The only question I have about the next version of office is whether the mac version will support the same equation editing as the Windows version. The fact that you can't even SEE the Word 2007 equations in Word 2008 is a real problem for me when I take documents home from work. I try to encourage people to use MathType instead of the Word 2007 equations, but our IT dept is threatening to not pay for MathType anymore.
I've asked this in many different places, but nobody seems to know.
You really have no idea what an icon is. Haven't you seen the "phone" icon on the iPhone? Or the "iPod" icon on the iPad? They are all legacy shapes because people know what these old shapes mean. That is the idea behind icons. Scissors are another example of that for the "cut" command.
I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.
Actually, your right. The problem isn't Solipsism per se - the original article is confusing and should be clarified. There was no reason to even mention the phrase "vista ribbon" - it adds nothing to the story except for unnecessary confusion.
I agree that he author could have clarified the evolution of the Ribbon from Fluent to the Framework to make his usage more clear but that I is only in retrospect, as I thought the inclusion of Vista and Vista-era made it clear.
If Angus hadn't started the comment with his typical odious comment I would have let it go, then it just became fun to strangle him with his Ribbon (I'm not tell you which one).
PS: Thanks Mr. H, I didn't think it was a tough timeline to follow or that the thread would get out of hand. The lesson here is don't reply to trolls.
I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.
TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.
TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.
Any ideas for a better choice?
Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office.
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
According to the Office UI team, "Save" was the second most used command in Word 2003 behind "Paste". So it would be wrong not to have a Save button even if the app does have auto-save.
It's not that Microsoft introduced old-styled icons. They are everywhere and for a reason. Just think of the "Mail" app icon on the Mac, "Folder" icons on every system or traffic signs around the world.
Who has a better idea for "Save" that's not confusing with a "download" button?
iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office. Hey, I think MS blows too so I'm no fan boy, but Office is still king of the office. Once MS makes the Mac version run Visual Freaking Basic once again and have a similar look and feel to the Windows version, they will truly have something. I say that still being a fan of Apple's UI rules.
By the way, there are so many more features and capabilities in Office than in iWork that MS needed to do something about how far deep these features lie within the UI. I hated the Ribbon Bar at first but I'm getting used to it. If 2011 has VBA, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm sticking with 2004.
Saldog
Hi, Saldog: Yes, VBA is back in Office for Mac 2011... this was announced a while back by the MacBU. I'd agree the Windows Office Ribbon (also now used on several other programs) takes some getting used to, but does indeed allow a user to find and make use of features that they would otherwise probably not experience. With more power and functionality comes a level of complexity - however good the UI design. I remember using MacPaint way back.. took only 10 min. to learn... but then again it didn't do much!
PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.
PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.
Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.
Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.
If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.
Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?
Thanks... will give it a go - try and ignore flame war merchants and focus on sharing information and insights! The the majority of Mac Users are great.. knowledgeable, enthusiastic about the platform and happy to share their views and experiences in a positive way.
As someone who's used (and at times even worked for) both Apple and Microsoft from the very 1st days (Apple II / PC with DOS) through to today (Snow L / Win 7), I always try use both - stay current with what they can (and can't) do and see and explain from my personal viewpoint the benefits or drawbacks in both platforms ... we're all entitled to our opinions... glad most sane people realise that they don't need to insult everyone else just because theirs differs!
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. … . For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages
Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).
Pages doesn't include an equations editor.
Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.
The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.
Update: just found out Pages doesn't even have cross-referencing! So, if you insert a picture and give it a caption that is auto-numbered (e.g. "figure 1"), you can't then cross-reference that caption in the text; you just have to manually write e.g. "figure 1 shows that...". However, that means if you now insert a new figure earlier in the document, such that "figure 1" becomes "figure 2", you have to go and find all the references to "figure 1" in the text and change them to "figure 2". Oh dear.
Another one: in Word, you can set the position of floating objects (i.e., ones that aren't inline with the text) relative to the page (e.g. left for horizontal position and middle for vertical position). In Pages, you can only set the position by x and y co-ordinate of the top-left corner of the object (quick, get your calculator out and figure out where the top-left corner of the object you're positioning should be if you want said object left-middle on the page!)
P.S. Can you tell I'm playing with the free Pages trial?
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
Not magical or mystical. Powerful. Ubiquity is definitely no virtue. Aren't we all using Windows? By "we" I mean those of us working for Fortune 500 companies and the companies that serve them.
To be more specific, I'm mainly talking about Excel, which you can say what you will about MS, but they got that one right. Might be the best productivity app of all time. Windows version is much better than Mac I'm sorry to say.
Keynote rocks. Pages is pretty good but it needs to work better with .doc. Numbers is a nice tool but just a toy compared to Excel. The things you can do with Access are great too. I wish there was a nice equivalent.
Sorry for being vague but you need to experience the product in a work setting to see for yourself.
As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.
Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.
If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.
MacMan
Numbers is obviously the weakest link in iWork, since it is also the newest addition. However when a lack of features in Numbers is being argued, it always seems to come down to Pivot Tables. That is still just one feature. Numbers has some really nice table and chart building features that Excel probably does not approach. Does that count as a point against Excel? Apparently not. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of people don't have any use for the "deep toolset" of Excel. What they do need is a toolset of features they can actually use because it is well implemented.
If someone has a need of any given feature which is only in Excel, fine -- use Excel. But to say anything else is inherently feature poor on that account, is not an accurate argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. H
Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages
Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).
Pages doesn't include an equations editor.
Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.
The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.
I have no problems with numbered headings in Pages. Not sure where you're running into one. Since you've never used it for more than five minutes, maybe that's the actual problem. It's not magical, you have to learn how these things are handled in Pages. In fact the way styles are handled in Pages is so much easier in cleaner that you might be overlooking the simplicity.
I find Pages to be far more than an "entry-level" word processor (whatever that slur is supposed to mean). I've been using it for years, since version 1.0, for all of our business word processing. I think it's really good, and I am grateful that Apple didn't try to make it into the Word clone that would have made some people happy.
Comments
I've asked this in many different places, but nobody seems to know.
You really have no idea what an icon is. Haven't you seen the "phone" icon on the iPhone? Or the "iPod" icon on the iPad? They are all legacy shapes because people know what these old shapes mean. That is the idea behind icons. Scissors are another example of that for the "cut" command.
I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.
Actually, your right. The problem isn't Solipsism per se - the original article is confusing and should be clarified. There was no reason to even mention the phrase "vista ribbon" - it adds nothing to the story except for unnecessary confusion.
I agree that he author could have clarified the evolution of the Ribbon from Fluent to the Framework to make his usage more clear but that I is only in retrospect, as I thought the inclusion of Vista and Vista-era made it clear.
If Angus hadn't started the comment with his typical odious comment I would have let it go, then it just became fun to strangle him with his Ribbon (I'm not tell you which one).
PS: Thanks Mr. H, I didn't think it was a tough timeline to follow or that the thread would get out of hand. The lesson here is don't reply to trolls.
I know full well what an icon is, thank you. The problem with using a 3-1/2" floppy disk as an icon is it was a mediocre and relatively short-lived technology (approximately 20 years) versus a phone or scissors, which are still in use (as is the iPod Classic, although I don't think that's a great example either.) Symbolically, it represents a look backwards from a company whose greatest success and failings are predicated on looking backwards.
TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.
Any ideas for a better choice?
TiAdiMundo makes a good case there. Even YouTube has an old wood-framed CRT TV as the icon. But I'm inclined to agree with you as I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button. How many kids today have used a floppy disc? I'm sure all have used a pair of scissors.
Any ideas for a better choice?
Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
I can't find any Apple apps that have a Save button.
It is a better system to just autosave documents immediately. I use Stickies because of that (and they sync with MobileMe)
iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office.
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
I don't think the floppy disc is as iconic or the best way to represent the Save button...
Any ideas for a better choice?
Unfortunately, this doesn't lend itself to making a good icon, but it emphasizes the importance of 'saving' your work:
http://static.pyzam.com/img/funnypic...y-computer.jpg
Pages, for instance, has no Save button at all. Do we even need a Save button?
According to the Office UI team, "Save" was the second most used command in Word 2003 behind "Paste". So it would be wrong not to have a Save button even if the app does have auto-save.
It's not that Microsoft introduced old-styled icons. They are everywhere and for a reason. Just think of the "Mail" app icon on the Mac, "Folder" icons on every system or traffic signs around the world.
Who has a better idea for "Save" that's not confusing with a "download" button?
iWork is pretty and I wish I could use it everyday. But the simple fact is that it is nowhere near as powerful or ubiquitous as Office. Hey, I think MS blows too so I'm no fan boy, but Office is still king of the office. Once MS makes the Mac version run Visual Freaking Basic once again and have a similar look and feel to the Windows version, they will truly have something. I say that still being a fan of Apple's UI rules.
By the way, there are so many more features and capabilities in Office than in iWork that MS needed to do something about how far deep these features lie within the UI. I hated the Ribbon Bar at first but I'm getting used to it. If 2011 has VBA, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm sticking with 2004.
Saldog
Hi, Saldog: Yes, VBA is back in Office for Mac 2011... this was announced a while back by the MacBU. I'd agree the Windows Office Ribbon (also now used on several other programs) takes some getting used to, but does indeed allow a user to find and make use of features that they would otherwise probably not experience. With more power and functionality comes a level of complexity - however good the UI design. I remember using MacPaint way back.. took only 10 min. to learn... but then again it didn't do much!
PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.
PS. The general level of comment on these forums is seriously sad, wish people would stick to facts not schoolboy name calling.. used a Mac for years, but this level of so called debate just looks foolish and makes us all look like idiots with little to do but throw insults at each other.
Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.
Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.
If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.
MacMan
Don't give up! We're not all bad. Why not stick around and raise the tone?
Thanks... will give it a go - try and ignore flame war merchants and focus on sharing information and insights! The the majority of Mac Users are great.. knowledgeable, enthusiastic about the platform and happy to share their views and experiences in a positive way.
As someone who's used (and at times even worked for) both Apple and Microsoft from the very 1st days (Apple II / PC with DOS) through to today (Snow L / Win 7), I always try use both - stay current with what they can (and can't) do and see and explain from my personal viewpoint the benefits or drawbacks in both platforms ... we're all entitled to our opinions... glad most sane people realise that they don't need to insult everyone else just because theirs differs!
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. … . For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages
Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).
Pages doesn't include an equations editor.
Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.
The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.
P.S. Can you tell I'm playing with the free Pages trial?
Blech. I always have to react with disgust to such vague assertions. For one, ubiquity is just ubiquity. If we believe that ubiquity alone is a virtue, then we'd all be using Windows. For another, I wonder what sort of "powers" Office has that iWork lacks. Are they magical or mystical? If neither of those, then what? Please be specific.
Not magical or mystical. Powerful. Ubiquity is definitely no virtue. Aren't we all using Windows? By "we" I mean those of us working for Fortune 500 companies and the companies that serve them.
To be more specific, I'm mainly talking about Excel, which you can say what you will about MS, but they got that one right. Might be the best productivity app of all time. Windows version is much better than Mac I'm sorry to say.
Keynote rocks. Pages is pretty good but it needs to work better with .doc. Numbers is a nice tool but just a toy compared to Excel. The things you can do with Access are great too. I wish there was a nice equivalent.
Sorry for being vague but you need to experience the product in a work setting to see for yourself.
As an example, Excel has a very deep toolset that Numbers does not approach .. one day it may, but it will also have then to deal with adding a whole new range of commands and menu's (and developing it's menu/icon/toolbar interface to handle it.
Pivot Tables a great example of a tool (one of many) that Office has long had, that is lacking in iWork.
If you want to view and review tables of data (sales report, league scores, you name it) then a Pivot table is a fantastic way to do so.. allowing you to re view the data in a myriad of ways quickly and without effecting the source data.
MacMan
Numbers is obviously the weakest link in iWork, since it is also the newest addition. However when a lack of features in Numbers is being argued, it always seems to come down to Pivot Tables. That is still just one feature. Numbers has some really nice table and chart building features that Excel probably does not approach. Does that count as a point against Excel? Apparently not. Further, I'd say that the vast majority of people don't have any use for the "deep toolset" of Excel. What they do need is a toolset of features they can actually use because it is well implemented.
If someone has a need of any given feature which is only in Excel, fine -- use Excel. But to say anything else is inherently feature poor on that account, is not an accurate argument.
Here's some, regarding Word vs. Pages
Setting up heading numbering in Pages is a nightmare. In Word, all my headings are left-aligned, have no dot after the final number (e.g. "1.1 Heading Level 2" as opposed to "1.1. Heading Level 2") and have a defined style that should follow. Try to achieve the same in Pages (hint: you can't). And to top it off, when you get the closest to that you can in Pages, when you create a table of contents, it won't include the heading numbers so you have to fiddle around with the style settings for the table of contents (every time the TOC is updated, of course).
Pages doesn't include an equations editor.
Given the issues with styles in Pages (nowhere near as powerful as in Word), I've never bothered to use Pages for more than five minutes, so you'll have to forgive me that those are the only examples I can give.
The thing is, no-one should expect Pages to be an equivalent to Word. iWork is an entry-level productivity suite, like Microsoft Works. Office is the Daddy.
I have no problems with numbered headings in Pages. Not sure where you're running into one. Since you've never used it for more than five minutes, maybe that's the actual problem. It's not magical, you have to learn how these things are handled in Pages. In fact the way styles are handled in Pages is so much easier in cleaner that you might be overlooking the simplicity.
I find Pages to be far more than an "entry-level" word processor (whatever that slur is supposed to mean). I've been using it for years, since version 1.0, for all of our business word processing. I think it's really good, and I am grateful that Apple didn't try to make it into the Word clone that would have made some people happy.
Equation editing, everybody needs that.
the entirely new Outlook for Mac (with Exchange support) and separate Address Book, Notes, and Calendar apps.
What are you guys talking about?
Those screenshots clearly show the contacts, notes, and calendars INSIDE Outlook precisely the same way as Outlook for Windows.
I have no problems with numbered headings in Pages. Not sure where you're running into one.
How about you read what I wrote again? Care to tell me how to achieve what I want? Because when I tried it just now, it appeared to be impossible.