And no ScottH, I'm not over my head, this article attacks entire nations when it only has valid points regarding isolated individuals, and you herald it as some kind of essential truth.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said over the "top" not "head". There's a difference that maybe is lost in the translation. Over the top means you've gove to far. Over someone's head means they can't understand something. I said over the top.
I don't think the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, "Palestine", et al. are "isolated individuals".
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>You refuse to understand the other side, simply dismissing it as backward and corrupt savages. This will only breed further hatred.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But it's true. Prove to me that the treatment of Saudi woman is not backwards? I know women who have lived there and they hated it. In fact fathers go there to work and leave their families behind because they don't want to subject them to the backward life there.
Prove to me that the government in Pakistan is not corrupt. Musharif is a dictator. Iran is a theocracy of sorts. I mean? COME ON!
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>This thread is so self-indulgent it's sickening. The criticism of foreign governments should result in a little introspective and self-reevaluation, not systematic dismissal because it is the thoughts of "Toads" or "Backwards" or whatever. Coming to hasty conclusions like this article is exactly the way not to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I bet you think Americans need a big dose of "reality". Why is when an American servers some up for the arab/islamic world it somehow, all of a sudden, not the right thing <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
[quote]I realize you are trying to make a point here<hr></blockquote>
then why did you even post? My point was to demonstrate what was being said was absurd. Therefore, I made absurd assertions, so that perhaps it would be clear to you. What part of it did you not understand?
[quote] but let's not be rediculous. And besides, America is changing on these things. How many years ago was it that dragging a "nigger" (quoted to make a point) behind a truck was not considered a criminal act? What vietnamese girls are we speaking of? And as far as school children being shot in school, back off. Before you go too far in your rant <hr></blockquote>
Stop being ridiculous, I specifically chose those examples to demonstrate that grossly generalizing was absurd. You fail to understand that, clearly.
[quote]The people that flew the planes into the WTC are still being backed up by the various governments of the middle east. Not all of them, but it is not hard to see what way the wind is blowing by who was willing to support us in the beginning versus where they stood at the middle and the end. There are still those who say that we deserved it who are in power. They represent their nation whether you like it or not. <hr></blockquote>
They are? IIRC, all Middle-Eastern governments denounced it as acts of barbary, the Saudis, Iranian, Syrians offered their help. Pakistan offered very precious intelligence, man-power and air-space. The only government that supported it was that of Saddam Hussein, and I don't think he's representative of anything.
[quote]For example, many of you got all bent out of shape about President Bush and his "Axis of Evil" statement. Does all of America feel that way. No, but it sure suited you fine to paste it across the entire nation because why? Our LEADER said it.<hr></blockquote>
Please point me to where it was pasted across the American nation? I'm specifically denouncing the fact that one shouldn't generalize the action of individuals to that of an entire population, in case you hadn't understood.
[quote]Who died and made you God? Get down off that high horse before you hurt yourself.<hr></blockquote>
I didn't hear you saying this to ScottH when he proudly proclaimed "Because their culture is backward and corrupt."
Perhaps you should stop that ever so convenient Manichean black and white view of good vs evil.
<strong>Dialog DIALOG Please Jessus (or whoever you worship) let the holy "dialog" save us from all the worlds ills.
If only we had dialog. That hasn't been tried before.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please read more carrefully my post, i said that there is two ingrediants strenght and dialog. In order to make a cake you have to put all the ingredients together or it won't work.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never called them terrorists now did I?
I merely pointed out a tiny amount of hypocriticizm. If you remember the big stink this incident caused between US and Egypt.
They claimed there was a defect in the Boeing aircraft and demanded their own investigation merely on the sole assumption that Islam doesn't allow suicide. The investigation clearly showed the engines were shut down and the pilot fought with the 2nd officer all the way down. Did you read the PDF, or did you just assume that I was being presumptious?
I admit I only read the first couple of pages of the document but your answer was to whether ISLAM is responsible for terror attacks not what Egypt as a state thinks Islam is.
Its so funny that all of you guys who hate the fundametalist muslims so much, also bash away at the french.
Its well known in the muslim world that the strongest voices of reformation, modernisation and democratisation of Islam come from the muslim intellectuals of France... well, well... talk about shitting in your own nest...
<strong>You do however have a problem understanding the fact that Islam has nothing to do whatsoever with flying Boeings in the WTC. You completely fail to recognize the absudity in generalizing the acts of a few crazy men to that of an entire sub-continent.</strong><hr></blockquote>We are talking about cultures here, not individuals (or we should be).
It's a superficial argument to say "you're generalizing - not everyone is like that." If someone says "men are taller than women" you could always argue "No that's not true - some women are taller than some men!" But that's a way of short-circuiting analysis. You have to generalize to draw conclusions and make judgments. Men ARE taller than women.
It's OK to do the same with cultures, and even religions, IMO. Remember, cultural relativism is basically a Western (i.e., European and American) intellectual idea. And I think it went too far. We should be willing to make judgments about cultures.
For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits. Families whose men died from other reasons don't get those benefits. It's an honor and privilege to kill yourself taking out Israelis. So as a result, there is now a backlog of volunteers. They want to have a place of honor for themselves and their families in their culture.
That is a cultural practice that is deserving of condemnation. It doesn't exist anywhere else, AFAIK. There are other cultural practices like this, such as the education system in some of the Muslim cultures, that likewise deserve condemnation.
For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know that Iraq have said they will send a check to the family of palestinians suicide bombers in Israel (but almost never do it) but I have never heard any of your information. A link please
LOL. What, you think they want to be called a sponsor of terroris.... oh wait. Never mind. </strong><hr></blockquote>
We can add that to the list we can prosecute Saddam for: Invading kuwait(cant remember english spelling), Starting a war with Iran (or was it... Oh never mind), Killing his own population AND breaking his promise. He is not just a murderer, terrorist sponsor and a war starter but on top of than he doesn´t even keep his promises
[quote]For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits. Families whose men died from other reasons don't get those benefits. It's an honor and privilege to kill yourself taking out Israelis. So as a result, there is now a backlog of volunteers. They want to have a place of honor for themselves and their families in their culture.<hr></blockquote>
And Palestine is representative of the entire Islamic world how?
Again, those assertions might be correct when applied to the Taliban for example, but they are certainly *not* correct when applied to the entire Muslim world. It is indeed simplistic to dismiss generalization arbitrarily, however in this case, the generalization is utterly abusive.
Nah. I don't think Saddam reads this forum. He prefers Future Hardware... All those rumors on the G5 gives him visions of computer-guided missile faries dancing in his head.
[quote]It's a superficial argument to say "you're generalizing - not everyone is like that." If someone says "men are taller than women" you could always argue "No that's not true - some women are taller than some men!" But that's a way of short-circuiting analysis. You have to generalize to draw conclusions and make judgments. Men ARE taller than women.<hr></blockquote>
Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.
[quote]I don't think Saddam reads this forum. He prefers Future Hardware... All those rumors on the G5 gives him visions of computer-guided missile faries dancing in his head.<hr></blockquote>
heh... you think he finally got around to retrofitting SCUDs with PSX2s?
this is an article in French, stating that Saudi crown prince Abdallah ben Abdel Aziz has proposed normalisation of all Israelo-Arab relations in exchange for removal of Israëli occupation.
It just goes on to show anti-semitism and hatred is far from being a constant of the muslim world.
<strong>Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.</strong><hr></blockquote>My analogy was not perfect, but no analogy is. Yours is better - and BTW, if someone said "Americans watch too much TV," I'd completely agree. I think the average is close to 5 hours/day. Americans are also too fat - about 2/3 are overweight. Americans who deny these things are sticking their heads in the sand about real problems.
Honest self-criticism is good. Scape-goating other cultures as the reason for your problems is bad. Americans shouldn't do it - but Muslim countries shouldn't do it to the US, either, and they have been. And they haven't engaged in the kind of self-criticism that the US and Europe engage in all the time. They're too busy being victims of the US and Israel. Israel - the tiny slice of land, and the US - who gives more aid to Arab countries than to Israel.
And I think it's fair to say those are flaws in Arab culture, without saying it's true of every Muslim or even every Muslim country.
Comments
<strong>
I'm the biased one? ROTFLMFAO.
And no ScottH, I'm not over my head, this article attacks entire nations when it only has valid points regarding isolated individuals, and you herald it as some kind of essential truth.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I said over the "top" not "head". There's a difference that maybe is lost in the translation. Over the top means you've gove to far. Over someone's head means they can't understand something. I said over the top.
I don't think the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, "Palestine", et al. are "isolated individuals".
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>You refuse to understand the other side, simply dismissing it as backward and corrupt savages. This will only breed further hatred.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But it's true. Prove to me that the treatment of Saudi woman is not backwards? I know women who have lived there and they hated it. In fact fathers go there to work and leave their families behind because they don't want to subject them to the backward life there.
Prove to me that the government in Pakistan is not corrupt. Musharif is a dictator. Iran is a theocracy of sorts. I mean? COME ON!
[quote]Originally posted by SYN:
<strong>This thread is so self-indulgent it's sickening. The criticism of foreign governments should result in a little introspective and self-reevaluation, not systematic dismissal because it is the thoughts of "Toads" or "Backwards" or whatever. Coming to hasty conclusions like this article is exactly the way not to go.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I bet you think Americans need a big dose of "reality". Why is when an American servers some up for the arab/islamic world it somehow, all of a sudden, not the right thing <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>
<a href="http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf"; target="_blank">http://www.ntsb.gov/events/EA990/docket/Ex_12A.pdf</a>;
Egypt Air 990. Suicide is against everything Islam stands for too.
Same logic makes christianity terrorist.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
then why did you even post? My point was to demonstrate what was being said was absurd. Therefore, I made absurd assertions, so that perhaps it would be clear to you. What part of it did you not understand?
[quote] but let's not be rediculous. And besides, America is changing on these things. How many years ago was it that dragging a "nigger" (quoted to make a point) behind a truck was not considered a criminal act? What vietnamese girls are we speaking of? And as far as school children being shot in school, back off. Before you go too far in your rant <hr></blockquote>
Stop being ridiculous, I specifically chose those examples to demonstrate that grossly generalizing was absurd. You fail to understand that, clearly.
[quote]The people that flew the planes into the WTC are still being backed up by the various governments of the middle east. Not all of them, but it is not hard to see what way the wind is blowing by who was willing to support us in the beginning versus where they stood at the middle and the end. There are still those who say that we deserved it who are in power. They represent their nation whether you like it or not. <hr></blockquote>
They are? IIRC, all Middle-Eastern governments denounced it as acts of barbary, the Saudis, Iranian, Syrians offered their help. Pakistan offered very precious intelligence, man-power and air-space. The only government that supported it was that of Saddam Hussein, and I don't think he's representative of anything.
[quote]For example, many of you got all bent out of shape about President Bush and his "Axis of Evil" statement. Does all of America feel that way. No, but it sure suited you fine to paste it across the entire nation because why? Our LEADER said it.<hr></blockquote>
Please point me to where it was pasted across the American nation? I'm specifically denouncing the fact that one shouldn't generalize the action of individuals to that of an entire population, in case you hadn't understood.
[quote]Who died and made you God? Get down off that high horse before you hurt yourself.<hr></blockquote>
I didn't hear you saying this to ScottH when he proudly proclaimed "Because their culture is backward and corrupt."
Perhaps you should stop that ever so convenient Manichean black and white view of good vs evil.
<strong>Dialog DIALOG Please Jessus (or whoever you worship) let the holy "dialog" save us from all the worlds ills.
If only we had dialog. That hasn't been tried before.
Please read more carrefully my post, i said that there is two ingrediants strenght and dialog. In order to make a cake you have to put all the ingredients together or it won't work.
i didn't say that only dialog matter.
<strong>
Same logic makes christianity terrorist.
[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never called them terrorists now did I?
I merely pointed out a tiny amount of hypocriticizm. If you remember the big stink this incident caused between US and Egypt.
They claimed there was a defect in the Boeing aircraft and demanded their own investigation merely on the sole assumption that Islam doesn't allow suicide. The investigation clearly showed the engines were shut down and the pilot fought with the 2nd officer all the way down. Did you read the PDF, or did you just assume that I was being presumptious?
Its well known in the muslim world that the strongest voices of reformation, modernisation and democratisation of Islam come from the muslim intellectuals of France... well, well... talk about shitting in your own nest...
<strong>You do however have a problem understanding the fact that Islam has nothing to do whatsoever with flying Boeings in the WTC. You completely fail to recognize the absudity in generalizing the acts of a few crazy men to that of an entire sub-continent.</strong><hr></blockquote>We are talking about cultures here, not individuals (or we should be).
It's a superficial argument to say "you're generalizing - not everyone is like that." If someone says "men are taller than women" you could always argue "No that's not true - some women are taller than some men!" But that's a way of short-circuiting analysis. You have to generalize to draw conclusions and make judgments. Men ARE taller than women.
It's OK to do the same with cultures, and even religions, IMO. Remember, cultural relativism is basically a Western (i.e., European and American) intellectual idea. And I think it went too far. We should be willing to make judgments about cultures.
For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits. Families whose men died from other reasons don't get those benefits. It's an honor and privilege to kill yourself taking out Israelis. So as a result, there is now a backlog of volunteers. They want to have a place of honor for themselves and their families in their culture.
That is a cultural practice that is deserving of condemnation. It doesn't exist anywhere else, AFAIK. There are other cultural practices like this, such as the education system in some of the Muslim cultures, that likewise deserve condemnation.
[quote] For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. <hr></blockquote>
so not true, it's common practice in Palastina, a very small part of the islamic culture
<strong>
For example, it's become common practice in Islamic culture to have "Social Security" for martyrs. They have an entire system of benefits for the families of men who commit suicide while killing Israelis. Their widows and children get free education, health care, etc. Non-martyrs don't get those benefits.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know that Iraq have said they will send a check to the family of palestinians suicide bombers in Israel (but almost never do it) but I have never heard any of your information. A link please
LOL. What, you think they want to be called a sponsor of terroris.... oh wait. Never mind.
<strong>(but almost never do it)
LOL. What, you think they want to be called a sponsor of terroris.... oh wait. Never mind.
We can add that to the list we can prosecute Saddam for: Invading kuwait(cant remember english spelling), Starting a war with Iran (or was it... Oh never mind), Killing his own population AND breaking his promise. He is not just a murderer, terrorist sponsor and a war starter but on top of than he doesn´t even keep his promises
Was that bad taste?
And Palestine is representative of the entire Islamic world how?
Again, those assertions might be correct when applied to the Taliban for example, but they are certainly *not* correct when applied to the entire Muslim world. It is indeed simplistic to dismiss generalization arbitrarily, however in this case, the generalization is utterly abusive.
Nah. I don't think Saddam reads this forum. He prefers Future Hardware... All those rumors on the G5 gives him visions of computer-guided missile faries dancing in his head.
Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.
heh... you think he finally got around to retrofitting SCUDs with PSX2s?
this is an article in French, stating that Saudi crown prince Abdallah ben Abdel Aziz has proposed normalisation of all Israelo-Arab relations in exchange for removal of Israëli occupation.
It just goes on to show anti-semitism and hatred is far from being a constant of the muslim world.
And whaddayouknow. Saudi Arabia, EU AND US united. Perhaps this is something.
<strong>Let's not be ridiculous, shall we? This thread is more akin to saying "Americans lack culture because they watch too much tv" and someone arguing "no, there are Americans like this, just like in any country" than your example. It is not a cultural constant of the Muslim world to sponsor terrorism, nor violate women's rights, nor hate Americans etc. ad nauseanum.</strong><hr></blockquote>My analogy was not perfect, but no analogy is. Yours is better - and BTW, if someone said "Americans watch too much TV," I'd completely agree. I think the average is close to 5 hours/day. Americans are also too fat - about 2/3 are overweight. Americans who deny these things are sticking their heads in the sand about real problems.
Honest self-criticism is good. Scape-goating other cultures as the reason for your problems is bad. Americans shouldn't do it - but Muslim countries shouldn't do it to the US, either, and they have been. And they haven't engaged in the kind of self-criticism that the US and Europe engage in all the time. They're too busy being victims of the US and Israel. Israel - the tiny slice of land, and the US - who gives more aid to Arab countries than to Israel.
And I think it's fair to say those are flaws in Arab culture, without saying it's true of every Muslim or even every Muslim country.