With IE now pushing h.264 as part of IE9, the only browsers that support OGG/Theora are Firefox and Opera. Firefox is doing so mostly because of principal while I think Opera might be financially motivated.
More than Flash, I hate Acrobat Reader. If there's a Acrobat Reader killer technology out their then I'm all for that.
Foxit is a good replacement if you're talking Windows....
If you're on a Mac, then Preview is already there. You can also use Formulate Pro, which is free, allows you to add text, pencil lines, images, etc. (which is more than Acrobat Reader can do anyway.)
Acrobat Reader is not so great, considering the alternatives.
No Apple actually does not at all want Flash on its mobile devices.
Apple purports that it runs the whole web as designated by W3C standards. Flash is not apart of that.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
I never thought that flash would be challenged so quickly so soon. Honestly if these sites were not made I think there would have been a huge outcry by users of these popular sites about an inability to use them fully, and apple would have been forced to cave in (especially once Chrome OS tablets come around with full native flash support).
I have to give props to Apple for taking this risk, and all the sites that transitioned to HTML 5 for agreeing to start complying with web standards. Flash's demise may be closer then I thought.
Oh yes Apple does push standards. Apple was the first computer manufacturer to totally abandon floppy disks and multi-pin ports. They were the first to adopt USB, Firewire, CD drives, and WiFi across their entire computer line.
Standards are incredibly important. It is very much in Apple's advantage as well as the entire electronics industry that standards are adopted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkstreet
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Actually Apple pushes quite a few open standards, web or otherwise. Of course they decide based on design limitations. It would be stupid to do just blindly use something just because it's open. There are things being developed for the iPad that aren't really possible with open standards on the web. Flash doesn't count because it isn't a open standard. It is just a standard. Not only that, the experience as a whole, is superior.
I keep looking for this wall you and Quadra talk about. Must be something only you two can see.
Flash isn't going anywhere and moving from one technology to another often takes a very long time.
It would be in Apple best interest to work with Adobe to improve Flash on OSX and also bring it to the iPhone. Its not like it can't be done.
Just simply trying to kill something never work. Steve Jobs does have that much power and he certainly doesn't have the market share. As long as Windows systems can run Flash with no issues Flash will be alive for a very long time.
I could care less what technology is used HTML5 or Flash but as long as both exist then end users shoule at the very least have the option to install the Flash plugin.
you keep sprouting marketshare, it really tells me you do not get it. Btw SJ not trying to kill anything, just not drinking flashKoolaid with concern to Mac, since Adobe left us in winter tundra for so many years and now wants to help us because of iPhone/iPad situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater
HTML5 is already doing well. You are correct one technology doesn't need to fail for the other to do well. Its kind of like members here that think every smartphone need to fail for the iPhone to do well.
Or that Microsoft and Google needs to go under for Apple to rule the world.
Some forget one well known fact, competition breeds innovation. Anyone that believes otherwise is a fool. We have a few of those here.
Include yourself in that list with concern to last sentence, you have a reputation of provide more false information, actually on par with TECHSTUD!
Quote:
Originally Posted by foad
The problem with Flash, unlike other examples of tech, is that it is completely controlled by one company. Adobe/Macromedia let Flash stagnate for quite some time, especially on the Mac. That's until the iPhone and mobile devices in general really started to gain traction. That ultimately lit some kind of fire under Adobe's proverbial ass. Granted it was mostly out of fear of being left out.
Regardless of the iPhone OS devices, Adobe being the sole controller of Flash is not a good thing for the internet as a whole. That is the type of behavior that truly stifles innovation. The history of sites designed solely for Internet Explorer comes to mind when I think of Flash. We now see that even Microsoft is willing to sort of step up its game when it comes to standards. BTW, you can thank Safari,Mobile Safari & Firefox for that.
If Adobe had the guts, it would propose Flash as a open standard but from what I've been reading and hearing from friends that work at Adobe, the actual code is a mess. There are core parts of Flash have been around since even before it was released as Flash. Adobe trying to offload processing to the GPU is a hack. If other formats can utilize the CPU well enough, then Flash should be able to. My fans should not blow up and my battery should not be gasping for juice because of their crappy code. The code itself isn't optimized enough and it is solely Adobe's responsibility to fix it. On that note, since it isn't an open format, there is no way for others to improve it and they don't even have incentive to improve it. Adobe has shown that it is willing to release certain things as open standards. PDF is a perfect example of this. Now with Apple having hundreds of millions of devices that don't support Flash as part of the fastest growing tech sector, they are feeling the heat.
Finally, there isn't a single mobile phone that supports Flash and netbooks/other form factors that do, feel the pain with regards to battery life. 10+ hours of non-stop video is not in the near future when it comes to Flash and until that sort of optimization happens, Apple isn't even going to think about it and even then, it will probably be too late.
This was great reply to why Apple does not want to play with Flash anymore. Extremeskater please read this and try to understand.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Well, I know you were just dying to use that phrase yourself, but, not only have you not presented an argument that supports your assertion, simple common sense reasoning shows you are wrong. Adobe's control of Flash is just as big a problem for the openness of the web as Microsoft's use of it's monopoly to push IE was. Apple has every reason to push for open standards on the web, and, recently, has developed some clout to go along with that. Flash is a bloated resource hog, and that alone is a good enough reason to put it to rest. But it benefits everyone, consumers, content providers and technology companies to not have a major content pipeline controlled by a single company, especially an entirely unnecessary technology like Flash. The only one who loses from the demise of Flash is Adobe; for everyone else it's a win.
I could care less what technology is used HTML5 or Flash but as long as both exist then end users shoule at the very least have the option to install the Flash plugin.
There you go again, trying to push already discredited arguments.
a) No user ever chose Flash.
b) It's not like Apple is the lone holdout for no Flash on Mobile devices. It's not really running on any of them because it's a technology wholly unsuited for mobile devices.
c) I'm sure you'll be able to choose, for years to come, to install Flash on your Windows PC, but, in not so long, there really won't be any significant content for it. Don't you love choices?
The fact is and always has been that content formats are not a user choice. Content providers decide what formats we will get, and they always will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater
Some forget one well known fact, competition breeds innovation.
You know, you're absolutely right here. (Well, except for the aspects of your assertion that are mistaken.) Competition does often breed innovation. But you know what? The whole time we've been stuck with Flash, there hasn't been any competition, and we haven't seen any innovation from Adobe. Aren't you glad that that's all about to end?
EDIT: Oh, yeah, market share. You're still beating that dead horse?
There you go again, trying to push already discredited arguments.
a) No user ever chose Flash.
b) It's not like Apple is the lone holdout for no Flash on Mobile devices. It's not really running on any of them because it's a technology wholly unsuited for mobile devices.
c) I'm sure you'll be able to choose, for years to come, to install Flash on your Windows PC, but, in not so long, there really won't be any significant content for it. Don't you love choices?
The fact is and always has been that content formats are not a user choice. Content providers decide what formats we will get, and they always will.
You know, you're absolutely right here. (Well, except for the aspects of your assertion that are mistaken.) Competition does often breed innovation. But you know what? The whole time we've been stuck with Flash, there hasn't been any competition, and we haven't seen any innovation from Adobe. Aren't you glad that that's all about to end?
EDIT: Oh, yeah, market share. You're still beating that dead horse?
Sorry in this case market share plays a major role in this situation. Flash is with little to no issue on a systems with a Windows OS as long as that remains the case Flash is going nowhere. Let me repeat myself, Flash is going nonwhere.
For Windows users they could care less if something uses Flash or HTML5 because both just simply work fine.
You cant get through your thick skull that the issue is OSX and the fact Apple does not supply the information Adobe needs to invoke hardware acceleration.
If you can't understand that simple fact even though I have posted it a million times by now stop replying to my posts because you are simply too stupid to get it.
The only thing dead is whats between your ears because like so many others here you simply do not understand the technology.
I will bring up another point if you don't want to believe me. Run something using Flash with Safari under OSX, then do the same with Safari for Windows. Then come back and even try to tell me its not an OSX issue. Hardware acceleration, look in the mirror and say it 100 times and maybe it will settle in that empty skull of yours.
Include yourself in that list with concern to last sentence, you have a reputation of provide more false information, actually on par with TECHSTUD!
No its just a case when you dont agree or understand something you look at it as false information. The problem isn't me its your lack of understanding when it comes to technology.
Don't worry its a problem several of your co-koolaid drinkers have here.
Not necessarily. When Firefox and Safari came to the scene to force the web to support HTML standards they did not allow the proprietary IE code that most websites at the time were using to degrade gracefully. They just did not support it at all. Eventually the majority of the web began using HTML standards.
I don't know how many remember when Firefox launched. There weren't many sites that worked well with it but it the pickup seemed to be exponential. Even government sites seem to be okay with Gecko and WebKit-based browsers these days; It's now been years since I was told i need an ActiveX plugin. On top of that, we have IE moving to more standards, even adding the HTML5 video tag with H.264 codec support.
No its just a case when you dont agree or understand something you look at it as false information. The problem isn't me its your lack of understanding when it comes to technology.
Don't worry its a problem several of your co-koolaid drinkers have here.
Flash is going nowhere. Let me repeat myself, Flash is going nonwhere (sic).
We're in complete agreement here. Flash is going nowhere!
Quote:
You cant get through your thick skull that the issue is OSX and the fact Apple does not supply the information Adobe needs to invoke hardware acceleration.
If you can't understand that simple fact even though I have posted it a million times by now stop replying to my posts because you are simply too stupid to get it.
The only thing dead is whats between your ears because like so many others here you simply do not understand the technology.
You have posted it a million times, haven't you? And you've been told a million times that it's nonsense. Yet, you keep posting it over and over and over again. It's still nonsense. And repeating it over and over and over again doesn't make it any less nonsense.
Quote:
I will bring up another point if you don't want to believe me. Run something using Flash with Safari under OSX, then do the same with Safari for Windows. Then come back and even try to tell me its not an OSX issue. Hardware acceleration, look in the mirror and say it 100 times and maybe it will settle in that empty skull of yours.
So, you think that proves OS X is the problem? I think you weren't listening too well in logic class.
Comments
Looks like it's safe for all the HTML5 doubters to acknowledge its presence.
HTML5 video tag doesn't have to use h.264, even though its mostly used.
like they are going to use theora
SJ is right again.
Looks like it's safe for all the HTML5 doubters to acknowledge its presence.
Exactly! If it was not for Apple we would all still be using floppy disks and serial printer ports! Ahhhhh!
but then you'll have to pay for them
firefox doesn't support h.264
With IE now pushing h.264 as part of IE9, the only browsers that support OGG/Theora are Firefox and Opera. Firefox is doing so mostly because of principal while I think Opera might be financially motivated.
More than Flash, I hate Acrobat Reader. If there's a Acrobat Reader killer technology out their then I'm all for that.
Foxit is a good replacement if you're talking Windows....
If you're on a Mac, then Preview is already there. You can also use Formulate Pro, which is free, allows you to add text, pencil lines, images, etc. (which is more than Acrobat Reader can do anyway.)
Acrobat Reader is not so great, considering the alternatives.
No Apple actually does not at all want Flash on its mobile devices.
Apple purports that it runs the whole web as designated by W3C standards. Flash is not apart of that.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
I have to give props to Apple for taking this risk, and all the sites that transitioned to HTML 5 for agreeing to start complying with web standards. Flash's demise may be closer then I thought.
like they are going to use theora
Standards are incredibly important. It is very much in Apple's advantage as well as the entire electronics industry that standards are adopted.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Actually Apple pushes quite a few open standards, web or otherwise. Of course they decide based on design limitations. It would be stupid to do just blindly use something just because it's open. There are things being developed for the iPad that aren't really possible with open standards on the web. Flash doesn't count because it isn't a open standard. It is just a standard. Not only that, the experience as a whole, is superior.
I keep looking for this wall you and Quadra talk about. Must be something only you two can see.
Flash isn't going anywhere and moving from one technology to another often takes a very long time.
It would be in Apple best interest to work with Adobe to improve Flash on OSX and also bring it to the iPhone. Its not like it can't be done.
Just simply trying to kill something never work. Steve Jobs does have that much power and he certainly doesn't have the market share. As long as Windows systems can run Flash with no issues Flash will be alive for a very long time.
I could care less what technology is used HTML5 or Flash but as long as both exist then end users shoule at the very least have the option to install the Flash plugin.
you keep sprouting marketshare, it really tells me you do not get it. Btw SJ not trying to kill anything, just not drinking flashKoolaid with concern to Mac, since Adobe left us in winter tundra for so many years and now wants to help us because of iPhone/iPad situation.
HTML5 is already doing well. You are correct one technology doesn't need to fail for the other to do well. Its kind of like members here that think every smartphone need to fail for the iPhone to do well.
Or that Microsoft and Google needs to go under for Apple to rule the world.
Some forget one well known fact, competition breeds innovation. Anyone that believes otherwise is a fool. We have a few of those here.
Include yourself in that list with concern to last sentence, you have a reputation of provide more false information, actually on par with TECHSTUD!
The problem with Flash, unlike other examples of tech, is that it is completely controlled by one company. Adobe/Macromedia let Flash stagnate for quite some time, especially on the Mac. That's until the iPhone and mobile devices in general really started to gain traction. That ultimately lit some kind of fire under Adobe's proverbial ass. Granted it was mostly out of fear of being left out.
Regardless of the iPhone OS devices, Adobe being the sole controller of Flash is not a good thing for the internet as a whole. That is the type of behavior that truly stifles innovation. The history of sites designed solely for Internet Explorer comes to mind when I think of Flash. We now see that even Microsoft is willing to sort of step up its game when it comes to standards. BTW, you can thank Safari,Mobile Safari & Firefox for that.
If Adobe had the guts, it would propose Flash as a open standard but from what I've been reading and hearing from friends that work at Adobe, the actual code is a mess. There are core parts of Flash have been around since even before it was released as Flash. Adobe trying to offload processing to the GPU is a hack. If other formats can utilize the CPU well enough, then Flash should be able to. My fans should not blow up and my battery should not be gasping for juice because of their crappy code. The code itself isn't optimized enough and it is solely Adobe's responsibility to fix it. On that note, since it isn't an open format, there is no way for others to improve it and they don't even have incentive to improve it. Adobe has shown that it is willing to release certain things as open standards. PDF is a perfect example of this. Now with Apple having hundreds of millions of devices that don't support Flash as part of the fastest growing tech sector, they are feeling the heat.
Finally, there isn't a single mobile phone that supports Flash and netbooks/other form factors that do, feel the pain with regards to battery life. 10+ hours of non-stop video is not in the near future when it comes to Flash and until that sort of optimization happens, Apple isn't even going to think about it and even then, it will probably be too late.
This was great reply to why Apple does not want to play with Flash anymore. Extremeskater please read this and try to understand.
Apple is not in business to drive Web standards. That's clear. Any choice to support or not support is based on design limitations. The push for open standards is nice but clearly a red herring.
Well, I know you were just dying to use that phrase yourself, but, not only have you not presented an argument that supports your assertion, simple common sense reasoning shows you are wrong. Adobe's control of Flash is just as big a problem for the openness of the web as Microsoft's use of it's monopoly to push IE was. Apple has every reason to push for open standards on the web, and, recently, has developed some clout to go along with that. Flash is a bloated resource hog, and that alone is a good enough reason to put it to rest. But it benefits everyone, consumers, content providers and technology companies to not have a major content pipeline controlled by a single company, especially an entirely unnecessary technology like Flash. The only one who loses from the demise of Flash is Adobe; for everyone else it's a win.
I could care less what technology is used HTML5 or Flash but as long as both exist then end users shoule at the very least have the option to install the Flash plugin.
There you go again, trying to push already discredited arguments.
a) No user ever chose Flash.
b) It's not like Apple is the lone holdout for no Flash on Mobile devices. It's not really running on any of them because it's a technology wholly unsuited for mobile devices.
c) I'm sure you'll be able to choose, for years to come, to install Flash on your Windows PC, but, in not so long, there really won't be any significant content for it. Don't you love choices?
The fact is and always has been that content formats are not a user choice. Content providers decide what formats we will get, and they always will.
Some forget one well known fact, competition breeds innovation.
You know, you're absolutely right here. (Well, except for the aspects of your assertion that are mistaken.) Competition does often breed innovation. But you know what? The whole time we've been stuck with Flash, there hasn't been any competition, and we haven't seen any innovation from Adobe. Aren't you glad that that's all about to end?
EDIT: Oh, yeah, market share. You're still beating that dead horse?
SJ is right again.
Looks like it's safe for all the HTML5 doubters to acknowledge its presence.
Yet again when it comes to technology you have no clue what you are talking about.
There you go again, trying to push already discredited arguments.
a) No user ever chose Flash.
b) It's not like Apple is the lone holdout for no Flash on Mobile devices. It's not really running on any of them because it's a technology wholly unsuited for mobile devices.
c) I'm sure you'll be able to choose, for years to come, to install Flash on your Windows PC, but, in not so long, there really won't be any significant content for it. Don't you love choices?
The fact is and always has been that content formats are not a user choice. Content providers decide what formats we will get, and they always will.
You know, you're absolutely right here. (Well, except for the aspects of your assertion that are mistaken.) Competition does often breed innovation. But you know what? The whole time we've been stuck with Flash, there hasn't been any competition, and we haven't seen any innovation from Adobe. Aren't you glad that that's all about to end?
EDIT: Oh, yeah, market share. You're still beating that dead horse?
Sorry in this case market share plays a major role in this situation. Flash is with little to no issue on a systems with a Windows OS as long as that remains the case Flash is going nowhere. Let me repeat myself, Flash is going nonwhere.
For Windows users they could care less if something uses Flash or HTML5 because both just simply work fine.
You cant get through your thick skull that the issue is OSX and the fact Apple does not supply the information Adobe needs to invoke hardware acceleration.
If you can't understand that simple fact even though I have posted it a million times by now stop replying to my posts because you are simply too stupid to get it.
The only thing dead is whats between your ears because like so many others here you simply do not understand the technology.
I will bring up another point if you don't want to believe me. Run something using Flash with Safari under OSX, then do the same with Safari for Windows. Then come back and even try to tell me its not an OSX issue. Hardware acceleration, look in the mirror and say it 100 times and maybe it will settle in that empty skull of yours.
Include yourself in that list with concern to last sentence, you have a reputation of provide more false information, actually on par with TECHSTUD!
No its just a case when you dont agree or understand something you look at it as false information. The problem isn't me its your lack of understanding when it comes to technology.
Don't worry its a problem several of your co-koolaid drinkers have here.
Not necessarily. When Firefox and Safari came to the scene to force the web to support HTML standards they did not allow the proprietary IE code that most websites at the time were using to degrade gracefully. They just did not support it at all. Eventually the majority of the web began using HTML standards.
I don't know how many remember when Firefox launched. There weren't many sites that worked well with it but it the pickup seemed to be exponential. Even government sites seem to be okay with Gecko and WebKit-based browsers these days; It's now been years since I was told i need an ActiveX plugin. On top of that, we have IE moving to more standards, even adding the HTML5 video tag with H.264 codec support.
No its just a case when you dont agree or understand something you look at it as false information. The problem isn't me its your lack of understanding when it comes to technology.
Don't worry its a problem several of your co-koolaid drinkers have here.
What is there to "understand", exactly?
HTML5 = growth. This is all that matters.
Flash is going nowhere. Let me repeat myself, Flash is going nonwhere (sic).
We're in complete agreement here. Flash is going nowhere!
You cant get through your thick skull that the issue is OSX and the fact Apple does not supply the information Adobe needs to invoke hardware acceleration.
If you can't understand that simple fact even though I have posted it a million times by now stop replying to my posts because you are simply too stupid to get it.
The only thing dead is whats between your ears because like so many others here you simply do not understand the technology.
You have posted it a million times, haven't you? And you've been told a million times that it's nonsense. Yet, you keep posting it over and over and over again. It's still nonsense. And repeating it over and over and over again doesn't make it any less nonsense.
I will bring up another point if you don't want to believe me. Run something using Flash with Safari under OSX, then do the same with Safari for Windows. Then come back and even try to tell me its not an OSX issue. Hardware acceleration, look in the mirror and say it 100 times and maybe it will settle in that empty skull of yours.
So, you think that proves OS X is the problem? I think you weren't listening too well in logic class.