Nokia is no patent 'troll' and I suspect they have legitimate claims. However, I suspect they is more going on behind the scenes than meets the eye. Nokia missed the boat on smart phones and bringing a lawsuit against Apple may be their way of trying to force some sort of cross-licening agreement. Nokia may want access to some of Apple's technologies and filling a lawsuit *may* be just one tactic to get them to the table. Bruce Sewell is now Apple's General Council and he has lots of experience, at this, from his years at Intel...
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
I was going to type a long response, but I think TBell covered it pretty well above.
I would love to see a good synapse of this complaint. I cannot even begin to phantom where in the UI apple leveraged what Nokia or any of it's symbiam partners were doing.
For the more technical aspects.. why cannot they say for example.... their patent introduces the concept of using" foo circuit in this pattern under this material doing this and that where as apple uses the same circuit with the same material doing this and that and this".
Sorry... but I am a bit upset by the use of the courts for negotiation and general business practices. Along with thinking as others do... that the patent system is screwed beyond repair.
These patented technologies are said to allow Nokia to facilitate better user experiences, lower manufacturing costs, create devices of smaller size and deliver longer battery life.
The last 3 items I'm sure they delivered on, but the first one is way out of their league.
Throw a bunch of feces against the wall and see if any sticks. That pretty much sums up Nokia's strategy wouldn't you say?
Pretty much sums it up. The bigger problem that they are having is that they are releasing defective devices right out of the factory. The N97 had a multi-tude of issues. The E90 had design flaws, as well as the N95. Nokia is surly on hard times but getting technology from Apple is not going to help them. They need to go back to the core and fix the problems before they leave the factory.
I agree with you that their recent phones have been colossal disasters. 100%. The N97 sold millions but had quite many returned. Many, many. I am friends with the flagship store manager here in Helsinki and I took mine back after just 10 days. Got an N86 which is a much better phone. Anyway, Apple is claiming that they have to pay more than anyone else. This could be the case but then LG, Ericsson, Motorola, etc... would all have to disclose how much they are paying for the same technology. If Apple is paying the same, then it would stand to reason that they do not have a case. If Nokia is over charging them, which might be the case, then Apple has a valid argument. Until someone has actual insight into all of the tech specs, and pricing models, a clear outcome can not be reached.
For years and years I swore by Nokia phones - I tried Sony/Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola(by far the worst!) etc but none had the familiar, well designed interface as the Nokia's had and generally the hardware was better built then the competition.
Slowly though I wanted to do more then just make phone calls - I wanted to browse the web and see the web as it was on my desktop, I wanted to send receive emails through various methods and it was at this point that I started to get frustrated with just how slow Nokia were in bringing these technologies to the market.
The speed of change has caught them cold much like the Internet explosion caught MS cold and they are scrabbling to catch up - I use my iPhone for just about everything now it really has become my tool of choice - it's not about a phone anymore it's about compact mobile computers that can also make phone calls. Complete reversal.
I would like to hope Nokia can turn it around but I fear they have too many entrenched mobile phone concepts that they will be unable to respond quick enough.
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
Doesn't Apple buy the wireless chips/functionality from others? So why would Apple be sued?
Except that Apple has licensed Qualcomm and other's technologies.
Nokia was not the SOLE inventor of mobile technology they were a contributor along with other parties, other parties Apple has agreements with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobabyrtrns
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
sounds like they are saying that everything about the iphone is copied from them. from top to bottom.
so why not just say it. and whip out their version for the world to see all the nasty cheating that Apple has done.
I find it very very very hard to believe that Apple's legal department didn't do their due diligence on all possible patents 20 times over before the iphone launch in 2007 and since.
Or that Nokia's lawyers took 2 and a half years (and how much in profit for Apple) to realize and do something about this blatant thievery of their hard work.
I really agree with this statement.. If it really is about patent infringment and not about nokia running around with their heads cut off cause their marketshare is plumetting, then why did it take the almost 3 years to figure this out?
How is it they only figured it out just after they found out they lost their market share and had nothing inovative enough to get it back with..
Nokia is no patent 'troll' and I suspect they have legitimate claims.
Nokia's initial GSM-related patent "infringement" claims stand, as in Apple uses GSM, so is required to pay license fees.
However...Nokia is trying to make Apple pay more than anyone (therefore discriminatory licensing, which is forbidden by standards patents) and requiring Apple to grant some cross-licensing deals. Again also not allowed for licensing of standards patents.
Nokia is now throwing in these extra "alleged infringements" to try and get Apple to cross-license.
Nokia's initial GSM-related patent "infringement" claims stand, as in Apple uses GSM, so is required to pay license fees.
However...Nokia is trying to make Apple pay more than anyone (therefore discriminatory licensing, which is forbidden by standards patents) and requiring Apple to grant some cross-licensing deals. Again also not allowed for licensing of standards patents.
Nokia is now throwing in these extra "alleged infringements" to try and get Apple to cross-license.
I don¡t know which of the two is right but as everyone says that why Nokia sued Apple 2 years later. If Apple thought that Nokia was charging too much, why didn't made a claim to ITU or GSM Association? Why wait until Nokia sued them to contersue?
If it works in one direction it works in the other.
Actually, it's only a battle between two multibillion companies and we don't know 90% or more of the real facts
The only thing that will stop Nokia's downward slide is innovation + rethinking what it means for users to interact with mobile devices + a great interface/OS + a robust app store + reducing some of that hardware fragmentation.
In short, Nokia has to start over. This isn't 7 years ago.
So, tell us what you know about Nokia's current flagship phone, the N900. Have you played with one? What do you think of it?
More on topic, I'm going to assume that Nokia holds some pretty basic UI patents for cellular devices. I'm thinking about obvious things like hitting the reply button to reply to an SMS message. Real stupid things, like Microsoft's double click patent, that should have passed into the common domain long ago.
The big problem here is that patent law hasn't kept up with changing technology. I don't think that 20 year patent terms suit fields such as electronics and user interfaces. Any honest competitive advantage is lost far sooner. They should be much shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwydion
Actually, it's only a battle between two multibillion companies and we don't know 90% or more of the real facts
This is possibly the most sensible statement you'll see on any website regarding this case.
I really agree with this statement.. If it really is about patent infringment and not about nokia running around with their heads cut off cause their marketshare is plumetting, then why did it take the almost 3 years to figure this out?
How is it they only figured it out just after they found out they lost their market share and had nothing inovative enough to get it back with..
Mmm, Nokia and Apple have said that they have been negotiating this since 2007.
Comments
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
You can tap dance around the issue all you want. Nokia doesn't have to invent another phone for the next 10 years, but if they own the patents, APPLE HAS TO PAY. Is that too hard to understand. It has nothing to do with Android, multi-touch, UI's, etc... It is about Apple infringing on Nokia's patents. Is that too hard for you to understand.
I was going to type a long response, but I think TBell covered it pretty well above.
I would love to see a good synapse of this complaint. I cannot even begin to phantom where in the UI apple leveraged what Nokia or any of it's symbiam partners were doing.
For the more technical aspects.. why cannot they say for example.... their patent introduces the concept of using" foo circuit in this pattern under this material doing this and that where as apple uses the same circuit with the same material doing this and that and this".
Sorry... but I am a bit upset by the use of the courts for negotiation and general business practices. Along with thinking as others do... that the patent system is screwed beyond repair.
This is the legal equivalent of a dummy spit
These patented technologies are said to allow Nokia to facilitate better user experiences, lower manufacturing costs, create devices of smaller size and deliver longer battery life.
The last 3 items I'm sure they delivered on, but the first one is way out of their league.
Throw a bunch of feces against the wall and see if any sticks. That pretty much sums up Nokia's strategy wouldn't you say?
Pretty much sums it up. The bigger problem that they are having is that they are releasing defective devices right out of the factory. The N97 had a multi-tude of issues. The E90 had design flaws, as well as the N95. Nokia is surly on hard times but getting technology from Apple is not going to help them. They need to go back to the core and fix the problems before they leave the factory.
Shortened for brevity. No offense meant.
I agree with you that their recent phones have been colossal disasters. 100%. The N97 sold millions but had quite many returned. Many, many. I am friends with the flagship store manager here in Helsinki and I took mine back after just 10 days. Got an N86 which is a much better phone. Anyway, Apple is claiming that they have to pay more than anyone else. This could be the case but then LG, Ericsson, Motorola, etc... would all have to disclose how much they are paying for the same technology. If Apple is paying the same, then it would stand to reason that they do not have a case. If Nokia is over charging them, which might be the case, then Apple has a valid argument. Until someone has actual insight into all of the tech specs, and pricing models, a clear outcome can not be reached.
For years and years I swore by Nokia phones - I tried Sony/Ericsson, Samsung, Motorola(by far the worst!) etc but none had the familiar, well designed interface as the Nokia's had and generally the hardware was better built then the competition.
Slowly though I wanted to do more then just make phone calls - I wanted to browse the web and see the web as it was on my desktop, I wanted to send receive emails through various methods and it was at this point that I started to get frustrated with just how slow Nokia were in bringing these technologies to the market.
The speed of change has caught them cold much like the Internet explosion caught MS cold and they are scrabbling to catch up - I use my iPhone for just about everything now it really has become my tool of choice - it's not about a phone anymore it's about compact mobile computers that can also make phone calls. Complete reversal.
I would like to hope Nokia can turn it around but I fear they have too many entrenched mobile phone concepts that they will be unable to respond quick enough.
Sad but true.
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
Doesn't Apple buy the wireless chips/functionality from others? So why would Apple be sued?
Doesn't Apple buy the wireless chips/functionality from others? So why would Apple be sued?
I?m sure Nokia has patents that span pretty much every other aspects of mobile communication other that radio technologies.
Nokia was not the SOLE inventor of mobile technology they were a contributor along with other parties, other parties Apple has agreements with.
Ah the old typical "Nokia bad, Apple good" frothing at the mouth responses. The truth was summed up beautifully by both Solipsism and sflocal. Apple has very, very, very limited cellular experience. Only the most rabid Apple lover would think otherwise while Nokia pretty much invented cellular technology. The fact that Nokia is challenging Apple on a few specific patents should be proof enough that they have thought this out from a technology prospective as well as maybe a: "let's stick it to Apple" prospective. The only real winners are the lawyers.
Why, thank you Quadra.
Actually, the truth is brought out pretty clearly by reading both Nokia and Apple's complaints. From reading both, I think Apple's positions seems more realistic.
Apple really isn't claiming it isn't using Nokia's patents. Although it is challenging the validity of Nokia's patents in it's defense and counter-complaint [common legal procedure, as Nokia has the burden of proving it's patents are valid]. Apple likely at the end of the day would agree that it is using Nokia's patents.
Apple real argument, however, is claiming that both Apple and Nokia are members of a trade organization that members have agreed to make their collective patents concerning the purpose of the trade organization available to all members at fair, reasonable, and nondiscriminatory terms in order to make a standard that all companies can benefit from. The standard at issue is the GSM standard. So, according to Apple, Nokia is required to license Apple it's patents related to the GSM network at fair, reasonable and undiscrimnatory terms. Companies agree to this because they all have more to benefit from by working from a common standard as opposed to dueling it out in the market with competing standards. Sharing for the benefit of all.
Apple's real position is not that Apple shouldn't have to pay Nokia something if Nokia's patents are valid, but that the amount paid must be same as Nokia receives from all other licensees. So, if Nokia charges other companies $1 a phone, that is what it must charge Apple. Further, Apple is claiming that Nokia is trying to force Apple to cross license Apple patents that are not part of the GSM standard and as such Apple is not required to license to Nokia.
Apple's position just seems more likely to be closer to the truth. Apple already pays other members of the trade group for the right to use their patents [e.g. Sony Erickson]. Why wouldn't Apple pay Nokia it's licensing fees if they were fair, reasonable, and undiscriminatory? Nokia cannot just ask Apple for whatever it wants, but it must offer Apple the same terms as other licensees for the right to use the GSM patents.
Moreover, Apple's position will be easier to prove. Either Nokia is attempting to get more from Apple then other licensees or not. If the answer is Nokia is trying to get more from Apple, then Nokia is discriminating against Apple and Apple should prevail.
Further, Apple should easily be able to show that it's patents it is claiming Nokia is violating are not part of the trade group. If they are not, the issue just becomes one of showing whether or not Nokia is using them.
Nokia's complaint with the ITC is just designed to put added pressure on Apple to settle the matter because the ITC has the power of stopping imports and it makes decisions much quicker then a court. Apple likely will in Nokia's step and file a similar complaint with ITC.
Nice analysis.
Why, thank you Quadra.
I made you some cookies.
sounds like they are saying that everything about the iphone is copied from them. from top to bottom.
so why not just say it. and whip out their version for the world to see all the nasty cheating that Apple has done.
I find it very very very hard to believe that Apple's legal department didn't do their due diligence on all possible patents 20 times over before the iphone launch in 2007 and since.
Or that Nokia's lawyers took 2 and a half years (and how much in profit for Apple) to realize and do something about this blatant thievery of their hard work.
I really agree with this statement.. If it really is about patent infringment and not about nokia running around with their heads cut off cause their marketshare is plumetting, then why did it take the almost 3 years to figure this out?
How is it they only figured it out just after they found out they lost their market share and had nothing inovative enough to get it back with..
Nokia is no patent 'troll' and I suspect they have legitimate claims.
Nokia's initial GSM-related patent "infringement" claims stand, as in Apple uses GSM, so is required to pay license fees.
However...Nokia is trying to make Apple pay more than anyone (therefore discriminatory licensing, which is forbidden by standards patents) and requiring Apple to grant some cross-licensing deals. Again also not allowed for licensing of standards patents.
Nokia is now throwing in these extra "alleged infringements" to try and get Apple to cross-license.
Nokia's initial GSM-related patent "infringement" claims stand, as in Apple uses GSM, so is required to pay license fees.
However...Nokia is trying to make Apple pay more than anyone (therefore discriminatory licensing, which is forbidden by standards patents) and requiring Apple to grant some cross-licensing deals. Again also not allowed for licensing of standards patents.
Nokia is now throwing in these extra "alleged infringements" to try and get Apple to cross-license.
I don¡t know which of the two is right but as everyone says that why Nokia sued Apple 2 years later. If Apple thought that Nokia was charging too much, why didn't made a claim to ITU or GSM Association? Why wait until Nokia sued them to contersue?
If it works in one direction it works in the other.
Actually, it's only a battle between two multibillion companies and we don't know 90% or more of the real facts
My my, how times have changed in 2009.
The only thing that will stop Nokia's downward slide is innovation + rethinking what it means for users to interact with mobile devices + a great interface/OS + a robust app store + reducing some of that hardware fragmentation.
In short, Nokia has to start over. This isn't 7 years ago.
So, tell us what you know about Nokia's current flagship phone, the N900. Have you played with one? What do you think of it?
More on topic, I'm going to assume that Nokia holds some pretty basic UI patents for cellular devices. I'm thinking about obvious things like hitting the reply button to reply to an SMS message. Real stupid things, like Microsoft's double click patent, that should have passed into the common domain long ago.
The big problem here is that patent law hasn't kept up with changing technology. I don't think that 20 year patent terms suit fields such as electronics and user interfaces. Any honest competitive advantage is lost far sooner. They should be much shorter.
Actually, it's only a battle between two multibillion companies and we don't know 90% or more of the real facts
This is possibly the most sensible statement you'll see on any website regarding this case.
I really agree with this statement.. If it really is about patent infringment and not about nokia running around with their heads cut off cause their marketshare is plumetting, then why did it take the almost 3 years to figure this out?
How is it they only figured it out just after they found out they lost their market share and had nothing inovative enough to get it back with..
Mmm, Nokia and Apple have said that they have been negotiating this since 2007.