It only works in portrait mode for phonecalls, it has the same hardware (CPU, graphics RAM) as the 3GS, it doesn't do MMS, it does not link into Ovi store, it has "poor" battery life (well actually pretty normal for a phone with those specs).
In typical Nokia fashion it was released as a beta and the missing things are "coming" when "the community" develops them.
The Beta of the upcoming Maemo 5 update has no sign of a fix for always having to use it in landscape mode
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
That enough or you want more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
So, tell us what you know about Nokia's current flagship phone, the N900. Have you played with one? What do you think of it?
I would love to see a good synapse of this complaint. I cannot even begin to phantom where in the UI apple leveraged what Nokia or any of it's symbiam partners were doing.
I think you mean 'synopsis', not 'synapse'. And 'fathom', not 'phantom'. And I think their partner is 'Symbian', not 'symbiam'.
Making a minor typo is one thing. Having grammar that's so far off as to ludicrous is another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymondinperth
Nokia sucks , apple rocks...
Look at how games are played in iphone, MUTI-touch supports up to 5 fingers, nokia?? NONE.... NOKIA should REALLY think how suck their flagship phone N97 is ... this is TOTALLY rubbish...
Technically, Nokia doesn't need to use a technology to enforce its patents. It DOES, however look suspicious for them to claim they invented all those things and never used ANY of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
I don't know anyone who claimed that Apple invented cell phones. Please drop the sily strawman arguments.
The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on only a few patents isn't proof of anything. If I were to draw ANY inferences, it would be either that they don't think Apple is infringing the rest or they consider the rest so weak that they have no desire to defend them against someone with deep pockets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Exactly. That's the real issue and Apple's position looks pretty strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE
It is not only about how much Nokia is asking. Apple also claiming that Nokia want, in addition to money, from Apple to license some of its iPhone patents to them.
Yet Nokia has no right to demand that under the trade organization rules. Apple can choose to license or not to license - as long as they do it fairly if they choose to license.
An example of this is WebKit which Apple released under an open license which Nokia is free to use however they want, which they do, in their S60 Web Browser.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Apple can choose to license or not to license - as long as they do it fairly if they choose to license.
It only works in portrait mode for phonecalls, it has the same hardware (CPU, graphics RAM) as the 3GS, it doesn't do MMS, it does not link into Ovi store, it has "poor" battery life (well actually pretty normal for a phone with those specs).
In typical Nokia fashion it was released as a beta and the missing things are "coming" when "the community" develops them.
The Beta of the upcoming Maemo 5 update has no sign of a fix for always having to use it in landscape mode
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
That enough or you want more?
Im an ex Nokia employee and have to say what you have said in the above quote not only applies to the N900 but pretty much ALL new Nokia phones.
They release them in beta and expect the community to bug report the phones for them. But heaven forbid anyone say anything bad about the phone in their forums. You will notice that the replies sometimes dont make sense. Thats because they "remove" anything they think is not appropriate. This censorship then leads to pretty much fanboys only blowing smoke up Nokias ass and thats the way they like it.
Corporate meetings would be held and the first 30 mins of a 45 min meeting would usually be "what can we do to stop Apple?" and then the usual crap about how the OVI store is so much better than the apps store, how resistive touch screens and qwerty keyboards (aka the monstrosity on the N97) beat capacitive screens and onscreen keyboards. And how you can download non DRM tracks onto your phone (forgetting the fact that all the music from the OVI store is actually DRM locked).
Its no secret that Nokia used to make good phones.
My old 8250 was the most robust phone i have ever owned (and it was blue screened).
But then they got too much power/popularity. Had to keep up with the jones's and add bigger and better cameras (even though they never quite stood up to the likes of sony for picture quality)
They branched out in too many directions and tried to make everyone happy.
Apple has 1 (the 4G or whatever it will be called).
True this may have different capacity and colours ala the 3Gs but its basically 1 phone.
This is the reason why Apple are commanding the market the way they are. They have a focus and a goal. Lets do one product but do it really well.
Maybe its time for these other companies like Nokia to take a long hard look at the crap they are producing and instead of suing to gain the ability to copy Apple try put some of them R&D dollars to some good use.
Having thought about it, the complaint to the ITC is pretty heavy-handed by Nokia. By saying "virtually all" Apple products they are threatening to pull out a gun; and we all know how well that goes down at a wedding (or is that just my family?). This is not a position you pull back from with any dignity. The stakes for Nokia are now getting pretty high; victory is surely the only outcome the board members responsible could survive? Righteous vengeance is not really Apple's style these days; making better products than anybody else is Steve's preferred method of crushing the opposition, but I think this could get very ugly.
You probably won't pay any more attention to him as me, and at least I didn't have to type out something similar to just have it go flying over your head.
Having thought about it, the complaint to the ITC is pretty heavy-handed by Nokia. By saying "virtually all" Apple products they are threatening to pull out a gun; and we all know how well that goes down at a wedding (or is that just my family?). This is not a position you pull back from with any dignity. The stakes for Nokia are now getting pretty high; victory is surely the only outcome the board members responsible could survive? Righteous vengeance is not really Apple's style these days; making better products than anybody else is Steve's preferred method of crushing the opposition, but I think this could get very ugly.
It will be blood bath the likes we had never seen before. Nokia made a very serious strategic blunder by threatening all of Apple's products, they had opened a can of worms that even Microsoft in it's heyday dare not open against other tech companies. Steve Jobs and Apple will fight this and believe me, Apple will do the same against Nokia and it will not end well for Nokia regardless of the outcome .
Anyone who thinks Apple didn't infringe on at least one of Nokia's patents is really dumb. And everyone who thinks that Nokia didn't infringe on at leas one of Apple's patents is really dumb. Companies knowingly infringe on other companies' patents all the time and just pray that the other company doesn't notice. It's cheaper than developing your own technology and ends up being cheaper to do even if they get sued and have to pay royalties.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
well stated. moreover, "kitchen sink" claims like Nokia's ITC filing are always a sign of legal weakness, not strength. just hoping "something will stick." if Nokia had a "silver bullet" they certainly would have played that card instead. (four mixed metaphors in one paragraph!)
but Nokia's big problem is that this all reeks of desperation.
what an inane post. DED can be fairly criticized for many things, but being "stupid" is not one of them.
You might want to learn the art of reading, I didn't say he was stupid, I said his articles are stupid. So I quess that would make your post the inane one?
You probably won't pay any more attention to him as me, and at least I didn't have to type out something similar to just have it go flying over your head.
Whoever the hell Nathan is on that site he's a complete moron who knows jack squat of Apple+NeXT+all corporations acquired by Apple's entire patent portfolio.
How did Apple's Mac business violate Nokia's patents?
Nokia only recently entered the netbook business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacTripper
I guess this one will drag on like the Polaroid/Kodak instant camera suit dragged on and on until the very technology changed to digital which got Polaroid nowhere.
And ended with both companies losers in a market they once dominated.
It only works in portrait mode for phonecalls, it has the same hardware (CPU, graphics RAM) as the 3GS, it doesn't do MMS, it does not link into Ovi store, it has "poor" battery life (well actually pretty normal for a phone with those specs).
Only works in portrait mode for phone calls, no MMS, no app store and poor battery life. Sounds like another smartphone platform at launch, doesn't it?
Take a look at the reviews. The tech press reaction has been very positive despite what's missing. The iPhone has proven that what's important isn't supporting every feature under the sun, the important thing is making sure what's supported is easy to use.
Quote:
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
Just like Symbian smashes the iPhone, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if the N900 outsells the top selling Android phone in 2010.
Quote:
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
It's incompatible with AT&T's 3G network but it'll do GSM/EDGE on AT&T just fine.
Quote:
That enough or you want more?
I'd be interested to know if you've tried it and, if so, what your personal thoughts on it are.
Comments
In typical Nokia fashion it was released as a beta and the missing things are "coming" when "the community" develops them.
The Beta of the upcoming Maemo 5 update has no sign of a fix for always having to use it in landscape mode
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
That enough or you want more?
So, tell us what you know about Nokia's current flagship phone, the N900. Have you played with one? What do you think of it?
I would love to see a good synapse of this complaint. I cannot even begin to phantom where in the UI apple leveraged what Nokia or any of it's symbiam partners were doing.
I think you mean 'synopsis', not 'synapse'. And 'fathom', not 'phantom'. And I think their partner is 'Symbian', not 'symbiam'.
Making a minor typo is one thing. Having grammar that's so far off as to ludicrous is another.
Nokia sucks , apple rocks...
Look at how games are played in iphone, MUTI-touch supports up to 5 fingers, nokia?? NONE.... NOKIA should REALLY think how suck their flagship phone N97 is ... this is TOTALLY rubbish...
Technically, Nokia doesn't need to use a technology to enforce its patents. It DOES, however look suspicious for them to claim they invented all those things and never used ANY of them.
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
I don't know anyone who claimed that Apple invented cell phones. Please drop the sily strawman arguments.
The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on only a few patents isn't proof of anything. If I were to draw ANY inferences, it would be either that they don't think Apple is infringing the rest or they consider the rest so weak that they have no desire to defend them against someone with deep pockets.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Exactly. That's the real issue and Apple's position looks pretty strong.
It is not only about how much Nokia is asking. Apple also claiming that Nokia want, in addition to money, from Apple to license some of its iPhone patents to them.
Yet Nokia has no right to demand that under the trade organization rules. Apple can choose to license or not to license - as long as they do it fairly if they choose to license.
Apple can choose to license or not to license - as long as they do it fairly if they choose to license.
It only works in portrait mode for phonecalls, it has the same hardware (CPU, graphics RAM) as the 3GS, it doesn't do MMS, it does not link into Ovi store, it has "poor" battery life (well actually pretty normal for a phone with those specs).
In typical Nokia fashion it was released as a beta and the missing things are "coming" when "the community" develops them.
The Beta of the upcoming Maemo 5 update has no sign of a fix for always having to use it in landscape mode
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
That enough or you want more?
Im an ex Nokia employee and have to say what you have said in the above quote not only applies to the N900 but pretty much ALL new Nokia phones.
They release them in beta and expect the community to bug report the phones for them. But heaven forbid anyone say anything bad about the phone in their forums. You will notice that the replies sometimes dont make sense. Thats because they "remove" anything they think is not appropriate. This censorship then leads to pretty much fanboys only blowing smoke up Nokias ass and thats the way they like it.
Corporate meetings would be held and the first 30 mins of a 45 min meeting would usually be "what can we do to stop Apple?" and then the usual crap about how the OVI store is so much better than the apps store, how resistive touch screens and qwerty keyboards (aka the monstrosity on the N97) beat capacitive screens and onscreen keyboards. And how you can download non DRM tracks onto your phone (forgetting the fact that all the music from the OVI store is actually DRM locked).
Its no secret that Nokia used to make good phones.
My old 8250 was the most robust phone i have ever owned (and it was blue screened).
But then they got too much power/popularity. Had to keep up with the jones's and add bigger and better cameras (even though they never quite stood up to the likes of sony for picture quality)
They branched out in too many directions and tried to make everyone happy.
This is where Apple got it right.
Next year so far Nokia have 14 new phones coming out (http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia-phones-f-1-3.php) note the lack of N series and E series.
Apple has 1 (the 4G or whatever it will be called).
True this may have different capacity and colours ala the 3Gs but its basically 1 phone.
This is the reason why Apple are commanding the market the way they are. They have a focus and a goal. Lets do one product but do it really well.
Maybe its time for these other companies like Nokia to take a long hard look at the crap they are producing and instead of suing to gain the ability to copy Apple try put some of them R&D dollars to some good use.
/rant off
You will notice that the replies sometimes dont make sense. Thats because they "remove" anything they think is not appropriate.
I'm confused about who you are talking about here, Apple or Nokia?
I made you some cookies.
Ha!
At this rate I'll be 120 years old before I reach your heady post count.
I'm confused about who you are talking about here, Apple or Nokia?
Nokia
if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY
Apple already has, but Nokia is trying to single out Apple and treat them differently.
Aw screw it, like him or hate him DED did a pretty good job here:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/1...kia/#more-3998
You probably won't pay any more attention to him as me, and at least I didn't have to type out something similar to just have it go flying over your head.
Having thought about it, the complaint to the ITC is pretty heavy-handed by Nokia. By saying "virtually all" Apple products they are threatening to pull out a gun; and we all know how well that goes down at a wedding (or is that just my family?). This is not a position you pull back from with any dignity. The stakes for Nokia are now getting pretty high; victory is surely the only outcome the board members responsible could survive? Righteous vengeance is not really Apple's style these days; making better products than anybody else is Steve's preferred method of crushing the opposition, but I think this could get very ugly.
It will be blood bath the likes we had never seen before. Nokia made a very serious strategic blunder by threatening all of Apple's products, they had opened a can of worms that even Microsoft in it's heyday dare not open against other tech companies. Steve Jobs and Apple will fight this and believe me, Apple will do the same against Nokia and it will not end well for Nokia regardless of the outcome .
Nokia
Are you sure, because Apple has quite the history of censoring their support pages
Aw screw it, like him or hate him DED did a pretty good job here:
No he didn't, it is just as stupid as any of his articles.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
well stated. moreover, "kitchen sink" claims like Nokia's ITC filing are always a sign of legal weakness, not strength. just hoping "something will stick." if Nokia had a "silver bullet" they certainly would have played that card instead. (four mixed metaphors in one paragraph!)
but Nokia's big problem is that this all reeks of desperation.
No he didn't, it is just as stupid as any of his articles.
what an inane post. DED can be fairly criticized for many things, but being "stupid" is not one of them.
what an inane post. DED can be fairly criticized for many things, but being "stupid" is not one of them.
You might want to learn the art of reading, I didn't say he was stupid, I said his articles are stupid. So I quess that would make your post the inane one?
Ha!
At this rate I'll be 120 years old before I reach your heady post count.
Wow! You have been here a long time. By my calculations it would take 97 years at your current rate. See, you?ve already saved 23 years.
Apple already has, but Nokia is trying to single out Apple and treat them differently.
Aw screw it, like him or hate him DED did a pretty good job here:
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2009/1...kia/#more-3998
You probably won't pay any more attention to him as me, and at least I didn't have to type out something similar to just have it go flying over your head.
Whoever the hell Nathan is on that site he's a complete moron who knows jack squat of Apple+NeXT+all corporations acquired by Apple's entire patent portfolio.
Nokia only recently entered the netbook business.
I guess this one will drag on like the Polaroid/Kodak instant camera suit dragged on and on until the very technology changed to digital which got Polaroid nowhere.
And ended with both companies losers in a market they once dominated.
It only works in portrait mode for phonecalls, it has the same hardware (CPU, graphics RAM) as the 3GS, it doesn't do MMS, it does not link into Ovi store, it has "poor" battery life (well actually pretty normal for a phone with those specs).
Only works in portrait mode for phone calls, no MMS, no app store and poor battery life. Sounds like another smartphone platform at launch, doesn't it?
Take a look at the reviews. The tech press reaction has been very positive despite what's missing. The iPhone has proven that what's important isn't supporting every feature under the sun, the important thing is making sure what's supported is easy to use.
It will be smashed in sales by Android phones which is what it will compete with.
Just like Symbian smashes the iPhone, huh? I wouldn't be surprised if the N900 outsells the top selling Android phone in 2010.
It is incompatible with AT&T but will work with T-Mobile.
It's incompatible with AT&T's 3G network but it'll do GSM/EDGE on AT&T just fine.
That enough or you want more?
I'd be interested to know if you've tried it and, if so, what your personal thoughts on it are.