up my own". You have the opinion that Apple's SL EULA violates your right as a consumer and to that your are entitled. But despite your protestations, Apple's EULA still stands as valid and legal (until and if it's proven otherwise) and you are still violating it (even with the $30 upgrade or $169 box).
Comments
Apple is making an incredible profit, with a strong upward trend, even during a recession. You don't fix what isn't broken.
So would Apple rather:
1) Not get ANY money whatsoever from those looking for OS X on a budget?
2) Get a bit of extra money from those that buy OS X and install it themselves on a netbook?
3) Do it the Apple way, piss off a small subset of the tinkerer base, and not get any money whatsoever from it?
1) That's fine for Apple, they don't care about that market demographic, it's not profitable.
2) $30 for OS X doesn't cover the potential support calls (where as the hardware markup does).
3) See answer 1.
Guilty as charged. I suppose my morals and ethics were a dead giveaway? Morals, ethics, ever heard of those quaint concepts?
Then again it's my generation that raised yours so I suppose it's really our fault.
you got that right.
I would rather have a deeper penetration of OSX used by larger numbers of the public which would increase market share and spur on sales of the more expensive machines as well once the OS is ingrained in the public's consciousness- especially young students. Alas it's like 2 years too late.
Apple doesn't have any interest in OS X becoming the main stream, majority operating system.
I mean you correctly state this is a "claim" instead of a fact, but you lead off with a quote by someone stating it as fact. Then later on you say:
... The news is another example of Apple fending off systems with unauthorized installs of Mac OS X. ..
As if *that* is already established as fact. (it isn't)
Also, none of this even attempts to get at the problem of intent. Even if the basic facts are true in regards the latest version not running on the Atom, it's a huge leap of logic to imply that this is intentional. It could easily be that the code was just optimised for the hardware they *do* sell and that as a result of that it doesn't run on the Atom. We shouldn't ascribe motivations we don't know about to things and people we have no information on.
Further, this quote you include from the source:
... (the report said). "Mac OS X runs absolutely flawlessly on much of the PC Netbook hardware, once it's configured you wouldn"t know you?re not on a Mac.."
is just total BS. All it does is ramp up the anger and give that person a justification for his next lines where he speculates that it's all a plot or something. The fact that this person is using the superlative statement is a good indicator they are just making crap up.
IMO this story is a wild rumour but it somehow comes across like a factual news article. I know you guys have to run the rumours but this comes across like click bait to me.
Here, in Spain, is not a copyright issue. You're not infringing Apple copyright installing OS X in a non Apple computer, you're only allegedly breaking an article of the EULA. An article that can be illegal according to Spanish consumer law.
Well, all the more reason that Apple will have to increasingly restrict the use of OS X through more restrictive means.
We have to consider that it is Apple's choice to subsidize the price of OS X. If Gillette subsidizes the price of their shaver with the increased cost of the blades (which they do) would it be "theft" for someone to purchase a shaver from Gillette and choose a 3rd-party supplier for the blades? No, it would not. If Gillette subsidized the shaver to the point at which it seriously compromised their profits, that would simply be a bad business decision.
Imagine the reverse situation where Apple sells an expensive shaver and subsidizes the price of the blades. Apple, in fact, has the cheapest blades on the market. So if I were to, say, mold a plastic shaver with the ergonomics I like/need, and which happens to fit Apple's blades, would it be theft for me to buy said blades? No, it would not. Just as Gillette would be stupid to subsidize their shaver to the point of seriously compromising their business, so, too, would Apple.
The other bit, however, is that Apple has an EULA which says that if you buy and use their blades, said blades must be used with Apple's expensive shaver.
Would it now be theft of me to mold my own shaver and buy Apple's blades? The action I am performing is identical to what I was doing before: buying the subsidized blades to use with a shaver I molded myself. The difference in the second situation is breaching a contract.
But... Does Apple really have the legal right to stop me from using their blade, for which I paid the sticker price?
Or... is it, perhaps, Apple who is out of bounds for having such an EULA?
-----------------
As a Hackintosh builder/user, I respect Apple's right to sell their software, and I buy it at the price they ask, but I reject their EULA as a violation of my rights as a consumer. Companies should not be able to control the use of their products past the point of sale. Therefore, disabling Atom support is well within their rights, but repatching OS X to recognize and operate with the Atom motherboard I installed in my late G4 Cube should be well within my rights.
I would rather Apple charge "full price" for OS X than impose unethical restrictions past the point of sale.
-Clive
Well, all the more reason that Apple will have to increasingly restrict the use of OS X through more restrictive means.
Which won't work. Anytime Apple attempts something like this someone on the net hacks it in less then 24 hours. If anything its encouragement for people to try and get around it.
People aren't doing this to try and make money they are doing it to see if they can.
Kind of like trying to block the Pre from syncing with iTunes. Apple blocks it and Pre owners fine a way around the block.
2) $30 for OS X doesn't cover the potential support calls (where as the hardware markup does).
Hackintoshers would be ineligible for support. The $30 is pure revenue.
Well, the EULA is an extension of the rights you have to Apple's copyright materials (very little, by default.) They permit you to use their copyright materials on hardware that they have designed, manufactured, and sold to you, and, err, that's it.
Here I think is a gray area in where Copyright would provide protection to the proprietary parts of OS X. Using and hence running OS X would be a "method of operation" which is not covered by U.S. Copyright law:
What does copyright protect?
Copyright, a form of intellectual property law...Copyright does not protect facts, ideas, systems, or methods of operation... From: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/fa...l#what_protect
So while Copyright would protect changes to and redistribution of proprietary OS X code, it would not cover Apple's requirement that it is only allowed to be operated on Apple-branded hardware. This is why Apple needs a separate EULA contract to provide additional protections that Copyright law doesn't cover merely by publishing software.
Start trying to do it for profit, as Psystar are attempting to do, and you should expect to be hit hard.
Totally agree. You can use a copyrighted work in any way you want personally and it is covered by the Fair Use laws. Start using it or selling it in a commercial manner and you are in violation.
... We don't know what proportion of hackintosh users actually bought OS X for their computers. Let's not automatically assume Apple is giving up a big chunk of OS sales on this one. ...
I think the whole article is a bit uh, speculative to say the least but this is a very important point.
I've seen Mac OS-x installed on a few hackintoshes and a lot of people where I work have put it on various netbooks of one kind or another. Not once have I seen anyone buy OS-X to put on a netbook.
Let's face it, one isn't even sure if it's going to work and when you do it, it's more like a technical challenge than anything else. I'm not sure there is a "segment of the market" that's using OS-X on hacked netbooks.
I find it very very hard to believe that some average Joe or Jane is going to go out and buy a netbook, go over to the Apple store and buy Snow Leopard, try to install it, and then get pissed off when it doesn't work. This is a fantasy IMO.
I would strongly disagree. Tinkerers, as you call them, are generally regarded as weirdos by their families and neighbors. They usually have ultra-inflated egos, tend to turn off people rather than influence them, and are true bores. The more they tell you how tech savvy they are the more you know they aren't. So whatever they recommend is considered to be too complicated to use by the average Joe. The old Saturday Night Live "Your Company's Computer Guy" skit about sums them up.
So, no, they are not good for any platform let alone Apple.
the next time you have a thought, don't share it.
So would Apple rather:
1) Not get ANY money whatsoever from those looking for OS X on a budget?
2) Get a bit of extra money from those that buy OS X and install it themselves on a netbook?
3) Do it the Apple way, piss off a small subset of the tinkerer base, and not get any money whatsoever from it?
I assume you think Apple's answer is #3 and that the correct answer should be #2. But if you've followed Apple for any length of time, you know that the real answer is #1.
Apple has always worked to make Mac an "experience" brand. They don't make "budget" hardware and only rarely, if ever, have they made pushes for market share. And they certainly aren't going to chase after something like netbooks if they view them as a passing fad and they have something better in mind. Why would they waste resources designing a netbook that would ultimately compete with the rumored tablet? Why would they want a tiny profit now when they could get a much larger profit later for a tablet?
It could easily be that the code was just optimised for the hardware they *do* sell and that as a result of that it doesn't run on the Atom.
Exactly.
The problem is that I can't find which instructions can be incompatible with Atom processors and compatible with Core Duo processors.
Which won't work. Anytime Apple attempts something like this someone on the net hacks it in less then 24 hours. If anything its encouragement for people to try and get around it.
People aren't doing this to try and make money they are doing it to see if they can.
Kind of like trying to block the Pre from syncing with iTunes. Apple blocks it and Pre owners fine a way around the block.
Obviously, it's a trade off between the cost of preventing piracy and the cost of not preventing it. Even with the iPhone, it's not really worth a full scale engineering effort to make it practically impossible to hack. On the other hand, were they to perceive hackintoshing as resulting in a significant loss of revenues, they only have to make it so difficult that it's not worth it for (most) people to do it.
Then again, they may not always continue to use Intel CPUs, which would pretty much eliminate the hackintosh community in short order.
Sorry, I'm not an English speaker, I've never learned English in a formal way, only through reading a lot of books, surfing Internet and watching movies and series. So my grammar skills are weak.
I thank you your polite observation.
As a non-native English speaker myself, who always tries hard to say/write correctly, let me say that yours is a lot better than the horrific written English that infests this Forum.
Just ignore the cheap shot.
...The material harm is that the use r is enjoying the benefits of Mac OS X while Apple has lost the revenue from the required hardware purchase...
Apple would have to provide evidence that the user would of bought Apple hardware to have a material loss. There would be no legal or practical way to prove that fact. In fact, the user buying non-Apple hardware to run OS X on is in direct contradiction to that claim. So in the end, at most the user in violation of a non-enforceable clause in a EULA that violates that user's Fair Use rights for personal use of a copyrighted work.
Does anyone even understand this question, let alone the grammar used to ask it?
Sorry, I'm not an English speaker, I've never learned English in a formal way, only through reading a lot of books, surfing Internet and watching movies and series. So my grammar skills are weak.
I thank you your polite observation.
AI members should show where they live or what their native language is. That would forestall statements like the above. Please let us know where you're coming from. When registering, there is a way to show this. AppleInsider, why not make this a requirement.
It shouldn't matter. The internet allows worldwide observation, assume horrible english is a non-native speaker. Being rude doesn't get anyone anywhere. I'm from NY, I see rude everyday and it's pointless.
What hittrj meant to ask was "Could you clarify your question, please?" Same thing, but garners a completely different response. Not that tough.
As a Hackintosh builder/user, I respect Apple's right to sell their software, and I buy it at the price they ask, but I reject their EULA as a violation of my rights as a consumer.
That's awfully convenient. It's like saying, "I don't like their rules, so I'll ignore them and make up my own". You have the opinion that Apple's SL EULA violates your right as a consumer and to that your are entitled. But despite your protestations, Apple's EULA still stands as valid and legal (until and if it's proven otherwise) and you are still violating it (even with the $30 upgrade or $169 box).