<strong>Every religion is wacky to those who are not part of it. It shows something about your character when you discriminate against those of another religion. i thought liberals were open minded... guess i was wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As far as religious discrimination goes the biggest offenders in this area aren't atheist liberals, but people of other religions. Most of the time liberals are just trying to prevent one religion from sticking it's face in anothers.
Yes, I think it's wacky to believe in magic underwear, burkas, exorcisms, animal sacrifices, snake handling, psychics, faith healing, astrology, creationism, etc... , but I don't have the additional prejudice of believing that such people will burn in hell for their beliefs.
As for keeping an open mind, well you've heard the quote about not letting your brain fall out.
<strong>I'm not bashing them but what they believe is simply not true: Jesus didn't come to the Northern Hemisphere and the Indians aren't the lost tribe . . . .something that could probably be proved through genetics(?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, just like all the evidence for evolution has persuaded all these creationists they were wrong.
I once asked one of these guys to explain why chickens had the genes for making teeth, even showed him the papers and offered to repeat the experiments with him so he could see for himself. He refused to even consider the evidence and suggested that even if he were to sequence up the genes himself the devil might sneak in to alter the results to deceive him. And I'm the close minded one! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
They call it the Theory of Evolution for a reason. There's as much evidence for evolution as there is for creationism. Evidence for Evolution would constitute human DNA with left over fish DNA. Or reptile. I've read up on both accounts and the lack of evidence on both sides is nothing short of surprising.
<strong>I've read up on both accounts and the lack of evidence on both sides is nothing short of surprising.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're absolutely right - I can tell you've read up on these things.
All that evidence that the earth is over 4 billion years old was faked. You know, all those fossils, tree rings, light coming in from the rest of the universe, eroded mountain tops, etc. It's obvious that the earth started at 9 AM on Oct. 23, 4004 BC - all the evidence is in the Bible.
The fact that everything in every life science and earth science is consistent with evolution just proves that all those life scientists and earth scientists are atheist/communist liars. Those couple of sentences in Genesis prove everything that needs to be proved.
Although we haven't found any yet, I'm sure we'll find more complex fossils above simpler ones in the geological strata. All those millions of fossils that turn out the other way, supporting evolution, have obviously been faked by atheist/communist scientists.
i don't particularly like the mormon religion either, solely because of their stance on homosexuality. but that's no reason to say that i don't like mormons. I've met some annoying mormons, but i've met some annoying christians too. in fact, the majority of the mormons that i have ever met (i used to work somewhere where 30-40% of the 800 or so people were mormon) were VERY cool.
At my high school I knew a lot of the Mormons there. Most were really nice, sweet, caring people. Hell, the most popular kid in school (in a good way - not the stuck up way) was Morman. There were two in particular who were assholes though.
So on one hand, they are genuinely good people. On the other hand, there's the whole "holier than thou" attitude.
...
Anyway, hasn't the Book of Morman been rewritten like over 80 times or something? Adds to the credibility, don't you think? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I sit reading this Mormon-bashing idiocy and I can't find a difference between the vomit coming from BRussell and the arguments of intellectualized racists.
It's good that you expose yourself for the prejudiced and bigoted moron you are. Good for you.
As to my "experience" with Mormons, I was raised in a Mormon household. I'm afraid that 99.99% of you have no idea what you're talking about.
This is a tremendous waste of time because fighting ignorance is like trying to dry up the ocean with a roll of Bounty, but I'll do my best:
[quote]1. they truly think they're superior to everyone else<hr></blockquote>
This comment speaks more about your own psychological state than anything else.
[quote] they raise their kids to be brats (by teaching them they're superior to everyone else)<hr></blockquote>
Anecdote?
Could it be that Mormon kids abstain from things and that leads people who do those things to believe that the Mormons are being snooty?
(I got this a lot growing up. "Oh you think you're so much better than us!?" just because I don't drink.)
Sounds like a self-esteem issue within yourself and the other people more than anything to do with the Mormons.
[quote]they'll do anything to screw non-Mormons to get ahead<hr></blockquote>
You're starting to sound like a whiner.
Anecdotes?
Evidence?
[quote]they have a really weird religion.<hr></blockquote>
You have a very weird way of thinking, what's the difference?
[quote]She liked me, yet because of her faith, she didn't feel we should start anything.<hr></blockquote>
Cultural difference.
She doesn't want to become serious with a non-Mormon, which is 100% understandable. You guys don't share common beliefs and her beliefs being validated by her partner are probably very important to her. Nothing against you, but she needs that most likely
[quote]I really do not like the Mormon church due to their extremist attempts to "convert" gays. I've read first person accounts as well as met people that have gone through this horrible "program". Some aspects include electric shock therapy and a process where a medication is given to you to make you throw up while viewing gay porn, while some sort of "happy drug" is given to you while viewing the straight variety.<hr></blockquote>
If you believe that, well... I've got a bridge to sell ya in Brooklyn.
(And you know what else they do!? They sacrifice virgins and throw them from their temple into the salt lake!!! It's totally true! A friend that knew a guy that was friends with a Mormon told me!!)
[quote]Before he decided to start a religion Smith was a known conman<hr></blockquote>
A conman in his young teens?
Interesting.
Examples?
Anecdotes?
I'll stop here and hope this doesn't turn into one of the millions of anti-Mormon threads with quotes and links to anti-Mormon websites.
<strong>They call it the Theory of Evolution for a reason. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Theory of evolution, Newtonian theory, relativity theory, quantum mechanical theory, atomic theory... Geesh, I never get tired of the "It's only a theory" argument as if being a theory means it's equivalent to opinion. Theories are fact finding machines! Just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about how science works. Besides, evolution is both fact and theory. That evolution happens is an undeniable fact. How, when, where, and by what means it happens is what evolutionary theory is about.
<strong>There's as much evidence for evolution as there is for creationism.</strong>
There's as much evidence for creationism as there is for alien visitations, psychic powers, the holocaust being a hoax, etc... That is, the type of ad hoc evidence which can't be tested, is accepted without question when it's supportive and dismissed automatically when it's not. No self respecting creationist will outline a feasible experiment which would disprove their position. And despite the representations of the creationists, the same is not true with evolution as can be witnessed by the heated debate among scientists studying bird evolution, human evolution, neanderthal relatedness, and any other aspect of evolution. Evolutionary theory is strong because it survived testing, not evaded it.
<strong>Evidence for Evolution would constitute human DNA with left over fish DNA. Or reptile. I've read up on both accounts and the lack of evidence on both sides is nothing short of surprising.</strong>[/QUOTE]
My guess is you've fallen victim to the tactic of selective example employed by the creationists. It's true that evolution predicts that genetic evidence must reflect ancestry in agreement with the fossil record and, as a matter of fact, it does. It's also true that mutation and genetic recombination shuffle, change, and sometimes eliminate genes. What the creationists tend to do is look through the literature (they don't do any actual lab research of their own) and find a gene that doesn't track through a lineage (due to the aforementioned processes- but, they don't mention that) and then completely ignore all the rest of the overwhelming evidence that two species are related. It's the equivalent reasoning to suggesting you didn't copy someone else's paper because one or two words are different.
I really don't have the time or inclination to run through yet another futile argument. Go to <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org."; target="_blank">www.talkorigins.org.</a> They provide good explanations of all the dishonest tactics the creationists have used in the past. I'm sure you'll find refutations of all the creationist "evidence" you've encountered.
One philosophical note (and the biggest trump card creationists have)- if it had been the case that the fossil record, geology, tectonics, astrophysics, paleontology, archeology, molecular biology, and genetics all supported creationism then there would be no need for faith, would there? This is the most powerful aspect of most religions (and most frustrating for rational people) - the idea that a god would purposefully provide no solid, testable evidence of it's existence and that the lack of evidence is somehow proof that we need to believe even more.
<strong>I sit reading this Mormon-bashing idiocy and I can't find a difference between the vomit coming from BRussell and the arguments of intellectualized racists.
It's good that you expose yourself for the prejudiced and bigoted moron you are. Good for you.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, groverat, I apologize and humbly admit I'm a bigoted moron.
However, LDS is not a race, it's a culture and belief system, and people should be able to evaluate and form judgments about them. [quote]As to my "experience" with Mormons, I was raised in a Mormon household.<hr></blockquote>Unless you're an outsider in an area that is dominated by that culture, I don't think you've had the experience to really know where anti-Mormon prejudice comes from. At least some of it is based on very real actions and attitudes of Mormons towards non-Mormons.
Are you a Mormon then? Your phrasing suggests you are not, yourself, a Mormon. If you are or were have you worn the magic underwear?
Also, would people please drop the victim stuff. Political correctness is just as annoying from the right with people crying about religious discrimination at the drop of a hat. How is it that if I started to wear magic underwear I would be considered silly, but once someone justifies it for religious reasons they are beyond criticism?
<strong>I'll stop here and hope this doesn't turn into one of the millions of anti-Mormon threads with quotes and links to anti-Mormon websites.</strong><hr></blockquote>
This site has information from historical documents and mormon writings and documents. It also contains personal anecdotes and thoughts form the sites author. An interesting read.
And no, I do not hate Mormons, but I get tired of listening to them denying their history. And I will no doubt hear how this link is just a mormon bashing site with no credence at all. Read the books quoted, I bet most if not all the quotes are there. And that is all I will post in this thread as it really holds little interest for me.
Even though I am a liberal rationalistic god denying leftwinger I have nothing against religious people or religion as such. I think the rationalistic view on the world doesn´t provide a sufficient explanation many people even living in very secular societies. And I accept religious explanation as just as good as the rationalistic one.
But when people try to explain religion on rationalistic ground or say that evolution is just a theory no better than creationism they are mistaken. Evolutionism is not any better to explain the world around us than Creationism but if you look for a rational explanation its the one. If you believe god created the world your explanation have to base itself on feelings, tradition, revelation, intuition or something else. If you accept rationalism as the only ground on which we find our truth about the world you lost before the fight began.
I really like one story about the Inuits on Greenland. One day Knud Rasmussen (who was the man who most thoroughly described the Inuit myts and beliefs) was sailing with one of the natives in a canoe. They appoached an huge iceberg and the native told Rasmussen to keep quite so the soul of the iceberg wouldn´t wake up, get mad and fall down on them. That explanation as totally logical to the native because he lived in a animated (animated as in things is alive, not as in Walt Disney) world. Of course what could happen was that the sound waves could trigger the iceberg to fall but from the experience of the local the other explanation was much more logical. And this and other explanations like it gave him rules that would probably secure his survival much better in Greenland than if we were to live there with all our rationality. Our explanation is no more "true" than his. They just function on two different levels. Our explanation is more "true" when evaluated through the glasses of rationalism and his is more true through the glasses of survival.
But thats not to say I will accept every effect of religion. Religion can be the cause of much repression. Just think of India and South Africa during Apartheid. I will fight those consequences to the day I die.
Hope it made just a little bit sense. Its late and I am almost sleeping. Good night.
I haven't been to church in years and don't consider myself an active Mormon.
BRussell:
[quote]However, LDS is not a race, it's a culture and belief system, and people should be able to evaluate and form judgments about them.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, you can evaluate judgements. That's fine with me. (I can also call you on being stupid.)
To make blanket statements about a culture or religion based on your very limited experience and ignorance is not an intelligent or productive way to evaluate things. It's your right to do so, and I don't dispute that at all.
Do I judge all protestants/atheists because so many non-Mormon groups love to deride and bash the religion of my birth? No.
[quote]Unless you're an outsider in an area that is dominated by that culture, I don't think you've had the experience to really know where anti-Mormon prejudice comes from.<hr></blockquote>
I know more than you about it, guaranteed. I've been on both sides of the fence and on the fence.
[quote]At least some of it is based on very real actions and attitudes of Mormons towards non-Mormons.<hr></blockquote>
I have heard very little legitimate complaints about Mormons. And the vast majority of those are from people in Utah, where so many stores shut down on Sundays.
Everything else is just disapproval of their culture, not based on affronts by Mormons.
("I hate the way they disapprove of drinking." v. "Mormons kick me and spit in my face!")
Nordstrodamus:
[quote]If you are or were have you worn the magic underwear?<hr></blockquote>
Is it possible to answer an idiotic question seriously?
[quote]Also, would people please drop the victim stuff. Political correctness is just as annoying from the right with people crying about religious discrimination at the drop of a hat.<hr></blockquote>
Who is the victim?
Where did I claim victim status?
[quote]How is it that if I started to wear magic underwear I would be considered silly, but once someone justifies it for religious reasons they are beyond criticism?<hr></blockquote>
I can criticize your ignorance just as you can criticize Mormons' belief systems.
Don't expect me to fellate you because you want to sling mud at Mormons. Should people stand and cheer when you take it upon yourself to criticize others you know so little about?
NoahJ:
I tried that site but was hit with 6 pop-ups. Find one that isn't so annoying.
I've read plenty of articles pointing out everything from Joe Smith being a pedophile to an alcoholic to a Satan worshipper. I've read about Brigham Young's Pagan rituals and blood sacrifices.
It's not interesting. I don't care if anyone believes in the tenets of the LDS Church and it certainly isn't my place as a non-participant to "defend" such a passive religion.
---
If all this talk of creationism is in relation to Mormonism then it's pretty funny how much you people don't know about the religion.
<strong>If you believe that, well... I've got a bridge to sell ya in Brooklyn.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, there is a doctor in Utah (a professor at BYU I believe) who practices these methods. His treatments are well documented, but no one does anything about it because most of the patients _want_ to have this done.
Note that I said "the Mormon Church", not "Mormons". I have absolutely no problems with Mormons as people, I simply disagree with their beliefs, which is a right of mine as a United States citizen. You may disagree with my beliefs, as it is your right as well, even as a Mormon. I intend no offense to anyone.
And please do not insult my intelligence. I am well read in almost every religion that exists/has existed in the history of the world. Test me, if you must.
I tried that site but was hit with 6 pop-ups. Find one that isn't so annoying.
I've read plenty of articles pointing out everything from Joe Smith being a pedophile to an alcoholic to a Satan worshipper. I've read about Brigham Young's Pagan rituals and blood sacrifices.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said nohing one way or the other about the religion, merely pointed to a site that was actually rather well studied. Oh, and when i hit the site I got no popups (the joys of OmniWeb!) so sorry, I did not realize it was so annoying.
Comments
<strong>Every religion is wacky to those who are not part of it. It shows something about your character when you discriminate against those of another religion. i thought liberals were open minded... guess i was wrong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As far as religious discrimination goes the biggest offenders in this area aren't atheist liberals, but people of other religions. Most of the time liberals are just trying to prevent one religion from sticking it's face in anothers.
Yes, I think it's wacky to believe in magic underwear, burkas, exorcisms, animal sacrifices, snake handling, psychics, faith healing, astrology, creationism, etc... , but I don't have the additional prejudice of believing that such people will burn in hell for their beliefs.
As for keeping an open mind, well you've heard the quote about not letting your brain fall out.
<strong>I'm not bashing them but what they believe is simply not true: Jesus didn't come to the Northern Hemisphere and the Indians aren't the lost tribe . . . .something that could probably be proved through genetics(?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, just like all the evidence for evolution has persuaded all these creationists they were wrong.
I once asked one of these guys to explain why chickens had the genes for making teeth, even showed him the papers and offered to repeat the experiments with him so he could see for himself. He refused to even consider the evidence and suggested that even if he were to sequence up the genes himself the devil might sneak in to alter the results to deceive him. And I'm the close minded one! <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>I've read up on both accounts and the lack of evidence on both sides is nothing short of surprising.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're absolutely right - I can tell you've read up on these things.
All that evidence that the earth is over 4 billion years old was faked. You know, all those fossils, tree rings, light coming in from the rest of the universe, eroded mountain tops, etc. It's obvious that the earth started at 9 AM on Oct. 23, 4004 BC - all the evidence is in the Bible.
The fact that everything in every life science and earth science is consistent with evolution just proves that all those life scientists and earth scientists are atheist/communist liars. Those couple of sentences in Genesis prove everything that needs to be proved.
Although we haven't found any yet, I'm sure we'll find more complex fossils above simpler ones in the geological strata. All those millions of fossils that turn out the other way, supporting evolution, have obviously been faked by atheist/communist scientists.
--Communist/Atheist Scientist Operative #455 over and out
<strong>Shhhhh! BRussell keep it down!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oops, you're right. OK, I'm off to convert some heteros.
Oops, there I go again!
So on one hand, they are genuinely good people. On the other hand, there's the whole "holier than thou" attitude.
...
Anyway, hasn't the Book of Morman been rewritten like over 80 times or something? Adds to the credibility, don't you think? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
It's good that you expose yourself for the prejudiced and bigoted moron you are. Good for you.
As to my "experience" with Mormons, I was raised in a Mormon household. I'm afraid that 99.99% of you have no idea what you're talking about.
[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
[quote]1. they truly think they're superior to everyone else<hr></blockquote>
This comment speaks more about your own psychological state than anything else.
[quote] they raise their kids to be brats (by teaching them they're superior to everyone else)<hr></blockquote>
Anecdote?
Could it be that Mormon kids abstain from things and that leads people who do those things to believe that the Mormons are being snooty?
(I got this a lot growing up. "Oh you think you're so much better than us!?" just because I don't drink.)
Sounds like a self-esteem issue within yourself and the other people more than anything to do with the Mormons.
[quote]they'll do anything to screw non-Mormons to get ahead<hr></blockquote>
You're starting to sound like a whiner.
Anecdotes?
Evidence?
[quote]they have a really weird religion.<hr></blockquote>
You have a very weird way of thinking, what's the difference?
[quote]She liked me, yet because of her faith, she didn't feel we should start anything.<hr></blockquote>
Cultural difference.
She doesn't want to become serious with a non-Mormon, which is 100% understandable. You guys don't share common beliefs and her beliefs being validated by her partner are probably very important to her. Nothing against you, but she needs that most likely
[quote]I really do not like the Mormon church due to their extremist attempts to "convert" gays. I've read first person accounts as well as met people that have gone through this horrible "program". Some aspects include electric shock therapy and a process where a medication is given to you to make you throw up while viewing gay porn, while some sort of "happy drug" is given to you while viewing the straight variety.<hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
If you believe that, well... I've got a bridge to sell ya in Brooklyn.
(And you know what else they do!? They sacrifice virgins and throw them from their temple into the salt lake!!! It's totally true! A friend that knew a guy that was friends with a Mormon told me!!)
[quote]Before he decided to start a religion Smith was a known conman<hr></blockquote>
A conman in his young teens?
Interesting.
Examples?
Anecdotes?
I'll stop here and hope this doesn't turn into one of the millions of anti-Mormon threads with quotes and links to anti-Mormon websites.
Originally posted by Outsider:
<strong>They call it the Theory of Evolution for a reason. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Theory of evolution, Newtonian theory, relativity theory, quantum mechanical theory, atomic theory... Geesh, I never get tired of the "It's only a theory" argument as if being a theory means it's equivalent to opinion. Theories are fact finding machines! Just demonstrates a complete lack of understanding about how science works. Besides, evolution is both fact and theory. That evolution happens is an undeniable fact. How, when, where, and by what means it happens is what evolutionary theory is about.
<strong>There's as much evidence for evolution as there is for creationism.</strong>
There's as much evidence for creationism as there is for alien visitations, psychic powers, the holocaust being a hoax, etc... That is, the type of ad hoc evidence which can't be tested, is accepted without question when it's supportive and dismissed automatically when it's not. No self respecting creationist will outline a feasible experiment which would disprove their position. And despite the representations of the creationists, the same is not true with evolution as can be witnessed by the heated debate among scientists studying bird evolution, human evolution, neanderthal relatedness, and any other aspect of evolution. Evolutionary theory is strong because it survived testing, not evaded it.
<strong>Evidence for Evolution would constitute human DNA with left over fish DNA. Or reptile. I've read up on both accounts and the lack of evidence on both sides is nothing short of surprising.</strong>[/QUOTE]
My guess is you've fallen victim to the tactic of selective example employed by the creationists. It's true that evolution predicts that genetic evidence must reflect ancestry in agreement with the fossil record and, as a matter of fact, it does. It's also true that mutation and genetic recombination shuffle, change, and sometimes eliminate genes. What the creationists tend to do is look through the literature (they don't do any actual lab research of their own) and find a gene that doesn't track through a lineage (due to the aforementioned processes- but, they don't mention that) and then completely ignore all the rest of the overwhelming evidence that two species are related. It's the equivalent reasoning to suggesting you didn't copy someone else's paper because one or two words are different.
I really don't have the time or inclination to run through yet another futile argument. Go to <a href="http://www.talkorigins.org."; target="_blank">www.talkorigins.org.</a> They provide good explanations of all the dishonest tactics the creationists have used in the past. I'm sure you'll find refutations of all the creationist "evidence" you've encountered.
One philosophical note (and the biggest trump card creationists have)- if it had been the case that the fossil record, geology, tectonics, astrophysics, paleontology, archeology, molecular biology, and genetics all supported creationism then there would be no need for faith, would there? This is the most powerful aspect of most religions (and most frustrating for rational people) - the idea that a god would purposefully provide no solid, testable evidence of it's existence and that the lack of evidence is somehow proof that we need to believe even more.
<strong>I sit reading this Mormon-bashing idiocy and I can't find a difference between the vomit coming from BRussell and the arguments of intellectualized racists.
It's good that you expose yourself for the prejudiced and bigoted moron you are. Good for you.</strong><hr></blockquote>OK, groverat, I apologize and humbly admit I'm a bigoted moron.
However, LDS is not a race, it's a culture and belief system, and people should be able to evaluate and form judgments about them. [quote]As to my "experience" with Mormons, I was raised in a Mormon household.<hr></blockquote>Unless you're an outsider in an area that is dominated by that culture, I don't think you've had the experience to really know where anti-Mormon prejudice comes from. At least some of it is based on very real actions and attitudes of Mormons towards non-Mormons.
<strong>
As to my "experience" with Mormons, I was raised in a Mormon household. I'm afraid that 99.99% of you have no idea what you're talking about.
[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you a Mormon then? Your phrasing suggests you are not, yourself, a Mormon. If you are or were have you worn the magic underwear?
Also, would people please drop the victim stuff. Political correctness is just as annoying from the right with people crying about religious discrimination at the drop of a hat. How is it that if I started to wear magic underwear I would be considered silly, but once someone justifies it for religious reasons they are beyond criticism?
<strong>I'll stop here and hope this doesn't turn into one of the millions of anti-Mormon threads with quotes and links to anti-Mormon websites.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.netcolony.com/arts/mormons/"; target="_blank">http://www.netcolony.com/arts/mormons/</a>;
This site has information from historical documents and mormon writings and documents. It also contains personal anecdotes and thoughts form the sites author. An interesting read.
And no, I do not hate Mormons, but I get tired of listening to them denying their history. And I will no doubt hear how this link is just a mormon bashing site with no credence at all. Read the books quoted, I bet most if not all the quotes are there. And that is all I will post in this thread as it really holds little interest for me.
Even though I am a liberal rationalistic god denying leftwinger I have nothing against religious people or religion as such. I think the rationalistic view on the world doesn´t provide a sufficient explanation many people even living in very secular societies. And I accept religious explanation as just as good as the rationalistic one.
But when people try to explain religion on rationalistic ground or say that evolution is just a theory no better than creationism they are mistaken. Evolutionism is not any better to explain the world around us than Creationism but if you look for a rational explanation its the one. If you believe god created the world your explanation have to base itself on feelings, tradition, revelation, intuition or something else. If you accept rationalism as the only ground on which we find our truth about the world you lost before the fight began.
I really like one story about the Inuits on Greenland. One day Knud Rasmussen (who was the man who most thoroughly described the Inuit myts and beliefs) was sailing with one of the natives in a canoe. They appoached an huge iceberg and the native told Rasmussen to keep quite so the soul of the iceberg wouldn´t wake up, get mad and fall down on them. That explanation as totally logical to the native because he lived in a animated (animated as in things is alive, not as in Walt Disney) world. Of course what could happen was that the sound waves could trigger the iceberg to fall but from the experience of the local the other explanation was much more logical. And this and other explanations like it gave him rules that would probably secure his survival much better in Greenland than if we were to live there with all our rationality. Our explanation is no more "true" than his. They just function on two different levels. Our explanation is more "true" when evaluated through the glasses of rationalism and his is more true through the glasses of survival.
But thats not to say I will accept every effect of religion. Religion can be the cause of much repression. Just think of India and South Africa during Apartheid. I will fight those consequences to the day I die.
Hope it made just a little bit sense. Its late and I am almost sleeping. Good night.
[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
BRussell:
[quote]However, LDS is not a race, it's a culture and belief system, and people should be able to evaluate and form judgments about them.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, you can evaluate judgements. That's fine with me. (I can also call you on being stupid.)
To make blanket statements about a culture or religion based on your very limited experience and ignorance is not an intelligent or productive way to evaluate things. It's your right to do so, and I don't dispute that at all.
Do I judge all protestants/atheists because so many non-Mormon groups love to deride and bash the religion of my birth? No.
[quote]Unless you're an outsider in an area that is dominated by that culture, I don't think you've had the experience to really know where anti-Mormon prejudice comes from.<hr></blockquote>
I know more than you about it, guaranteed. I've been on both sides of the fence and on the fence.
[quote]At least some of it is based on very real actions and attitudes of Mormons towards non-Mormons.<hr></blockquote>
I have heard very little legitimate complaints about Mormons. And the vast majority of those are from people in Utah, where so many stores shut down on Sundays.
Everything else is just disapproval of their culture, not based on affronts by Mormons.
("I hate the way they disapprove of drinking." v. "Mormons kick me and spit in my face!")
Nordstrodamus:
[quote]If you are or were have you worn the magic underwear?<hr></blockquote>
Is it possible to answer an idiotic question seriously?
[quote]Also, would people please drop the victim stuff. Political correctness is just as annoying from the right with people crying about religious discrimination at the drop of a hat.<hr></blockquote>
Who is the victim?
Where did I claim victim status?
[quote]How is it that if I started to wear magic underwear I would be considered silly, but once someone justifies it for religious reasons they are beyond criticism?<hr></blockquote>
I can criticize your ignorance just as you can criticize Mormons' belief systems.
Don't expect me to fellate you because you want to sling mud at Mormons. Should people stand and cheer when you take it upon yourself to criticize others you know so little about?
NoahJ:
I tried that site but was hit with 6 pop-ups. Find one that isn't so annoying.
I've read plenty of articles pointing out everything from Joe Smith being a pedophile to an alcoholic to a Satan worshipper. I've read about Brigham Young's Pagan rituals and blood sacrifices.
It's not interesting. I don't care if anyone believes in the tenets of the LDS Church and it certainly isn't my place as a non-participant to "defend" such a passive religion.
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If all this talk of creationism is in relation to Mormonism then it's pretty funny how much you people don't know about the religion.
<strong>If you believe that, well... I've got a bridge to sell ya in Brooklyn.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, there is a doctor in Utah (a professor at BYU I believe) who practices these methods. His treatments are well documented, but no one does anything about it because most of the patients _want_ to have this done.
Note that I said "the Mormon Church", not "Mormons". I have absolutely no problems with Mormons as people, I simply disagree with their beliefs, which is a right of mine as a United States citizen. You may disagree with my beliefs, as it is your right as well, even as a Mormon. I intend no offense to anyone.
And please do not insult my intelligence. I am well read in almost every religion that exists/has existed in the history of the world. Test me, if you must.
[ 02-09-2002: Message edited by: btober ]</p>
<strong>NoahJ:
I tried that site but was hit with 6 pop-ups. Find one that isn't so annoying.
I've read plenty of articles pointing out everything from Joe Smith being a pedophile to an alcoholic to a Satan worshipper. I've read about Brigham Young's Pagan rituals and blood sacrifices.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said nohing one way or the other about the religion, merely pointed to a site that was actually rather well studied. Oh, and when i hit the site I got no popups (the joys of OmniWeb!) so sorry, I did not realize it was so annoying.