If "virtually all Apple devices violate its patents", why hasn't Nokia used any of them?? Where's their amazing multi-touch app phone with the slickest UI around? Where's their iPhone killer? Never mind that, where's their Android Killer? Where is ANYTHING currently inspiring or truly impressive from Nokia that is currently in the hands of the everyday user?
Nokia is a joke. Like anyone cares how much experience they have when they've done virtually nothing for the past two years except churn out the same old devices and experience a historic slide in share and stock. Apple has shown them up in every department, overnight. Experience . . . . . right.
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
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Sorry, just saw that davidT already dealt with this much more succinctly than I did.
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
Sorry, just saw that DavidT already dealt with this.
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
In light of what Apple has produced, and in light of Nokia's failure to innovate, their share and stock slide, and their decision to claim two years later that Apple happened to violate all of its patents ( ), yes, I understand perfectly.
The cold war goes nuclear. Nokia sees the future and it ain't pretty. Trying to slow Apple down a bit and maybe pick up a piece of the action. Two problems: Apple isn't going to licence ANY IP to ANYBODY; Microsoft tried that with Quicktime when Apple was struggling and it didn't fly then: Apple these days has a humungeous pile of cash and will be unafraid of any protracted legal fight.
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
must be particularly embarrassing in finland, eh? does everybody in the country work for nokia?
The cold war goes nuclear. Nokia sees the future and it ain't pretty. Trying to slow Apple down a bit and maybe pick up a piece of the action. Two problems: Apple isn't going to licence ANY IP to ANYBODY; Microsoft tried that with Quicktime when Apple was struggling and it didn't fly then: Apple these days has a humungeous pile of cash and will be unafraid of any protracted legal fight.
Yeah, these are all "cold war"-style patents. They are not meant to be used or enforced, just there to keep other companies (and IP holding companies) at bay. I have no idea what Nokia is thinking... they would have eventually recovered. Instead they are stooping to the level of IP holding companies. This is what happens when you abandon R&D. Maybe Nokia will be the next SCO or Rambus?
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
They are not saying it was actually like the Third Reich. People compare things to Heaven and Hell all the time. It doesn't mean they were actually as bad as Hell or as good as Heaven. If you want to say something is bad you compare it to the worst thing you can think of. This comparison is doing nothing but respecting those who suffered. These comments are basically just trolling for attention.
Not that I'm defending the original post... I wish people would stay on topic or leave better comments then "Nokia sux as much as Microsoft". We need a moderation system to vote down off-topic and crude remarks. :-)
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
You obviously did not read the article. Apple wants to pay for patents according to the same terms other cell phone makers do. Industry compatibility standards are commonly licensed under so-called "Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory terms (FRAND)" and without any demands for using patents of the licensing party in return. Nokia wanted to overcharge Apple and set conditions that would force Apple to let them use patents that belong to Apple and do not deal with industry compatibility standards, but specific product details giving them a competitive advantage. While I do not know the Finnish word for it, we call it "blackmailing".
Considering the above, all the comments accusing Nokia of desperation and lack of own innovation are at least reasonable. If they have own innovations in the pipeline, why overcharge and blackmail Apple, and demand other conditions from them than those granted to Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Siemens, Samsung, etc ad lib?
Fact: Neither the N97 nor the N900 are remotely close to the iPhone (or even the Pre) in terms of usability and user experience - actually they can't even compete with Android. And Nokia has already indicated that they will cut back on high end phones in 2010. They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
You They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.
Shortened for brevity. No offense meant.
I agree with you that their recent phones have been colossal disasters. 100%. The N97 sold millions but had quite many returned. Many, many. I am friends with the flagship store manager here in Helsinki and I took mine back after just 10 days. Got an N86 which is a much better phone. Anyway, Apple is claiming that they have to pay more than anyone else. This could be the case but then LG, Ericsson, Motorola, etc... would all have to disclose how much they are paying for the same technology. If Apple is paying the same, then it would stand to reason that they do not have a case. If Nokia is over charging them, which might be the case, then Apple has a valid argument. Until someone has actual insight into all of the tech specs, and pricing models, a clear outcome can not be reached.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
Yup. It has to be determined what Nokia is charging the others and what they are charging Apple. This will most likely be the determining factor.
Yup. It has to be determined what Nokia is charging the others and what they are charging Apple. This will most likely be the determining factor.
It is not only about how much Nokia is asking. Apple also claiming that Nokia want, in addition to money, from Apple to license some of its iPhone patents to them.
Comments
If "virtually all Apple devices violate its patents", why hasn't Nokia used any of them?? Where's their amazing multi-touch app phone with the slickest UI around? Where's their iPhone killer? Never mind that, where's their Android Killer? Where is ANYTHING currently inspiring or truly impressive from Nokia that is currently in the hands of the everyday user?
Nokia is a joke. Like anyone cares how much experience they have when they've done virtually nothing for the past two years except churn out the same old devices and experience a historic slide in share and stock. Apple has shown them up in every department, overnight. Experience . . . . . right.
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
---
Sorry, just saw that davidT already dealt with this much more succinctly than I did.
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
Sorry, just saw that DavidT already dealt with this.
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
In light of what Apple has produced, and in light of Nokia's failure to innovate, their share and stock slide, and their decision to claim two years later that Apple happened to violate all of its patents (
Woot! A thousand posts! Oh damn 1001 now...
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
must be particularly embarrassing in finland, eh? does everybody in the country work for nokia?
must be particularly embarrassing in finland, eh? does everybody in the country work for nokia?
How would I know where everyone works? I don't work for Nokia. Oppsss....... Your stereotyping is showing.
The cold war goes nuclear. Nokia sees the future and it ain't pretty. Trying to slow Apple down a bit and maybe pick up a piece of the action. Two problems: Apple isn't going to licence ANY IP to ANYBODY; Microsoft tried that with Quicktime when Apple was struggling and it didn't fly then: Apple these days has a humungeous pile of cash and will be unafraid of any protracted legal fight.
Yeah, these are all "cold war"-style patents. They are not meant to be used or enforced, just there to keep other companies (and IP holding companies) at bay. I have no idea what Nokia is thinking... they would have eventually recovered. Instead they are stooping to the level of IP holding companies. This is what happens when you abandon R&D. Maybe Nokia will be the next SCO or Rambus?
Do we have to drag the Nazi's into this? The Third Reich was responsible for the brutal murder of millions and millions of people. Nokia, Microsoft, Apple are companies doing business. Unless it is illegal, in which case it is should be dealt with by the relevant legal authorities, we may not like a company but it but it is not on par with the death of 6 million Jews and the millions of others who died fighting the Third Reich.
Thank you. Sometimes it is embarrassing to be an Apple enthusiast. Not because of the great equipment but because of other Apple users who write crap referenced above.
They are not saying it was actually like the Third Reich. People compare things to Heaven and Hell all the time. It doesn't mean they were actually as bad as Hell or as good as Heaven. If you want to say something is bad you compare it to the worst thing you can think of. This comparison is doing nothing but respecting those who suffered. These comments are basically just trolling for attention.
Not that I'm defending the original post... I wish people would stay on topic or leave better comments then "Nokia sux as much as Microsoft". We need a moderation system to vote down off-topic and crude remarks. :-)
What this means is that iPhone is cleaning Nokia's clock, and they have no answer but to file lawsuits.
My sentiments exactly.
They probably sat in front of their road map and realized they won't be able to pay the bills down the line...
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
You obviously did not read the article. Apple wants to pay for patents according to the same terms other cell phone makers do. Industry compatibility standards are commonly licensed under so-called "Fair, Reasonable and Non Discriminatory terms (FRAND)" and without any demands for using patents of the licensing party in return. Nokia wanted to overcharge Apple and set conditions that would force Apple to let them use patents that belong to Apple and do not deal with industry compatibility standards, but specific product details giving them a competitive advantage. While I do not know the Finnish word for it, we call it "blackmailing".
Considering the above, all the comments accusing Nokia of desperation and lack of own innovation are at least reasonable. If they have own innovations in the pipeline, why overcharge and blackmail Apple, and demand other conditions from them than those granted to Sony, HTC, LG, Motorola, Siemens, Samsung, etc ad lib?
Fact: Neither the N97 nor the N900 are remotely close to the iPhone (or even the Pre) in terms of usability and user experience - actually they can't even compete with Android. And Nokia has already indicated that they will cut back on high end phones in 2010. They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.
Nokia is the new Microsoft, which was the new Third Reich.
Godwin's Law fulfilled in the second post... new record!
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
You They have been in hibernation for half a decade, milking consumers selling always the same product in new fancy shells. That is what happens to dinosaurs.
Shortened for brevity. No offense meant.
I agree with you that their recent phones have been colossal disasters. 100%. The N97 sold millions but had quite many returned. Many, many. I am friends with the flagship store manager here in Helsinki and I took mine back after just 10 days. Got an N86 which is a much better phone. Anyway, Apple is claiming that they have to pay more than anyone else. This could be the case but then LG, Ericsson, Motorola, etc... would all have to disclose how much they are paying for the same technology. If Apple is paying the same, then it would stand to reason that they do not have a case. If Nokia is over charging them, which might be the case, then Apple has a valid argument. Until someone has actual insight into all of the tech specs, and pricing models, a clear outcome can not be reached.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
Yup. It has to be determined what Nokia is charging the others and what they are charging Apple. This will most likely be the determining factor.
I am always intrigued with how whole heartedly one will argue a point until faced with facts.
Unfortunately the other subjects do not work this way.
If they did, 90% of conflicts would be resolved in a matter of hours.
Yup. It has to be determined what Nokia is charging the others and what they are charging Apple. This will most likely be the determining factor.
It is not only about how much Nokia is asking. Apple also claiming that Nokia want, in addition to money, from Apple to license some of its iPhone patents to them.