I find it very, very, hard to believe that something like three times the amount of people using iPhones would opt for an N95 instead (or something similar), and to me, that category of devices is almost the only ones that are fair to compare with the iPhone.
North America accounts for 5% of the world's population. Nokia has rockstar status outside of North America. Also, many people are willing to put up with a slightly less good phone if it saves them several hundred dollars. Please don't assume that everyone thinks like yourself.
Quote:
It's a well-konw fact that Nokia floods the world with handsets and dominates the third world in particular with cheap flip phones.
Actually, it's mostly cheap candybar phones that Nokia is known for.
Quote:
It's not surprising that Nokia would ship many times more handsets than any other company, but I personally doubt that many of these are "smartphones" and I suspect that Nokia's "smartphone" numbers are rather inflated as a result.
Nokia's top three smartphone sellers are the N97, 5800 and E71. Do you agree that these three models are smartphones? If not, why not?
Every single Nokia smartphone runs either Symbian or Maemo. Both are smartphone operating systems by any accepted definition.
Quote:
I don't think I'm alone in this suspicion.
Ignorance is a common trait.
EDIT: Fantastic Q4 numbers from the top four. Glad to see everyone doing well.
If Apple releases a CDMA phone they'd move into the number two spot.
And Apple's stock would skyrocket if a Verizon iPhone were ever announced. But looking at the growth it doesn't look like it will be long before Apple takes the #2 spot. RiM is growing just not as much as Apple, but most importantly to these top players is Android getting ground from multiple vendors. This is going to stunt growth, at least a little, across the board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjb00
These numbers kinda blow a hole in the whole "Flash is dead 'cause it's not in the iPhone" argument. Within the year, the mobile-optimized flash player 10.1 will be on 66% of the smartphones (not including the "other" category, as those are unknown).
For starters I don't recall anyone stating that Flash is dead. What was stated is that there is no viable version of Flash for mobile devices when the bellyachers were crying for it in 2007. It's now 2010 and the only platform that has it is Firefox on Maemo (which is turned off due to poor performance) but I don't see people jumping on board for that model just to get Flash in name despite it not offering what people want from Flash.
What does Flash coming "within a year" have to do with the iPhone today and why is it taking so long to come to other platforms. I don't see how Adobe's incompetence is Apple's fault but I'm willing to hear you out. Even after Flash 10.1 comes to these platforms it's going to be fun to see which, if any, can render a Flash site design around a full sized monitor on a 3" screen, how the resources will be stripped, the battery drained, the ability to play a simple video from Vimeo or Hulu, and how games and other sites will be interacted with since they tend to use keyboard commands. it'll be a hoot!
I looked at Nokias 20.8M smartphone number. Because it sounded a bit high to me.
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
Like I just said above.. How many models of smartphones does Nokia have?? 10? 20? How bout RIM?? 5? 6?
Apple has 1..
So yes, the iPhone is most likely the best selling smartphone in the world. However, Apple is not the biggest smartphone manufacturer in the world because they only sell one phone..
Hmmm...
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
We're Number Three! We're Number Three! We're Number Three!
14% down, only 86% left to go!
Apple will never get 100%, as has been shown by the MP3 market; but if the iPod is any indicator, then 75% market share is not unreasonable, which means that a lot of companies will be scrambling for that remnaining 25%;
I looked at Nokias 20.8M smartphone number. Because it sounded a bit high to me.
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
C.
Hence the reason Nokia is crapping itself about RIM and Apple [especially Apple]. With the Android coming in they'll be trying to sue them as well.
David Pogue New York Times says there should be a new definition, maybe "app phones" for phones of iPhone level.
David Pogue: ""Smartphone" is too limited. A smartphone is a cellphone with e-mail - an old BlackBerry, a Blackjack, maybe a Treo. This new category - somewhere between cellphones and laptops, or even beyond them - deserves a name of its own."
Mossberg is of the same opinion. He calls them "super smart phones"
Both say there are only a handful of phones of this level.
A smartphone is any phone you can install third-party native apps too.
Nokia can produce those for a full retail price of close to $100, so you should just get over it.
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
No, storage capacities do not count as a different model.. They are still iPhones, same phone with more or less memory as opposed to RIM for example who has very distinct models, Storm, Curve, Bold and whatever else they offer..
If anything the iPhone had 2 models last year, the 3g and the 3gs, but even that's pushing it to count it as a different model for market-share purposes. It's still just an iPhone.
If the entire smartphone market including RIM isn't crapping itself over Apple's numbers/growth, they're all kidding themselves.
The fact that Apple has a good product with the iPhone its expected their growth is going to be high. When they have been the market as long as Nokia or RIM, if they last that long certainly we will see average growth and not 81%. So I doubt anyone is scared seeing with numbers like this only only logical place Apple can go is down.
That doesn't mean failure it means we certainly aren't going to see this kind of growth forever.
I looked at Nokias 20.8M smartphone number. Because it sounded a bit high to me.
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
C.
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
There's nothing wrong with that.
In a few years time - ALL phones will be smartphones. Kids will open cereal packets and find free Smartphones inside. The kids will say "oh crap, its just another Nokia!" and drop it in the trash.
And that's why Nokia's claim to have sold 20M smartphones is so irrelevant. No one cares.
What matters is the ability to sell handsets that retail (unlocked) for more than $500.
It is the top-end that creates real profits.
Nokia as a mid to low-end handset maker is unassailable. No one will catch them in that space.
But I am not sure anyone wants to. There is just not enough profit in that market. It's a charitable venture. Like making netbooks.
Jody, I have always wondered what it is Nokia sells to get those phenomenal market share records. The N95 strikes me as pretty weak, and I've always assumed the cheaper models are, well, even weaker.
Obviously, Nokia is the world leader in cheap phones and that's not going away, or even threatened, anytime soon.
I think most of us are interested in the overall market share companies have in sophisticated, highly programmable smartphones like iPhone, Android and Palm. My impression was that Nokia's N95 was the only entrant that was even vaguely comparable to those, and in capability terms it is way behind.
How would you compare the cheaper entrants to an iPhone? What models are we talking about?
But most of the Apps aren't made my Apple anyway so then you would need to give credit where actual credit is due i.e, which App sells the most.
TS, this is what happens when you go out of your way to say something negative about Apple ... you run the risk of coming across as a person with little intelligence, or a doofus ... or both.
According to you Apple, who created the tools and infrastructure and the idea of the app store deserves no credit at all but the people who use it to make $$ they would otherwise not be able to do (probably) .... get all the credit. .... You may want to think this one through a bit ... to keep your stupidity from showing.
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
Are you Tekstuds cousin or something? How many iPhone models are available in stores today . That is the question, is it not? I see 3 ... 3G, 16g 3Gs and a 32g 3Gs ... count with me now 1,2,3 .... there, wasn't that easy?
Comments
I find it very, very, hard to believe that something like three times the amount of people using iPhones would opt for an N95 instead (or something similar), and to me, that category of devices is almost the only ones that are fair to compare with the iPhone.
North America accounts for 5% of the world's population. Nokia has rockstar status outside of North America. Also, many people are willing to put up with a slightly less good phone if it saves them several hundred dollars. Please don't assume that everyone thinks like yourself.
It's a well-konw fact that Nokia floods the world with handsets and dominates the third world in particular with cheap flip phones.
Actually, it's mostly cheap candybar phones that Nokia is known for.
It's not surprising that Nokia would ship many times more handsets than any other company, but I personally doubt that many of these are "smartphones" and I suspect that Nokia's "smartphone" numbers are rather inflated as a result.
Nokia's top three smartphone sellers are the N97, 5800 and E71. Do you agree that these three models are smartphones? If not, why not?
Every single Nokia smartphone runs either Symbian or Maemo. Both are smartphone operating systems by any accepted definition.
I don't think I'm alone in this suspicion.
Ignorance is a common trait.
EDIT: Fantastic Q4 numbers from the top four. Glad to see everyone doing well.
If Apple releases a CDMA phone they'd move into the number two spot.
And Apple's stock would skyrocket if a Verizon iPhone were ever announced. But looking at the growth it doesn't look like it will be long before Apple takes the #2 spot. RiM is growing just not as much as Apple, but most importantly to these top players is Android getting ground from multiple vendors. This is going to stunt growth, at least a little, across the board.
These numbers kinda blow a hole in the whole "Flash is dead 'cause it's not in the iPhone" argument. Within the year, the mobile-optimized flash player 10.1 will be on 66% of the smartphones (not including the "other" category, as those are unknown).
For starters I don't recall anyone stating that Flash is dead. What was stated is that there is no viable version of Flash for mobile devices when the bellyachers were crying for it in 2007. It's now 2010 and the only platform that has it is Firefox on Maemo (which is turned off due to poor performance) but I don't see people jumping on board for that model just to get Flash in name despite it not offering what people want from Flash.
What does Flash coming "within a year" have to do with the iPhone today and why is it taking so long to come to other platforms. I don't see how Adobe's incompetence is Apple's fault but I'm willing to hear you out. Even after Flash 10.1 comes to these platforms it's going to be fun to see which, if any, can render a Flash site design around a full sized monitor on a 3" screen, how the resources will be stripped, the battery drained, the ability to play a simple video from Vimeo or Hulu, and how games and other sites will be interacted with since they tend to use keyboard commands. it'll be a hoot!
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
C.
Like I just said above.. How many models of smartphones does Nokia have?? 10? 20? How bout RIM?? 5? 6?
Apple has 1..
So yes, the iPhone is most likely the best selling smartphone in the world. However, Apple is not the biggest smartphone manufacturer in the world because they only sell one phone..
Hmmm...
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
If Apple releases a CDMA phone they'd move into the number two spot.
(Yes i know CDMA is basically US only, but it is still a big market)
Wrong.
We're Number Three! We're Number Three! We're Number Three!
14% down, only 86% left to go!
Apple will never get 100%, as has been shown by the MP3 market; but if the iPod is any indicator, then 75% market share is not unreasonable, which means that a lot of companies will be scrambling for that remnaining 25%;
I looked at Nokias 20.8M smartphone number. Because it sounded a bit high to me.
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
C.
Hence the reason Nokia is crapping itself about RIM and Apple [especially Apple]. With the Android coming in they'll be trying to sue them as well.
Hence the reason Nokia is crapping itself about RIM and Apple [especially Apple]. With the Android coming in they'll be trying to sue them as well.
If the entire smartphone market including RIM isn't crapping itself over Apple's numbers/growth, they're all kidding themselves.
---
I agree.
David Pogue New York Times says there should be a new definition, maybe "app phones" for phones of iPhone level.
David Pogue: ""Smartphone" is too limited. A smartphone is a cellphone with e-mail - an old BlackBerry, a Blackjack, maybe a Treo. This new category - somewhere between cellphones and laptops, or even beyond them - deserves a name of its own."
Mossberg is of the same opinion. He calls them "super smart phones"
Both say there are only a handful of phones of this level.
A smartphone is any phone you can install third-party native apps too.
Nokia can produce those for a full retail price of close to $100, so you should just get over it.
If the entire smartphone market including RIM isn't crapping itself over Apple's numbers/growth, they're all kidding themselves.
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Hmmm...
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
No, storage capacities do not count as a different model.. They are still iPhones, same phone with more or less memory as opposed to RIM for example who has very distinct models, Storm, Curve, Bold and whatever else they offer..
If anything the iPhone had 2 models last year, the 3g and the 3gs, but even that's pushing it to count it as a different model for market-share purposes. It's still just an iPhone.
If the entire smartphone market including RIM isn't crapping itself over Apple's numbers/growth, they're all kidding themselves.
The fact that Apple has a good product with the iPhone its expected their growth is going to be high. When they have been the market as long as Nokia or RIM, if they last that long certainly we will see average growth and not 81%. So I doubt anyone is scared seeing with numbers like this only only logical place Apple can go is down.
That doesn't mean failure it means we certainly aren't going to see this kind of growth forever.
I looked at Nokias 20.8M smartphone number. Because it sounded a bit high to me.
In that quarter Nokia sold.....
4.6 million N-series phones. These are the high-end devices like the N97 which are often compared to the iPhone - and more importantly are priced like the iPhone.
6.1 million E-series - Which are the middle-of-the-road Smartphones.
And then it gets interesting.. The remaining 10.1 million are what they call "numbered Nokia Symbian devices". A good example might be the 5530 XPressMusic. These handsets are often called Musicphones . But because they run the Symbian OS and can be used to access the web, Nokia classes them as Smartphones. (Even though the users rarely use these features).
Once you look at this, it paints a different picture.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
C.
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Apple is doomed!?
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
Which 'smart'phone can you get for $100?!
And what is wrong with that? Nokia's goal is a smartphone for everyone. Not just those who can afford a phone that retails for $620 (the price Apple says they get for every iPhone 3GS). So, as an Indian, when you can get a touch screen smartphone with free GPS navigation for $100 what are you going to do?
There's nothing wrong with that.
In a few years time - ALL phones will be smartphones. Kids will open cereal packets and find free Smartphones inside. The kids will say "oh crap, its just another Nokia!" and drop it in the trash.
And that's why Nokia's claim to have sold 20M smartphones is so irrelevant. No one cares.
What matters is the ability to sell handsets that retail (unlocked) for more than $500.
It is the top-end that creates real profits.
Nokia as a mid to low-end handset maker is unassailable. No one will catch them in that space.
But I am not sure anyone wants to. There is just not enough profit in that market. It's a charitable venture. Like making netbooks.
C.
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
True. I think Apple might have to shift to a 6 month upgrade cycle. Which is really hard to do with only one model (different memory doesn't count).
Obviously, Nokia is the world leader in cheap phones and that's not going away, or even threatened, anytime soon.
I think most of us are interested in the overall market share companies have in sophisticated, highly programmable smartphones like iPhone, Android and Palm. My impression was that Nokia's N95 was the only entrant that was even vaguely comparable to those, and in capability terms it is way behind.
How would you compare the cheaper entrants to an iPhone? What models are we talking about?
D
But most of the Apps aren't made my Apple anyway so then you would need to give credit where actual credit is due i.e, which App sells the most.
TS, this is what happens when you go out of your way to say something negative about Apple ... you run the risk of coming across as a person with little intelligence, or a doofus ... or both.
According to you Apple, who created the tools and infrastructure and the idea of the app store deserves no credit at all but the people who use it to make $$ they would otherwise not be able to do (probably) .... get all the credit. .... You may want to think this one through a bit ... to keep your stupidity from showing.
Hmmm...
Let me see, weren't there 2 gen-1 iPhones (4 & 8 gig), 2 gen-2 iPhones (8 & 16 gigs), and 2 gen-3 iPhones (16 and 32 GB)? I count six models. Maybe I'm even missing one?
Granted, six is a small number, but it's still bigger than 1. Even if we don't count gen-1 anymore, there's still more than one model.
Are you Tekstuds cousin or something? How many iPhone models are available in stores today . That is the question, is it not? I see 3 ... 3G, 16g 3Gs and a 32g 3Gs ... count with me now 1,2,3 .... there, wasn't that easy?