If they did, it would do just as poorly as the ipod touch version does. If people want madden, they will pony up for a 360/PS3 and play it, thats why the console versions always have incredibly high sales.
I searched and searched for any stories about slow sales for madden on the iPhone. All I found were stories of console sales being down, but did find this
Quote:
"Online games that you download, games you would get by way of iPhone for example, that totally digital business is up so strong that it's actually offsetting the challenge we see at retail," Riccitiello tells FOX Business. Offerings like Madden 10 on iPhone, the upcoming Madden NFL Arcade, and Madden 10 DLC should go far in helping the company's bottom line. "The retail business is down," Riccitiello admits, but "the combination [of both retail and digital] is up."
If they did, it would do just as poorly as the ipod touch version does. If people want madden, they will pony up for a 360/PS3 and play it, thats why the console versions always have incredibly high sales.
Nintendos royalty fee isnt near 30% they dropped it quite a few years ago because they wanted to entice developers to their console (back when they were getting spanked hard) the total cost of a game (sans advertising) still wouldnt nail you that hard considering packaging costs and buying the cartridges (which you save in bundle dont forget). 30% is still too high when you can get it for less and make more money. Nintendo even waves royalty fees to high profile devs since content sells systems.
And the issue everyone likes to bring up, if you have an iphone/ipod thats cool you dont want to carry two devices, your most likely an adult who MOST LIKELY owns a console of some kind in your own home. Portable gamings market segment is younger users, when i see 7-8 year olds running around with touchs/phones playing the latest pokemon or whatever then it will be something worth mentioning.
I don't disagree that there are some fun games for the iPod/iPhone but like you said many of these are very simplistic quick fix games (fun for 10 minutes or so at a time) - if I let them my kids would spend hours upon hours on the DS games such as Animal Crossing or Yoshi's Island - nothing comes even close to these on the iPhone, nothing.
In terms of competing then yes the iPhone is more advanced in most areas other than one - controls. Not having dedicated controls prevents the iPhone from being a true gaming device - anyone who says otherwise is, in my opinion, not a true gamer. For me games that employ the accelerometer for controlling the direction etc are poor substitutes for actual dedicated buttons - your opinion may be different but my experience is that onscreen controls are inaccurate, lack tactile feedback and have little consistency from one game to the next.
Apple need to sort this if they are to compete in the handheld console market.
Yeah I don't know how anyone has an enjoyable gaming experience on an iPhone, other than the "sitting on the can" kind of casual games (bejeweled and such) for a few minutes at a time. Maybe I'm just old with bad eyes, but I haven't found a game yet that i was comfortable playing on my iphone.
Looks like its working tho - I just don't get it as a gaming machine.
Really? On the other side of that coin I often heard, "Gee, I wish I had my better camera on me to get take that shot!" - especially at nightime- the one with the F*L*A*S*H*!
And did wishing that you had the better camera with you help you get any photo at all?
Vinea on point 2 if you cant overtake the dominant monster overall it just leaves gaps in your model and leaves openings for competitors to come. Without japanese support (and thus Japanese Developer support) it leaves the holes for Nintendo to keep their A+ devs and keep customers in their square, since they will pay to play those game they make.
DS does have indie development, its called DSware their cheap titles from 2, 5 or 9 bucks.
for a console game, an average publisher makes about 30-35 dollars per game sold (assuming the retailers buy the games at 45 wholesale to be marked up at 59.99) this number goes up, especially for Nintendo since they dont pay royalties to themselves and they have in house devs. Nintendo will waive the royaltie fee for some high profile devs to get them on their system (5-7 dollars per game does add up in the grand scheme of things)
iTunes has faltered many times under stress from iphone activations, how will it stand to compare against a few hundred thousand who will try and download a game at once (typically when it releases, its not that uncommon either for high profile games)? On your note, not everyone watches that many movies via iTunes and song downloads are like what 5-8MBs? it would take 30-50 people to add up to just one iphone OS download. They need to back up their infrastructure, maybe that monstrous server farm their making will make this possible.
On your last point, i dont see how its false. If your going to hit nintendo where it hurts, your aiming to take their younger market away from them as well...this is where the majority of their sales are. Many popular titles so far (excluding japanese specifics like dragon quest) are oriented for a younger generation. When you start to move up into the age group, you hit the teen market and at this time they are most likely looking into console gaming.
Theoretical at 15, you have 200 bucks and you want to game, your going to lean towards a console (360 most likely but Wii is still cool and PS3 is out of range) and they have nice added benefits as well. After that, i would look for a Zune/Touch but because if i didnt have an MP3 player it would be the next logical thing to get seeing as how it can do quite a bit.
I see a lot of people here using the wrong argument that all iPhone and iPod touch users are gamers, which is just not true. Sure, it sounds impressive when you say Apple has sold ~60 million iPhone and touch devices to Nintendo's ~120 million DS devices, but that is an empty comparison. The iPod touch is primarily a music device, whereas the iPhone is primarily a phone; both devices are capable of playing games, but neither are bonafide gaming devices, and I highly doubt consumers buy either primarily to game, especially not the iPhone. The proper argument to make is, [i]"Not all iPhone and iPod touch users are necessarily gamers, but all Nintendo DS owners are necessarily gamers" due to the nature of the devices. Yeah, you have your Assassin's Creeds and Maddens and Metal Gears and Sega games for the iPhone and iPod touch (which you can get on any other platform), you also have many uninspiring games which are akin to the equally useless fart apps found elsewhere in the App Store. And games like Tetris and Pong and Bejeweled have been around in mobile form for years as well. In this respect, iPhone and iPod touch gaming is nothing special. It is not Nintendo I fear for, but companies like Sony and their PSP (which is a dud) that I see dark times ahead for. Nintendo is anything but stagnant and non-innovative, but Sony is on what, the 3rd rehash of the Playstation now? At least Iwata at Nintendo sees what Apple is doing and is being reactive, as others here have said.
does that mean that big publishers only sell direct? no distributors/wholesalers/retailers are getting a cut of the $29.99? i would be surprised if the publisher even gets 50% of that. So a 30% cut to apple that includes the entire distribution shouldn't be the issue.
the question is if the $30 price is too high for the ipod/iphone crowd (and of course if the interface works well for the game).
at 29.99 the retailer probably buys at 22ish depending on said retailer (wally world gets them cheaper because they happen to sell a lot of crap lol) but selling to a retailer you get space to see an item in physical shape, and often times a retailer will advertise for you if they know the game is gonna be hot (they want to sell copies too, remember they make a profit as well).
What you cant account for now, is that there is over 8000 something games. Games get lost in the shuffle sadly wont ever see the success it deserves, hell some companies delay games on purpose if there are too many high profile titles coming out to retail around that time.
In addition, mine also replaced the little sticky notes that I would write my shopping list on. (...and then leave at the house sitting on the counter)
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126
Done it many times! Write a list so as not to forget anything only to forget the damn list!
I used to do the same thing. Now I just save to a Note in Mail.app which gets synced to MM which gets synced to my iPhone and vice versa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I know you like to be optimistic, but I have to disagree with this. To me this is just hopeful statements without anything to back it up. I can't see how any intelligent analysis of the current state of affairs could come up with anything other than the view that Nintendo is pretty much dead in the water right now.
I am being optimistic and obviously have no statements to back up what will happen in the future, but there is plenty of evidence of Nintendo having a popular and profitable device, then disappearing for a spell as other consoles and handhelds take over just to emerge again like Willy Wonka. This goes back well before the NES in the 80s.
Part of my optimism is also derived from Itawa acknowledging the issue at hand. It stands to reason that if you can see the problem then you can at least focus on dealing with it, even if you have no idea how to solve it at that moment in time.
The one major difference between the last 30 years and today is paradigm shift from physical distribution to cloud-based distribution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormchild
I've got three words for Nintendo:
Mario, Zelda, Metroid.
Those are the only things they've ever needed to sell hardware.
I have bought every single Nntendo device specifically to play Zelda and Metroid. After that I get rid of it.
Unfortunately for Nintendo, the game selection on the App Store has a possibility of really taking off. The HW is more poor powerful than the DS, though less than the PSP. If we get a real gam developer investing heavily into a well designed game the Touch could be more popular than ever. Hell, Apple may even work to make this happen. I have to think Apple doesn?t want another Bungie situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage
Console hardware is sold at or below cost.
There's no money in it.
I think Nintendo?s business model has been making a healthy profit on their consoles, unlike the other companies.
If Nintendo could press a button an make the pre-owned game market disappear. They would press it in Heartbeat.
Although Sony and Microsoft would try to press the button first.
C.
That's funny, the Wii was sold at profit from day one. The NDS is selling at profit.
If Apple successful at gaming on the iPhone (and looking at the quality of games available at the moment, I certainly hope it isn't) one of two things is going to happen.
1. All games will become very small
2. All the iPhone games will rise in price to match the current gaming platform prices.
That is an erroneous conclusion. There are already games on the App Store that are quite large. I think the DS cartridges have a maximum of 256MiB and the Myst port is over 700MiB. There is nothing preventing a developer from making or porting over large and robust games, even offering expansion packs through the game itself over several years. Remember, the store is still quite new and quality games take longer than simple ones.
Quote:
2. All the iPhone games will rise in price to match the current gaming platform prices.
With a free SDK, little overhead to be a developer driving competition, less need for excessive game testing since you can issue updates as needed, and the lack of investment to make and distribute a game the costs will likely remain lower while also yielding more total profit per platform.
That is an erroneous conclusion. There are already games on the App Store that are quite large. I think the DS cartridges have a maximum of 256MiB and the Myst port is over 700MiB. There is nothing preventing a developer from making or porting over large and robust games, even offering expansion packs through the game itself over several years. Remember, the store is still quite new and quality games take longer than simple ones.
And the UMB has a limit of 1.8GB, which is used. I am not saying they will not port larger games across, I am just saying, you better look forward to the increase in prices to match them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
With a free SDK, little overhead to be a developer driving competition, less need for excessive game testing since you can issue updates as needed, and the lack of investment to make and distribute a game the costs will likely remain lower while also yielding more total profit per platform.
But if the game producers can make more money they will, doesn't matter if the costs remain lower or not, Apple's pricing is a prime example of this.
The Nintendo DS is the fastest selling gaming system of all time. Their handheld business is not going away anytime soon. Iwata said their future is dark if they cannot differentiate themselves from the iPhone. That means that they will find a way to do that.
I was wondering if I was the only one seeing this.
He said If we fail to differentiate. He didn't sayWe are failing to differentiate. Considering that their portables are best-selling hardware and software wise, they most definitely are not failing to differentiate.
it would be the same as if Ferrari manager would say "If we fail to differentiate our cars from Ford and Opel, we would be in big trouble" and suddenly everyone starts thinking Enzo is actually Ford Focus coloured in Ferrari red.
Quote:
Also, don't underestimate the value of a d-pad and real buttons. For many types of games, these things are very important. Far more so than a higher screen resolution.
Battery life, too. I remember lots of criticism for PSP having only app. 5 hours of battery life while playing 3D games. My 3Gs has hardly 2 hours of 3D gameplay, but realistically I can't play more than an hour on the go as I want to keep phone/texting/mp3 alive through the day.
One way or another, it boils down to casual gaming.
Maybe future iPhones will improve - likely they will - but for now, I'd say portable consoles are safe & sound.
One particular point of interest in this discussion should be Nintendo's recent stance on region locked games. Nintendo's handhelds have always been region-free systems, until the DSi came along and completely separated the U.S./Japan/Europe game regions. What is worse is that future cart-based DSi games are also going to be region-locked. I have no idea how Nintendo thinks this will help them considering Sony doesn't lock their PSP and the iPhone/iPod touch doesn't lock their apps.
Nintendo does have an advantage right now in that they have the larger names making games for the DS/DSi, but that could easily swing in the opposite direction. If that happens, Nintendo could find themselves fighting off a competitor they probably did not expect to face.
Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars began a Nintendo DS exclusive then was ported to PSP and a version for iPhone/iPod touch has been announced. That's a big game franchise that has never been on an Apple platform before, and the iPhone/iPod touch hardware is significantly more powerful than the DS and even the PSP.
Um... where is that coming from..?
From what I could find (quote): Well the iPhone 3GS is fast, but not that fast. According to AnandTech?s report, the 3GS is running a PowerVR SGX, most likely at 200 MHz. at that speed, it can push about 7 million triangles per second, and fill at rate of 250 million pixels per second.
Compare that to the PSP, which pushes 33 million triangles per second, with a fill rate of 664 million pixels per second. (source)
So basically, PSP is pushing almost 5x triangles and more than 2x fill rate, while maintaining much better battery life in 3D games, has dedicated controls and number of exclusive and high production value titles.
Yeah. Sure they are. Just like HP and Dell, and Lenovo, too!
Have you been away from the internets for the past decade? You see that company with the big Apple logo? Yeah, they're kind of redefning the entire industry.
Yeah, they are kind of trying to turn it into centralized, highly controlled we-know-what-is-best-for-you 1984 sort of existence.
But it's all kind of, as they managed to turn whole 4% world wide so far - kind of.
Comments
If they did, it would do just as poorly as the ipod touch version does. If people want madden, they will pony up for a 360/PS3 and play it, thats why the console versions always have incredibly high sales.
I searched and searched for any stories about slow sales for madden on the iPhone. All I found were stories of console sales being down, but did find this
"Online games that you download, games you would get by way of iPhone for example, that totally digital business is up so strong that it's actually offsetting the challenge we see at retail," Riccitiello tells FOX Business. Offerings like Madden 10 on iPhone, the upcoming Madden NFL Arcade, and Madden 10 DLC should go far in helping the company's bottom line. "The retail business is down," Riccitiello admits, but "the combination [of both retail and digital] is up."
http://www.joystiq.com/2009/11/05/ea...-retail-sales/
If they did, it would do just as poorly as the ipod touch version does. If people want madden, they will pony up for a 360/PS3 and play it, thats why the console versions always have incredibly high sales.
Nintendos royalty fee isnt near 30% they dropped it quite a few years ago because they wanted to entice developers to their console (back when they were getting spanked hard) the total cost of a game (sans advertising) still wouldnt nail you that hard considering packaging costs and buying the cartridges (which you save in bundle dont forget). 30% is still too high when you can get it for less and make more money. Nintendo even waves royalty fees to high profile devs since content sells systems.
And the issue everyone likes to bring up, if you have an iphone/ipod thats cool you dont want to carry two devices, your most likely an adult who MOST LIKELY owns a console of some kind in your own home. Portable gamings market segment is younger users, when i see 7-8 year olds running around with touchs/phones playing the latest pokemon or whatever then it will be something worth mentioning.
You are absolutely right.
I don't disagree that there are some fun games for the iPod/iPhone but like you said many of these are very simplistic quick fix games (fun for 10 minutes or so at a time) - if I let them my kids would spend hours upon hours on the DS games such as Animal Crossing or Yoshi's Island - nothing comes even close to these on the iPhone, nothing.
In terms of competing then yes the iPhone is more advanced in most areas other than one - controls. Not having dedicated controls prevents the iPhone from being a true gaming device - anyone who says otherwise is, in my opinion, not a true gamer. For me games that employ the accelerometer for controlling the direction etc are poor substitutes for actual dedicated buttons - your opinion may be different but my experience is that onscreen controls are inaccurate, lack tactile feedback and have little consistency from one game to the next.
Apple need to sort this if they are to compete in the handheld console market.
Yeah I don't know how anyone has an enjoyable gaming experience on an iPhone, other than the "sitting on the can" kind of casual games (bejeweled and such) for a few minutes at a time. Maybe I'm just old with bad eyes, but I haven't found a game yet that i was comfortable playing on my iphone.
Looks like its working tho - I just don't get it as a gaming machine.
Really? On the other side of that coin I often heard, "Gee, I wish I had my better camera on me to get take that shot!" - especially at nightime- the one with the F*L*A*S*H*!
And did wishing that you had the better camera with you help you get any photo at all?
No.
DS does have indie development, its called DSware their cheap titles from 2, 5 or 9 bucks.
for a console game, an average publisher makes about 30-35 dollars per game sold (assuming the retailers buy the games at 45 wholesale to be marked up at 59.99) this number goes up, especially for Nintendo since they dont pay royalties to themselves and they have in house devs. Nintendo will waive the royaltie fee for some high profile devs to get them on their system (5-7 dollars per game does add up in the grand scheme of things)
iTunes has faltered many times under stress from iphone activations, how will it stand to compare against a few hundred thousand who will try and download a game at once (typically when it releases, its not that uncommon either for high profile games)? On your note, not everyone watches that many movies via iTunes and song downloads are like what 5-8MBs? it would take 30-50 people to add up to just one iphone OS download. They need to back up their infrastructure, maybe that monstrous server farm their making will make this possible.
On your last point, i dont see how its false. If your going to hit nintendo where it hurts, your aiming to take their younger market away from them as well...this is where the majority of their sales are. Many popular titles so far (excluding japanese specifics like dragon quest) are oriented for a younger generation. When you start to move up into the age group, you hit the teen market and at this time they are most likely looking into console gaming.
Theoretical at 15, you have 200 bucks and you want to game, your going to lean towards a console (360 most likely but Wii is still cool and PS3 is out of range) and they have nice added benefits as well. After that, i would look for a Zune/Touch but because if i didnt have an MP3 player it would be the next logical thing to get seeing as how it can do quite a bit.
does that mean that big publishers only sell direct? no distributors/wholesalers/retailers are getting a cut of the $29.99? i would be surprised if the publisher even gets 50% of that. So a 30% cut to apple that includes the entire distribution shouldn't be the issue.
the question is if the $30 price is too high for the ipod/iphone crowd (and of course if the interface works well for the game).
at 29.99 the retailer probably buys at 22ish depending on said retailer (wally world gets them cheaper because they happen to sell a lot of crap lol) but selling to a retailer you get space to see an item in physical shape, and often times a retailer will advertise for you if they know the game is gonna be hot (they want to sell copies too, remember they make a profit as well).
What you cant account for now, is that there is over 8000 something games. Games get lost in the shuffle sadly wont ever see the success it deserves, hell some companies delay games on purpose if there are too many high profile titles coming out to retail around that time.
What about the hardware that was purchased to play that second hand game, Nintendo makes money from that.
Console hardware is sold at or below cost.
There's no money in it.
The revenue is made from licensing the media.
If Nintendo could press a button an make the pre-owned game market disappear. They would press it in Heartbeat.
Although Sony and Microsoft would try to press the button first.
C.
In addition, mine also replaced the little sticky notes that I would write my shopping list on. (...and then leave at the house sitting on the counter)
Done it many times! Write a list so as not to forget anything only to forget the damn list!
I know you like to be optimistic, but I have to disagree with this. To me this is just hopeful statements without anything to back it up. I can't see how any intelligent analysis of the current state of affairs could come up with anything other than the view that Nintendo is pretty much dead in the water right now.
I am being optimistic and obviously have no statements to back up what will happen in the future, but there is plenty of evidence of Nintendo having a popular and profitable device, then disappearing for a spell as other consoles and handhelds take over just to emerge again like Willy Wonka. This goes back well before the NES in the 80s.
Part of my optimism is also derived from Itawa acknowledging the issue at hand. It stands to reason that if you can see the problem then you can at least focus on dealing with it, even if you have no idea how to solve it at that moment in time.
The one major difference between the last 30 years and today is paradigm shift from physical distribution to cloud-based distribution.
I've got three words for Nintendo:
Mario, Zelda, Metroid.
Those are the only things they've ever needed to sell hardware.
I have bought every single Nntendo device specifically to play Zelda and Metroid. After that I get rid of it.
Unfortunately for Nintendo, the game selection on the App Store has a possibility of really taking off. The HW is more poor powerful than the DS, though less than the PSP. If we get a real gam developer investing heavily into a well designed game the Touch could be more popular than ever. Hell, Apple may even work to make this happen. I have to think Apple doesn?t want another Bungie situation.
Console hardware is sold at or below cost.
There's no money in it.
I think Nintendo?s business model has been making a healthy profit on their consoles, unlike the other companies.
Console hardware is sold at or below cost.
There's no money in it.
The revenue is made from licensing the media.
If Nintendo could press a button an make the pre-owned game market disappear. They would press it in Heartbeat.
Although Sony and Microsoft would try to press the button first.
C.
That's funny, the Wii was sold at profit from day one. The NDS is selling at profit.
If Apple successful at gaming on the iPhone (and looking at the quality of games available at the moment, I certainly hope it isn't) one of two things is going to happen.
1. All games will become very small
2. All the iPhone games will rise in price to match the current gaming platform prices.
Both of which are not good.
1. All games will become very small
That is an erroneous conclusion. There are already games on the App Store that are quite large. I think the DS cartridges have a maximum of 256MiB and the Myst port is over 700MiB. There is nothing preventing a developer from making or porting over large and robust games, even offering expansion packs through the game itself over several years. Remember, the store is still quite new and quality games take longer than simple ones.
2. All the iPhone games will rise in price to match the current gaming platform prices.
With a free SDK, little overhead to be a developer driving competition, less need for excessive game testing since you can issue updates as needed, and the lack of investment to make and distribute a game the costs will likely remain lower while also yielding more total profit per platform.
That is an erroneous conclusion. There are already games on the App Store that are quite large. I think the DS cartridges have a maximum of 256MiB and the Myst port is over 700MiB. There is nothing preventing a developer from making or porting over large and robust games, even offering expansion packs through the game itself over several years. Remember, the store is still quite new and quality games take longer than simple ones.
And the UMB has a limit of 1.8GB, which is used. I am not saying they will not port larger games across, I am just saying, you better look forward to the increase in prices to match them.
With a free SDK, little overhead to be a developer driving competition, less need for excessive game testing since you can issue updates as needed, and the lack of investment to make and distribute a game the costs will likely remain lower while also yielding more total profit per platform.
But if the game producers can make more money they will, doesn't matter if the costs remain lower or not, Apple's pricing is a prime example of this.
The Nintendo DS is the fastest selling gaming system of all time. Their handheld business is not going away anytime soon. Iwata said their future is dark if they cannot differentiate themselves from the iPhone. That means that they will find a way to do that.
I was wondering if I was the only one seeing this.
He said If we fail to differentiate. He didn't say We are failing to differentiate. Considering that their portables are best-selling hardware and software wise, they most definitely are not failing to differentiate.
it would be the same as if Ferrari manager would say "If we fail to differentiate our cars from Ford and Opel, we would be in big trouble" and suddenly everyone starts thinking Enzo is actually Ford Focus coloured in Ferrari red.
Also, don't underestimate the value of a d-pad and real buttons. For many types of games, these things are very important. Far more so than a higher screen resolution.
Battery life, too. I remember lots of criticism for PSP having only app. 5 hours of battery life while playing 3D games. My 3Gs has hardly 2 hours of 3D gameplay, but realistically I can't play more than an hour on the go as I want to keep phone/texting/mp3 alive through the day.
One way or another, it boils down to casual gaming.
Maybe future iPhones will improve - likely they will - but for now, I'd say portable consoles are safe & sound.
Nintendo does have an advantage right now in that they have the larger names making games for the DS/DSi, but that could easily swing in the opposite direction. If that happens, Nintendo could find themselves fighting off a competitor they probably did not expect to face.
Grand Theft Auto: Chinatown Wars began a Nintendo DS exclusive then was ported to PSP and a version for iPhone/iPod touch has been announced. That's a big game franchise that has never been on an Apple platform before, and the iPhone/iPod touch hardware is significantly more powerful than the DS and even the PSP.
Um... where is that coming from..?
From what I could find (quote): Well the iPhone 3GS is fast, but not that fast. According to AnandTech?s report, the 3GS is running a PowerVR SGX, most likely at 200 MHz. at that speed, it can push about 7 million triangles per second, and fill at rate of 250 million pixels per second.
Compare that to the PSP, which pushes 33 million triangles per second, with a fill rate of 664 million pixels per second. (source)
http://www.hardcoreware.net/graphics...-to-psp-to-ds/
So basically, PSP is pushing almost 5x triangles and more than 2x fill rate, while maintaining much better battery life in 3D games, has dedicated controls and number of exclusive and high production value titles.
That is not small difference.
Yeah. Sure they are. Just like HP and Dell, and Lenovo, too!
Have you been away from the internets for the past decade? You see that company with the big Apple logo? Yeah, they're kind of redefning the entire industry.
Yeah, they are kind of trying to turn it into centralized, highly controlled we-know-what-is-best-for-you 1984 sort of existence.
But it's all kind of, as they managed to turn whole 4% world wide so far - kind of.
You are something special
It seems only natural.
Understood. But amazingly enough, has anyone ever wondered why Japanese/Chinese/Korean companies are never for sale to foreigners?
I saw images of assassin's creed 2 off an iPhone, and off a PSP, the iPhone images were nothing to be worried about
You really think I was talking about the iPhone?
Told yas.
Source?
WSJ:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...534809890.html
Does anyone read whole articles anymore or just react to headlines.
You really think I was talking about the iPhone?
Well following all the replies back through, yes I do.