Fair enough. But then why would the middle east conflicts have anything to do with it? Just because of what revelations says? I mean Lev. says to touch the skin of a dead pig is a sin (football anyone) and Cor. says a woman is not to speak in church and that if she has a question she is to ask her husband in the privacy of her home.<hr></blockquote>
Well as far as that is concerned you can take specific quotes out of context (I see no verses or supporting verses so there is not context) and then say, "see, can't trust what the bible says." Or you can list the verses and the I can get back to you and show you other verses that either back what you are saying or show how that is not what was intended or is not valid anymore. As far as the touching a dead pig is concerned, the NT changed all that, I will have to lookup the direct refrence, Peter or Pual I believe wrote where it is not the item that makes you unclean, there is more to it than that.
[quote]Now, I'm not saying it's bad to believe in God. Just that it seems like so much of the bible has been screwed up over the millenia in translations. The King James version was written for him, afterall, to help control the people...<hr></blockquote>
There may have been some control issues in there, but King George did not translate the Bible. He had it translated by scholars who wanted to do it right. He really had no say in the translation that I am aware of. Sure, some used it for control, but if I recall correctly he wanted to read the bible himself rather than having to rely on those who knew latin reading it to him. (I know this is probably not entirely correct, it is a dim recollection)
[quote]I just don't know how wise it is to take anything out of the bible literally. I don't think God will "end the world". If he did, would he take out the whole planet? The whole universe? Just humans? I don't get why he would make a whole universe and then kill off humans just because the people in the middle east are fighting. Is the universe his petri dish and is this something he does with every life inhabited planet (assuming there are others - to give the universe a purpose, if 'He' created it just to destroy it next week).<hr></blockquote>
Well, assuming you are correct and there is life on other planets then I am sure God has it all worked out for them too. When he decides to end the world/universe and start over, he will deal with them too. However, I don't believe there are any aliens. Just my personal opinion though. My personal belief is, and you can disagree if you like, that the universe and the physical world is insignificant to God. What really matters is people, His creation. Sure, He created the world and said that it was good, but how much does a rock commune with God. Maybe I am wrong, but He is in it for us and the relationship we can have with Him.
[quote]Not trying to attack your beliefs. Just trying to discuss the original point of the topic which was the "general feel in religious and non-religious circles that the end of the world is near". (there's that confusing "end of the world" term again.)<hr></blockquote>
No, I appreciate your questions, really! Makes me think and mull over things I may not have thought about otherwise. I also want to make one last point. You asked why would God end the world based on some events in the Middle East...
I believe that God chose a small, relatively insignificant nation, Israel, and used them to show to people that he is really God. He knows what will happen, what has happened and what is happening. You can find paralells throughout the scripture for everything that has happened so far in regards to Isreal. Rather than speaking about the entire world, focus on one nation. And a small nation at that. That way there can be no doubt that wneh a prophecy is fulfilled, it is not mistakeable. One has been as far as i can tell. Israel has become a nation again. The next prophecies seem to speak of Jewish people returning to their homeland in droves. (this is happening now) Then it speaks of "when the almond tree blossoms". Many see this as a refrence to when one generation comes to maturity and a new generation comes into the new nation of Israel. When was Israel formed as a nation again? Now add up from there and you will see that we are just beginning into the next generation and the previous generation is fully matured. So, that is where people are coming to the conclusion that then next portion of scripture is going to come into play. Israel will become a "stumbling block" to the entire world. (sound familiar?) Then things begin to get interesting. There will be a treaty for peace established, 7 years of peace in return for land that Israel gives up. (Still sound familiar, this seems to possibly be in process right now)
I am not saying that this is coming to pass right now, but this is why there are people believe that the "end of the world" is near.
our Sun will swell to a Red Dwarf, then the outer layer will break off leaving just a white dwarf.
at least u got some of that right. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, you're right. I knew I should have tried to remember stuff from my astronomy class last year. White Dwarfs are cool. In some cases, they are entirely crystalline structures (think gigantic diamonds).
Yeah, you're right. I knew I should have tried to remember stuff from my astronomy class last year. White Dwarfs are cool. In some cases, they are entirely crystalline structures (think gigantic diamonds).</strong><hr></blockquote>
theyve gone through fusion completely into carbon, but some go further into oxygen. i think the coolest are the big stars that go through supernova and then phase into neutron stars.
theyve gone through fusion completely into carbon, but some go further into oxygen. i think the coolest are the big stars that go through supernova and then phase into neutron stars.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nah, those are only the second coolest. My personal favorites are the gigantic stars that have enough mass to go supernova and then collapse into black holes (although I forget off hand what the minimum mass required for that is)
Nah, those are only the second coolest. My personal favorites are the gigantic stars that have enough mass to go supernova and then collapse into black holes (although I forget off hand what the minimum mass required for that is)</strong><hr></blockquote>
they have to be at least 40 times the mass of our Sun.
yeah, i like those too, but those pulsars are just spectacular.
I believe that God chose a small, relatively insignificant nation, Israel, and used them to show to people that he is really God. He knows what will happen, what has happened and what is happening. You can find paralells throughout the scripture for everything that has happened so far in regards to Isreal. Rather than speaking about the entire world, focus on one nation. And a small nation at that. That way there can be no doubt that wneh a prophecy is fulfilled, it is not mistakeable. One has been as far as i can tell. Israel has become a nation again. The next prophecies seem to speak of Jewish people returning to their homeland in droves. (this is happening now) Then it speaks of "when the almond tree blossoms". Many see this as a refrence to when one generation comes to maturity and a new generation comes into the new nation of Israel. When was Israel formed as a nation again? Now add up from there and you will see that we are just beginning into the next generation and the previous generation is fully matured. So, that is where people are coming to the conclusion that then next portion of scripture is going to come into play. Israel will become a "stumbling block" to the entire world. (sound familiar?) Then things begin to get interesting. There will be a treaty for peace established, 7 years of peace in return for land that Israel gives up. (Still sound familiar, this seems to possibly be in process right now)
I am not saying that this is coming to pass right now, but this is why there are people believe that the "end of the world" is near.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is some real creepy stuff Noah. It looks like we might live to see the end of the world after all. It sure makes you think.
I don't mean to get this thread sidetracked, but while we're on the subject of Biblical Prophesy and the Middle East . . . Abraham had two sons: one illegitamate, Ishmael, and Isaac. When the angel of the LORD was speaking to Hagar (Abraham's 'maidservant'), the angel said, "...you will have a son. You shall name him Ishmael...and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers." Muslims trace their roots back to Ishmael, and Jews to Isaac. Hmmm . . . . Will there ever be peace in the Mid-East?
Back to the topic: Supposedly there is an asteroid scheduled to hit earth in the year 2880.
Hey Noah, you seem to take the Bible pretty literally, so what do you think about these passages:
Jesus said this according to Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1
[quote]Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.<hr></blockquote>
And Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[quote]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.<hr></blockquote>
These passages, taken literally, suggest that Jesus would come in the lifetime of those who knew him.
This to me is the problem with all of the many end-time predictions - up til now, they've had a 0% accuracy rate.
[quote]Originally posted by bauman:
<strong>Supposedly there is an asteroid scheduled to hit earth in the year 2880.</strong><hr></blockquote>Shit!
Well as long as I am dead, I really don't care, but the world will end when the universe expands to such a massive size that atoms are miles apart, and eventualy all matter sort of dissolves (It was in a Steven Baxter book, cool guy).
This was fulfilled when the disciples witnessed the Transfiguration, which was, in miniature, a preview of the kingdom, with the Lord appearing in a state of glory.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
<strong>"Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom."
This was fulfilled when the disciples witnessed the Transfiguration, which was, in miniature, a preview of the kingdom, with the Lord appearing in a state of glory.</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't think so. First, the transfiguration was "going," not "coming."
Second, in the context of the section, it's clear he's talking about the second coming, and nothing else. Matthew16:27 (the sentence before that passage), reads:
[quote]For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.<hr></blockquote>
In Mark 8:38, the sentence right before the other reference, it says:
[quote]For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.<hr></blockquote>Again, I believe it's clear he's talking about the second coming. At the least, you have to do some twisting to make it something else.
[quote]"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I don't see how this last passage implies that Jesus would come back in the lifetime of those who knew him.<hr></blockquote>Well, it says "we which are alive and remain..." Who does he mean by we? You could say he means "we" very generically, as in "all Christians," which could then include future people. But again that doesn't fit in the context. This chapter was a letter that Paul wrote to a specific group of people. He goes on in the next paragraph to refer even more specifically to how they should watch and wait for him to come. [quote]Please show me where you think the Bible has been wrong on what has/will transpire.<hr></blockquote>I wasn't referring to the Bible with that - I was referring to all the countless predictions through the years.
I think GolferGuy got it right. This happened at the transfiguration. I don't think any twisitng is necessary as Jesus had repeatedly stated that His kingdom was not of this world.
Another verse in Mark 9:1 reads:
And He said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdome of God come with power."
Reading my study bible they even take a different tact though. They say that this happened on the day of Pentecost when Jesus baptized his followers with the Holy Spirit and power thus bringing his spiritual kingdom into power. So putting it in context, perhaps you are a bit too narrowly focused?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Heh, off topic, but i am wearing a t-shirt right now that has a picture of the space shuttle and an astronaut doing a space walk. Coming into the picture is a giant trumpet and the words "Houston, we have a problem!!!" Part of this verse is at the bottom of the picture.
Anyhow, back to the question at hand.
[quote]These passages, taken literally, suggest that Jesus would come in the lifetime of those who knew him.<hr></blockquote>
This is where bilblical interpretation gets tougher. You cannot just pull one verse or two out of context and then assume that you got the whole picture. When placed alongside several other verses you find that Jesus so much as states that all the Apostles would die prematurely and not live to see his second coming. This is not unlike those who believed that one of the Apostles would never die because Jesus said, "What is is to you if I let him live to see the second coming." The Apostle died, prematurely, but it does not stop some from saying Jesus promised he would live until the second coming.
Oh, after reading a bit I found that Jesus himself spoke the words you quoting as well. In Matthew 24:30-31 it is nearly identical passage. In context he is definately talking of the end of the age. He is most certainly speaking of a time way off as he speaks of the temple being totally destroyed and of false Christs, the Apocolypse, the Abomination that causes desecration in the temple, the gospel being preached to the entire world. And so on. The Apostles were good, but there was no way for them to preach to the entire world. One interesting tidbit on this, after September 11th Billy Graham (or was it Franklin?) was asked to speak and it was televised around the world. Even in countries such as China that would normally block such transmissions. And the whole world was told the Gospel story and how to become a christian. Could this fulfill the prophecy in question? Maybe, maybe not. Something that those telling me that we are in the end times use as further proof that the end is near.
[quote]This to me is the problem with all of the many end-time predictions - up til now, they've had a 0% accuracy rate.<hr></blockquote>
Let me leave you with one last verse which I think sums this up nicely:
Matthew 24:36-39
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
[quote]<strong>heh, off topic, but i am wearing a t-shirt right now that has a picture of the space shuttle and an astronaut doing a space walk. Coming into the picture is a giant trumpet and the words "Houston, we have a problem!!!" Part of this verse is at the bottom of the picture.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have you visited that site Noah? How does that stuff sound to you? Does Pastor Harry sound like a crackpot? Or does some of what he says make sense? I do have to agree with him on the Falwell and Roberts stuff. False Prophets or not, those guys are bad. Enquiring minds want to know.
He is most certainly speaking of a time way off as he speaks of the temple being totally destroyed and of false Christs, the Apocolypse, the Abomination that causes desecration in the temple, the gospel being preached to the entire world.
I read somewhere that the abomination represents the UN...
Comments
<strong> The Sun may even go Nova/Supernova...that would really finish things off!</strong><hr></blockquote>
our Suns too small fer a supernova.
and only binary white dwarfs can go Nova.
our Sun will swell to a Red Dwarf, then the outer layer will break off leaving just a white dwarf.
at least u got some of that right.
Fair enough. But then why would the middle east conflicts have anything to do with it? Just because of what revelations says? I mean Lev. says to touch the skin of a dead pig is a sin (football anyone) and Cor. says a woman is not to speak in church and that if she has a question she is to ask her husband in the privacy of her home.<hr></blockquote>
Well as far as that is concerned you can take specific quotes out of context (I see no verses or supporting verses so there is not context) and then say, "see, can't trust what the bible says." Or you can list the verses and the I can get back to you and show you other verses that either back what you are saying or show how that is not what was intended or is not valid anymore. As far as the touching a dead pig is concerned, the NT changed all that, I will have to lookup the direct refrence, Peter or Pual I believe wrote where it is not the item that makes you unclean, there is more to it than that.
[quote]Now, I'm not saying it's bad to believe in God. Just that it seems like so much of the bible has been screwed up over the millenia in translations. The King James version was written for him, afterall, to help control the people...<hr></blockquote>
There may have been some control issues in there, but King George did not translate the Bible. He had it translated by scholars who wanted to do it right. He really had no say in the translation that I am aware of. Sure, some used it for control, but if I recall correctly he wanted to read the bible himself rather than having to rely on those who knew latin reading it to him. (I know this is probably not entirely correct, it is a dim recollection)
[quote]I just don't know how wise it is to take anything out of the bible literally. I don't think God will "end the world". If he did, would he take out the whole planet? The whole universe? Just humans? I don't get why he would make a whole universe and then kill off humans just because the people in the middle east are fighting. Is the universe his petri dish and is this something he does with every life inhabited planet (assuming there are others - to give the universe a purpose, if 'He' created it just to destroy it next week).<hr></blockquote>
Well, assuming you are correct and there is life on other planets then I am sure God has it all worked out for them too. When he decides to end the world/universe and start over, he will deal with them too. However, I don't believe there are any aliens. Just my personal opinion though. My personal belief is, and you can disagree if you like, that the universe and the physical world is insignificant to God. What really matters is people, His creation. Sure, He created the world and said that it was good, but how much does a rock commune with God. Maybe I am wrong, but He is in it for us and the relationship we can have with Him.
[quote]Not trying to attack your beliefs. Just trying to discuss the original point of the topic which was the "general feel in religious and non-religious circles that the end of the world is near". (there's that confusing "end of the world" term again.)<hr></blockquote>
No, I appreciate your questions, really! Makes me think and mull over things I may not have thought about otherwise. I also want to make one last point. You asked why would God end the world based on some events in the Middle East...
I believe that God chose a small, relatively insignificant nation, Israel, and used them to show to people that he is really God. He knows what will happen, what has happened and what is happening. You can find paralells throughout the scripture for everything that has happened so far in regards to Isreal. Rather than speaking about the entire world, focus on one nation. And a small nation at that. That way there can be no doubt that wneh a prophecy is fulfilled, it is not mistakeable. One has been as far as i can tell. Israel has become a nation again. The next prophecies seem to speak of Jewish people returning to their homeland in droves. (this is happening now) Then it speaks of "when the almond tree blossoms". Many see this as a refrence to when one generation comes to maturity and a new generation comes into the new nation of Israel. When was Israel formed as a nation again? Now add up from there and you will see that we are just beginning into the next generation and the previous generation is fully matured. So, that is where people are coming to the conclusion that then next portion of scripture is going to come into play. Israel will become a "stumbling block" to the entire world. (sound familiar?) Then things begin to get interesting. There will be a treaty for peace established, 7 years of peace in return for land that Israel gives up. (Still sound familiar, this seems to possibly be in process right now)
I am not saying that this is coming to pass right now, but this is why there are people believe that the "end of the world" is near.
<strong>
our Suns too small fer a supernova.
and only binary white dwarfs can go Nova.
our Sun will swell to a Red Dwarf, then the outer layer will break off leaving just a white dwarf.
at least u got some of that right.
Yeah, you're right. I knew I should have tried to remember stuff from my astronomy class last year. White Dwarfs are cool. In some cases, they are entirely crystalline structures (think gigantic diamonds).
<strong>
Yeah, you're right. I knew I should have tried to remember stuff from my astronomy class last year. White Dwarfs are cool. In some cases, they are entirely crystalline structures (think gigantic diamonds).</strong><hr></blockquote>
theyve gone through fusion completely into carbon, but some go further into oxygen. i think the coolest are the big stars that go through supernova and then phase into neutron stars.
<strong>
theyve gone through fusion completely into carbon, but some go further into oxygen. i think the coolest are the big stars that go through supernova and then phase into neutron stars.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nah, those are only the second coolest. My personal favorites are the gigantic stars that have enough mass to go supernova and then collapse into black holes (although I forget off hand what the minimum mass required for that is)
<strong>
Nah, those are only the second coolest. My personal favorites are the gigantic stars that have enough mass to go supernova and then collapse into black holes (although I forget off hand what the minimum mass required for that is)</strong><hr></blockquote>
they have to be at least 40 times the mass of our Sun.
yeah, i like those too, but those pulsars are just spectacular.
Don't you know those are just holes poked into the darkness?
duuuuuuh
<strong>
I believe that God chose a small, relatively insignificant nation, Israel, and used them to show to people that he is really God. He knows what will happen, what has happened and what is happening. You can find paralells throughout the scripture for everything that has happened so far in regards to Isreal. Rather than speaking about the entire world, focus on one nation. And a small nation at that. That way there can be no doubt that wneh a prophecy is fulfilled, it is not mistakeable. One has been as far as i can tell. Israel has become a nation again. The next prophecies seem to speak of Jewish people returning to their homeland in droves. (this is happening now) Then it speaks of "when the almond tree blossoms". Many see this as a refrence to when one generation comes to maturity and a new generation comes into the new nation of Israel. When was Israel formed as a nation again? Now add up from there and you will see that we are just beginning into the next generation and the previous generation is fully matured. So, that is where people are coming to the conclusion that then next portion of scripture is going to come into play. Israel will become a "stumbling block" to the entire world. (sound familiar?) Then things begin to get interesting. There will be a treaty for peace established, 7 years of peace in return for land that Israel gives up. (Still sound familiar, this seems to possibly be in process right now)
I am not saying that this is coming to pass right now, but this is why there are people believe that the "end of the world" is near.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is some real creepy stuff Noah. It looks like we might live to see the end of the world after all. It sure makes you think.
<strong>I think you're both nerds.
Don't you know those are just holes poked into the darkness?
duuuuuuh</strong><hr></blockquote>
keep yer ignorance in yer so called "classrooms."
Back to the topic: Supposedly there is an asteroid scheduled to hit earth in the year 2880.
<a href="http://www.escape666.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.escape666.com/</a>;
Doing a search on google for 'armageddon prophecy' is fun.
Jesus said this according to Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1
[quote]Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.<hr></blockquote>
And Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[quote]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.<hr></blockquote>
These passages, taken literally, suggest that Jesus would come in the lifetime of those who knew him.
This to me is the problem with all of the many end-time predictions - up til now, they've had a 0% accuracy rate.
[quote]Originally posted by bauman:
<strong>Supposedly there is an asteroid scheduled to hit earth in the year 2880.</strong><hr></blockquote>Shit!
[ 04-11-2002: Message edited by: BRussell ]</p>
<strong>I think you're both nerds.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never denied that.
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<hr></blockquote>
This was fulfilled when the disciples witnessed the Transfiguration, which was, in miniature, a preview of the kingdom, with the Lord appearing in a state of glory.
[quote] And Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<hr></blockquote>
I don't see how this last passage implies that Jesus would come back in the lifetime of those who knew him.
[quote] This to me is the problem with all of the many end-time predictions - up til now, they've had a 0% accuracy rate.
<hr></blockquote>
Please show me where you think the Bible has been wrong on what has/will transpire.
<strong>"Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom."
This was fulfilled when the disciples witnessed the Transfiguration, which was, in miniature, a preview of the kingdom, with the Lord appearing in a state of glory.</strong><hr></blockquote>I don't think so. First, the transfiguration was "going," not "coming."
Second, in the context of the section, it's clear he's talking about the second coming, and nothing else. Matthew16:27 (the sentence before that passage), reads:
[quote]For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.<hr></blockquote>
In Mark 8:38, the sentence right before the other reference, it says:
[quote]For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man also will be ashamed of him, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.<hr></blockquote>Again, I believe it's clear he's talking about the second coming. At the least, you have to do some twisting to make it something else.
[quote]"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
I don't see how this last passage implies that Jesus would come back in the lifetime of those who knew him.<hr></blockquote>Well, it says "we which are alive and remain..." Who does he mean by we? You could say he means "we" very generically, as in "all Christians," which could then include future people. But again that doesn't fit in the context. This chapter was a letter that Paul wrote to a specific group of people. He goes on in the next paragraph to refer even more specifically to how they should watch and wait for him to come. [quote]Please show me where you think the Bible has been wrong on what has/will transpire.<hr></blockquote>I wasn't referring to the Bible with that - I was referring to all the countless predictions through the years.
Hey Noah, you seem to take the Bible pretty literally, so what do you think about these passages:
Jesus said this according to Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<hr></blockquote>
I think GolferGuy got it right. This happened at the transfiguration. I don't think any twisitng is necessary as Jesus had repeatedly stated that His kingdom was not of this world.
Another verse in Mark 9:1 reads:
And He said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdome of God come with power."
Reading my study bible they even take a different tact though. They say that this happened on the day of Pentecost when Jesus baptized his followers with the Holy Spirit and power thus bringing his spiritual kingdom into power. So putting it in context, perhaps you are a bit too narrowly focused?
[quote]And Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<hr></blockquote>
Heh, off topic, but i am wearing a t-shirt right now that has a picture of the space shuttle and an astronaut doing a space walk. Coming into the picture is a giant trumpet and the words "Houston, we have a problem!!!"
Anyhow, back to the question at hand.
[quote]These passages, taken literally, suggest that Jesus would come in the lifetime of those who knew him.<hr></blockquote>
This is where bilblical interpretation gets tougher. You cannot just pull one verse or two out of context and then assume that you got the whole picture. When placed alongside several other verses you find that Jesus so much as states that all the Apostles would die prematurely and not live to see his second coming. This is not unlike those who believed that one of the Apostles would never die because Jesus said, "What is is to you if I let him live to see the second coming." The Apostle died, prematurely, but it does not stop some from saying Jesus promised he would live until the second coming.
Oh, after reading a bit I found that Jesus himself spoke the words you quoting as well. In Matthew 24:30-31 it is nearly identical passage. In context he is definately talking of the end of the age. He is most certainly speaking of a time way off as he speaks of the temple being totally destroyed and of false Christs, the Apocolypse, the Abomination that causes desecration in the temple, the gospel being preached to the entire world. And so on. The Apostles were good, but there was no way for them to preach to the entire world. One interesting tidbit on this, after September 11th Billy Graham (or was it Franklin?) was asked to speak and it was televised around the world. Even in countries such as China that would normally block such transmissions. And the whole world was told the Gospel story and how to become a christian. Could this fulfill the prophecy in question? Maybe, maybe not. Something that those telling me that we are in the end times use as further proof that the end is near.
[quote]This to me is the problem with all of the many end-time predictions - up til now, they've had a 0% accuracy rate.<hr></blockquote>
Let me leave you with one last verse which I think sums this up nicely:
Matthew 24:36-39
No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
[ 04-12-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Look out! It's <a href="http://www.escape666.com/SpaceChrist.htm"; target="_blank">space christ!</a>
Have you visited that site Noah? How does that stuff sound to you? Does Pastor Harry sound like a crackpot? Or does some of what he says make sense? I do have to agree with him on the Falwell and Roberts stuff. False Prophets or not, those guys are bad. Enquiring minds want to know.
[ 04-12-2002: Message edited by: seb ]</p>
I read somewhere that the abomination represents the UN...