Let me be more clear. If Apple "sold" the iPhone along side its "peers" with the same "prices" and terms, in the same retail and online channels, on the same carriers, etc, I think those "peers" would be forced to close up shop the following day. Google had better thank their lucky starts there is no Verizon iPhone. In fact, they should be paying Apple to stay away.
With all due respect nothing you said changes my arguement. iPhones could sell on every carrier and there would still be demand for other phones. If what you say is actually true and the iPhone is what people really really want why do people buy oher phones from AT&T?
The simple fact is that not everyone desires an iPhone if only because it lacks a physical keyboard
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
First, last I checked, 70 did not equal 100. Second, if a physical keyboard is absolutely irrelevant why does apple make one for the ipad? Third, even withe the new BB OS there are no plans to completly drop the keyboard.
From the comments here, it seems like some of you have never touched an Android device.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
One valid criticism though is app quality. Android Market is just not there yet. But it's hard to say if it'll stay that way permanently. If you own an Android handset, you can actually see how quickly the Market is going. The choice of apps is getting better. And it's not just a quality control issue. A lot of the apps coming to Android Market are simply apps ported over from the iPhone. So quality isn't necessarily the problem. It's the rate at which they are getting ported over. A lot of the most popular apps aren't quite there yet.
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps? I think the big question mark is what Google is going to do with all its newer stuff. Will it make Google Maps Navigation available on the iPhone? Or will that be an Android exclusive? These apps are huge differentiators. Being able to pass on a GPS to get free turn-by-turn navigation in a phone they are buying is a big selling point for a lot of regular people. Heck, this is why some of the Nokia 'navigation' phones sell so well globally. And that's just maps. What will Google with other new features in the future?
On to some other points:
1) Apple doesn't care about market share.
Maybe for their other product lines. But not for the iPhone. Market share drives everything. They only have one phone. And that means only one way to popularize their OS. This can be a good thing. It drives them to make a really, really solid product obviously. Or it could have terrible
consequences. Remember what happened the last time they refused to license their OS? And If Android becomes the Windows of smartphones, guess what happens to all that developer talent that develops great apps for the iPhone.
2) Verizon needs Apple more than Apple needs Verizon.
We'll see. I don't see mass migration between Verizon and AT&T yet. But clearly, Android is taking off, because Apple chooses to restrict itself to AT&T. And it's not just Verizon. T-Mobile would have been easy for them. Nokia's upcoming N8 will be quint band with T-Mobile's AWS/Band IV spectrum. I am hard pressed to believe Apple could not have pulled off the same thing.
Ultimately for most wireless customers, what matters is network quality and plans, not the handset per se. No matter how powerful an iPhone, it does not matter if the phone is not available on the best network in your region or the carrier that offers the price you want. A good example would be Canada. Our three national carriers and their discount brands all carry the iPhone. But there's a lot of folks like me passing on the iPhone. Why? Because we'd rather take up plans with the new entrants who have significantly lower prices. And they operate on AWS/Band IV. So I chose a Nexus One on Wind over an iPhone on Rogers.
Time will tell if this strategy pays off for Apple. If the rumours are true, then Apple is stuck with AT&T until 2012. That's a long time in the cellphone business. And that's a lot of customers who will be experience an Android handset by then. And they aren't going to be trying out a Droid/Milestone or a Hero. They'll be getting an X10, a Droid Incredible or EVO 4G. And even better handsets coming out over the next 2 years. We'll know in two years if getting that massive subsidy from AT&T was worthwhile for Apple in the long run. Personally, I think they should have at least opened it up to T-Mo this summer and then moved on Verizon next year. But hopefully Jobs is smarter than me!
I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os, is a "premium phone', or whatever thing to boast about.
So right! Just for example, if Windows users couldn't care less about installing security patches, why should Android OS users? If anything, because Android is open source, Android users should be safer than closed source Windows users... NOT.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
1. You need to realize that just because something works on YOUR phone doesn't mean it will work on every phone.
2. Furthermore, 2.1 is the latest version, yet you're claiming that it automatically notified you of an update and installed without difficulty? Since 2.1 is the latest version, you're lying. Or maybe you're trying to make us believe the same Google FUD that has been thrown around for so long.
3. Go back and read the thread about fragmentation and the fact that only a tiny number of Android phones have been updated to the latest version - with fragmentation being at the root of the problem.
So who do we believe? The thousands of Android phone owners who haven't upgraded because their is no upgrade available from their phone supplier or some anonymous person who's lying about the one issue we can verify? Hmmmmm.
I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os, is a "premium phone', or whatever thing to boast about.
Except for one thing. People like you are running bragging that Android phones run Flash. Ignoring the fact that it's a blatant lie and if you were honest you would say "Adobe says that they'll have a version out for Android some day", what's going to happen when those people try to run Flash and it won't run? After they scream about their stupid phones, they'll find someone who tells them to upgrade the OS. Then, after the can't find the OS upgrade because their carrier or handset maker never made it available, they'll scream some more.
If people don't upgrade their OS, then all (there are probably a few hundred, anyway) the (theoretically) Flash capable phones out there today are completely irrelevant.
Except for one thing. People like you are running bragging that Android phones run Flash. Ignoring the fact that it's a blatant lie and if you were honest you would say "Adobe says that they'll have a version out for Android some day", what's going to happen when those people try to run Flash and it won't run? After they scream about their stupid phones, they'll find someone who tells them to upgrade the OS. Then, after the can't find the OS upgrade because their carrier or handset maker never made it available, they'll scream some more.
If people don't upgrade their OS, then all (there are probably a few hundred, anyway) the (theoretically) Flash capable phones out there today are completely irrelevant.
I'm not really sure, what the hell this has to do with flash, but, amuse yourself I guess. Was that cathartic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
From the comments here, it seems like some of you have never touched an Android device.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
One valid criticism though is app quality. Android Market is just not there yet. But it's hard to say if it'll stay that way permanently. If you own an Android handset, you can actually see how quickly the Market is going. The choice of apps is getting better. And it's not just a quality control issue. A lot of the apps coming to Android Market are simply apps ported over from the iPhone. So quality isn't necessarily the problem. It's the rate at which they are getting ported over. A lot of the most popular apps aren't quite there yet.
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps? I think the big question mark is what Google is going to do with all its newer stuff. Will it make Google Maps Navigation available on the iPhone? Or will that be an Android exclusive? These apps are huge differentiators. Being able to pass on a GPS to get free turn-by-turn navigation in a phone they are buying is a big selling point for a lot of regular people. Heck, this is why some of the Nokia 'navigation' phones sell so well globally. And that's just maps. What will Google with other new features in the future?
On to some other points:
1) Apple doesn't care about market share.
Maybe for their other product lines. But not for the iPhone. Market share drives everything. They only have one phone. And that means only one way to popularize their OS. This can be a good thing. It drives them to make a really, really solid product obviously. Or it could have terrible
consequences. Remember what happened the last time they refused to license their OS? And If Android becomes the Windows of smartphones, guess what happens to all that developer talent that develops great apps for the iPhone.
2) Verizon needs Apple more than Apple needs Verizon.
We'll see. I don't see mass migration between Verizon and AT&T yet. But clearly, Android is taking off, because Apple chooses to restrict itself to AT&T. And it's not just Verizon. T-Mobile would have been easy for them. Nokia's upcoming N8 will be quint band with T-Mobile's AWS/Band IV spectrum. I am hard pressed to believe Apple could not have pulled off the same thing.
Ultimately for most wireless customers, what matters is network quality and plans, not the handset per se. No matter how powerful an iPhone, it does not matter if the phone is not available on the best network in your region or the carrier that offers the price you want. A good example would be Canada. Our three national carriers and their discount brands all carry the iPhone. But there's a lot of folks like me passing on the iPhone. Why? Because we'd rather take up plans with the new entrants who have significantly lower prices. And they operate on AWS/Band IV. So I chose a Nexus One on Wind over an iPhone on Rogers.
Time will tell if this strategy pays off for Apple. If the rumours are true, then Apple is stuck with AT&T until 2012. That's a long time in the cellphone business. And that's a lot of customers who will be experience an Android handset by then. And they aren't going to be trying out a Droid/Milestone or a Hero. They'll be getting an X10, a Droid Incredible or EVO 4G. And even better handsets coming out over the next 2 years. We'll know in two years if getting that massive subsidy from AT&T was worthwhile for Apple in the long run. Personally, I think they should have at least opened it up to T-Mo this summer and then moved on Verizon next year. But hopefully Jobs is smarter than me!
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult.
The Nexus One is hardly representative of the diverse Android marketplace. What you describe is difficult for the vast majority of users to do, simply because the option to update is provided when a given carrier makes an update available for one's specific model of handset. Android updates aren't automatically available to users when Google releases the update and may never be made available.
Quote:
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums.
The statistics say Android fragmentation is the norm and prompt application of security fixes will be increasingly important.
Quote:
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps?
When my girlfriend flew out to see me in February (I'm in the DC area), she was pointing out to me all the people who were using iPhone. Frankly, it surprised and shocked me at how prevalent the iPhone is in my neck of the woods.
I lived in a "little red dot" country where chilli crabs cuisine is the spiced of things for foreigners! Here you can find a proliferation of iPhones and I really mean it. Just have to be in a crowded places like the subway/public transport or eateries or malls and you just scan around....you will find one...two...three... iPhones...any Andriods ..hmmmm rarely see half of it!
This was after the monopoly telco which ruled for a year ran out and in came 2 other telcos in the competition. So it does proves one thing.....users on the other telcos just drool over the iPhone from the start and once they can get their hands on one they will.
School going kids, be it deep pocket parents or not, can been seen with iPhone competing each other on games or showing off what ever nots its downloaded. Am sure their parents had enabled their accounts to buy from iTunes Apps store that automatically credit to their parent's credit card.....how convenient!
Oh, my Sugared is waiting for she next gen iPhone seriously after switching to a new job though tied down with a just renewed contract Samsung, about 4 months ago. She has been drooling over iPhone have not been the one year old iPod Touch G2 holding on.....
It would be nice if Vodafone Australia, HTC or Google whoever is responsible, would release an update for the Magic I sometimes use.
meh I'll just stick to iPhone's I'm looking forward to syncing across my 4.5GB of Apps to the new one when it's released.
Hey, when OS 4 is released do you think Advanced Task Killer will show up in the App store?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
In what way am I overestimating the process? That's exactly the process one goes through when an update is made available. The screen comes up, you press "Update Now", wait 5 - 10 minutes (depending on the size of the update) and it's done. All OTA. Without the need to plug the device in to another computer.
I was sitting at Denny's (cheap 2 am food is cheap 2 am food) when I did my 2.0.1 update. It was done in the time it took for our waitress to bring our drinks. My 2.0.1 to 2.1 update popped up when I was driving home from work one day.
And "rarely" is odd word to use here. Does Apple not fall under that category too? One major update a year with a few smaller patches, if needed, sprinkled throughout.
And I'm not apologizing for the manufacturers here. Us users, if anything, are the ones most vocal about the slow pace of the updates for the phones with custom UIs on them.
As Android gains in popularity and maturity, Google will most likely slow down on pace it's updating at and settle into a schedule more like Apples. Which in turn will allow the manufacturers the time they need. I'm willing to continue giving them the benefit of the doubt here.
This isn't surprising and as an Apple share holder I'm not worried at all. Apple's plan was never to dominate the market, but to sell to a niche market at high margins with a very profitable platform. iTunes, the app store, and the slow updating of the iPhone is working very well now, and even if they are losing market share, their sales are still increasing, and they are posting very high revenue.
As a consumer, having an open source platform dominate is really best, a win/win for all consumers. Even though RIM and Nokia are still on top, they haven't come out with anything innovative for a while, eventually iPhone and Android will over take them with Android taking a majority of the market share. By just looking at the rapid development of mobile hardware, were getting to a point were within the next year, all phones will be fast enough that the hardware differences of Android phones will not be a problem for developers. Program development will shift from App Stores (too controlled to be viable for much longer) to programs being available on the open web, similar to computers.
This is a much better scenario for consumers than the "App Store" system as the dominate phone will not horde all the developers, keeping it a competitive and innovative market. Its very possible Android will take a "windows-like" share of this market, except it will still be open source. Apple will still have a place in this market, similar to their computers too, and will still pull huge profit from their niche. Google and Apple simply have two different business models, Apple just got a head start.
Yeah I blame Apple for killing my sales skills, I've worked for years selling phones in retail people coming in and asking for iPhone's is turning me into an order taker, there's no real challenge any more, my sales skills are getting rusty.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac Voyer
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
Yeah I blame Apple for killing my sales skills, I've worked for years selling phones in retail people coming in and asking for iPhone's is turning me into an order taker, there's no real challenge any more, my sales skills are getting rusty.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
I'm guessing you don't work at a Verizon store lol.
I'm not really sure, what the hell this has to do with flash, but, amuse yourself I guess.
Let's see.
You wrote "I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os"
I explained exactly why consumers will care.
You posted the above inane drivel.
You can't even remember what you wrote over the course of a couple of hours? No wonder your posts look like they were written by a team of chimpanzees.
You wrote "I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os"
I explained exactly why consumers will care.
You posted the above inane drivel.
You can't even remember what you wrote over the course of a couple of hours? No wonder your posts look like they were written by a team of chimpanzees.
well that was intelligent. My welcome to appleinsider eh?
I didn't think anyone would get so insanely angry at my opinion, but hey, I really think less people care about that sort of thing in general.
No, I live in a country that dumped the non-multitasking, backward CDMA networks years ago.
Vodafone Australia, although Vodafone does have a 45% stake in Verizon Wireless and are getting pretty pissed at having nothing much to show for their investment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ogmudbone
I'm guessing you don't work at a Verizon store lol.
If it's a game of numbers, I don't think most people doubt that Android's going to win just as Windows wins the game of numbers in the PC wars. Yet, despite the fact that Android now has greater market share, a mass exodus hasn't begun from the App Store (a few rants from self-righteous developers don't represent the majority who are still developing for the App Store). Why? Because, and this is what anti-Apple fanboys never seem to understand, businesses and developers are more concerned about what will make them money than what has a greater market share. If they can't make as much money in the Android Market as they can in the App Store, do you think developers will really say to themselves, "Well, we're making no money, but Android has more market share, and that's what really matters to our shareholders. I'm a genius." If the Android Market can't become as profitable as the App Store is, then developers aren't going to leave the App Store, and though the iPhone might not be the top dog anymore (actually, it never was), I seriously doubt it'll ever be relegated to an insignificant minority as the Mac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
Yeah I blame Apple for killing my sales skills, I've worked for years selling phones in retail people coming in and asking for iPhone's is turning me into an order taker, there's no real challenge any more, my sales skills are getting rusty.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
I'm curious how many people with Verizon accounts go into Verizon and ask if they have the iPhone or ask when it's going to be released; On the other side, I'm curious how many people go to an AT&T store asking for the Droid, the Nexus One, or the ultimate "open phone," the OpenMoko.
No, I live in a country that dumped the non-multitasking, backward CDMA networks years ago.
Vodafone Australia, although Vodafone does have a 45% stake in Verizon Wireless and are getting pretty pissed at having nothing much to show for their investment.
CDMA is actually a more advanced technology than GSM, at least it terms of complexity. CDMA tends to be faster, with better call quality, and much better suited for countries like the US, where GSM is popular in Europe and the rest of the world. As for which is more future proof CDMA can do internet calls and data, as internet calls are data. So if internet phones like Skype become more popular voice plans can be phased out. Although the non-multitasking is a set back its not game breaking, and isn't that bad if you consider that the 3G coverage of a GSM network like AT&T over a large country like the US is vastly inadequate compared to the coverage of a CDMA network like Verizon. GSM does work well in a majority of the world though, but CDMA is most certainly not "backwards." The iPhone will need to support CDMA networks, specifically Verizon if it wants to ever achieve the top market share in the US, which Apple may not even want it too..
As Apple (or any other company) is almost never concerned about market share alone, but how they can make money. Apple can make more money off 10% of the smartphone market than Google can make off of 50% of the market. Both are different business models, and Apple have proven with the Macs, they can make industry leading profit without controlling a large portion of the market share.
CDMA is actually a more advanced technology than GSM, at least it terms of complexity. CDMA tends to be faster, with better call quality, and much better suited for countries like the US, where GSM is popular in Europe and the rest of the world. As for which is more future proof CDMA can do internet calls and data, as internet calls are data.
What are you talking about? Comparing old GSM/EDGE (2G) to CDMA EV-DO (3G)? Better comparison would be WCDMA (i.e. 3GPPs 3G) that is used by AT&T and TMO. In that case, the evolution path of WCDMA is far superior to CDMAs. Especially if you talk about data driven apps (WCDMA up to 180Mbps in the DL). LTE is an even further evolution to that with a clean path from WCDMA to LTE.
If you refer to CDMA being better suited for US because Verizon's coverage is so much better than AT&T, that's quite an assumption. WCDMA can also be used in the 850 and 900 MHz bands to increase cell sizes (thus coverage) especially in rural areas. Could it also be because of differing business models? Or Verizon using CDMA for longer?
Comments
Let me be more clear. If Apple "sold" the iPhone along side its "peers" with the same "prices" and terms, in the same retail and online channels, on the same carriers, etc, I think those "peers" would be forced to close up shop the following day. Google had better thank their lucky starts there is no Verizon iPhone. In fact, they should be paying Apple to stay away.
With all due respect nothing you said changes my arguement. iPhones could sell on every carrier and there would still be demand for other phones. If what you say is actually true and the iPhone is what people really really want why do people buy oher phones from AT&T?
The simple fact is that not everyone desires an iPhone if only because it lacks a physical keyboard
...why do people buy oher phones from AT&T?
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
First, last I checked, 70 did not equal 100. Second, if a physical keyboard is absolutely irrelevant why does apple make one for the ipad? Third, even withe the new BB OS there are no plans to completly drop the keyboard.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
One valid criticism though is app quality. Android Market is just not there yet. But it's hard to say if it'll stay that way permanently. If you own an Android handset, you can actually see how quickly the Market is going. The choice of apps is getting better. And it's not just a quality control issue. A lot of the apps coming to Android Market are simply apps ported over from the iPhone. So quality isn't necessarily the problem. It's the rate at which they are getting ported over. A lot of the most popular apps aren't quite there yet.
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps? I think the big question mark is what Google is going to do with all its newer stuff. Will it make Google Maps Navigation available on the iPhone? Or will that be an Android exclusive? These apps are huge differentiators. Being able to pass on a GPS to get free turn-by-turn navigation in a phone they are buying is a big selling point for a lot of regular people. Heck, this is why some of the Nokia 'navigation' phones sell so well globally. And that's just maps. What will Google with other new features in the future?
On to some other points:
1) Apple doesn't care about market share.
Maybe for their other product lines. But not for the iPhone. Market share drives everything. They only have one phone. And that means only one way to popularize their OS. This can be a good thing. It drives them to make a really, really solid product obviously. Or it could have terrible
consequences. Remember what happened the last time they refused to license their OS? And If Android becomes the Windows of smartphones, guess what happens to all that developer talent that develops great apps for the iPhone.
2) Verizon needs Apple more than Apple needs Verizon.
We'll see. I don't see mass migration between Verizon and AT&T yet. But clearly, Android is taking off, because Apple chooses to restrict itself to AT&T. And it's not just Verizon. T-Mobile would have been easy for them. Nokia's upcoming N8 will be quint band with T-Mobile's AWS/Band IV spectrum. I am hard pressed to believe Apple could not have pulled off the same thing.
Ultimately for most wireless customers, what matters is network quality and plans, not the handset per se. No matter how powerful an iPhone, it does not matter if the phone is not available on the best network in your region or the carrier that offers the price you want. A good example would be Canada. Our three national carriers and their discount brands all carry the iPhone. But there's a lot of folks like me passing on the iPhone. Why? Because we'd rather take up plans with the new entrants who have significantly lower prices. And they operate on AWS/Band IV. So I chose a Nexus One on Wind over an iPhone on Rogers.
Time will tell if this strategy pays off for Apple. If the rumours are true, then Apple is stuck with AT&T until 2012. That's a long time in the cellphone business. And that's a lot of customers who will be experience an Android handset by then. And they aren't going to be trying out a Droid/Milestone or a Hero. They'll be getting an X10, a Droid Incredible or EVO 4G. And even better handsets coming out over the next 2 years. We'll know in two years if getting that massive subsidy from AT&T was worthwhile for Apple in the long run. Personally, I think they should have at least opened it up to T-Mo this summer and then moved on Verizon next year. But hopefully Jobs is smarter than me!
I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os, is a "premium phone', or whatever thing to boast about.
So right! Just for example, if Windows users couldn't care less about installing security patches, why should Android OS users? If anything, because Android is open source, Android users should be safer than closed source Windows users... NOT.
/sarcasm
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
1. You need to realize that just because something works on YOUR phone doesn't mean it will work on every phone.
2. Furthermore, 2.1 is the latest version, yet you're claiming that it automatically notified you of an update and installed without difficulty? Since 2.1 is the latest version, you're lying. Or maybe you're trying to make us believe the same Google FUD that has been thrown around for so long.
3. Go back and read the thread about fragmentation and the fact that only a tiny number of Android phones have been updated to the latest version - with fragmentation being at the root of the problem.
So who do we believe? The thousands of Android phone owners who haven't upgraded because their is no upgrade available from their phone supplier or some anonymous person who's lying about the one issue we can verify? Hmmmmm.
I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os, is a "premium phone', or whatever thing to boast about.
Except for one thing. People like you are running bragging that Android phones run Flash. Ignoring the fact that it's a blatant lie and if you were honest you would say "Adobe says that they'll have a version out for Android some day", what's going to happen when those people try to run Flash and it won't run? After they scream about their stupid phones, they'll find someone who tells them to upgrade the OS. Then, after the can't find the OS upgrade because their carrier or handset maker never made it available, they'll scream some more.
If people don't upgrade their OS, then all (there are probably a few hundred, anyway) the (theoretically) Flash capable phones out there today are completely irrelevant.
Except for one thing. People like you are running bragging that Android phones run Flash. Ignoring the fact that it's a blatant lie and if you were honest you would say "Adobe says that they'll have a version out for Android some day", what's going to happen when those people try to run Flash and it won't run? After they scream about their stupid phones, they'll find someone who tells them to upgrade the OS. Then, after the can't find the OS upgrade because their carrier or handset maker never made it available, they'll scream some more.
If people don't upgrade their OS, then all (there are probably a few hundred, anyway) the (theoretically) Flash capable phones out there today are completely irrelevant.
I'm not really sure, what the hell this has to do with flash, but, amuse yourself I guess.
From the comments here, it seems like some of you have never touched an Android device.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult. Though I do understand that previous updates on some devices had carrier issues. My only complaint is that there's no auto-download function.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums. The vast, vast majority of apps work across all handsets. And where apps might only be compatible with later versions of Android, it's really not that different than what's happening on with Apple. Think of the upcoming OS and all the hardware changes. Is every Apple app here on in, going to be capable of running on an iPhone 3G? Heck, that phone can't even absorb all the new OS features. There's some fragmentation on Android to be sure. But it's no more the death of Android than upcoming fragmentation is the death of the iPhone ecosystem. In the mobile world, which develops at an incredible pace, some fragmentation is simply inevitable.
One valid criticism though is app quality. Android Market is just not there yet. But it's hard to say if it'll stay that way permanently. If you own an Android handset, you can actually see how quickly the Market is going. The choice of apps is getting better. And it's not just a quality control issue. A lot of the apps coming to Android Market are simply apps ported over from the iPhone. So quality isn't necessarily the problem. It's the rate at which they are getting ported over. A lot of the most popular apps aren't quite there yet.
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps? I think the big question mark is what Google is going to do with all its newer stuff. Will it make Google Maps Navigation available on the iPhone? Or will that be an Android exclusive? These apps are huge differentiators. Being able to pass on a GPS to get free turn-by-turn navigation in a phone they are buying is a big selling point for a lot of regular people. Heck, this is why some of the Nokia 'navigation' phones sell so well globally. And that's just maps. What will Google with other new features in the future?
On to some other points:
1) Apple doesn't care about market share.
Maybe for their other product lines. But not for the iPhone. Market share drives everything. They only have one phone. And that means only one way to popularize their OS. This can be a good thing. It drives them to make a really, really solid product obviously. Or it could have terrible
consequences. Remember what happened the last time they refused to license their OS? And If Android becomes the Windows of smartphones, guess what happens to all that developer talent that develops great apps for the iPhone.
2) Verizon needs Apple more than Apple needs Verizon.
We'll see. I don't see mass migration between Verizon and AT&T yet. But clearly, Android is taking off, because Apple chooses to restrict itself to AT&T. And it's not just Verizon. T-Mobile would have been easy for them. Nokia's upcoming N8 will be quint band with T-Mobile's AWS/Band IV spectrum. I am hard pressed to believe Apple could not have pulled off the same thing.
Ultimately for most wireless customers, what matters is network quality and plans, not the handset per se. No matter how powerful an iPhone, it does not matter if the phone is not available on the best network in your region or the carrier that offers the price you want. A good example would be Canada. Our three national carriers and their discount brands all carry the iPhone. But there's a lot of folks like me passing on the iPhone. Why? Because we'd rather take up plans with the new entrants who have significantly lower prices. And they operate on AWS/Band IV. So I chose a Nexus One on Wind over an iPhone on Rogers.
Time will tell if this strategy pays off for Apple. If the rumours are true, then Apple is stuck with AT&T until 2012. That's a long time in the cellphone business. And that's a lot of customers who will be experience an Android handset by then. And they aren't going to be trying out a Droid/Milestone or a Hero. They'll be getting an X10, a Droid Incredible or EVO 4G. And even better handsets coming out over the next 2 years. We'll know in two years if getting that massive subsidy from AT&T was worthwhile for Apple in the long run. Personally, I think they should have at least opened it up to T-Mo this summer and then moved on Verizon next year. But hopefully Jobs is smarter than me!
excellent post.
First with the updates. I don't know how it was on previous versions of Android. But on my Nexus One with Android 2.1, you get a notification in the window blind notification bar. Slide it down, click 'Okay' and you're done. I really don't understand why people find this difficult.
The Nexus One is hardly representative of the diverse Android marketplace. What you describe is difficult for the vast majority of users to do, simply because the option to update is provided when a given carrier makes an update available for one's specific model of handset. Android updates aren't automatically available to users when Google releases the update and may never be made available.
Next, the whole fragmentation thing. That's vastly over-exaggerated on these forums.
The statistics say Android fragmentation is the norm and prompt application of security fixes will be increasingly important.
But on the app side, the biggest ones I think are the Google Apps. They're the ones that people want for Android and the iPhone. Where would the iPhone be without Google search, youtube and Google Maps?
Google technologies are all replaceable.
When my girlfriend flew out to see me in February (I'm in the DC area), she was pointing out to me all the people who were using iPhone. Frankly, it surprised and shocked me at how prevalent the iPhone is in my neck of the woods.
I lived in a "little red dot" country where chilli crabs cuisine is the spiced of things for foreigners! Here you can find a proliferation of iPhones and I really mean it. Just have to be in a crowded places like the subway/public transport or eateries or malls and you just scan around....you will find one...two...three... iPhones...any Andriods ..hmmmm rarely see half of it!
This was after the monopoly telco which ruled for a year ran out and in came 2 other telcos in the competition. So it does proves one thing.....users on the other telcos just drool over the iPhone from the start and once they can get their hands on one they will.
School going kids, be it deep pocket parents or not, can been seen with iPhone competing each other on games or showing off what ever nots its downloaded. Am sure their parents had enabled their accounts to buy from iTunes Apps store that automatically credit to their parent's credit card.....how convenient!
Oh, my Sugared is waiting for she next gen iPhone seriously after switching to a new job though tied down with a just renewed contract Samsung, about 4 months ago. She has been drooling over iPhone have not been the one year old iPod Touch G2 holding on.....
meh I'll just stick to iPhone's I'm looking forward to syncing across my 4.5GB of Apps to the new one when it's released.
Hey, when OS 4 is released do you think Advanced Task Killer will show up in the App store?
In what way am I overestimating the process? That's exactly the process one goes through when an update is made available. The screen comes up, you press "Update Now", wait 5 - 10 minutes (depending on the size of the update) and it's done. All OTA. Without the need to plug the device in to another computer.
I was sitting at Denny's (cheap 2 am food is cheap 2 am food) when I did my 2.0.1 update. It was done in the time it took for our waitress to bring our drinks. My 2.0.1 to 2.1 update popped up when I was driving home from work one day.
And "rarely" is odd word to use here. Does Apple not fall under that category too? One major update a year with a few smaller patches, if needed, sprinkled throughout.
And I'm not apologizing for the manufacturers here. Us users, if anything, are the ones most vocal about the slow pace of the updates for the phones with custom UIs on them.
As Android gains in popularity and maturity, Google will most likely slow down on pace it's updating at and settle into a schedule more like Apples. Which in turn will allow the manufacturers the time they need. I'm willing to continue giving them the benefit of the doubt here.
As a consumer, having an open source platform dominate is really best, a win/win for all consumers. Even though RIM and Nokia are still on top, they haven't come out with anything innovative for a while, eventually iPhone and Android will over take them with Android taking a majority of the market share. By just looking at the rapid development of mobile hardware, were getting to a point were within the next year, all phones will be fast enough that the hardware differences of Android phones will not be a problem for developers. Program development will shift from App Stores (too controlled to be viable for much longer) to programs being available on the open web, similar to computers.
This is a much better scenario for consumers than the "App Store" system as the dominate phone will not horde all the developers, keeping it a competitive and innovative market. Its very possible Android will take a "windows-like" share of this market, except it will still be open source. Apple will still have a place in this market, similar to their computers too, and will still pull huge profit from their niche. Google and Apple simply have two different business models, Apple just got a head start.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
For the most part, they don't. Every time I go to an AT&T store, I make a point to ask about what's selling these days. The answer is always over 70% iPhone. The rest are phones that don't carry data plans.
As for keyboards, every manufacturer know for the keyboard is scrambling to produce a slate. Have you seen the new BB OS? It is all about the touchscreen, not the keyboard. The Palm fans on Precentral are clamoring for a virtual keyboard. Prominent Droid owners seem to never use the physical keyboard. Go ahead and build your business on a phone that does not look or function like an iPhone. Good luck with that.
Yeah I blame Apple for killing my sales skills, I've worked for years selling phones in retail people coming in and asking for iPhone's is turning me into an order taker, there's no real challenge any more, my sales skills are getting rusty.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
I'm guessing you don't work at a Verizon store lol.
I'm not really sure, what the hell this has to do with flash, but, amuse yourself I guess.
Let's see.
You wrote "I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os"
I explained exactly why consumers will care.
You posted the above inane drivel.
You can't even remember what you wrote over the course of a couple of hours? No wonder your posts look like they were written by a team of chimpanzees.
Let's see.
You wrote "I really don't think the majority of consumers give a rats behind whether their phone has the latest os"
I explained exactly why consumers will care.
You posted the above inane drivel.
You can't even remember what you wrote over the course of a couple of hours? No wonder your posts look like they were written by a team of chimpanzees.
well that was intelligent. My welcome to appleinsider eh?
I didn't think anyone would get so insanely angry at my opinion, but hey, I really think less people care about that sort of thing in general.
Sorry if that's soo offensive to you!
Vodafone Australia, although Vodafone does have a 45% stake in Verizon Wireless and are getting pretty pissed at having nothing much to show for their investment.
I'm guessing you don't work at a Verizon store lol.
Yeah I blame Apple for killing my sales skills, I've worked for years selling phones in retail people coming in and asking for iPhone's is turning me into an order taker, there's no real challenge any more, my sales skills are getting rusty.
btw our walls are festooned with advertising for other phones, there are sixteen Nokia's on display, yet people just walk in and ask for iPhones.
I still sell other phones but iPhone's just sell themselves, mainly through word of mouth.
I'm curious how many people with Verizon accounts go into Verizon and ask if they have the iPhone or ask when it's going to be released; On the other side, I'm curious how many people go to an AT&T store asking for the Droid, the Nexus One, or the ultimate "open phone," the OpenMoko.
No, I live in a country that dumped the non-multitasking, backward CDMA networks years ago.
Vodafone Australia, although Vodafone does have a 45% stake in Verizon Wireless and are getting pretty pissed at having nothing much to show for their investment.
CDMA is actually a more advanced technology than GSM, at least it terms of complexity. CDMA tends to be faster, with better call quality, and much better suited for countries like the US, where GSM is popular in Europe and the rest of the world. As for which is more future proof CDMA can do internet calls and data, as internet calls are data. So if internet phones like Skype become more popular voice plans can be phased out. Although the non-multitasking is a set back its not game breaking, and isn't that bad if you consider that the 3G coverage of a GSM network like AT&T over a large country like the US is vastly inadequate compared to the coverage of a CDMA network like Verizon. GSM does work well in a majority of the world though, but CDMA is most certainly not "backwards." The iPhone will need to support CDMA networks, specifically Verizon if it wants to ever achieve the top market share in the US, which Apple may not even want it too..
As Apple (or any other company) is almost never concerned about market share alone, but how they can make money. Apple can make more money off 10% of the smartphone market than Google can make off of 50% of the market. Both are different business models, and Apple have proven with the Macs, they can make industry leading profit without controlling a large portion of the market share.
CDMA is actually a more advanced technology than GSM, at least it terms of complexity. CDMA tends to be faster, with better call quality, and much better suited for countries like the US, where GSM is popular in Europe and the rest of the world. As for which is more future proof CDMA can do internet calls and data, as internet calls are data.
What are you talking about? Comparing old GSM/EDGE (2G) to CDMA EV-DO (3G)? Better comparison would be WCDMA (i.e. 3GPPs 3G) that is used by AT&T and TMO. In that case, the evolution path of WCDMA is far superior to CDMAs. Especially if you talk about data driven apps (WCDMA up to 180Mbps in the DL). LTE is an even further evolution to that with a clean path from WCDMA to LTE.
If you refer to CDMA being better suited for US because Verizon's coverage is so much better than AT&T, that's quite an assumption. WCDMA can also be used in the 850 and 900 MHz bands to increase cell sizes (thus coverage) especially in rural areas. Could it also be because of differing business models? Or Verizon using CDMA for longer?
With call quality sound wise, it's all about which codec is being used (GSM HR, GSM FR, AMR or WB-AMR). http://portal.etsi.org/stq/workshop2...uis_slides.pdf
Regs, Jarkko