Apple tablet may ship with multi-touch version of iWork

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  • Reply 121 of 172
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lifterus View Post


    Can somebody please explain the logic behind the hype of this device and why it won't end up like the Newton?



    - It's too big to carry in your pocket. That's what the iPhone is for.



    - Presumably far too weak for power computing (Photoshop, etc.). That's what a desktop or Macbook is for.



    - Presumably a lot more expensive than the $200 "Netbooks" available.

    ...



    I bolded out the flaw in your argument. Netbooks are a form factor, not a price category.



    The Apple tablet is purported to be a "netbook replacement" from a functional/design standpoint. The fact that it may or may not be a certain price is irrelevant.



    In any case, there are no netbooks of any worth for $200. Most netbooks start at $400 (realistically), and the only good ones are more like $600-$800. The tablet is likely to be in the top end of the Netbook price range, but still in the same range.
  • Reply 122 of 172
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,397member
    Quote:

    I'm relatively certain that whatever gesture vocabulary they've dreamed up will feel very natural and obvious, once you've used it. Which is why I'm also pretty certain the "three finger down" thing is just made up.



    Like to think so, but the last shuffle makes me nervous.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pixelcruncher View Post


    I'm not sure what Apple has in store but the idea that any of the regular buying public wants to learn multi-touch gestures is out of line with how much they use the existing multitouch gestures. I would bet 99% of casual Mac buyers don't even know more than a couple gestures or that many of their apps have differing multi-touch gestures of their own.



    There's also the very serious consideration that Mac devices don't always register touches correctly. That would be incredibly frustrating for working in an office app suite where speed and precision would be valued.



    Then again, this is all rumor. Apple doesn't even think the average user is capable of dealing with folders on their iPhones, much less learning a set of "complex" multi-touch gestures that may differ between apps. In the end the device will be judged by Apple's core fans on its forward thinking, but by the rest of the public on how easy it is to operate vs their laptops. If this is supposed to be a productivity device with office programs like iWork, then it stands to reason that it will need to be able to compete with the devices that offer the same functionality. More than ever, I hope Apple allows the tablet to be used with an external keyboard, something they have refused to allow with the iPhone.



    1. CES saw a keyboard you can just plug a Touch and/or an iPhone into.

    2. Most of my MB Pro using friends do not in fact really know or use any of the gestures except maybe two finger scrolling.

    3. I've been computing for 25 years and since I reboot infrequently when my old iPod click wheel freezes, can never remember which two buttons I'm supposed to press (and actually recently learned online you're supposed to push the hold switch on and off before whatever the keypress is).



    So I repeat that multiple memorized gestures are not going to be the next great thing. Mice took some adaptation, sure, but you saw something moving on the screen as your hand moved and you could see your destination. With umpteen gestures doing multiple things most of which are NOT screen targets you're in another universe entirely.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    I've been an enthusiastic user of computers since almost the day they first became available and in all that time, the one thing a computer has never been able to successfully replace is that simple thing you do when you pull out a pen and a piece of paper, or draw on the back of a napkin in a restaurant. It's one of the most natural human communication activities but it simply can't be done on a computer. The closest I ever got was a series of Palm and PocketPC devices with styluses but there were innumerable problems ...



    I don't want to see a stylus, but if there isn't some kind of solution in the tablet for simple drawing, then it will not be up to spec as far as I can see.



    Sure, you'll be able to draw with your finger, and sure the bigger screen will make that even easier, but anyone who uses a pen seriously can tell you that a finger is not a pen and never will be. It's pretty obvious that pens and writing devices wouldn't have been invented at all, if fingers would suffice. The pen is probably the biggest single invention of all time and there is yet no handy, universal, natural, computerised replacement for it. If a tablet is going to replace pads of paper, it has to have some kind of pen or pen-like input.



    The tablet either has to have a stylus (the easy solution), or it has to have some completely unknown, totally new way of making your fingers mimic a pen in software. If it doesn't, then it's only really solved the problem of keyboard entry, not stylus entry.



    The stylus preceded the pen - likely by a few hundred thousand years when the first man used a long stick to draw in the sand without getting down on the ground, or found s/he could do more complicated output with a sharpened point.



    On the other hand, cave paintings show that "ink" has been around for tens of thousands of years, although many ancient cultures opted for inscribing with chisel-like "pens" (much more stylus than pen) in clay tablets, stone, wood (runes, e.g.).



    dipping a writing instrument like a quill in ink was the next great innovation - along with paint brushes and other tools for slathering liquid media on solid surfaces, and the fountain pen, carrying its own ink supply was likely the revolutionary output device sensation of its relatively recent era (I hear people lined up outside pen shops for days to be among the early adopters ), holding its own until supplanted by the ballpoint, sharpies, etc.



    but meanwhile, mechanical personal typemaking devices - from typewriters to linotype to word processors to PC's took over writing, and cameras and then cameras coupled with software supplanted virtual image-making for the average person - and these technologies currently dominate.



    charting the arc of that progress, virtual keyboards and knowing that you mean to make a precise fine line with a finger on a touch screen sometimes and a thick one with another nuance while having carefully learned sets of gestures to control the project at hand cut against that grain and seem a tall order for a tech bent on writing the next chapter in how humans create writing and images.



    surprise me, Apple! Please......
  • Reply 123 of 172
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Building up my war-chest for the purchase.....



    Lord, can you imagine the lines around the block at all the stores this product is going to generate on day 1? It's going to make the iphone launch seem like lunch time at McDonalds.
  • Reply 124 of 172
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


    Like to think so, but the last shuffle makes me nervous.



    I see what you mean, but I doubt the Shuffle is a harbinger of a tablet UI.



    ......



    Quote:

    The stylus preceded the pen - likely by a few hundred thousand years when the first man used a long stick to draw in the sand without getting down on the ground, or found s/he could do more complicated output with a sharpened point.



    On the other hand, cave paintings show that "ink" has been around for tens of thousands of years, although many ancient cultures opted for inscribing with chisel-like "pens" (much more stylus than pen) in clay tablets, stone, wood (runes, e.g.).



    dipping a writing instrument like a quill in ink was the next great innovation - along with paint brushes and other tools for slathering liquid media on solid surfaces, and the fountain pen, carrying its own ink supply was likely the revolutionary output device sensation of its relatively recent era (I hear people lined up outside pen shops for days to be among the early adopters ), holding its own until supplanted by the ballpoint, sharpies, etc.



    but meanwhile, mechanical personal typemaking devices - from typewriters to linotype to word processors to PC's took over writing, and cameras and then cameras coupled with software supplanted virtual image-making for the average person - and these technologies currently dominate.



    charting the arc of that progress, virtual keyboards and knowing that you mean to make a precise fine line with a finger on a touch screen sometimes and a thick one with another nuance while having carefully learned sets of gestures to control the project at hand cut against that grain and seem a tall order for a tech bent on writing the next chapter in how humans create writing and images.



    surprise me, Apple! Please......



    A very well thought out post. I would just add that if human beings had evolved with the ability to exude pigment through their finger tips, the history of writing implements would have been much different.
  • Reply 125 of 172
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigpics View Post


    ... The stylus preceded the pen - likely by a few hundred thousand years when the first man used a long stick to draw in the sand without getting down on the ground, or found s/he could do more complicated output with a sharpened point.



    On the other hand, cave paintings show that "ink" has been around for tens of thousands of years, although many ancient cultures opted for inscribing with chisel-like "pens" (much more stylus than pen) in clay tablets, stone, wood (runes, e.g.).



    dipping a writing instrument like a quill in ink was the next great innovation - along with paint brushes and other tools for slathering liquid media on solid surfaces, and the fountain pen, carrying its own ink supply was likely the revolutionary output device sensation of its relatively recent era (I hear people lined up outside pen shops for days to be among the early adopters ), holding its own until supplanted by the ballpoint, sharpies, etc. .....



    I think we are basically in agreement, but I should point out that when I was using the word "pen," I was using it as a sort of shorthand to cover this whole category. So styluses, using ink or clay, quills etc. were all intended to be covered by that term in my post.



    What I was trying to get across is that moment of human communication when a bunch of folks are all pushing a piece of paper back and forth and expressing ideas on it has yet to be efficiently or usefully replaced using computers, especially *mobile* computers.



    Some ideas can only be expressed, or even thought in the first place, by drawing.
  • Reply 126 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Which reminds me of the oft cited Jobs quote from '96, shortly before he retook the reigns at Apple: "If I were running Apple, I would milk the Macintosh for all it's worth -- and get busy on the next great thing. The PC wars are over. Done. Microsoft won a long time ago."



    Given that it's been widely reported that the iPhone was actually the first, somewhat pared down version of a tablet project that had been in the works for perhaps the last 10 years, you have to wonder if Apple isn't intent on simply changing the conversation away from the desktop market they can never dominate and over to a whole new paradigm. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to imagine that Apple (Jobs) sees their idea of a touch based computer as the new Mac compared to extent PCs-- even Apple's own PCs.



    Good call, I hadn't thought about that quote for quite awhile, but I remember how much it freaked people out at the time. Of course it always pays not to take The Steve totally literally, but based on the last ten years of evidence I'd say it's pretty clear that he has been taking Apple in "next great thing" directions instead of trying to refight old battles.
  • Reply 127 of 172
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    Good call, I hadn't thought about that quote for quite awhile, but I remember how much it freaked people out at the time. Of course it always pays not to take The Steve totally literally, but based on the last ten years of evidence I'd say it's pretty clear that he has been taking Apple in "next great thing" directions instead of trying to refight old battles.



    And you can bet that this time, should a new tablet gestural device prove successful, they're not going to be making any deals with MS to license look and feel in exchange for any favors.
  • Reply 128 of 172
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,397member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    I think we are basically in agreement.

    Some ideas can only be expressed, or even thought in the first place, by drawing.



    Yup we are, but I'm one of those disadvantaged wordy nerds who "cain't draw worth a lick" - so I write a lot!!
  • Reply 129 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Why is there this idea that Apple is simply going to take an already existing OS without any alterations for the completely different device. They tailored the AppleTV OS and iPhone OS UI and APIs for their respective devices so why should we expect anything less for an Apple tablet?



    Where did I mention Apple will use an existing, unaltered OS for the tablet? I was just saying that between Mac OS and iPhone OS, Mac OS would take more advantage of the bigger screen and better hardware.



    In fact, I believe Apple is making Tablet OS, even though its only difference from OS X may be the different interface to suit Multi-touch
  • Reply 130 of 172
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lukeskymac View Post


    Where did I mention Apple will use an existing, unaltered OS for the tablet? I was just saying that between Mac OS and iPhone OS, Mac OS would take more advantage of the bigger screen and better hardware.



    In fact, I believe Apple is making Tablet OS, even though its only difference from OS X may be the different interface to suit Multi-touch



    Yeah, but you could as easily say that the "only difference" between OS X and the iPhone OS is that the latter is tailored to suit a small screen device with constrained hardware, which is in fact the case.



    It's clear that an Apple tablet will run something derived from OS X that matches its components to the hardware and has a UI that makes the most of the screen real estate. We can call it whatever we like, the fact is it that Apple is moving towards a continuum of OS iterations that all share the OS X code base and all are customized to the device at hand. Getting hung up on what's "real" OS X sort of misses the point, IMO.
  • Reply 131 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    And you can bet that this time, should a new tablet gestural device prove successful, they're not going to be making any deals with MS to license look and feel in exchange for any favors.



    Well it wasn't exactly "look and feel" and they weren't exactly "favors," but I take your point anyway. Apple isn't indebted to anyone now. No more "mother may I" required.
  • Reply 132 of 172
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    ... It's clear that an Apple tablet will run something derived from OS X that matches its components to the hardware and has a UI that makes the most of the screen real estate. ...



    I'm interested in exactly how they will change the GUI. The closer it gets, the more I think of how awful most iPhone apps are going to look when they are full-screen on a large tablet. I don't mean they will be fuzzy or pixelated, I just mean they will look hideous when blown up to that size.



    Think of things like the Facebook app, or even the weather widget.



    At more than double the size, they will have huge silly fonts, and blah backgrounds. It seems to me they will look pretty garish at best. Anyone looking at you using a tablet will assume that you are a senior citizen reading a large type book or something.



    There is not likely going to be a "desktop" so all apps will run full-screen. Will they let us turn the tablet sideways and run two apps side by side, or will we have to run them full screen portrait mode despite the senior citizen embarrassment thing? Will the apps have two modes and look simpler on the iPhone while allow for more detail on the tablet? Will all apps eventually have two separate versions and will we have to buy each?



    If there are apps like Pages and Numbers, how will the UI be handled? Will the inspector palette float over the top or appear when needed or be a sidebar? Will everything become a sidebar, toolbar or ribbon? Most of Apple's apps, including the iWork suite all rely on multiple windows. How will all this be interpreted on a tablet where everything will be full-screen?



    These are the really interesting questions IMO, and we won't even have a clue until the tablet is unveiled. Very frustrating to wait.
  • Reply 133 of 172
    irelandireland Posts: 17,771member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    There is not likely going to be a "desktop" so all apps will run full-screen.



    How do you know this?
  • Reply 134 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    I bolded out the flaw in your argument. Netbooks are a form factor, not a price category.



    The Apple tablet is purported to be a "netbook replacement" from a functional/design standpoint. The fact that it may or may not be a certain price is irrelevant.



    In any case, there are no netbooks of any worth for $200. Most netbooks start at $400 (realistically), and the only good ones are more like $600-$800. The tablet is likely to be in the top end of the Netbook price range, but still in the same range.



    They're both driven by the price and the form factor. They are interdependent.
  • Reply 135 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh View Post


    I think I am still most curious how you would hold/interact with the device in an interactive way. There is a reason paprbacks are the size they are, but finding a way to make a 10" device ergonomic seem like quite a challenge. Putting it flat on a desk contorts your neck, holding it at the base places added strain on wrists since the center of gravity is higher...



    It won't need to be held flat. The types of use that make sense for a tablet would be more akin to using a clipboard therefore the device would be held in the arm and you'd use the keyboard and such with one hand.



    I also have to say, looking down on the device is actually more comfortable for me than looking at a screen on a semi-upright position like on a laptop. It requires less muscle work than looking at a laptop screen and therefore should be more comfortable. In theory it shouldn't be much more work than looking over a writing pad.
  • Reply 136 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    I'm interested in exactly how they will change the GUI. The closer it gets, the more I think of how awful most iPhone apps are going to look when they are full-screen on a large tablet. I don't mean they will be fuzzy or pixelated, I just mean they will look hideous when blown up to that size.



    Think of things like the Facebook app, or even the weather widget.



    At more than double the size, they will have huge silly fonts, and blah backgrounds. It seems to me they will look pretty garish at best. Anyone looking at you using a tablet will assume that you are a senior citizen reading a large type book or something.



    There is not likely going to be a "desktop" so all apps will run full-screen. Will they let us turn the tablet sideways and run two apps side by side, or will we have to run them full screen portrait mode despite the senior citizen embarrassment thing? Will the apps have two modes and look simpler on the iPhone while allow for more detail on the tablet? Will all apps eventually have two separate versions and will we have to buy each?



    If there are apps like Pages and Numbers, how will the UI be handled? Will the inspector palette float over the top or appear when needed or be a sidebar? Will everything become a sidebar, toolbar or ribbon? Most of Apple's apps, including the iWork suite all rely on multiple windows. How will all this be interpreted on a tablet where everything will be full-screen?



    These are the really interesting questions IMO, and we won't even have a clue until the tablet is unveiled. Very frustrating to wait.



    In part I agree with you but for the rest I don't.



    I don't agree that the font size will increase because Apple has resolution independence built into its OS but it does beg how the real estate will be governed.



    Your comments about Numbers and Pages makes no sense because document editing has been proven very effective with apps like Documents to Go and QuickOffice. Having more real estate means there is the possibility to place more icons at the bottom of the screen but most importantly it will have more real estate for editing documents which is the key to document development.



    It doesn't have to be flash like the desktop version it only has to be effective and a tablet running OS X will be effective for the job as opposed to an iPhone or iPod Touch running OS X.
  • Reply 137 of 172
    philipmphilipm Posts: 240member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    I remind people that when the first Mac shipped with its mouse, the naysayers were extremely vocal.





    However, the mouse remained relatively obscure until the appearance of the Apple Macintosh; in 1984 PC columnist John C. Dvorak ironically commented on the release of this new computer with a mouse: ?There is no evidence that people want to use these things.?[2]

    A mouse now comes with most computers and many other varieties can be bought separately.



    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(computing)





    A better version:



    Dvorak's most famous prediction, coming in 1984 as a writer for the San Francisco Examiner, identified the Macintosh as a useless tool and the mouse as a 'new fangled' device he neither wanted nor needed. "The nature of the personal computer is simply not fully understood by companies like Apple (or anyone else for that matter). Apple makes the arrogant assumption of thinking that it knows what you want and need. It, unfortunately, leaves the ?why? out of the equation - as in ?why would I want this?? The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a ?mouse?. There is no evidence that people want to use these things. I dont want one of these new fangled devices."[7]



    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Dvorak#Controversy



    Apple will do it right.



    OK, so what are you proposing? Apple hires Dvorak as a consultant and does the opposite to whatever he proposes?
  • Reply 138 of 172
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I think the rumor is interesting, but surely there's a better example of a potential gesture vocabulary than "three fingers down and rotate to open an application"?



    I mean, how about touching an icon?



    I was actually thinking the same as word "complex" got my attention.



    I'm hoping for simple iPhone-like touch experience, just applied to more capable hardware (and software) than what is available for iPhone, but I'm definitely not looking forward at learning new sign language (if I decide to get tablet).



    I think that iPhone interface can be fully applied to a laptop-class tablet. I really don't see how much more gestures would be required for running apps, scrolling through documents and folders...
  • Reply 139 of 172
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I think the rumor is interesting, but surely there's a better example of a potential gesture vocabulary than "three fingers down and rotate to open an application"?



    I mean, how about touching an icon?



    This has all the earmarks of a controlled leak. Sounds ridiculous.
  • Reply 140 of 172
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,664member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    This has all the earmarks of a controlled leak. Sounds ridiculous.



    Someone (I apologize for forgetting who) posted a link to some old Fingerworks documents. I noticed that one of them actually specified "three finger and rotate counterclockwise" for opening a file and clockwise for closing. The whole list includes some pretty arcane stuff, exactly the kind of "get ready for a steep learning curve" deal that has been mentioned.



    My suspicion is someone took a look at the Fingerworks stuff and just decided that Apple was going to apply that wholesale. Which seems pretty unlikely to me.
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