No biggie - I'm not a lawyer, but I'm surrounded by them in my work.
And you think EULAs suck?
Try getting a brief smack-down after violating existing specific (and arcane) federal regulations that detail how data is managed for anything being staged from terrestrial to orbit. A group I worked with caused the (chief) corporate attorney to run full gait down the hall to scream at us after we tapped into the uplink for a real-time tv-programming guide to mirror on the website.
(Went something like: hey! let's mirror the set-top box feed and create real-time programming updates for the users! - ya, that's simple - we'll just cache that stream over here ... {sounds of doppler affected yelling and several yards of running footfalls later we found out that's frowned-on})
I was a Genius for two years, and this subject came up often. There's NOTHING IN THE APPLE WARRANTY THAT IS VOIDED BY JAILBREAKING, even if you walk up to a Genius bar with an obviously hacked phone. There's also NOTHING IN APPLE RETAIL STORE POLICY THAT CAN DENY SERVICE FOR A JAILBROKEN PHONE.
Sorry for the caps, but so many people seem to repeat this fallacy, AI's editors included, and it annoys the hell out of me. There are two relevant pieces of legalese that could refer to jailbreaking; these are in the software license agreement and in the hardware warranty.
The first covers permitted uses and restrictions, namely 2(c) where you are not to modify the software, stating that it may be illegal and that you are violating Apple's copyrights. There's an explicit exemption in the DMCA that provides for legal jailbreaking to allow interoperability between different cellular networks (it's this loophole that Apple has been lobbying to try to close). It makes NO claims as to warranty status, as the software is provided without warranty.
The second, hardware warranty covers the hardware ONLY and that I think where most of this confusion stems from. In it, it states that the warranty doesn't apply to a set of situations, including, "[damage] to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple." As you are modifying the software, not the hardware, this DOES NOT APPLY.
For Apple, if there's a hardware issue with the device that can be easily determined to be non-software related (cracked case, broken switch cap, etc.), the phone is swapped, and the customer pays for replacement depending on if the device is still covered under the original or extended AppleCare warranty coverage period. If the first case doesn't apply, the device is restored w/the latest publicly available restore image (which would wipe the jailbreak). If the original issue persists after the restore, the phone is swapped. If not, the issue is determined to be software related and the phone returned to the customer.
The alternative App store only available on Jailbroken iPhones that allows for the stealing of money from iPhone developers through the availability of cracked and pirated Apps.
This will bring out all the high and mighty BULLSHIT, that no-one EVER jailbreaks their iPhones to get pirated Apps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmf2
You are wrong and your attitude betrays you in your words.
First of all, a person is not a criminal if they break any law (not all laws are criminal). Secondly, even if it was a criminal offense, no one would call people committing such minor acts criminals.
Thirdly, the other posters definitions are spot on. It is a big deal to treat a civil case as if it was a criminal one. The term quasi-criminal is not a term to be thrown around lightly.
Lastly, like I said, your attitude betrays you. You came up with your own definition for quasi-criminal. You claim that it means "sort of a criminal", but you also say that jailbreakers are lucky to be called that. This means that you believe people who jailbreak their phones to be practically criminals or full fledged criminals.
I was a Genius for two years, and this subject came up often. There's NOTHING IN THE APPLE WARRANTY THAT IS VOIDED BY JAILBREAKING, even if you walk up to a Genius bar with an obviously hacked phone. There's also NOTHING IN APPLE RETAIL STORE POLICY THAT CAN DENY SERVICE FOR A JAILBROKEN PHONE.
Sorry for the caps, but so many people seem to repeat this fallacy, AI's editors included, and it annoys the hell out of me. There are two relevant pieces of legalese that could refer to jailbreaking; these are in the software license agreement and in the hardware warranty.
The first covers permitted uses and restrictions, namely 2(c) where you are not to modify the software, stating that it may be illegal and that you are violating Apple's copyrights. There's an explicit exemption in the DMCA that provides for legal jailbreaking to allow interoperability between different cellular networks (it's this loophole that Apple has been lobbying to try to close). It makes NO claims as to warranty status, as the software is provided without warranty.
The second, hardware warranty covers the hardware ONLY and that I think where most of this confusion stems from. In it, it states that the warranty doesn't apply to a set of situations, including, "[damage] to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple." As you are modifying the software, not the hardware, this DOES NOT APPLY.
For Apple, if there's a hardware issue with the device that can be easily determined to be non-software related (cracked case, broken switch cap, etc.), the phone is swapped, and the customer pays for replacement depending on if the device is still covered under the original or extended AppleCare warranty coverage period. If the first case doesn't apply, the device is restored w/the latest publicly available restore image (which would wipe the jailbreak). If the original issue persists after the restore, the phone is swapped. If not, the issue is determined to be software related and the phone returned to the customer.
Apple strongly cautions against installing any software that hacks the iPhone OS. It is also important to note that unauthorized modification of the iPhone OS is a violation of the iPhone end-user license agreement and because of this, Apple may deny service for an iPhone or iPod touch that has installed any unauthorized software.
iPhone EULA (software):
Section 2(c) of the Apple iPhone Software License Agreement19 provides that:
You may not and agree not to, or enable others to, copy (except as expressly
permitted by this License), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to
derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, or create derivative works of the
iPhone Software or any services provided by the iPhone Software, or any part
thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by
applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing
use of open-source components included with the iPhone Software).
Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the
iPhone Software.
On "reverse engineering":
U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act - Reverse engineering (section 1201(f))
This exception permits circumvention, and the development of technological means for such circumvention, by a person who has lawfully obtained a right to use a copy of a computer program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing elements of the program necessary to achieve interoperability with other programs, to the extent that such acts are permitted under copyright law.
In order to find a software's "exploits", one must first "study or analyze a device or program"... the very definition of reverse engineering. To use these apps, you must alter (modify) the filesystem of the iPhone (iPhone Software). These hacks in turn force (decompile, disassemble) v1.1.1 to mount read-write so you can access it and then alter (modify) it.
You don't own the software. Anyone who analyzes the software or uses a crack to modify the software violates the material that is clearly copyrighted and owned by Apple (as is clearly pointed out in the EULA), is in direct violation of the iPhone EULA. U.S. Copyright Law would be violated if a person altered or modified copyrighted material to which they had no legal grounds to do such to.
With respect to software, the term interoperability is used to describe the capability of different programs to exchange data via a common set of business procedures, and to read and write the same file formats and use the same protocols. In other words, the ability to exchange and use information in a large network made up of several local area networks and the ability of software and hardware on multiple machines from multiple vendors to communicate. I.e., Cisco Clean Access or something like Novell NetWare. It has nothing to do with using third-party apps on the iPhone.
Is it legal to decompile source code to find vulnerabilities? It seems to be okay to reverse engineer for the purpose of looking for security vulnerabilities . . . provided that you disclose such vulnerabilities to the software vendor and owner. This would would allow the software vendor to act promptly, fix and disclose the vulnerability.
Is it legal to exploit vulnerabilities discovered from decompiling source code? No, since at least in the U.S., that violates Copyright Law.
The iPhone Dev Team had no prior permission or legal rights from Apple to create their hacks. Accordingly, installation of such hacks is a violation of the iPhone EULA.
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can deny you service pertaining to the device (iPhone) on which infringement has occurred, at any time.
The alternative App store only available on Jailbroken iPhones that allows for the stealing of money from iPhone developers through the availability of cracked and pirated Apps.
This will bring out all the high and mighty BULLSHIT, that no-one EVER jailbreaks their iPhones to get pirated Apps.
What strange logic. Some people pirate apps so everyone that jailbreaks is guilty of piracy? By that logic, all Australians could be accused of killing aborigines. But that would be a BULLSHIT leap in logic...wouldn't it?
What strange logic. Some people pirate apps so everyone that jailbreaks is guilty of piracy? By that logic, all Australians could be accused of killing aborigines. But that would be a BULLSHIT leap in logic...wouldn't it?
No, they're just guilty of infringing on Apple's iPhone EULA. LOL, pick your poison.
I'm aware of KBase article, the EULA and section 1201 of the DMCA. I'm aware of software being provided under license. What part of "I was a Genius for two years" didn't you read, Quadra? Are you aware of the DMCA exemption regarding phone unlocks, titled "Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies"? Relevant text @ http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.pdf. It expires after three years, a new hearing was held but so far a ruling has not been issued, so its status is up in the air.
I felt as most do that it voided the warranty. Apple has those placards on every Genius Bar quoting that "Apple may deny service for..." But note that it doesn't say "void the warranty". In fact, the word "void" isn't in the software license agreement or the hardware warranty. For over a year I would turn customers with hacked phones away, informing them that they voided their warranty and that we couldn't help them.
Until we had a lawyer come in who had hacked his phone.
When presented with my statements, he became angry, and demanded documentation. I showed him the placard and he stated that it was meaningless if it wasn't in the warranty. He demanded to see the warranty. I printed out a copy from http://www.apple.com/legal/ and he left.
The next day, the VERY next day, he was back for a replacement. He indicated that he had contacted Apple's CR dept. and had spoken to a representative, and that I was to check his file. I pulled it up and there it was, that he was to be given a replacement phone. So I did.
And then I did some more research, and asked some managers, eventually making my way up the chain to a regional manager. The response was no, I was not deny warranty replacement of a jailbroken iPhone if they push. Apple could could go after them with a civil breach of contract or felony breach of the DMCA but that the hardware warranty stood. Apple employees are not to play cop, it'd get Apple into too much legal trouble.
So yes you're going to get individual stores that complain and you may very well get Geniuses that will erroneously deny you warranty coverage but if you ask to speak to a manager and if they are uncooperative, you ask for the Customer Relations contact # and call them, they will oblige. Or just restore the damn thing and then make another appointment -- the Behavior Scan software they use isn't a forensic tool; once it's restored there's no way for them to tell (at least with hardware up to the 3GS, I don't know about the iPad).
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can get pissed and they could file a lawsuit against you but the incredible bad PR they would garner (as SO MANY PEOPLE unlock and jailbreak their phones) wouldn't be worth it. Their hardware warranty doesn't include software modifications (the EULA covers software, the hardware warranty covers the phone itself). It's not worth the hassle for them to continue arguing usually past a store manager level and they will acquiesce.
Or look at it another way:
Their software license only allows you one backup copy of their software. You make a second backup, you're technically in violation. You think an Apple employee would be able to deny someone service on their device if they found out a user had a 2nd backup? In Quadra's world, yes. In the other world, the real world, Apple employees encourage multiple backups; thereby encouraging their users to violate their own EULA.
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it. Like so many rules in life. If you followed every little one to the letter you could barely get up in the morning to take a crap. So you pick and choose those that keep you out of the most trouble and allow you to live the life you want. Jailbreaking a cellphone keeps lawyers in Lexuses but in actuality it means very little to you and me (at least in the US, so far).
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it.
No, it's just inconvenient to enforce them consistently, with every single individual. That does not make them "complete BS", however. Unless you think IP rights are also "complete BS."
Apple is more concerned, on a case-by-case basis, to make customers happy, even though some of them have done outlandish things to their devices. If customers push hard enough, Apple might decide it's easier to just throw them a bone. Apple's IP rights must still stand, however, and appear clearly in written form.
That does not invalidate the rules. It simply means that Apple can enforce them at their own pleasure.
Go ahead and tell Psystar that Apple's EULA is "complete BS." I'd be interested in seeing their response. You'll have to wait until they remove their tail from between their legs, though.
I'm pretty sure Apple takes their IP rights quite seriously and doesn't think they're "complete BS." But in many cases when dealing with customers Apple has to make a decision in terms of how far they will go. The exceptions, in fact, prove the rule.
I am agreeing with you. Jailbreaking doesn't mean you are a thief. Sorry, they weren't funnier (or funny) the DMV seems to suck away all original or creative thoughts.
When you speak of IP (or more accurately, intellectual monopolies, not property), you're really talking about copyright, patents, and trademarks; three separate and different entities involving three separate and different sets of laws. And yes, I think "most" of it is BS. An idea isn't property, it's knowledge. Software & business process patents and copyright in general have gotten so far afield from how they were originally intentioned that it's not even funny anymore; they've become a hindrance to progress at the expense of the many for the profit of the few. Laws such as the DMCA aren't in place to benefit the people, but business.. and not to protect their works against illegal dissemination as much as they are to restrict choice and competition.
If I want to make a 2nd backup of a piece of Apple software, I will. If I want to modify a piece of software that I paid for, running on my own hardware for my own personal reasons, I'm gonna' do it. I'll show others how to do so as well. It may not be considered legal, but just because something's a law doesn't make it right.
And no, while jailbreaking your iPhone may be illegal within certain contexts and jurisdictions, it still doesn't void the warranty.
I'm aware of KBase article, the EULA and section 1201 of the DMCA. I'm aware of software being provided under license. What part of "I was a Genius for two years" didn't you read, Quadra? Are you aware of the DMCA exemption regarding phone unlocks, titled "Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies"? Relevant text @ http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.pdf. It expires after three years, a new hearing was held but so far a ruling has not been issued, so its status is up in the air.
I felt as most do that it voided the warranty. Apple has those placards on every Genius Bar quoting that "Apple may deny service for..." But note that it doesn't say "void the warranty". In fact, the word "void" isn't in the software license agreement or the hardware warranty. For over a year I would turn customers with hacked phones away, informing them that they voided their warranty and that we couldn't help them.
Until we had a lawyer come in who had hacked his phone.
When presented with my statements, he became angry, and demanded documentation. I showed him the placard and he stated that it was meaningless if it wasn't in the warranty. He demanded to see the warranty. I printed out a copy from http://www.apple.com/legal/ and he left.
The next day, the VERY next day, he was back for a replacement. He indicated that he had contacted Apple's CR dept. and had spoken to a representative, and that I was to check his file. I pulled it up and there it was, that he was to be given a replacement phone. So I did.
And then I did some more research, and asked some managers, eventually making my way up the chain to a regional manager. The response was no, I was not deny warranty replacement of a jailbroken iPhone if they push. Apple could could go after them with a civil breach of contract or felony breach of the DMCA but that the hardware warranty stood. Apple employees are not to play cop, it'd get Apple into too much legal trouble.
So yes you're going to get individual stores that complain and you may very well get Geniuses that will erroneously deny you warranty coverage but if you ask to speak to a manager and if they are uncooperative, you ask for the Customer Relations contact # and call them, they will oblige. Or just restore the damn thing and then make another appointment -- the Behavior Scan software they use isn't a forensic tool; once it's restored there's no way for them to tell (at least with hardware up to the 3GS, I don't know about the iPad).
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can get pissed and they could file a lawsuit against you but the incredible bad PR they would garner (as SO MANY PEOPLE unlock and jailbreak their phones) wouldn't be worth it. Their hardware warranty doesn't include software modifications (the EULA covers software, the hardware warranty covers the phone itself). It's not worth the hassle for them to continue arguing usually past a store manager level and they will acquiesce.
Or look at it another way:
Their software license only allows you one backup copy of their software. You make a second backup, you're technically in violation. You think an Apple employee would be able to deny someone service on their device if they found out a user had a 2nd backup? In Quadra's world, yes. In the other world, the real world, Apple employees encourage multiple backups; thereby encouraging their users to violate their own EULA.
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it. Like so many rules in life. If you followed every little one to the letter you could barely get up in the morning to take a crap. So you pick and choose those that keep you out of the most trouble and allow you to live the life you want. Jailbreaking a cellphone keeps lawyers in Lexuses but in actuality it means very little to you and me (at least in the US, so far).
He called, he complained, he got a free iPhone. You worked for Apple and still don't understand that this is how they handle whiners? They give them what they want so they go away as quickly and as quietly as possible.
Apple will deny service to a 100 or 200 people in a row, if they buy the lines being thrown their way by the Genius. First person that argues, or gives a compelling reason why they should be provided service, gets it. Customer service for large companies is exactly like this, across the board. Especially with public service bars like that within an Apple store. It's in Apple's best interest to make those positive interactions, within reason. Large numbers of people will comply with what they are told, and will be denied service very often and happily accept that. This is typical human psychology. The occasional "thinker" will come in, and know for certain that he/she is getting service on the device they're bringing it, regardless of what the "Genius" says. Those people get free iPhones. I know, I've seen it, and I've done it.
If I want to modify a piece of software that I paid for, running on my own hardware for my own personal reasons, I'm gonna' do it. I'll show others how to do so as well. It may not be considered legal, but just because something's a law doesn't make it right.
Comments
Got my words mixed up. Je m'excuse.
No biggie - I'm not a lawyer, but I'm surrounded by them in my work.
And you think EULAs suck?
Try getting a brief smack-down after violating existing specific (and arcane) federal regulations that detail how data is managed for anything being staged from terrestrial to orbit. A group I worked with caused the (chief) corporate attorney to run full gait down the hall to scream at us after we tapped into the uplink for a real-time tv-programming guide to mirror on the website.
(Went something like: hey! let's mirror the set-top box feed and create real-time programming updates for the users! - ya, that's simple - we'll just cache that stream over here ... {sounds of doppler affected yelling and several yards of running footfalls later we found out that's frowned-on})
Worked great that afternoon tho.
Sorry for the caps, but so many people seem to repeat this fallacy, AI's editors included, and it annoys the hell out of me. There are two relevant pieces of legalese that could refer to jailbreaking; these are in the software license agreement and in the hardware warranty.
The first covers permitted uses and restrictions, namely 2(c) where you are not to modify the software, stating that it may be illegal and that you are violating Apple's copyrights. There's an explicit exemption in the DMCA that provides for legal jailbreaking to allow interoperability between different cellular networks (it's this loophole that Apple has been lobbying to try to close). It makes NO claims as to warranty status, as the software is provided without warranty.
The second, hardware warranty covers the hardware ONLY and that I think where most of this confusion stems from. In it, it states that the warranty doesn't apply to a set of situations, including, "[damage] to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple." As you are modifying the software, not the hardware, this DOES NOT APPLY.
For Apple, if there's a hardware issue with the device that can be easily determined to be non-software related (cracked case, broken switch cap, etc.), the phone is swapped, and the customer pays for replacement depending on if the device is still covered under the original or extended AppleCare warranty coverage period. If the first case doesn't apply, the device is restored w/the latest publicly available restore image (which would wipe the jailbreak). If the original issue persists after the restore, the phone is swapped. If not, the issue is determined to be software related and the phone returned to the customer.
The alternative App store only available on Jailbroken iPhones that allows for the stealing of money from iPhone developers through the availability of cracked and pirated Apps.
This will bring out all the high and mighty BULLSHIT, that no-one EVER jailbreaks their iPhones to get pirated Apps.
You are wrong and your attitude betrays you in your words.
First of all, a person is not a criminal if they break any law (not all laws are criminal). Secondly, even if it was a criminal offense, no one would call people committing such minor acts criminals.
Thirdly, the other posters definitions are spot on. It is a big deal to treat a civil case as if it was a criminal one. The term quasi-criminal is not a term to be thrown around lightly.
Lastly, like I said, your attitude betrays you. You came up with your own definition for quasi-criminal. You claim that it means "sort of a criminal", but you also say that jailbreakers are lucky to be called that. This means that you believe people who jailbreak their phones to be practically criminals or full fledged criminals.
I was a Genius for two years, and this subject came up often. There's NOTHING IN THE APPLE WARRANTY THAT IS VOIDED BY JAILBREAKING, even if you walk up to a Genius bar with an obviously hacked phone. There's also NOTHING IN APPLE RETAIL STORE POLICY THAT CAN DENY SERVICE FOR A JAILBROKEN PHONE.
Sorry for the caps, but so many people seem to repeat this fallacy, AI's editors included, and it annoys the hell out of me. There are two relevant pieces of legalese that could refer to jailbreaking; these are in the software license agreement and in the hardware warranty.
The first covers permitted uses and restrictions, namely 2(c) where you are not to modify the software, stating that it may be illegal and that you are violating Apple's copyrights. There's an explicit exemption in the DMCA that provides for legal jailbreaking to allow interoperability between different cellular networks (it's this loophole that Apple has been lobbying to try to close). It makes NO claims as to warranty status, as the software is provided without warranty.
The second, hardware warranty covers the hardware ONLY and that I think where most of this confusion stems from. In it, it states that the warranty doesn't apply to a set of situations, including, "[damage] to a product or part that has been modified to alter functionality or capability without the written permission of Apple." As you are modifying the software, not the hardware, this DOES NOT APPLY.
For Apple, if there's a hardware issue with the device that can be easily determined to be non-software related (cracked case, broken switch cap, etc.), the phone is swapped, and the customer pays for replacement depending on if the device is still covered under the original or extended AppleCare warranty coverage period. If the first case doesn't apply, the device is restored w/the latest publicly available restore image (which would wipe the jailbreak). If the original issue persists after the restore, the phone is swapped. If not, the issue is determined to be software related and the phone returned to the customer.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3743
Apple strongly cautions against installing any software that hacks the iPhone OS. It is also important to note that unauthorized modification of the iPhone OS is a violation of the iPhone end-user license agreement and because of this, Apple may deny service for an iPhone or iPod touch that has installed any unauthorized software.
iPhone EULA (software):
Section 2(c) of the Apple iPhone Software License Agreement19 provides that:
You may not and agree not to, or enable others to, copy (except as expressly
permitted by this License), decompile, reverse engineer, disassemble, attempt to
derive the source code of, decrypt, modify, or create derivative works of the
iPhone Software or any services provided by the iPhone Software, or any part
thereof (except as and only to the extent any foregoing restriction is prohibited by
applicable law or to the extent as may be permitted by licensing terms governing
use of open-source components included with the iPhone Software).
Any attempt to do so is a violation of the rights of Apple and its licensors of the
iPhone Software.
On "reverse engineering":
U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act - Reverse engineering (section 1201(f))
This exception permits circumvention, and the development of technological means for such circumvention, by a person who has lawfully obtained a right to use a copy of a computer program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing elements of the program necessary to achieve interoperability with other programs, to the extent that such acts are permitted under copyright law.
In order to find a software's "exploits", one must first "study or analyze a device or program"... the very definition of reverse engineering. To use these apps, you must alter (modify) the filesystem of the iPhone (iPhone Software). These hacks in turn force (decompile, disassemble) v1.1.1 to mount read-write so you can access it and then alter (modify) it.
You don't own the software. Anyone who analyzes the software or uses a crack to modify the software violates the material that is clearly copyrighted and owned by Apple (as is clearly pointed out in the EULA), is in direct violation of the iPhone EULA. U.S. Copyright Law would be violated if a person altered or modified copyrighted material to which they had no legal grounds to do such to.
With respect to software, the term interoperability is used to describe the capability of different programs to exchange data via a common set of business procedures, and to read and write the same file formats and use the same protocols. In other words, the ability to exchange and use information in a large network made up of several local area networks and the ability of software and hardware on multiple machines from multiple vendors to communicate. I.e., Cisco Clean Access or something like Novell NetWare. It has nothing to do with using third-party apps on the iPhone.
Is it legal to decompile source code to find vulnerabilities? It seems to be okay to reverse engineer for the purpose of looking for security vulnerabilities . . . provided that you disclose such vulnerabilities to the software vendor and owner. This would would allow the software vendor to act promptly, fix and disclose the vulnerability.
Is it legal to exploit vulnerabilities discovered from decompiling source code? No, since at least in the U.S., that violates Copyright Law.
The iPhone Dev Team had no prior permission or legal rights from Apple to create their hacks. Accordingly, installation of such hacks is a violation of the iPhone EULA.
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can deny you service pertaining to the device (iPhone) on which infringement has occurred, at any time.
So tell us about App______s?
The alternative App store only available on Jailbroken iPhones that allows for the stealing of money from iPhone developers through the availability of cracked and pirated Apps.
This will bring out all the high and mighty BULLSHIT, that no-one EVER jailbreaks their iPhones to get pirated Apps.
What strange logic. Some people pirate apps so everyone that jailbreaks is guilty of piracy? By that logic, all Australians could be accused of killing aborigines. But that would be a BULLSHIT leap in logic...wouldn't it?
What strange logic. Some people pirate apps so everyone that jailbreaks is guilty of piracy? By that logic, all Australians could be accused of killing aborigines. But that would be a BULLSHIT leap in logic...wouldn't it?
No, they're just guilty of infringing on Apple's iPhone EULA. LOL, pick your poison.
I felt as most do that it voided the warranty. Apple has those placards on every Genius Bar quoting that "Apple may deny service for..." But note that it doesn't say "void the warranty". In fact, the word "void" isn't in the software license agreement or the hardware warranty. For over a year I would turn customers with hacked phones away, informing them that they voided their warranty and that we couldn't help them.
Until we had a lawyer come in who had hacked his phone.
When presented with my statements, he became angry, and demanded documentation. I showed him the placard and he stated that it was meaningless if it wasn't in the warranty. He demanded to see the warranty. I printed out a copy from http://www.apple.com/legal/ and he left.
The next day, the VERY next day, he was back for a replacement. He indicated that he had contacted Apple's CR dept. and had spoken to a representative, and that I was to check his file. I pulled it up and there it was, that he was to be given a replacement phone. So I did.
And then I did some more research, and asked some managers, eventually making my way up the chain to a regional manager. The response was no, I was not deny warranty replacement of a jailbroken iPhone if they push. Apple could could go after them with a civil breach of contract or felony breach of the DMCA but that the hardware warranty stood. Apple employees are not to play cop, it'd get Apple into too much legal trouble.
So yes you're going to get individual stores that complain and you may very well get Geniuses that will erroneously deny you warranty coverage but if you ask to speak to a manager and if they are uncooperative, you ask for the Customer Relations contact # and call them, they will oblige. Or just restore the damn thing and then make another appointment -- the Behavior Scan software they use isn't a forensic tool; once it's restored there's no way for them to tell (at least with hardware up to the 3GS, I don't know about the iPad).
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can get pissed and they could file a lawsuit against you but the incredible bad PR they would garner (as SO MANY PEOPLE unlock and jailbreak their phones) wouldn't be worth it. Their hardware warranty doesn't include software modifications (the EULA covers software, the hardware warranty covers the phone itself). It's not worth the hassle for them to continue arguing usually past a store manager level and they will acquiesce.
Or look at it another way:
Their software license only allows you one backup copy of their software. You make a second backup, you're technically in violation. You think an Apple employee would be able to deny someone service on their device if they found out a user had a 2nd backup? In Quadra's world, yes. In the other world, the real world, Apple employees encourage multiple backups; thereby encouraging their users to violate their own EULA.
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it. Like so many rules in life. If you followed every little one to the letter you could barely get up in the morning to take a crap. So you pick and choose those that keep you out of the most trouble and allow you to live the life you want. Jailbreaking a cellphone keeps lawyers in Lexuses but in actuality it means very little to you and me (at least in the US, so far).
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it.
No, it's just inconvenient to enforce them consistently, with every single individual. That does not make them "complete BS", however. Unless you think IP rights are also "complete BS."
Apple is more concerned, on a case-by-case basis, to make customers happy, even though some of them have done outlandish things to their devices. If customers push hard enough, Apple might decide it's easier to just throw them a bone. Apple's IP rights must still stand, however, and appear clearly in written form.
That does not invalidate the rules. It simply means that Apple can enforce them at their own pleasure.
Go ahead and tell Psystar that Apple's EULA is "complete BS." I'd be interested in seeing their response. You'll have to wait until they remove their tail from between their legs, though.
I'm pretty sure Apple takes their IP rights quite seriously and doesn't think they're "complete BS." But in many cases when dealing with customers Apple has to make a decision in terms of how far they will go. The exceptions, in fact, prove the rule.
I am agreeing with you. Jailbreaking doesn't mean you are a thief. Sorry, they weren't funnier (or funny) the DMV seems to suck away all original or creative thoughts.
understood.
Lots of strong feelings on the subject, it seems.
When you speak of IP (or more accurately, intellectual monopolies, not property), you're really talking about copyright, patents, and trademarks; three separate and different entities involving three separate and different sets of laws. And yes, I think "most" of it is BS. An idea isn't property, it's knowledge. Software & business process patents and copyright in general have gotten so far afield from how they were originally intentioned that it's not even funny anymore; they've become a hindrance to progress at the expense of the many for the profit of the few. Laws such as the DMCA aren't in place to benefit the people, but business.. and not to protect their works against illegal dissemination as much as they are to restrict choice and competition.
If I want to make a 2nd backup of a piece of Apple software, I will. If I want to modify a piece of software that I paid for, running on my own hardware for my own personal reasons, I'm gonna' do it. I'll show others how to do so as well. It may not be considered legal, but just because something's a law doesn't make it right.
And no, while jailbreaking your iPhone may be illegal within certain contexts and jurisdictions, it still doesn't void the warranty.
I'm aware of KBase article, the EULA and section 1201 of the DMCA. I'm aware of software being provided under license. What part of "I was a Genius for two years" didn't you read, Quadra? Are you aware of the DMCA exemption regarding phone unlocks, titled "Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies"? Relevant text @ http://www.copyright.gov/fedreg/2006/71fr68472.pdf. It expires after three years, a new hearing was held but so far a ruling has not been issued, so its status is up in the air.
I felt as most do that it voided the warranty. Apple has those placards on every Genius Bar quoting that "Apple may deny service for..." But note that it doesn't say "void the warranty". In fact, the word "void" isn't in the software license agreement or the hardware warranty. For over a year I would turn customers with hacked phones away, informing them that they voided their warranty and that we couldn't help them.
Until we had a lawyer come in who had hacked his phone.
When presented with my statements, he became angry, and demanded documentation. I showed him the placard and he stated that it was meaningless if it wasn't in the warranty. He demanded to see the warranty. I printed out a copy from http://www.apple.com/legal/ and he left.
The next day, the VERY next day, he was back for a replacement. He indicated that he had contacted Apple's CR dept. and had spoken to a representative, and that I was to check his file. I pulled it up and there it was, that he was to be given a replacement phone. So I did.
And then I did some more research, and asked some managers, eventually making my way up the chain to a regional manager. The response was no, I was not deny warranty replacement of a jailbroken iPhone if they push. Apple could could go after them with a civil breach of contract or felony breach of the DMCA but that the hardware warranty stood. Apple employees are not to play cop, it'd get Apple into too much legal trouble.
So yes you're going to get individual stores that complain and you may very well get Geniuses that will erroneously deny you warranty coverage but if you ask to speak to a manager and if they are uncooperative, you ask for the Customer Relations contact # and call them, they will oblige. Or just restore the damn thing and then make another appointment -- the Behavior Scan software they use isn't a forensic tool; once it's restored there's no way for them to tell (at least with hardware up to the 3GS, I don't know about the iPad).
In brief:
By violating Apple's IP rights, Apple can get pissed and they could file a lawsuit against you but the incredible bad PR they would garner (as SO MANY PEOPLE unlock and jailbreak their phones) wouldn't be worth it. Their hardware warranty doesn't include software modifications (the EULA covers software, the hardware warranty covers the phone itself). It's not worth the hassle for them to continue arguing usually past a store manager level and they will acquiesce.
Or look at it another way:
Their software license only allows you one backup copy of their software. You make a second backup, you're technically in violation. You think an Apple employee would be able to deny someone service on their device if they found out a user had a 2nd backup? In Quadra's world, yes. In the other world, the real world, Apple employees encourage multiple backups; thereby encouraging their users to violate their own EULA.
The reality is that a lot of these rules are complete BS and Apple knows it. Like so many rules in life. If you followed every little one to the letter you could barely get up in the morning to take a crap. So you pick and choose those that keep you out of the most trouble and allow you to live the life you want. Jailbreaking a cellphone keeps lawyers in Lexuses but in actuality it means very little to you and me (at least in the US, so far).
He called, he complained, he got a free iPhone. You worked for Apple and still don't understand that this is how they handle whiners? They give them what they want so they go away as quickly and as quietly as possible.
Apple will deny service to a 100 or 200 people in a row, if they buy the lines being thrown their way by the Genius. First person that argues, or gives a compelling reason why they should be provided service, gets it. Customer service for large companies is exactly like this, across the board. Especially with public service bars like that within an Apple store. It's in Apple's best interest to make those positive interactions, within reason. Large numbers of people will comply with what they are told, and will be denied service very often and happily accept that. This is typical human psychology. The occasional "thinker" will come in, and know for certain that he/she is getting service on the device they're bringing it, regardless of what the "Genius" says. Those people get free iPhones. I know, I've seen it, and I've done it.
If I want to modify a piece of software that I paid for, running on my own hardware for my own personal reasons, I'm gonna' do it. I'll show others how to do so as well. It may not be considered legal, but just because something's a law doesn't make it right.
Thus Skynet was born