Since we are treated to these articles about the smartphone market on a fairly regular basis, it would really help if you guys would define in the scope of the article what a "smartphone" actually is and the metrics being used by those doing the counting. It seems like the definition IDC uses might not be one that most actual smartphone users agree with.
IDC used the reported numbers from Apple for iPhones (8.7m in last quarter) and from Nokia for converged devices (20.8m in last qtr). According to Nokia's financial release, Nokia has two categories - mobile phones and converged devices, defined as follows:
- mobile phones as "Series 30 and Series 40-powered devices ranging from basic mobile phones focused on voice capability to devices with a number of additional functionalities, such as Internet connectivity, including the services and accessories sold with them." and
- converged devices as "Smartphones and mobile computers, including the services and accessories sold with them." (Does this include Booklet 3G?)
So converged devices is everything else that is not Series 30 and Series 40. It includes N-Series (N95, N97, N97 mini, N900, N86, N85), E-Series (E72, E75, E71, E66, E63, etc), X6, 5230, 5800, 5530, 5730. I'm not sure how Nokia classifies its Booklet 3G mini-laptop.
I think some of the E-series phones shouldn't really be classified as smartphones, but if that keeps Nokia from recognizing the threat, then so be it.
Also, to help with a definition, recognize that all Blackberries are considered smartphones.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
I agree, as a quick look at Nokia's US website shows its smartphones sell without any contract for anywhere from 199 (E63) to 569 (N900). The ASP for Nokia smartphones is 186 EUR or 255 USD.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
But Nokia still gets paid for those "free" phones, or do you want to stop counting the iPhones that come free with contract as well?
The market growth applies to all carrier (Apple, RIM, and others) and not only Nokia. The fact is Nokia is losing market share year-over-year regardless of market growth while Apple and RIM market share is growing.
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE
Oh, and based on the reported 15% market growth, 38% market share today is not bigger than 67% three years ago, which confirm what we already know and that is Nokia growth is slower than the overall market growth. Check your math.
ok, in 2006 there was 80 milion smartphones sold, this was pre iPhone, and they had 48% market share (about 38 million), this new report lists them having a 39% share with 69 million sales. That would put them having greater than 15% growth each year (and yes 38% is bigger than 67%)
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
No one is saying the are selling less units. We are saying the are lagging behind in growth in this segment.
Quote:
ok, in 2006 there was 80 milion smartphones sold, this was pre iPhone, and they had 48% market share (about 38 million), this new report lists them having a 39% share with 69 million sales. That would put them having greater than 15% growth each year (and yes 38% is bigger than 67%)
I miss quoted something and you are building your calculation on that mistake. Nokia had ~49% (not 67% as I wrote earlier) smartphone market share in 2007. In 2009, Nokia market share dropped to 38%. I've got news for you, if your market share is dropping that means your growth is lower than the overall market growth.
We can read the tables. We know that in 2009 Nokia sold 67 million units, RIM 34 million units, and Apple 25 million units. But if you look at the table you will see that Nokia growth for 2008/2009 is 11%, which lower than the overall market growth of 15%. On the other hand, for the same period 2008/2009 RIM and Apple achieved 46% and 81% growth, respectively. Even a blind person can see that Nokia is losing market share to Apple and RIM.
TS, this is what happens when you go out of your way to say something negative about Apple ... you run the risk of coming across as a person with little intelligence, or a doofus ... or both.
According to you Apple, who created the tools and infrastructure and the idea of the app store deserves no credit at all but the people who use it to make $$ they would otherwise not be able to do (probably) .... get all the credit. .... You may want to think this one through a bit ... to keep your stupidity from showing.
Right Einstein-and the people who invented the television get all the credit for all the programming today and so on and so on. And that LED or LCD your viewing this on. Give it up already.
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
Not exactly. In 2007 and 2008, Nokia sold 60.5m smartphones. It didn't go up. Plus from 2007 to 2009, annual flagship N-series sales declined from 37.7m to 18.7m.
We can read the tables. We know that in 2009 Nokia sold 67 million units, RIM 34 million units, and Apple 25 million units. But if you look at the table you will see that Nokia growth for 2008/2009 is 11%, which lower than the overall market growth of 15%. On the other hand, for the same period 2008/2009 RIM and Apple achieved 46% and 81% growth, respectively. Even a blind person can see that Nokia is losing market share to Apple and RIM.
If you sell 1 phone, then sell another, your growth is now 100%
Because as far as marketshare statistics are concerned, they are not broken out by 3g or 3gs, it is broken down simply by Apple iPhone.
No, it is due to the fact that Apple doesn't split out the sales details, if you go by that logic you can combine all the Nokia sales into S60, and Maemo
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Apple's share price didn't drop after their most recent earnings report. On Jan. 26, the first full day of trading after their after-hours Jan. 25 earnings call, Apple's stock gained 1.4% while both the S&P and Nasdaq fell. This was considered a good uptick , considering that blowout results from the likes of Google and Intel failed to move Wall Street in January.
Why do people always assume that it's a zero-sum game? Q4's results show the top three manufacturers added more than 3 million sales compared to Q4 2008. They're all winners.
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Complete and total nonsense.
AAPL share price got wacked following the iPad media event, NOT the Q1 results announcement when the iPhone numbers were disclosed. Generally speaking, attributing stock fluctuations to specific product news is dicey at best. AAPL traditionally sells off in January following results and Macworld, but if you must make a product related cause and effect, it's clear that it was reaction to the iPad, not iPhone.
iPhone results were actually quite good this quarter for Apple. Less than 'whisper' number, but c'est la vie. iPhone 3GS was 6 months old by the end of that quarter, and there were brand new Androids as well as news of the new Google phone. Nevertheless a good iPhone quarter for Apple. They may take heed and save a phone update for the holiday quarter next year to counter any "new" competition that might surface (or not), but iPhone is on track.
You can hate Apple or love Nokia to your heart's content, but your nonsense needs to be called out for what it is.
Not exactly. In 2007 and 2008, Nokia sold 60.5m smartphones. It didn't go up. Plus from 2007 to 2009, annual flagship N-series sales declined from 37.7m to 18.7m.
I think this is the important point.
When people say the word "smartphone" everyone assumes you are talking about a class of product like the iPhone, or Pre or N97.
But Nokia's share of this class of device is declining rapidly. They only sold only 4m N-series units last quarter.
So when Nokia say they have sold 20m smartphones, they bulk-out that number with the
5800 Musicphone and other low-end devices which have a much lower retail value.
Basically as long as it runs Symbian - Nokia call it a smartphone. Which means, of course, that Nokia can continue to grow its "smartphone market-share". But that only gives an illusion of a healthy business.
Basically as long as it runs Symbian - Nokia call it a smartphone. Which means, of course, that Nokia can continue to grow its "smartphone market-share". But that only gives an illusion of a healthy business.
They all have email, they all have internet browsers, they all support 3rd party applications, why are they not smartphones?
Comments
Since we are treated to these articles about the smartphone market on a fairly regular basis, it would really help if you guys would define in the scope of the article what a "smartphone" actually is and the metrics being used by those doing the counting. It seems like the definition IDC uses might not be one that most actual smartphone users agree with.
IDC used the reported numbers from Apple for iPhones (8.7m in last quarter) and from Nokia for converged devices (20.8m in last qtr). According to Nokia's financial release, Nokia has two categories - mobile phones and converged devices, defined as follows:
- mobile phones as "Series 30 and Series 40-powered devices ranging from basic mobile phones focused on voice capability to devices with a number of additional functionalities, such as Internet connectivity, including the services and accessories sold with them." and
- converged devices as "Smartphones and mobile computers, including the services and accessories sold with them." (Does this include Booklet 3G?)
So converged devices is everything else that is not Series 30 and Series 40. It includes N-Series (N95, N97, N97 mini, N900, N86, N85), E-Series (E72, E75, E71, E66, E63, etc), X6, 5230, 5800, 5530, 5730. I'm not sure how Nokia classifies its Booklet 3G mini-laptop.
I think some of the E-series phones shouldn't really be classified as smartphones, but if that keeps Nokia from recognizing the threat, then so be it.
Also, to help with a definition, recognize that all Blackberries are considered smartphones.
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
I agree, as a quick look at Nokia's US website shows its smartphones sell without any contract for anywhere from 199 (E63) to 569 (N900). The ASP for Nokia smartphones is 186 EUR or 255 USD.
Maybe they're a good value?
I think some of the E-series phones shouldn't really be classified as smartphones, but if that keeps Nokia from recognizing the threat, then so be it.
Why is that, they contain all the smartphone functionality, include funcationality the iPhone doesn't
Despite its global dominance. Nokia are selling far fewer high-end phones than Apple. The majority of Nokia's smartphone sales are actually mid and low-end handsets which are typically given away for free in Europe with a mid-priced contract.
But Nokia still gets paid for those "free" phones, or do you want to stop counting the iPhones that come free with contract as well?
I think you can be happy
Yes, why when Apple sells two different phones with two different names do you lump them together? The iPhone 3G and 3GS are different phone models.
The market growth applies to all carrier (Apple, RIM, and others) and not only Nokia. The fact is Nokia is losing market share year-over-year regardless of market growth while Apple and RIM market share is growing.
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
Oh, and based on the reported 15% market growth, 38% market share today is not bigger than 67% three years ago, which confirm what we already know and that is Nokia growth is slower than the overall market growth. Check your math.
ok, in 2006 there was 80 milion smartphones sold, this was pre iPhone, and they had 48% market share (about 38 million), this new report lists them having a 39% share with 69 million sales. That would put them having greater than 15% growth each year (and yes 38% is bigger than 67%)
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
No one is saying the are selling less units. We are saying the are lagging behind in growth in this segment.
ok, in 2006 there was 80 milion smartphones sold, this was pre iPhone, and they had 48% market share (about 38 million), this new report lists them having a 39% share with 69 million sales. That would put them having greater than 15% growth each year (and yes 38% is bigger than 67%)
I miss quoted something and you are building your calculation on that mistake. Nokia had ~49% (not 67% as I wrote earlier) smartphone market share in 2007. In 2009, Nokia market share dropped to 38%. I've got news for you, if your market share is dropping that means your growth is lower than the overall market growth.
We can read the tables. We know that in 2009 Nokia sold 67 million units, RIM 34 million units, and Apple 25 million units. But if you look at the table you will see that Nokia growth for 2008/2009 is 11%, which lower than the overall market growth of 15%. On the other hand, for the same period 2008/2009 RIM and Apple achieved 46% and 81% growth, respectively. Even a blind person can see that Nokia is losing market share to Apple and RIM.
And here is Nokia solution to the problem.
Yes, why when Apple sells two different phones with two different names do you lump them together? The iPhone 3G and 3GS are different phone models.
Because as far as marketshare statistics are concerned, they are not broken out by 3g or 3gs, it is broken down simply by Apple iPhone.
TS, this is what happens when you go out of your way to say something negative about Apple ... you run the risk of coming across as a person with little intelligence, or a doofus ... or both.
According to you Apple, who created the tools and infrastructure and the idea of the app store deserves no credit at all but the people who use it to make $$ they would otherwise not be able to do (probably) .... get all the credit. .... You may want to think this one through a bit ... to keep your stupidity from showing.
Right Einstein-and the people who invented the television get all the credit for all the programming today and so on and so on. And that LED or LCD your viewing this on. Give it up already.
Do you have trouble with percentages? The number of smartphones that Nokia sells has gone up year after year, the market changes each year.
Not exactly. In 2007 and 2008, Nokia sold 60.5m smartphones. It didn't go up. Plus from 2007 to 2009, annual flagship N-series sales declined from 37.7m to 18.7m.
We can read the tables. We know that in 2009 Nokia sold 67 million units, RIM 34 million units, and Apple 25 million units. But if you look at the table you will see that Nokia growth for 2008/2009 is 11%, which lower than the overall market growth of 15%. On the other hand, for the same period 2008/2009 RIM and Apple achieved 46% and 81% growth, respectively. Even a blind person can see that Nokia is losing market share to Apple and RIM.
If you sell 1 phone, then sell another, your growth is now 100%
Because as far as marketshare statistics are concerned, they are not broken out by 3g or 3gs, it is broken down simply by Apple iPhone.
No, it is due to the fact that Apple doesn't split out the sales details, if you go by that logic you can combine all the Nokia sales into S60, and Maemo
If you sell 1 phone, then sell another, your growth is now 100%
Yeah.. Like said before:
Apple is doomed!?
Yeah.. Like said before:
Apple is doomed!?
That's you saying that, not me
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Apple's share price didn't drop after their most recent earnings report. On Jan. 26, the first full day of trading after their after-hours Jan. 25 earnings call, Apple's stock gained 1.4% while both the S&P and Nasdaq fell. This was considered a good uptick , considering that blowout results from the likes of Google and Intel failed to move Wall Street in January.
Apple is the one in trouble now. If you read the last story about this Apple is growing at LESS than the market rate and their Q4 was terrible.
Their share price dropped after their last results because analysts were disappointed with the iPhone sales for Q4.
Complete and total nonsense.
AAPL share price got wacked following the iPad media event, NOT the Q1 results announcement when the iPhone numbers were disclosed. Generally speaking, attributing stock fluctuations to specific product news is dicey at best. AAPL traditionally sells off in January following results and Macworld, but if you must make a product related cause and effect, it's clear that it was reaction to the iPad, not iPhone.
iPhone results were actually quite good this quarter for Apple. Less than 'whisper' number, but c'est la vie. iPhone 3GS was 6 months old by the end of that quarter, and there were brand new Androids as well as news of the new Google phone. Nevertheless a good iPhone quarter for Apple. They may take heed and save a phone update for the holiday quarter next year to counter any "new" competition that might surface (or not), but iPhone is on track.
You can hate Apple or love Nokia to your heart's content, but your nonsense needs to be called out for what it is.
Not exactly. In 2007 and 2008, Nokia sold 60.5m smartphones. It didn't go up. Plus from 2007 to 2009, annual flagship N-series sales declined from 37.7m to 18.7m.
I think this is the important point.
When people say the word "smartphone" everyone assumes you are talking about a class of product like the iPhone, or Pre or N97.
But Nokia's share of this class of device is declining rapidly. They only sold only 4m N-series units last quarter.
So when Nokia say they have sold 20m smartphones, they bulk-out that number with the
5800 Musicphone and other low-end devices which have a much lower retail value.
Basically as long as it runs Symbian - Nokia call it a smartphone. Which means, of course, that Nokia can continue to grow its "smartphone market-share". But that only gives an illusion of a healthy business.
C.
Basically as long as it runs Symbian - Nokia call it a smartphone. Which means, of course, that Nokia can continue to grow its "smartphone market-share". But that only gives an illusion of a healthy business.
They all have email, they all have internet browsers, they all support 3rd party applications, why are they not smartphones?
Apple has delivered the kind of mobile technology people actually enjoy using.
Or, perhaps more correctly, the kind of technology that a minority of people (14% or so) enjoy using...