Apple's iPhone 4 "Retina" display claims spark controversy

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  • Reply 101 of 178
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by milkmage View Post


    Jobs claims the iPhone held at 12 inches from your face has pixels too small to be resolved by your eye. Soneira, the display expert quoted in the magazine articles, disputes that. He uses the 0.6 arcmin resolution for the human eye (so we use the scale factor = 5730). Let?s use that and run the numbers.



    Strictly speaking, I think the presentation slide got the terms wrong, The slide at the presentation says 300 is the limit of the retina, when it should have been more specifically identified as an eye that can see 20/20. It sounds like Soneira was quoting retina numbers, and the figure used on the presentation should have been a little more specific on the whole eye system (the lens being the likely limiting factor), though they might have been trying to justify calling it a "Retina Display".
  • Reply 102 of 178
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Set up an iPhone 4 so it is viewed from 12".



    Display a 100x100 image on the screen.



    Remove some pixels.



    Repeat a few times to reduce the possibility of random guesses



    Dr. Raymond Soneira should easily be able to count the missing pixels if what he contends is true.
  • Reply 103 of 178
    sambirasambira Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nyctree View Post


    who the heck holds their phone just 12" from their eye. 18-20 more likey, so IT IS A RETINA DISPLAY



    Those that have even worse eyesight hold it 12 inches from their eyes. Who is this "expert" anyway? Sounds like someone that needs a hug.
  • Reply 104 of 178
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Set up an iPhone 4 so it is viewed from 12".



    Display a 100x100 image on the screen.



    Remove some pixels.



    Repeat a few times to reduce the possibility of random guesses



    Dr. Raymond Soneira should easily be able to count the missing pixels if what he contends is true.



    I did something like that, 36" and 48" measured using a tape measure, from a 100ppi screen, making it roughly equivalent to 300 and 400ppi at 12". I could still see the dots at both distance, it was pushing it though on the farther distance. That still makes me more excited to try this screen. Hopefully it pushes the computer display industry to denser screens, and hopefully the OS makers can get off their collective asses and get resolution independence into prime time.
  • Reply 105 of 178
    sambirasambira Posts: 90member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by milkmage View Post


    this is the first time i've heard of Soniera.. so I can't speak to his qualifications, but I know badastronomer is a really smart dude.



    and by the way.. this really is waaaaay to much math to be doing to determine whether or not the screen looks good. I don't care what it says on paper.. does it look better than the one I have now? yes or no is all i need to know. I don't necessarily care how or why



    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/ba...ne-resolution/



    So what does all this mean for the iPhone? First, here are the claims.



    Jobs claims the iPhone held at 12 inches from your face has pixels too small to be resolved by your eye. Soneira, the display expert quoted in the magazine articles, disputes that. He uses the 0.6 arcmin resolution for the human eye (so we use the scale factor = 5730). Let?s use that and run the numbers.



    Something 12 inches away means your eye can resolve dots that are bigger than



    12 inches / 5730 = 0.0021 inches



    So if the pixels on the iPhone are smaller than 0.0021 inches in size, then Jobs is right. Your eye won?t resolve them. If the pixels are bigger, Soneira is right, and your eye can resolve them.



    The actual iPhone 4 has 326 pixels per inch (the display is 960 pixels high, and about 2.9 inches in length). You have to flip that to get the size of the pixel in inches:



    1 / 326 = 0.0031 inches



    Uh oh! Things look bad for Jobs. The iPhone pixels are too big! At one foot away, your eye can resolve the pixels, and Jobs must be lying!



    Or is he? Remember, Soneira used the 0.6 arcmin resolution of the eye, but that?s for perfect eyesight. Most people don?t have perfect eyesight. I sure don?t. A better number for a typical person is more like 1 arcmin resolution, not 0.6. In fact, Wikipedia lists 20/20 vision as being 1 arcmin, so there you go.



    If I use 1 arcminute instead, the scale factor is smaller, about 3438. So let?s convert that to inches to see how small a pixel the human eye can resolve at a distance of one foot:



    12 inches / 3438 = 0.0035 inches



    Aha! This means that to a more average eye, pixels smaller than this are unresolved. Since the iPhone?s pixels are 0.0031 inches on a side, it works! Jobs is actually correct.



    [Note: in the articles about all this, they used units of pixels per inch, whereas I've used the size of the pixels themselves. You can flip all these numbers to convert. The iPhone4 has a resolution of 326 ppi (pixels per inch). Soleira says the eye can resolve 1 / 0.0021 = 477 ppi. However, normal vision can see at 1 / 0.0035 = 286 ppi. So the density of pixels in the iPhone 4 is safely higher than can be resolved by the normal eye, but lower than what can be resolved by someone with perfect vision.]



    So, the scientist is using the best case scenario for calculation versus a normal case? Given what my wife, who is a researcher, tells me about scientific results in research are done, I am not surprised.
  • Reply 106 of 178
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I don't know where you get that, that sounds like you're blowing smoke. I've had ordinary consumer scanners clearly resolve thousands of lines per inch, the fibers of the paper can look like logs. The best optical microscope can read down to 0.2 μm, I think that translates down to about 128,000dpi. Some types of lab equipment can detect atoms, which is far smaller.



    Even a simple hand-held magnifier will show the dots in the iPhone 4's display. It doesn't require anything fancy.



    However, few people read their iPhones with even a simple magnifier. With the unaided eye, it's either impossible (if you have 20/20 vision or worse) or difficult (if you have much better vision than average) to see the pixels.



    That's enough to say this is a great display.
  • Reply 107 of 178
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nyctree View Post


    who the heck holds their phone just 12" from their eye. 18-20 more likey, so IT IS A RETINA DISPLAY



    Well, I hold my iPhone around 20 cm from my eyes. Around 8". 20" would be around half a meter - no way.



    But of course, I'm myopic ... and before I had an operation for it I would have had to hold it 10 cm from my eyes unless I had my contact lenses on ...



    BTW, holding an iPhone half a meter away - don't you get tired in your arms?
  • Reply 108 of 178
    criscosocriscoso Posts: 23member
    This is starting to be a common thing from Apple, the half truth.

    It's like:



    "Macs are safer than PCs". Well, this is because Mac is a minor platform, so crackers are no interested on making virus for Mac, not because Mac is really safer than PCs.



    "iPad is the best device to surf the web". How can it be the best device when many webs can be seen correctly due to the lack of Flash support??



    "iPad lasts a day long". Well, here Apple redefines how log is a day.



    And so on...
  • Reply 109 of 178
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    So we are in agreement that 326 ppi are smaller pixels than someone with 20/20 vision can differentiate at 12" away?
  • Reply 110 of 178
    avidfcpavidfcp Posts: 381member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 2 cents View Post


    Yawn.



    Nutrasweet causes temp. short term memory loss

    French frys cause cancer

    margerine is better for you

    margerine is worse for you

    don't sit too close to the tv



    anyway, spoke to my dad the other day. He sounded fine. He was doing his walkibg rehab as he's still in the hospital.

    Today he is moved to Winchester hospital ICU for yet another infection.

    Guys. Girls. I just got married not to long ago. He has nit seen her as my wife or his daughter in law.

    I am not working and have nit seen my family since 2004.



    Please pray he gets well once and for all.

    That he doesn't lose the rehab he put into it.

    That he snd I can oneday go for a walk so I can tell him some things I've never told him and that this new joint venture I started that both two people want to be involved and that I can via GOD AND A MIRACLE get home to see my dad and family.

    Thanks.

    May it all come back to you. 100000000000 fold. Amen.
  • Reply 111 of 178
    povilaspovilas Posts: 473member
    Some of you are missing the point entirely. People will be going to the Apple stores and and they will see a very nice display. They won't be counting pixels and measuring the distance. This geek trolling is really unnecessary.
  • Reply 112 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bobborries View Post


    Apple gets nothing but hurt for creating the highest ppi for mobile devises,





    Naw, they are getting hurt for spouting pseudo-scientific nonsensical claims.
  • Reply 113 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Swift View Post


    At 366 dpi, only the very most acute instruments can detect the dots. In a lab.






    Are you sure about that? I have used 600 dpi printers since the late 1980's, and I can easily see the dots with my naked eye.
  • Reply 114 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rbryanh View Post


    Well, if we're actually going to take this pixel-picking click bait seriously...



    "...18 inches from the eye, much farther than standard use for a mobile handset."



    Curious, I picked up both my handheld and a tape measure, repeatedly, standing, sitting, walking... Invariably, I hold mine somewhere between 15"-22" from my face. Of course this is asinine, but good for a laugh. Try holding an object 12" from your eyes and reading 9 pt type.



    Steve is the guy who claims that people hold the device 10 to 12 inches from the eye. You disputing him?
  • Reply 115 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    Dr. Raymond Soneira should easily be able to count the missing pixels if what he contends is true.





    Easily? I don't think that conclusion is borne out by what he wrote.
  • Reply 116 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sambira View Post


    Those that have even worse eyesight hold it 12 inches from their eyes. Who is this "expert" anyway? Sounds like someone that needs a hug.



    Steve is the one who made the 12 inch claim.



    This expert is the one who showed that the iPhone touch sensor is more accurate than the touchscreens on any other popular cellphone. He's kind of a hero in the iPhone world.
  • Reply 117 of 178
    steviestevie Posts: 956member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    So we are in agreement that 326 ppi are smaller pixels than someone with 20/20 vision can differentiate at 12" away?



    I don't think so.



    "Soneira claims that the actual distinguishable resolution of the human retina is 477 ppi at a distance of 12 inches. "





    ISTM that this is a matter of fact and not opinion.
  • Reply 118 of 178
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stevie View Post


    Are you sure about that? I have used 600 dpi printers since the late 1980's, and I can easily see the dots with my naked eye.



    You just lost all credibility. The dots from a 600dpi printer overlap. The individual dots are about twice the size of 1/600 in across.
  • Reply 119 of 178
    sennensennen Posts: 1,472member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stevie View Post


    I don't think so.



    "Soneira claims that the actual distinguishable resolution of the human retina is 477 ppi at a distance of 12 inches. "





    ISTM that this is a matter of fact and not opinion.



    then it comes down to which expert's analysis one chooses to accept.
  • Reply 120 of 178
    basbas Posts: 2member
    Well, I decided I had to measure the resolution of my eyes myself, using the method on the wikipedia page mentioned above. I created two 1000 x 1000 images with one-pixel black lines, one horizontal and one vertical, using this simple Matlab script:



    Code:


    a = repmat([1 0],1000,500);

    imwrite(a ,'lines_vertical.png')

    imwrite(a','lines_horizontal.png')







    I put the images on my 24 inch LED Cinema Display, and on my 15 inch Macbook Pro. I measured the distance I had to move my eyes away from the display to make the lines disappear. The results were the same for the horizontal and vertical lines (both devices have square pixels so the numbers are the same as wel), so I only put the results for the vertical lines (horizontal resolution) in the table.



    I couldn't figure out how to make a table on the forum so the table is over here:

    Eye resolution comparison table



    You can download the images here and do the test for yourself:

    http://tauserver.wtb.tue.nl/basd/pics/lines/



    Make sure you put your viewer on "actual size" (in Preview.app this is command-0).



    I also put the Matlab script and the spreadsheet (OpenOffice format) in the directory in the second link, so you can play with it.



    It turns out that my eyes have a resolution of a little bit more than 0.6 arc minutes, using this test. The last column in the table gives the values for the iPhone 4. I used 304 mm, which is 12 inches, because that is what Steve Jobs said. This is 0.88 arc minutes, so I guess I will be able to see pixels when holding the iPhone4 at a 12" distance.



    I tend to use my iPhone at a distance of between 300 and 500 mm, depending on what I'm doing. I guess it's still an awesome display btw.
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