"I really do not like the Mormon church due to their extremist attempts to "convert" gays."
I would absolutely love for you to show me that the Mormon Church practices in the way you said it did.
"I've read first person accounts as well as met people that have gone through this horrible "program". Some aspects include electric shock therapy and a process where a medication is given to you to make you throw up while viewing gay porn, while some sort of "happy drug" is given to you while viewing the straight variety."
There might be some Mormon guy doing this crap, but I will bet my left testicle it's not the Mormon Church. There is a difference. Hitler carried out the Final Solution, not the Catholic Church.
You are ignorant of the Mormon Church, I don't know what "challenge" I would make to you, but I think your posts thus far have revealed that you don't know very much about this particular subject.
I was host to a person visiting the jubilee pageant in upstate New York. You know it Groverat, the big re-enactment of Book of Mormon, with costumes and an ascending Jesus.
This person was doing all sorts of research and read a biography of Smith written by a Mormon . . .could swear it described him as basically close to a conman.
Anyway, I still think that its an amazing thing: because its a religion with apparently a very strong and 'good' moral compass, that is founded on what is so obviously NOT TRUE!!!
I don't know about other religions (I'm not affiliated with any magor religion. i was baptised catholic but when i got old enough I put an end to that and renounced) and the mormons seem sincere but I don't get the whole Jesus in North America bit. Where is the proof? just a curious question.
Groverat, I'll trust what you say about growing up Mormon, so I have a few questions to ask you:
1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)
2) Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?
3) What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"
4) What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?
5) Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?
6) What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?
Like I said, I'd like YOUR input on this, not the link to the LDS web site or the similar.
Please don't think I've got some underlying motivations, because the truth be told, I'm a member of a religion that could be called a "cousin" to the LDS church. My church, however, is really quite different, so I'm striving to find out all the differences between our two faiths.
<not directed to anyone specific> What is the deal with all the denominations anyway? The Church even? If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross. You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.
1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree Cosmo. I don't think we'll get a solid answer about the magic underwear. More likely we'll keep hearing feigned offense at our ignorance. At least Steve Young was more forthcoming about it. He actually credited it with saving him from injury in a car crash.
<strong>If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree. Even in my denomination, there's a great deal of contention over questions of denominational stances, etc. To me, in all the muck, the main message and purpose is being missed. That's why I have to wonder about some of the Mormon church's ideals and beliefs, and have asked groverat to clarify.
[quote]Originally posted by btober:
<strong>You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.
Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?
Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.
This "magic underwear" you talk about are simply called "garments" by Mormons. I don't see the purpose of asking me if Mormons wear them or not when you know very well that they do.
Do you need to ask me the answer to 2+2 as well? How many sources do you need?
It's a stupid question because:
1) You already know the answers.
2) You phrased it in an insulting way.
I wasn't avoiding the question, it's just a stupid question.
CosmoNut:
[quote]Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did?<hr></blockquote>
Yes.
They are white, it's a symbolic thing, the closest thing to your body is white, which is a holy color, purity and all that jazz.
Mormons still wear garments today, I don't see what the big deal about them is.
It's not a subject I avoid, it's just irritating when people are so bent on trashing a religion they know nothing about.
[quote]Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?<hr></blockquote>
What would be the purpose of a religion if you didn't believe you were the right one?
Mormons believe that all the evil people will be removed, not necessarily other churches. Belief in Christ and acceptance of his gospel are the things that keep you "saved" I think.
[quote]What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"<hr></blockquote>
I know you said no links to LDS websites, but this link has everything I was going to say and I'm too lazy to type it out when I can just link it.
I don't know why a link would be frowned upon, there's nothing sinister going on.
[quote]What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?<hr></blockquote>
You burn in hell forever. Satan gets to play frisbee with your kidneys and sodomizes you with a flaming pitchfork.
Wait, no, that's what John Tesh will get...
Marrying a non-Mormon doesn't carry any "consequences".
The only problem really would be a lack of religious harmony in the household. A faithful Mormon will want to raise his/her children in the Mormon church and having a mother/father sitting back at the house on Sundays drinking some Bud and watch the game will not help that.
If clogging were very important to me, I wouldn't want to marry an anti-clogger.
[quote]Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?<hr></blockquote>
North America somewhere. Perhaps the contiguous US. I think it's one of those "no one will know until Christ comes again" things.
Zion will be the gathering of those faithful to Christ. Christ will supposedly come back and we'll all be happy and dance around and sing. Or something.
[quote]What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?<hr></blockquote>
When the governor of a state essentially declares war on your people it's safe to say it's time to get the hell out of Dodge. Mormons were being lynched and killed, Joseph Smith himself was jailed multiple times and was left unguarded in a cell when a mob came and shot him and his brother to death.
I think it's safe to say that at that point you want to find a place a bit safer.
Someone who asks questions with honest curiosity will get better answers than those who ask insulting questions in an attempt to be clever or cute.
I am not a practicing Mormon, but I have great respect for those who are and so I have little patience for simpletons.
I really hate faiths/religions, call them what you will. They all piss me off big time. GO AWAY.
All religions are to brainwash the followers. You really think that God created the earth in seven days, Jesus came, did a few miracles and was nailed to a cross?, You've been brainwashed. Its so ****ing obviously not true if you have the mental capacity to think it through unbiasedly.
Now, some of the most friendly, genuine, trustworthy people I have met and been friends with have been religious/believers (mainly Christianity). And I have no problem with individuals what so ever.
I believe in all their codes/morals etc, because they make common sense that I believe make the world a better place to live in. But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!
<strong>But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!</strong><hr></blockquote>
MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.
I like my odds better than yours.
Groverat, some follow-up questions for you:
1) As far as the garments go, what's the point? So your underwear is white. Big deal. Are their reprecussions or "quiet dissentions" if you don't wear them?
BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?
2) Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.
So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations? I wonder about this, because in my "LDS cousin" religion, we have nothing of the sort.
3) Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?
I ask this for clarification and to lead into my next question...
4) What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?
5) What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?
6) I understand the political reasons for leaving for Utah, but from what I know about my church and the Mormons, there was a great dissention between members of the 1830 church. This was another motivating factor for the split.
[quote]As far as the garments go, what's the point? So your underwear is white. Big deal. Are their reprecussions or "quiet dissentions" if you don't wear them?<hr></blockquote>
Actually, *my* underwear currently is red with fortune cookies on it.
The point? Excellent question, but I think I already answered it. They are special and important based on the condition that you believe in what the Mormons believe.
A Bible is just a stack of paper to an atheist.
Garments are just white pairs of underwear to non-Mormons.
[quote]BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?<hr></blockquote>
Stupid question.
[quote]Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.<hr></blockquote>
My personal opinion about the PGP?
I think it's just as plausible as any scripture, if not moreso.
The years and years that the Bible has spent under control of corrupted Popes (in the past) make me far more skeptical of its contents than I would be of the contents of the BOM or the PGP.
(By the way, Mormons read and study the Bible, it's a common misconception that Mormons disregard the Bible, it's simply not true.)
[quote]So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations?<hr></blockquote>
Parts of the PGP are translated portions of past books (Abraham, Moses & Matthew) and parts are modern revelation. It's all in that link.
It's a combination of multiple things.
[quote]Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?<hr></blockquote>
You still wouldn't be attending church with her and it would cause conflict over the child. Family is #1 with Mormons, so it's important to them that their religious beliefs are cohesive.
You obviously don't believe in the tenets of the LDS church, so why would you expect a woman to marry someone who doesn't believe in what she does?
[quote]What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?<hr></blockquote>
There are temple services for married couples, but the actual marriage can take place anywhere and not hold any less value.
Non-Mormons are not allowed to marry in the temple.
[quote]What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?<hr></blockquote>
It's a sacred and spiritual space for Mormons. I don't understand the problem with this, either.
[quote]What's your take on what happened?<hr></blockquote>
I don't know much about the Reorganized church, so me attempting to make comments on it would be an exercise in futility.
If you can be more specific then I'll be glad to talk about it, but as it stands I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.
MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.
I like my odds better than yours.
t ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
If I am right, I accept that when I die thats the end.
If I am wrong, that poses a few interesting thoughts. Namely
1) Im condemned to Hell because I find It difficult to accept a story, rather than the facts of science/evolution. DISPITE the fact that I have led my life with 'Christian' morals and respect and honesty to fellow humans.
2) Suppose the Lord Jesus 'really' did die to save my soul. WTF happens to the muslims/sikhs/Jews etc, who passionately believe they are practising the correct faith, and have made many personal sacrifices in the pursuit of a wrong religion.
3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA
The fact is no-one really knows for sure. Not even the Pope. He believes, so much that he really thinks its true. But he won't know until he dies. And if heaven doesn't exist, he wont know anyway because he will be dead, so he lived a lie all his life and never found out. HAHAHAHA.
Consider this. Where would human evolution be today if religion was never invented. Imagine the world population worked together and respected every other person on the planet, because they knew that in the big scale of things, the earth is just another speck of dust amongst a billion other equal specs of dust in the universe. And we should realise that if we blow each other to bits in the name of believing our own version of an unsubstantiated story, then that really is the end. For everyone.
The AZTECS used to worship the rain god, and they really believed this with all their heart. You'dd find it pretty dumb if someone in DownTown NY started a raindance for the rainGod. Infact, if they 'really' believed, you'dd probably lock them up. Why is this so stupid today. Simply Knowledge. I'd bet you that at some time in the future, Someone will really discover the origins/purpose of life, and it will make all you believers seem as stupid as a raindancer in NW today.
Religion is either, a) Convienient way to control a population, or b) trying to find a way to explain what isn't knowledge yet.
Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?
Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, and I probably should have been more clear. I simply meant that there are other guides besides religious administrations who want to take advantage of you. Thanks for pointing this out.
[quote] 3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA <hr></blockquote>
clearly this shows your ignorance of religion: Buddha was a man (Gautama Siddhartha) who came to enlightenment, he was not a god: enlightenment is a state of non-attachment to the things of the world and the world's sufferings: and in Buddhism, all the world is suffering, suffering all the time, except when it has attained the state of enlightenment. Sometimes called Sunyata: a full emptiness and a blissfull letting be. Buddhism is also an understanding of compassion for all beings, compassion born from an understanding that, essentially, all things are suffering and are all part of the same phenomena of the world.
As far as Religion is concerned I think that there is much good in the passion towards ultimate truths: I just think that there are few that are correct in explicit concept, while there is still an intrinsic correctness to the religious impulse itself.
Much Religion is simply the practical mechanisms of morality that have hardened into structures of good vs evil, and guide-books for how to live, also it is about community. But there is the other side of Religion, beyond morality, that is about the profound relationship of oneself to the ultimate source of all being; in fact to all being (not just the source) --this impulse, when taken wholeheartedly, may ask the church bound to let go of that hand for awhile while they search deeper than dogma, deeper than practical morality that has crusted into rules.
About Hell and Christianity: if you are a Christian because you are afraid of going to hell then you are selfish, which is unChristian of you. Wouldn't it be better to be a Christian because you love God.
About forgiveness: good stuff, a profound attitude. But why would we be in need of being forgiven when we were not responcible for coming into the world, as we are -all screwed up and human?
The way I see it, God is supposed to be all powerfull, therefor whatever God wants God gets: God wants to make me be unable to believe in Christianity and thereby go to hell, then that's what God gets, and because I trust in the universe (omniscient God) then I will love even the hell of it, as I would God.
Comments
You said:
"I really do not like the Mormon church due to their extremist attempts to "convert" gays."
I would absolutely love for you to show me that the Mormon Church practices in the way you said it did.
"I've read first person accounts as well as met people that have gone through this horrible "program". Some aspects include electric shock therapy and a process where a medication is given to you to make you throw up while viewing gay porn, while some sort of "happy drug" is given to you while viewing the straight variety."
There might be some Mormon guy doing this crap, but I will bet my left testicle it's not the Mormon Church. There is a difference. Hitler carried out the Final Solution, not the Catholic Church.
You are ignorant of the Mormon Church, I don't know what "challenge" I would make to you, but I think your posts thus far have revealed that you don't know very much about this particular subject.
<strong>quote:
If you are or were have you worn the magic underwear?
Is it possible to answer an idiotic question seriously?
</strong><hr></blockquote>Are you saying that Mormons don't wear special underwear?
He said "magic underwear". It's a stupid question.
Am I supposed to give a serious answer to a question with such idiotic implications?
<strong>btober:
but I will bet my left testicle .</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have nothing to say about the mormons church, but you should never bet your testicle (even if you are sure at 100 %) unless you have three of them
Good advice.
This person was doing all sorts of research and read a biography of Smith written by a Mormon . . .could swear it described him as basically close to a conman.
Anyway, I still think that its an amazing thing: because its a religion with apparently a very strong and 'good' moral compass, that is founded on what is so obviously NOT TRUE!!!
Maybe other religions are the same?!?!?
1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)
2) Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?
3) What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"
4) What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?
5) Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?
6) What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?
Like I said, I'd like YOUR input on this, not the link to the LDS web site or the similar.
Please don't think I've got some underlying motivations, because the truth be told, I'm a member of a religion that could be called a "cousin" to the LDS church. My church, however, is really quite different, so I'm striving to find out all the differences between our two faiths.
<not directed to anyone specific> What is the deal with all the denominations anyway? The Church even? If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross. You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: btober ]</p>
<strong>
1) Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did? (I ask this, because you seemed to be avoiding the issue at all costs earlier, and I'd honestly like to know about this topic)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree Cosmo. I don't think we'll get a solid answer about the magic underwear. More likely we'll keep hearing feigned offense at our ignorance. At least Steve Young was more forthcoming about it. He actually credited it with saving him from injury in a car crash.
<strong>If you are a Christian, the sole "thing" you must believe is that Jesus Christ is your savior and died for your sins on the cross.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree. Even in my denomination, there's a great deal of contention over questions of denominational stances, etc. To me, in all the muck, the main message and purpose is being missed. That's why I have to wonder about some of the Mormon church's ideals and beliefs, and have asked groverat to clarify.
[quote]Originally posted by btober:
<strong>You don't need anyone else to tell this to you - you can read it yourself in a book. It's called the Bible.
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: btober ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?
Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.
This "magic underwear" you talk about are simply called "garments" by Mormons. I don't see the purpose of asking me if Mormons wear them or not when you know very well that they do.
Do you need to ask me the answer to 2+2 as well? How many sources do you need?
It's a stupid question because:
1) You already know the answers.
2) You phrased it in an insulting way.
I wasn't avoiding the question, it's just a stupid question.
CosmoNut:
[quote]Does the Mormon Church promote the use of aforementioned "holy undergarments" or the similar? If so, for what purpose? If not, did it ever, and why was it stopped if it did?<hr></blockquote>
Yes.
They are white, it's a symbolic thing, the closest thing to your body is white, which is a holy color, purity and all that jazz.
Mormons still wear garments today, I don't see what the big deal about them is.
It's not a subject I avoid, it's just irritating when people are so bent on trashing a religion they know nothing about.
[quote]Does the Mormon Church believe that it is the "true" church, and at the day of atonement, all others will be removed from the earth?<hr></blockquote>
What would be the purpose of a religion if you didn't believe you were the right one?
Mormons believe that all the evil people will be removed, not necessarily other churches. Belief in Christ and acceptance of his gospel are the things that keep you "saved" I think.
[quote]What are the origins of the "Pearl of Great Price?"<hr></blockquote>
I know you said no links to LDS websites, but this link has everything I was going to say and I'm too lazy to type it out when I can just link it.
<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/pgp/intrdctr"; target="_blank">Introductory note to the PGP</a>
I don't know why a link would be frowned upon, there's nothing sinister going on.
[quote]What are ALL the implications of a Mormon marrying a non-Mormon?<hr></blockquote>
You burn in hell forever. Satan gets to play frisbee with your kidneys and sodomizes you with a flaming pitchfork.
Wait, no, that's what John Tesh will get...
Marrying a non-Mormon doesn't carry any "consequences".
The only problem really would be a lack of religious harmony in the household. A faithful Mormon will want to raise his/her children in the Mormon church and having a mother/father sitting back at the house on Sundays drinking some Bud and watch the game will not help that.
If clogging were very important to me, I wouldn't want to marry an anti-clogger.
[quote]Where does the Mormon Church believe Zion will exist? What does it believe Zion will be?<hr></blockquote>
North America somewhere. Perhaps the contiguous US. I think it's one of those "no one will know until Christ comes again" things.
Zion will be the gathering of those faithful to Christ. Christ will supposedly come back and we'll all be happy and dance around and sing. Or something.
[quote]What does the Mormon Church say is the reason for leaving the 1830 church to follow Brigham Young to Utah?<hr></blockquote>
When the governor of a state essentially declares war on your people it's safe to say it's time to get the hell out of Dodge. Mormons were being lynched and killed, Joseph Smith himself was jailed multiple times and was left unguarded in a cell when a mob came and shot him and his brother to death.
I think it's safe to say that at that point you want to find a place a bit safer.
Someone who asks questions with honest curiosity will get better answers than those who ask insulting questions in an attempt to be clever or cute.
I am not a practicing Mormon, but I have great respect for those who are and so I have little patience for simpletons.
All religions are to brainwash the followers. You really think that God created the earth in seven days, Jesus came, did a few miracles and was nailed to a cross?, You've been brainwashed. Its so ****ing obviously not true if you have the mental capacity to think it through unbiasedly.
Now, some of the most friendly, genuine, trustworthy people I have met and been friends with have been religious/believers (mainly Christianity). And I have no problem with individuals what so ever.
I believe in all their codes/morals etc, because they make common sense that I believe make the world a better place to live in. But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!
<strong>But WHEN they tell me that the whole creation thing was created by God, and if you believe, you will be spared come judgement day etc, I just have to smile, and think to myself, what a ****ing idiot!</strong><hr></blockquote>
MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.
I like my odds better than yours.
Groverat, some follow-up questions for you:
1) As far as the garments go, what's the point? So your underwear is white. Big deal. Are their reprecussions or "quiet dissentions" if you don't wear them?
BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?
2) Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.
So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations? I wonder about this, because in my "LDS cousin" religion, we have nothing of the sort.
3) Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?
I ask this for clarification and to lead into my next question...
4) What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?
5) What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?
6) I understand the political reasons for leaving for Utah, but from what I know about my church and the Mormons, there was a great dissention between members of the 1830 church. This was another motivating factor for the split.
What's your take on what happened?
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: CosmoNut ]</p>
Actually, *my* underwear currently is red with fortune cookies on it.
The point? Excellent question, but I think I already answered it. They are special and important based on the condition that you believe in what the Mormons believe.
A Bible is just a stack of paper to an atheist.
Garments are just white pairs of underwear to non-Mormons.
[quote]BTW, my underwear is white. Does that mean it's special too?<hr></blockquote>
Stupid question.
[quote]Thanks for the link to the PGP info. I wasn't against links on anything, but I wanted to hear your personal opinions on my questions.<hr></blockquote>
My personal opinion about the PGP?
I think it's just as plausible as any scripture, if not moreso.
The years and years that the Bible has spent under control of corrupted Popes (in the past) make me far more skeptical of its contents than I would be of the contents of the BOM or the PGP.
(By the way, Mormons read and study the Bible, it's a common misconception that Mormons disregard the Bible, it's simply not true.)
[quote]So do I take it the PGP is NOT a canon of scripture then, but more of a book of guidelines, sent down from Joseph Smith Jr. and following administrations?<hr></blockquote>
Parts of the PGP are translated portions of past books (Abraham, Moses & Matthew) and parts are modern revelation. It's all in that link.
It's a combination of multiple things.
[quote]Obviously, a Mormon woman wouldn't want her husband to stay home drinking Buds on Sunday, but what about those (like myself) who have a strong faith, attend church regularly, and have similar beliefs in Jesus Christ that Mormons do -- but aren't Mormon?<hr></blockquote>
You still wouldn't be attending church with her and it would cause conflict over the child. Family is #1 with Mormons, so it's important to them that their religious beliefs are cohesive.
You obviously don't believe in the tenets of the LDS church, so why would you expect a woman to marry someone who doesn't believe in what she does?
[quote]What are the differences between being married in a Mormon Temple and not? Is it true that if a Mormon marries a non-Mormon, they CANNOT be married in a temple?<hr></blockquote>
There are temple services for married couples, but the actual marriage can take place anywhere and not hold any less value.
Non-Mormons are not allowed to marry in the temple.
[quote]What's the deal with the temples anyway? Why can some people enter, and some not enter?<hr></blockquote>
It's a sacred and spiritual space for Mormons. I don't understand the problem with this, either.
[quote]What's your take on what happened?<hr></blockquote>
I don't know much about the Reorganized church, so me attempting to make comments on it would be an exercise in futility.
If you can be more specific then I'll be glad to talk about it, but as it stands I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.
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MarkUK, for your sake, you'd better hope you're right.
If you ARE: We Christians are wrong, and we'll all be fine. Case closed.
If you AREN'T: You're in trouble.
I like my odds better than yours.
t ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
If I am right, I accept that when I die thats the end.
If I am wrong, that poses a few interesting thoughts. Namely
1) Im condemned to Hell because I find It difficult to accept a story, rather than the facts of science/evolution. DISPITE the fact that I have led my life with 'Christian' morals and respect and honesty to fellow humans.
2) Suppose the Lord Jesus 'really' did die to save my soul. WTF happens to the muslims/sikhs/Jews etc, who passionately believe they are practising the correct faith, and have made many personal sacrifices in the pursuit of a wrong religion.
3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA
The fact is no-one really knows for sure. Not even the Pope. He believes, so much that he really thinks its true. But he won't know until he dies. And if heaven doesn't exist, he wont know anyway because he will be dead, so he lived a lie all his life and never found out. HAHAHAHA.
Consider this. Where would human evolution be today if religion was never invented. Imagine the world population worked together and respected every other person on the planet, because they knew that in the big scale of things, the earth is just another speck of dust amongst a billion other equal specs of dust in the universe. And we should realise that if we blow each other to bits in the name of believing our own version of an unsubstantiated story, then that really is the end. For everyone.
The AZTECS used to worship the rain god, and they really believed this with all their heart. You'dd find it pretty dumb if someone in DownTown NY started a raindance for the rainGod. Infact, if they 'really' believed, you'dd probably lock them up. Why is this so stupid today. Simply Knowledge. I'd bet you that at some time in the future, Someone will really discover the origins/purpose of life, and it will make all you believers seem as stupid as a raindancer in NW today.
Religion is either, a) Convienient way to control a population, or b) trying to find a way to explain what isn't knowledge yet.
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Ah, but what about the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Koran, or any other denomination-specific canon of scripture? What says those aren't as legitimate as the Bible?
Because they were written by man? NEWS FLASH: So was the Bible. Ask God, not man, if a book has truth. Man will always disappoint you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, and I probably should have been more clear. I simply meant that there are other guides besides religious administrations who want to take advantage of you. Thanks for pointing this out.
anyway:
[quote] 3) Suppose Buddah created the world. All you Christians are going to hell too. HAHAHAHA <hr></blockquote>
clearly this shows your ignorance of religion: Buddha was a man (Gautama Siddhartha) who came to enlightenment, he was not a god: enlightenment is a state of non-attachment to the things of the world and the world's sufferings: and in Buddhism, all the world is suffering, suffering all the time, except when it has attained the state of enlightenment. Sometimes called Sunyata: a full emptiness and a blissfull letting be. Buddhism is also an understanding of compassion for all beings, compassion born from an understanding that, essentially, all things are suffering and are all part of the same phenomena of the world.
As far as Religion is concerned I think that there is much good in the passion towards ultimate truths: I just think that there are few that are correct in explicit concept, while there is still an intrinsic correctness to the religious impulse itself.
Much Religion is simply the practical mechanisms of morality that have hardened into structures of good vs evil, and guide-books for how to live, also it is about community. But there is the other side of Religion, beyond morality, that is about the profound relationship of oneself to the ultimate source of all being; in fact to all being (not just the source) --this impulse, when taken wholeheartedly, may ask the church bound to let go of that hand for awhile while they search deeper than dogma, deeper than practical morality that has crusted into rules.
About Hell and Christianity: if you are a Christian because you are afraid of going to hell then you are selfish, which is unChristian of you. Wouldn't it be better to be a Christian because you love God.
About forgiveness: good stuff, a profound attitude. But why would we be in need of being forgiven when we were not responcible for coming into the world, as we are -all screwed up and human?
The way I see it, God is supposed to be all powerfull, therefor whatever God wants God gets: God wants to make me be unable to believe in Christianity and thereby go to hell, then that's what God gets, and because I trust in the universe (omniscient God) then I will love even the hell of it, as I would God.