As evidence? My Mac IIsi (20 MHz PPC) opened apps in a few seconds and did most tasks with little or no significant delay. My iMac (2,800 MHz with 2 processors and 100 times the RAM and dramatically faster GPU) also opens apps in a few seconds.
I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.
I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.
But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.
Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.
But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.
Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.
That's a very "chicken or the egg" question.
As a developer, i can see where most of this effect comes from, so let me explain..
Most programmers working with compiled code compile it on their own workstations rather than an external server. Thus, to speed up compiling, they tend to buy the bleeding edge hardware an average user either can not afford, or will not buy until his current machine fails in a year or longer.
So, the developer judges app performance based on performance he gets with his top-of-the-line hardware, and not the present level of average hardware in use.
Then, in time, when that app version gains wide distribution, hardware will have caught up to some degree, so users are not too vocal with their complaints.
Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.
The most exciting part about IE9 for me is the DOM level 3 support for JS, which is what really allows JavaScript to do anything even remotely like Flash and what most people mean when they say HTML5 is replacing Flash. For those of you who care about semantics, HTML5 is NOT replacing Flash, HTML/JS/AJAX/CSS is. And the most critical part of that puzzle is JS which has been a nightmare to develop with any kind of consistency across browsers until recently (webkit / html5) and is still being held up by IE8.
All these examples you see going around with fancy HTML5 + JS implementations are only running well on webkit browsers which basically means they are useless in the real world. IE9 however will finally bring MS into the present day and hopefully change all that. Now if we could only get the corporate world to abandon IE7 and XP we could really free the web.
Ok nevermind: you did say "abandon xp"
But i doubt they will be willing to upgrade that much hardware in such a poor economy...
-------
Keep dreaming..... about IE9.
The problem is that only Vista and Windows 7 support IE9.
But there are netbooks sold as we speak that run only XP.
The corporate network machines that are running IE6 right now are XP.
The only people that will get IE9 for XP is the hackers willing to put the time and effort to upgrade XP to DirectX 11, and patch the installer to ignore other issues....that is, if IE 9 isn't using some other new API that is completely tied to Vista/7....
So...Flash and old IE bugs will get at least another 5 year stay of execution
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
Nah....
3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...
Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayRobot
Nah....
3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...
Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base
Dan
oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os .
oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os .
I don't believe canvas has hardware acceleration, yet.
IE9 and Firefox builds with hardware acceleration provide similar performance....
So it'll take time before the two are equally good.
If you are developing for the iPhone, sometimes it's best to use css transforms and then merge the final image back into canvas, for best performance...tricky, eh?
Dan
P.S. Web dev is still a minefield, and will be for years to come...
I waiting for extremeskater and Teckstud to say "but Flash has got 90% of the market share, since 90% of market share is windows applications" That argument will not incorrect was always weak and open to attack, since mobile market is a completely different ball game.
Now MS have come out and indirectly supported Apple's way forward with concern to web support in terms of media content. Adobe I would be very worried concerning your flash product, since your growth was always dependent on support from MS and its massive marketshare in all levels of society.
It would just take one MS ad promoting IE9 with HTML5 support plus other new features and that would be nail in your coffin.
The Adobe CEO to say that OSX is the issue, guess what, that is clueless, dumbass argument which has now been trashed by MS, since MS where also reporting performance and stability issues with its windows operating system.
Another JS library is only going to further muddy the waters. We need a GUI based authoring environment so we have timeline based keyframes and tweening. ...
I think the point is that we need mature JS libraries to do just that, and they will come. Obviously it would be ideal if these are somewhat transparent to the creative talent creating the content and integrated into GUI tools, and this will come too. Coexisting with other JS content on the page can be handled by namespacing the library so that there aren't conflicts with other code.
IE6-crap, IE7-crap, IE-8 getting there, Vista-crap - Microsoft pull your socks up
iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad - No Flash but sold as full internet products. Apple has had a core of creatives that has relied on Adobe products in the print and web world. To turn their back on Adobe to create an App Store island could surely backfire. The web needs to be open source that promotes cross platform creativity. With the announcement of Android and ChromeOS Apple is burning its bridges and locking its doors. How many people out there use Adobe creative products? Flash is an excellent product and has been right up to the point where Steve 'apple is cash rich" Jobs says so. The future will be HTML5 & Flash - the user will decide by what content is on offer. Flash 10 will deliver excellent touch interfaces designed by creative groups and individuals who can use a synergy of Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Flex and Flash.
One thing to be sure of - Adobe Flash will not die. The gloves are off. Flash Apps stores for new mobile devices will be popping up and Apple customers will not be a part of it. Shame really.
hmm can i ask why mac fans are calling microsoft a me too company? Didnt apple release a smart phone after everybody else did? Didnt apple release an mp3 player after other companies created them ?
Didnt apple Use the mouse after xerox created it?
Come on Dont be hypocrites.
Also everybody always bashed microsoft for not supporting standards but when they do they get bashed as followers? Come on .
Microsoft has been helping in the creation of html 5 and has been touting it since 2007 so saying microsoft is following apple is wrong.
Microsoft agreeing with apple here is only a good thing. Means pages will start to look the same on safari and ie and will mean a better web for everybody .
Flash Player 10.1 on Nexus One runs circles over HTML5 Canvas on iPhone 3GS... Sad but true.
Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.
Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.
That's not true at all. Didn't you see the Microsoft Courier video?
Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.
How do you figure that? IE market share seems to be in relative free fall with a total market share of only 60% (Net Application and StatCounter) www.w3schools.com's states paint an even grimmer picture with IE 6 through 8 only having a 33.4% of the market with FireFox king of the heap at 46.4%.
Comments
That's amazing! I look at Android's API and it's sparse by comparison to the iPhone OS API.
What sorts of stuff are you referring to specifically?
As evidence? My Mac IIsi (20 MHz PPC) opened apps in a few seconds and did most tasks with little or no significant delay. My iMac (2,800 MHz with 2 processors and 100 times the RAM and dramatically faster GPU) also opens apps in a few seconds.
I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.
I totally agree but the IIsi was way pre PPC - it was a Motorola CISC 68020 IIRC. Weird little machine with 1 sideways Nubus slot I think. We had a couple at school.
But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.
Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.
But that's exactly the point. The user experience hasn't changed all that much in 20 years. Apps still take a couple of seconds to launch. You can still work in real time, but if you do anything really heavy duty, it slows down.
Granted, I'm now working on a 1900x1200 screen at millions of colors vs 1024x768 back then, but the point is that you can choose almost any two years in computer history and software CPU demand has kept pace with CPU power. If your app doesn't work well today, thinking that's OK because future computers will be faster is a lousy strategy.
That's a very "chicken or the egg" question.
As a developer, i can see where most of this effect comes from, so let me explain..
Most programmers working with compiled code compile it on their own workstations rather than an external server. Thus, to speed up compiling, they tend to buy the bleeding edge hardware an average user either can not afford, or will not buy until his current machine fails in a year or longer.
So, the developer judges app performance based on performance he gets with his top-of-the-line hardware, and not the present level of average hardware in use.
Then, in time, when that app version gains wide distribution, hardware will have caught up to some degree, so users are not too vocal with their complaints.
Dan
Is it just me or is this guy on every thread?
Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.
The most exciting part about IE9 for me is the DOM level 3 support for JS, which is what really allows JavaScript to do anything even remotely like Flash and what most people mean when they say HTML5 is replacing Flash. For those of you who care about semantics, HTML5 is NOT replacing Flash, HTML/JS/AJAX/CSS is. And the most critical part of that puzzle is JS which has been a nightmare to develop with any kind of consistency across browsers until recently (webkit / html5) and is still being held up by IE8.
All these examples you see going around with fancy HTML5 + JS implementations are only running well on webkit browsers which basically means they are useless in the real world. IE9 however will finally bring MS into the present day and hopefully change all that. Now if we could only get the corporate world to abandon IE7 and XP we could really free the web.
Ok nevermind: you did say "abandon xp"
But i doubt they will be willing to upgrade that much hardware in such a poor economy...
-------
Keep dreaming..... about IE9.
The problem is that only Vista and Windows 7 support IE9.
But there are netbooks sold as we speak that run only XP.
The corporate network machines that are running IE6 right now are XP.
The only people that will get IE9 for XP is the hackers willing to put the time and effort to upgrade XP to DirectX 11, and patch the installer to ignore other issues....that is, if IE 9 isn't using some other new API that is completely tied to Vista/7....
So...Flash and old IE bugs will get at least another 5 year stay of execution
Sad, i know..
Dan
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
Nah....
3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...
Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base
Dan
so....if flash is dying like this, and 3 major browsers have already moved to html5, will browsers like firefox die too? lol
i have tested both ogg and h264, and i like mainconcepts(i think it squeezes in a bit more quality more than apples, but very tiny) h264 better than anything ogg produces.
Nah....
3d party plugins will enable Firefox and Opera to render video tags containing h264...
Of course, Flash will continue to thrive on the still-decent-sized XP+IE8 user base
Dan
oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os
oh and for a side note, if anyone has used flash 10.1 rc2 or flash GALA(if you mac has anything above a nvidia 9400gtm), you would have noticed flash is faster than html5 canvas by a hell of a lot. but html5 is still in development also......so i guess for now i'll combine html5 and flash on my websites where needed to achieve the fastest performance possible with the least amount of cpu usage. but anything viewed on the iphone os(or anything without flash), the flash will be replaced by something just for the iphone os
I don't believe canvas has hardware acceleration, yet.
IE9 and Firefox builds with hardware acceleration provide similar performance....
So it'll take time before the two are equally good.
If you are developing for the iPhone, sometimes it's best to use css transforms and then merge the final image back into canvas, for best performance...tricky, eh?
Dan
P.S. Web dev is still a minefield, and will be for years to come...
I waiting for extremeskater and Teckstud to say "but Flash has got 90% of the market share, since 90% of market share is windows applications" That argument will not incorrect was always weak and open to attack, since mobile market is a completely different ball game.
Now MS have come out and indirectly supported Apple's way forward with concern to web support in terms of media content. Adobe I would be very worried concerning your flash product, since your growth was always dependent on support from MS and its massive marketshare in all levels of society.
It would just take one MS ad promoting IE9 with HTML5 support plus other new features and that would be nail in your coffin.
The Adobe CEO to say that OSX is the issue, guess what, that is clueless, dumbass argument which has now been trashed by MS, since MS where also reporting performance and stability issues with its windows operating system.
Another JS library is only going to further muddy the waters. We need a GUI based authoring environment so we have timeline based keyframes and tweening. ...
I think the point is that we need mature JS libraries to do just that, and they will come. Obviously it would be ideal if these are somewhat transparent to the creative talent creating the content and integrated into GUI tools, and this will come too. Coexisting with other JS content on the page can be handled by namespacing the library so that there aren't conflicts with other code.
http://vimeo.com/10553088
Flash Player 10.1 on Nexus One runs circles over HTML5 Canvas on iPhone 3GS... Sad but true.
iPhone, iPod Touch, iPad - No Flash but sold as full internet products. Apple has had a core of creatives that has relied on Adobe products in the print and web world. To turn their back on Adobe to create an App Store island could surely backfire. The web needs to be open source that promotes cross platform creativity. With the announcement of Android and ChromeOS Apple is burning its bridges and locking its doors. How many people out there use Adobe creative products? Flash is an excellent product and has been right up to the point where Steve 'apple is cash rich" Jobs says so. The future will be HTML5 & Flash - the user will decide by what content is on offer. Flash 10 will deliver excellent touch interfaces designed by creative groups and individuals who can use a synergy of Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks, Dreamweaver, Flex and Flash.
One thing to be sure of - Adobe Flash will not die. The gloves are off. Flash Apps stores for new mobile devices will be popping up and Apple customers will not be a part of it. Shame really.
Didnt apple Use the mouse after xerox created it?
Come on Dont be hypocrites.
Also everybody always bashed microsoft for not supporting standards but when they do they get bashed as followers? Come on .
Microsoft has been helping in the creation of html 5 and has been touting it since 2007 so saying microsoft is following apple is wrong.
Microsoft agreeing with apple here is only a good thing. Means pages will start to look the same on safari and ie and will mean a better web for everybody .
"Following Apple co-founder Steve Jobs ..."
.
Yep, that pretty much sums up Microsoft
.
End of Story
.
-30-
it would do us all a lot of good if they killed IE instead, which does exist, unfortunately
I wish they had really done it. It is probably the slowest and most lame browser available today
Rosie Jonesronald Cruzag
Check out this cool video. In short: after Flash Player 10.1 comes out it'll be so much faster than HTML5...
http://vimeo.com/10553088
Flash Player 10.1 on Nexus One runs circles over HTML5 Canvas on iPhone 3GS... Sad but true.
Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.
Uh, if you don't mind, I'll wait to see what actually ships where 3rd party benchmarks can measure actual performance and battery life. Because, right now, that's just a video that could be anything.
That's not true at all. Didn't you see the Microsoft Courier video?
Oh, wait...
Never mind.
what do you expect from a me too company? a me too statement
lame...
Actually, when it comes to open standards, Microsoft has been anything but. This is cool news. Great news for web designers and developers.
Is it just me or is this guy on every thread?
Anyway, as for IE9 and HTML5 all I can say is THANK GOD. Unfortunately there are still millions (yes millions) of people still using Satan (IE 6), so even when IE 9 is released it will be awhile before we can move away from Flash. But MS and Jobs are both right theoretically, HTML + JS + CSS3 does == the death of Flash. But it won't be until IE9 over takes the older IE versions in global market share.
How do you figure that? IE market share seems to be in relative free fall with a total market share of only 60% (Net Application and StatCounter) www.w3schools.com's states paint an even grimmer picture with IE 6 through 8 only having a 33.4% of the market with FireFox king of the heap at 46.4%.