Apple should be careful. The Nokia claim can leave them in a bad position everybody license the GSM tech form Nokia except that decided that GSM is not innovation like "theirs". Anyways out of all the response I see from HTC is interesting that they claim to release the first gesture based smartphone and under those claims basically the iPhone is a copy of a bunch of already existing technologies. Well that's what they say I wonder if they can prove that on court, if they do I see a dark future for all those iB.S. Apple products.
How? Apple acknowledges the Nokia patents on GSM and has offered to pay industry standard licensing rates as the GSM patents are bundled into a formal industry GSM standard. signatories to the GSM standard agreed to license at fair and reasonable rates to all licensee's and Apple offered to pay those same rates.
Nokia said -- No -- we want more $$, and cross licenses on a bunch of your patents too -- all against the terms of the GSM standard body guidelines. So the Nokia case isn't about patents at all because they are all agreed upon, it is strictly a license cost case. Not the least bit like the HTC case at all.
I do, more than you in fact. Software patents were controversial at the start and continue to be, because they are an unnecessary evil that prevents innovation. Too many companies are filing software patents on other people's prior art, and because the patent offices are run in the interest of business, like so many other government entities, and no longer in the public interest, they are issuing patents to non-inventors. It's theft plain and simple. Patents were introduced as a legal concept not to protect business but to encourage innovation, but big business has subverted the process.
So fix the system. But until the system is different you and everyone else (like HTC) are obliged to play by the current rules whether you like them or not.
Apple rival HTC on Thursday issued its first official remarks on a lawsuit filed against it by the iPhone maker, saying it "disagrees" with the claims and is fully prepared to defend its reputation as one of the most innovative companies in the smartphone sector. ...
The only thing interesting here is that HTC still hasn't actually responded to the law suit.
Their first response was (paraphrased) "This is totally new to us we need time to think about our response." It turns out that this was a lie and that they were talking to Apple quite a bit about these issues before the law suit was launched.
Their "first official remarks" (as per this article), are completely devoid of substance except for some essentially irrelevant chest thumping ("We were first with this, that and that other thing.") Then at the end of the statement they repeat again how they are still thinking about how to actually respond substantively. This "response" is so obvioulsy one of those "... well it's been a long time, and we have to say something" kind of press releases.
To me this says:
- They haven't got a good reply to the substantive claims.
- They are still (weeks later!) running around like idiots trying to think what to do.
- They are probably already in talks with partners (Microsoft, Google), about what to do.
I would guess that Microsoft has abandoned them, and that Google is pushing them to carry the can here, but they are hesitant to do this given the inherent weakness of their defence.
Remember: China and Taiwan companies know as much about patent law and IP infringement as the average American knows about "socialism."
Yes, it looks like Google is the bully. Apple tried to do everything it could to avoid the present situation and to avoid suing Google. Jobs announced at his MWSF 2007 keynote (a consumer event) that the iPhone is wildly patented. Apple requested several of its patent applications to be published by the US PTO significantly earlier than the agency's standard 18 month quiet period. Apple filed a major multitouch patent application in May 2006, that Google has known about for years, not to mention many other relevant patents applied for and/or awarded that Google knows about. Apple keeps using Google services on the Mac and on the iPhone. The two companies hold multiple discussions about where Android devices are going and how Apple intends to defend its IP as it has indicated all along. Google goes there anyway, rolling out multitouch in December 2009. Apple is awarded the aforementioned multitouch patent on February 16, 2010. Exactly two weeks later, rather than directly sue Google--a company Apple may actually prefer to continue doing business with--Apple fires a warning shot by suing HTC.
It's always possible that with Palm's many ex-Apple employees they might have something over Apple that makes it a legal stalemate.
Plus, if the point is to make money then suing Palm ? who has a market cap under $1 Billion and lost $150 Million last quarter, the holiday quarter, with seemingly nothing new in the pipeline ? would be pretty pointless.
Yes, it looks like Google is the bully. Apple tried to do everything it could to avoid the present situation and to avoid suing Google. Jobs announced at his MWSF 2007 keynote (a consumer event) that the iPhone is wildly patented. Apple requested several of its patent applications to be published by the US PTO significantly earlier than the agency's standard 18 month quiet period. Apple filed a major multitouch patent application in May 2006, that Google has known about for years, not to mention many other relevant patents applied for and/or awarded that Google knows about. Apple keeps using Google services on the Mac and on the iPhone. The two companies hold multiple discussions about where Android devices are going and how Apple intends to defend its IP as it has indicated all along. Google goes there anyway, rolling out multitouch in December 2009. Apple is awarded the aforementioned multitouch patent on February 16, 2010. Exactly two weeks later, rather than directly sue Google--a company Apple may actually prefer to continue doing business with--Apple fires a warning shot by suing HTC.
I'm not seeing how Apple could just pick and choose between suing one company for the HW or another for the SW for the same patent. Isn't the lawsuit specifically for HW aspects of the multi-touch interface itself?
I'm also not seeing how a lawsuit in one area of business predicates an inability to do business in another. It's common for companies to be working together in other area and competing in another. It's a typical day at the office and Google being nearly as big as Apple and HTC being much smaller means nothing in the grand scheme of things; you either have a case or you don't.
Wow, I wonder if the multi-touch implemented there is really that bad, or if Flash is pinging the CPU so much that it is that jerky. Either way, really awful scrolling and pinching compared to the iPhone.
I'm not seeing how Apple could just pick and choose between suing one company for the HW or another for the SW for the same patent. Isn't the lawsuit specifically for HW aspects of the multi-touch interface itself?
I don't know. I haven't looked at the text of the lawsuit. Only read some cursory accounts of it, written by people who seem to know even less about the law than I.
In any case, a patent contains one or more individual "claims". In any given patent, some claims could be for hardware and others could be for software while still others might be for both HW and SW.
Quote:
I'm also not seeing how a lawsuit in one area of business predicates an inability to do business in another. It's common for companies to be working together in other area and competing in another. It's a typical day at the office and Google being nearly as big as Apple and HTC being much smaller means nothing in the grand scheme of things; you either have a case or you don't.
Of course, Apple doesn't have to sue anybody (although the board of directors would likely be sued by shareholders if the company didn't do something to protect its intellectual property), but if Apple so chooses, it can sue anyone (say, HTC) and omit anyone (say, Google). I believe I suggested Apple would still want to do business with Google, assuming of course Google wants to continue doing business with Apple. One way to ensure their business relationship continues is for Apple to hold off on suing Google until the HTC situation settles out. This seems smart to me. Apple cares about Google but could care less about HTC.
Of course, this is all speculation; Apple's lawyers might just want a bit more time to put together their case against Google before filing a separate lawsuit or adding them to the existing HTC suit. If you're suggesting Apple and Google could continue doing business even if Apple was suing Google directly, you might be right, but why risk it?
Apple cares about Google but could care less about HTC.
That is true. I don't think Apple has ever needed anything from HTC, unlike Samsung for NAND, Google for SW and services, and Qualcomm for licenses, for example.
... One way to ensure their business relationship continues is for Apple to hold off on suing Google until the HTC situation settles out. ... Apple's lawyers might just want a bit more time to put together their case against Google before filing a separate lawsuit or adding them to the existing HTC suit. ...
I am also not a big patent expert nor a lawyer, but I don't think they can, (or are going to) sue Google at all.
If patents are based on particular implementations of technology (and they are), it seems logical that they can only sue the people that implement Apple's IP. While Android is most certainly the central nugget of the infringement, it's an open source OS produced by Google for free. Technically, Google is neither implementing anything, nor selling anything here. It's HTC that's taking this OS and putting it on hardware and selling it.
It seems to me that it would be a lot harder to make the case that Google's OS had infringed multi-touch given it's open source nature. As long as none of those involved in the coding are also involved with hardware, it's hard to make a linkage between the two. With HTC on the other hand, you have a large-ish company that makes most of the Android handsets out there who has decided to use IP that is in Android, but that is not necessarily free of patent liabilities.
This is the same as Microsoft's many threats and lawsuits against open source in general. You don't sue the 1,000 faceless geeks who make Linux, you sue the corporation (which is your direct market competition anyway), that is selling the Linux boxes or using the Linux implementation that's in doubt. It's a much stronger case in general, and it also works as a simple threat to get them to stop using a "questionable" or possibly patent infringing solution.
Not only do they have far more leverage with this case against HTC than they would have against Google, if they win it, then it doesn't matter what Google thinks at all because no one can use those parts of Android deemed to be infringing anyway. I don't see them suing Google at all, and I see Google's strategy of being one-step removed from actually selling product as a very smart move on their part.
I do, more than you in fact. Software patents were controversial at the start and continue to be, because they are an unnecessary evil that prevents innovation. Too many companies are filing software patents on other people's prior art, and because the patent offices are run in the interest of business, like so many other government entities, and no longer in the public interest, they are issuing patents to non-inventors. It's theft plain and simple. Patents were introduced as a legal concept not to protect business but to encourage innovation, but big business has subverted the process.
And if HTH can prove the existence of prior art that precedes some of the patents Apple is accusing them of violating, then this lawsuit provides the opportunity to partially or wholly invalidate some of them.
And if HTH can prove the existence of prior art that precedes some of the patents Apple is accusing them of violating, then this lawsuit provides the opportunity to partially or wholly invalidate some of them.
That depends. For example, if the prior art was not public and was known only to HTC, then HTC can make use of the prior art, while Apple's patent remains valid and enforceable against anyone else.
This whole situation is ugly. I'm someone who's trying to switch over to the Mac from PCs, and I am surprised that Apple is being so public about this lawsuit. It looks like bullying to me. Apple is looking more and more like Microsoft. I'm not the biggest fan of Google but Apple needs to embrace the principle of competition and just try to beat up the competitors off-field.
Can you have a patent lawsuit in private?
I don't think Apple has said anything about the lawsuit since it's filing. So I have no clue what you mean by "being so public".
You have a very interesting concept of competition. Is cheating allowed in your version?
Anyways out of all the response I see from HTC is interesting that they claim to release the first gesture based smartphone and under those claims basically the iPhone is a copy of a bunch of already existing technologies. Well that's what they say I wonder if they can prove that on court, if they do I see a dark future for all those iB.S. Apple products.
I wonder if all cars sold today are basically a copy of the first one ever invented.
Personally, I think the long delay in any real response is because HTC is looking for ways to "climb down" from their position and give in. HTC is a very money-driven concern, they aren't in it to help people or for any holy cause like Apple is.
I predict they will cave once they are assured that no one else will be able to make these things either. They want to be market leader in alternatives to the iPhone not fight some holy IP battle that (let's face it), they don't even believe in. As long as they are not alone in the boat, HTC will most likely cave to whatever the lawyers agree at the end of the day. They won't spend their relatively small heap of profits and endanger their future market dominance trying to defeat Apple because they think it's "right" or some such nonsense. If they cared about this stuff they wouldn't be running the biggest clone manufacturing concern on the planet, would they?
Lawsuits such as these are never filed in attempt to right the stated wrong, there is always an ulterior motive.
In this case, I imagine that Apple is suing in order to keep it's competitive advantage in the smartphone market.
Strong word there - "never". Especially with no qualifiers.
A few years ago, Apple sued Burst.com because Burst.com would've soon claimed that Apple was violating it's video patent. Can you point me to the ulterior motive?
Kodak just sued Apple. Surely, it wasn't because Kodak was trying to maintain "competitive advantage." Maybe they just thought they righting a wrong?
Have you heard of Occam's razor? You might want to consider it. It's boring but it makes more sense than the sensationalistic, dramatic journalism that seems to have filled your head.
Comments
Apple should be careful. The Nokia claim can leave them in a bad position everybody license the GSM tech form Nokia except that decided that GSM is not innovation like "theirs". Anyways out of all the response I see from HTC is interesting that they claim to release the first gesture based smartphone and under those claims basically the iPhone is a copy of a bunch of already existing technologies. Well that's what they say I wonder if they can prove that on court, if they do I see a dark future for all those iB.S. Apple products.
How? Apple acknowledges the Nokia patents on GSM and has offered to pay industry standard licensing rates as the GSM patents are bundled into a formal industry GSM standard. signatories to the GSM standard agreed to license at fair and reasonable rates to all licensee's and Apple offered to pay those same rates.
Nokia said -- No -- we want more $$, and cross licenses on a bunch of your patents too -- all against the terms of the GSM standard body guidelines. So the Nokia case isn't about patents at all because they are all agreed upon, it is strictly a license cost case. Not the least bit like the HTC case at all.
I do, more than you in fact. Software patents were controversial at the start and continue to be, because they are an unnecessary evil that prevents innovation. Too many companies are filing software patents on other people's prior art, and because the patent offices are run in the interest of business, like so many other government entities, and no longer in the public interest, they are issuing patents to non-inventors. It's theft plain and simple. Patents were introduced as a legal concept not to protect business but to encourage innovation, but big business has subverted the process.
So fix the system. But until the system is different you and everyone else (like HTC) are obliged to play by the current rules whether you like them or not.
Apple rival HTC on Thursday issued its first official remarks on a lawsuit filed against it by the iPhone maker, saying it "disagrees" with the claims and is fully prepared to defend its reputation as one of the most innovative companies in the smartphone sector. ...
The only thing interesting here is that HTC still hasn't actually responded to the law suit.
Their first response was (paraphrased) "This is totally new to us we need time to think about our response." It turns out that this was a lie and that they were talking to Apple quite a bit about these issues before the law suit was launched.
Their "first official remarks" (as per this article), are completely devoid of substance except for some essentially irrelevant chest thumping ("We were first with this, that and that other thing.") Then at the end of the statement they repeat again how they are still thinking about how to actually respond substantively. This "response" is so obvioulsy one of those "... well it's been a long time, and we have to say something" kind of press releases.
To me this says:
- They haven't got a good reply to the substantive claims.
- They are still (weeks later!) running around like idiots trying to think what to do.
- They are probably already in talks with partners (Microsoft, Google), about what to do.
I would guess that Microsoft has abandoned them, and that Google is pushing them to carry the can here, but they are hesitant to do this given the inherent weakness of their defence.
Remember: China and Taiwan companies know as much about patent law and IP infringement as the average American knows about "socialism."
(i.e. - not much beyond the word itself).
- They are still (weeks later!) running around like idiots trying to think what to do.
...
Remember: China and Taiwan companies know as much about patent law and IP infringement as the average American knows about "socialism."
(i.e. - not much beyond the word itself).
Bye Bye HTC!!! Steve is going to kill them!!!!
Serious now you guys what is this stuff??!!
It looks like bullying to me.
Yes, it looks like Google is the bully. Apple tried to do everything it could to avoid the present situation and to avoid suing Google. Jobs announced at his MWSF 2007 keynote (a consumer event) that the iPhone is wildly patented. Apple requested several of its patent applications to be published by the US PTO significantly earlier than the agency's standard 18 month quiet period. Apple filed a major multitouch patent application in May 2006, that Google has known about for years, not to mention many other relevant patents applied for and/or awarded that Google knows about. Apple keeps using Google services on the Mac and on the iPhone. The two companies hold multiple discussions about where Android devices are going and how Apple intends to defend its IP as it has indicated all along. Google goes there anyway, rolling out multitouch in December 2009. Apple is awarded the aforementioned multitouch patent on February 16, 2010. Exactly two weeks later, rather than directly sue Google--a company Apple may actually prefer to continue doing business with--Apple fires a warning shot by suing HTC.
Microsoft don't make phones.
HTC does and Apple feels they are violating their patents.
Maybe they don't feel the same way about Palm.
Some advice for HTC.
http://bit.ly/2Ou6fd
It's always possible that with Palm's many ex-Apple employees they might have something over Apple that makes it a legal stalemate.
Plus, if the point is to make money then suing Palm ? who has a market cap under $1 Billion and lost $150 Million last quarter, the holiday quarter, with seemingly nothing new in the pipeline ? would be pretty pointless.
Yes, it looks like Google is the bully. Apple tried to do everything it could to avoid the present situation and to avoid suing Google. Jobs announced at his MWSF 2007 keynote (a consumer event) that the iPhone is wildly patented. Apple requested several of its patent applications to be published by the US PTO significantly earlier than the agency's standard 18 month quiet period. Apple filed a major multitouch patent application in May 2006, that Google has known about for years, not to mention many other relevant patents applied for and/or awarded that Google knows about. Apple keeps using Google services on the Mac and on the iPhone. The two companies hold multiple discussions about where Android devices are going and how Apple intends to defend its IP as it has indicated all along. Google goes there anyway, rolling out multitouch in December 2009. Apple is awarded the aforementioned multitouch patent on February 16, 2010. Exactly two weeks later, rather than directly sue Google--a company Apple may actually prefer to continue doing business with--Apple fires a warning shot by suing HTC.
I'm not seeing how Apple could just pick and choose between suing one company for the HW or another for the SW for the same patent. Isn't the lawsuit specifically for HW aspects of the multi-touch interface itself?
I'm also not seeing how a lawsuit in one area of business predicates an inability to do business in another. It's common for companies to be working together in other area and competing in another. It's a typical day at the office and Google being nearly as big as Apple and HTC being much smaller means nothing in the grand scheme of things; you either have a case or you don't.
Look at the crappie device from HTC, you can see why Apple is suing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZLOndllpUM
Wow, I wonder if the multi-touch implemented there is really that bad, or if Flash is pinging the CPU so much that it is that jerky. Either way, really awful scrolling and pinching compared to the iPhone.
I'm not seeing how Apple could just pick and choose between suing one company for the HW or another for the SW for the same patent. Isn't the lawsuit specifically for HW aspects of the multi-touch interface itself?
I don't know. I haven't looked at the text of the lawsuit. Only read some cursory accounts of it, written by people who seem to know even less about the law than I.
In any case, a patent contains one or more individual "claims". In any given patent, some claims could be for hardware and others could be for software while still others might be for both HW and SW.
I'm also not seeing how a lawsuit in one area of business predicates an inability to do business in another. It's common for companies to be working together in other area and competing in another. It's a typical day at the office and Google being nearly as big as Apple and HTC being much smaller means nothing in the grand scheme of things; you either have a case or you don't.
Of course, Apple doesn't have to sue anybody (although the board of directors would likely be sued by shareholders if the company didn't do something to protect its intellectual property), but if Apple so chooses, it can sue anyone (say, HTC) and omit anyone (say, Google). I believe I suggested Apple would still want to do business with Google, assuming of course Google wants to continue doing business with Apple. One way to ensure their business relationship continues is for Apple to hold off on suing Google until the HTC situation settles out. This seems smart to me. Apple cares about Google but could care less about HTC.
Of course, this is all speculation; Apple's lawyers might just want a bit more time to put together their case against Google before filing a separate lawsuit or adding them to the existing HTC suit. If you're suggesting Apple and Google could continue doing business even if Apple was suing Google directly, you might be right, but why risk it?
Apple cares about Google but could care less about HTC.
That is true. I don't think Apple has ever needed anything from HTC, unlike Samsung for NAND, Google for SW and services, and Qualcomm for licenses, for example.
... One way to ensure their business relationship continues is for Apple to hold off on suing Google until the HTC situation settles out. ... Apple's lawyers might just want a bit more time to put together their case against Google before filing a separate lawsuit or adding them to the existing HTC suit. ...
I am also not a big patent expert nor a lawyer, but I don't think they can, (or are going to) sue Google at all.
If patents are based on particular implementations of technology (and they are), it seems logical that they can only sue the people that implement Apple's IP. While Android is most certainly the central nugget of the infringement, it's an open source OS produced by Google for free. Technically, Google is neither implementing anything, nor selling anything here. It's HTC that's taking this OS and putting it on hardware and selling it.
It seems to me that it would be a lot harder to make the case that Google's OS had infringed multi-touch given it's open source nature. As long as none of those involved in the coding are also involved with hardware, it's hard to make a linkage between the two. With HTC on the other hand, you have a large-ish company that makes most of the Android handsets out there who has decided to use IP that is in Android, but that is not necessarily free of patent liabilities.
This is the same as Microsoft's many threats and lawsuits against open source in general. You don't sue the 1,000 faceless geeks who make Linux, you sue the corporation (which is your direct market competition anyway), that is selling the Linux boxes or using the Linux implementation that's in doubt. It's a much stronger case in general, and it also works as a simple threat to get them to stop using a "questionable" or possibly patent infringing solution.
Not only do they have far more leverage with this case against HTC than they would have against Google, if they win it, then it doesn't matter what Google thinks at all because no one can use those parts of Android deemed to be infringing anyway. I don't see them suing Google at all, and I see Google's strategy of being one-step removed from actually selling product as a very smart move on their part.
I do, more than you in fact. Software patents were controversial at the start and continue to be, because they are an unnecessary evil that prevents innovation. Too many companies are filing software patents on other people's prior art, and because the patent offices are run in the interest of business, like so many other government entities, and no longer in the public interest, they are issuing patents to non-inventors. It's theft plain and simple. Patents were introduced as a legal concept not to protect business but to encourage innovation, but big business has subverted the process.
And if HTH can prove the existence of prior art that precedes some of the patents Apple is accusing them of violating, then this lawsuit provides the opportunity to partially or wholly invalidate some of them.
And if HTH can prove the existence of prior art that precedes some of the patents Apple is accusing them of violating, then this lawsuit provides the opportunity to partially or wholly invalidate some of them.
That depends. For example, if the prior art was not public and was known only to HTC, then HTC can make use of the prior art, while Apple's patent remains valid and enforceable against anyone else.
This whole situation is ugly. I'm someone who's trying to switch over to the Mac from PCs, and I am surprised that Apple is being so public about this lawsuit. It looks like bullying to me. Apple is looking more and more like Microsoft. I'm not the biggest fan of Google but Apple needs to embrace the principle of competition and just try to beat up the competitors off-field.
Can you have a patent lawsuit in private?
I don't think Apple has said anything about the lawsuit since it's filing. So I have no clue what you mean by "being so public".
You have a very interesting concept of competition. Is cheating allowed in your version?
Anyways out of all the response I see from HTC is interesting that they claim to release the first gesture based smartphone and under those claims basically the iPhone is a copy of a bunch of already existing technologies. Well that's what they say I wonder if they can prove that on court, if they do I see a dark future for all those iB.S. Apple products.
I wonder if all cars sold today are basically a copy of the first one ever invented.
Yeah, I guess so.
Apple is like the rich man who lives at the top of a hill.
But instead of being noble and kind, he keeps sending his attack dogs to maul anyone who tries to come up to greet him.
Ah, that's what you think competition is....
Bye Bye HTC!!! Steve is going to kill them!!!!
Personally, I think the long delay in any real response is because HTC is looking for ways to "climb down" from their position and give in. HTC is a very money-driven concern, they aren't in it to help people or for any holy cause like Apple is.
I predict they will cave once they are assured that no one else will be able to make these things either. They want to be market leader in alternatives to the iPhone not fight some holy IP battle that (let's face it), they don't even believe in. As long as they are not alone in the boat, HTC will most likely cave to whatever the lawyers agree at the end of the day. They won't spend their relatively small heap of profits and endanger their future market dominance trying to defeat Apple because they think it's "right" or some such nonsense. If they cared about this stuff they wouldn't be running the biggest clone manufacturing concern on the planet, would they?
HTC just isn't an ideologically based company.
Google is, but so far they aren't in this fight.
Lawsuits such as these are never filed in attempt to right the stated wrong, there is always an ulterior motive.
In this case, I imagine that Apple is suing in order to keep it's competitive advantage in the smartphone market.
Strong word there - "never". Especially with no qualifiers.
A few years ago, Apple sued Burst.com because Burst.com would've soon claimed that Apple was violating it's video patent. Can you point me to the ulterior motive?
Kodak just sued Apple. Surely, it wasn't because Kodak was trying to maintain "competitive advantage." Maybe they just thought they righting a wrong?
Have you heard of Occam's razor? You might want to consider it. It's boring but it makes more sense than the sensationalistic, dramatic journalism that seems to have filled your head.