Of course not everyone is objective as me. But, because of my personal (yes, limited) experience with the issue, and reading material from people that are a lot more knowledgeable about the inner working of cell phones then me, this obviously appears to be an issue that is not normal. Despite Apple's claims of it being normal. Which in itself is disappointing.
Interesting revelation. So even though you appear to be a rational and objective person too, you have a dog in this fight. You might not be truly objective as you normally would be, if you did not own Apple stock, or have a deep love for them.
That's no revelation! I post it often so that people understand my perspective. I do have a dog in this fight and a set of experiences that have served me well. No apologies!
I don't think that having a significant (to me) position in AAPL automatically makes me irrational and non-objective,
If I think that Apple is working against my interests, hopefully I am objective enough to cover my assets!
My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.
That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.
Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider
This forum has a lot of active posters that, like yourself, join AI to post to a specific topic.
Yours appears to to spread negative information (with no substantiation) about the iPhone 4.
I have an iPhone and am not experiencing the problem.
Sorry, but I gotta' ask you too:
-- Do you own an iPhone 4?
-- Did You buy if for personal use?
-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?
.
Fair enough. I'd like you to reference the "negative info (with no substantiation)" about the iPhone that you allege I "spread".
In answer to your three questions...
No, I don't and wouldn't be in a position to buy until they're released here, probably in August on Vodafone.
Yes, it would be for my personal use.
Obviously I can't be experiencing the problem if I don't have an iP4.
My current phone is a Nokia E63, and my wife has an iPhone 3Gs. In my work I use a MacBook, an iMac 24 and a MacPro G5. My kids have 4 iPods between them. (I'm too old to get away with white earbuds and headbanging at traffic lights).
This topic got me posting because 1) I'm interested in an iP4 as replacement for my E63 and ultimately 2) because of SJ's dismissive remark about "holding it that way".
Without that I'd still be lurking.
Right now, the reception issues are giving me pause so I'll watch developments with interest. If it's a design issue, then I surely won't be buying this model. If it's software, or if it's a manufacturing hiccup, and providing it's sorted, the an iP4 will be my next phone.
I'm glad you're not experiencing the problem yourself though. Perhaps you got lucky?
"Tell me how you know that "The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone" is a valid logical assumption."
Because they are telling us that their phone either has or doesn't have issues. That is a report. If the poster does not have a phone, how can he report it's status? I don't understand why you find that difficult to comprehend.
"Since I have no knowledge of your history, ability, biases-- I naturally treat your opinions with some skepticism-- I don't know you, yet, and I don't need to treat your unsupported options and assertion with equal weight as those who have a reasoned track record (whether I agree with it or not!)."
I'm not sure I'd agree that "naturally" is the right phrase. Seems to me the natural thing is to give somebody the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. But then, your society there is no doubt different to mine.
"Who are you? Why are you making [mostly] negative posts to an Apple forum? Do you have an agenda?"
I'm contributing posts on an issue that, if true, casts the iP4 in a poor light. You think I should pretend that there's no issue and make soothing supportive posts instead maybe? Even though I believe that the iP4 has flawed reception?
"Back up your assertions with some substantiation, then we can have a reasoned discussion."
Which assertions exactly would you like me to back up?
"No strawman-- show me 100 unique reports"
You were the one claiming "a single story repeated 1,000 times does not mean there are 1,000 people experiencing the issue. Nor, do 50 stories repeated 200 times" so presumably you have quantifiable evidence (your standard) to back up your "assertion". It's then incumbent on you to do so.
"My observation is that are a predictable number of people with an agenda that join AI to disparage Apple-- centered around an Apple product or position announcement... prove me wrong Chronster!"
Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider
Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.
So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.
I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.
Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.
So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.
I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.
Cheers.
Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.
Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.
Is Chronster seen to be a "bad boy"? Just curious because Dick Applebaum called me by that name and Chronster's definitely a poster here. Plus my feeling is that Dick has taken an instant dislike to my presence at AI.
Or do you think that I'm suspected of being Chronster's alter ego?
Hmmm, there's no question the iPhone 4 antenna performs better then the iPhone 3GS. Until you factor in the massive antenna attenuation if you touch the wrong spot. Did you not see their chart ? That is the issue.
The issue people are having is that they assume antenna attenuation automatically has an impact on calling performance, which is not necessarily the case in the same way that someone's digital TV reception might be much lower than others but the TV shows look exactly the same. The Anand article noted that the baseband hardware was more sensitive and so calls were more stable than any other device despite the higher signal attenuation.
Now while the signal attenuation is definitely an issue, it's also an issue with other phones so holding the iPhone 4 without a case in a natural way will drop the signal enough to drop a call in a low signal area, the same is likely to be true about previous iPhones and other phones. With a case, the extra signal strength gained will allow the iPhone 4 to exceed the performance of other phones.
The bumper case being offered free as it protects the glass on both sides and helps signal quality is a good idea but it is not designed that well because it blocks the dock port of some accessories. The cost will put some people off buying one when they may not really need it (not everyone is seeing an issue).
You have to wonder if the iPhone 4 might have had exceptional quality if the antenna was designed like the 3GS because it seems that the hardware in iPhone 4 is coping very well with even the lowest signal. With the better antenna design of the 3GS, it would have been amazing.
It seems odd though that the 3GS antenna would perform better because Apple must have tested this and found the iPhone 4 to be better otherwise why design it with external antennas in the first place? They have the ability to measure attenuation like anyone else so surely they would have noticed a drop and as people have suggested, maybe they did which is why they made a bumper case for it but there's the possibility that the signal attenuation isn't being measured accurately by testers.
I think the best solution to the issue from Apple's point of view would be to change the way the bars are displayed to instead reflect the likelihood that you can make a successful call with the signal you have but perhaps there are FCC or other regulations that state how reception should be measured.
This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as a reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.
That's the problem with so many Apple-haters here. There SHOULD BE rules of evidence. Maybe not exactly the same as the legal system uses, but it should require facts and not innuendo to convince someone of something. Controlled experiments done by people who understand the scientific method.
"Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem" is what we're hearing from a lot of people, but when you ask for evidence that a significant number of people are seeing more dropped calls, they refuse (or are unable) to answer - instead, just resorting to "Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem".
There is absolutely no way of knowing if it's a true phone flaw or simply a small number of people with defective phones (or mass hysteria, for that matter) without real data. I'm sorry that the idea of discussing facts bothers you so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting. Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.
That is not true. A large number of the loudest complainers do not have an iPhone 4 and proudly state that they'd never have one. You see that in all the threads here. Many of the loudest posters are not using the product, but simply repeating what they've heard over and over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.
Sorry, but that's the way the world works. I don't want companies running around spending billions of dollars on pseudo-solutions every time someone complains about something. First, you find out if it's a real problem. Then you find a way to replicate it consistently. Then you find a solution. Then you distribute that solution to customers.
Simply jumping from "I have a problem" to "Apple needs to do xyz to fix my problem" is a lousy argument and terrible policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.
Not even close to being true. Most Apple defenders have attacked Apple when facts justify it. I can't speak for the others, but I'm simply offended by the endless drone of Apple-hate coming from people who do not own Apple products but simply want to spew FUD. It has been going on for decades - with people spreading endless lies about the things Macs "couldn't" do all the way back into the 80's.
If someone actually uses a product and wants to engage in rational debate, that's fine with me. But if they're going to simply spew FUD without even making a simple attempt to learn facts, they're trolls - and need to find a hobby.
You have to ask yourself what kind of mental illness makes someone want to spend countless hours on forums like this attacking a product they don't own, are proud to announce that they will NEVER own, and they don't know anything about. I can understand people wanting to talk about a product that they own and like. I can even understand someone wanting to blast a product that they own and had problems with. But I'll never understand the mentality of people who spend countless hours attacking a product that they've never used - attacking it simply because they chose something different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmike
Apple should have engineered/designed a better solution. Whether it's a clear coating or another way to solve the issue. Apple shouldn't suggest using a bumper as a fix. But they should give one to everyone who spent $200 - $300 for their phone and have to deal with reception issues and have to watch how they hold the phone (which is ridiculous). And it's a shame they're telling store managers to use politics to try and ease the pain of the issue. LAME.
First, Anand's report says that EVEN WITH THE 'PROBLEM', the iPhone 4 gets better reception than other phones, so I'm not sure what the complaint is - nor am I convinced that you have any reasonable say in the matter since you admit that you don't even have one.
Second, I do not believe it would make sense for Apple to 'engineer a better solution' when there is still no data out there to suggest that it's a real problem. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that you can artificially reduce the number of bars, but there's no sign that call quality or number of dropped calls suffers. Let's get data first and then look at a solution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1
You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know. Did he test the data rates ? We don't know.
Play games all you want. The facts are simple:
1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.
2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.
3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.
That's a pretty wide range of options.
I'm just curious what your vested interest is. You don't own an iPhone and apparently have no plans to buy one. So why have you posted hundreds of messages on this topic? What drives you to spend so much anger and hatred on a product you have no plans to buy?
1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.
2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.
3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.
Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.
1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.
2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.
3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.
I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.
But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.
You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.
Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.
You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.
If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.
However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.
"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."
The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.
I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.
I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.
But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.
You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.
Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.
You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.
If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.
However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.
"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."
The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.
I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.
You're imagining things when you argue that I attack Microsoft or anyone else without facts. That's the kind of mindless accusation that offends me - and most thinking people. When there are real facts, they are fair game.
Anand's review says that the iPhone's reception is better than the other phones they tested. Period. The fact that you are able to twist your arms in some bizarre way to affect that doesn't change their results. Their tests show that the iPhone's reception is superlative.
If you don't want an iPHone, then don't buy one. But the fact that it doesn't meet your standards doesn't justify your endless, fact-free bashing. I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone. No problems at all.
Even when you finally get around to facts, you get them wrong. There's no restocking fee on iPHones at Apple Stores or Best Buys. And you don't have to buy a case if you don't wish. The fact is that products have different characteristics, so you may hold the iPhone slightly differently. Is that trivial fact worth all this endless whining and lawsuits? Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of people do NOT have to hold their phone differently. Pick up an iPhone 4 and hold it next to your ear in the most comfortable manner. For everyone I've ever seen, that position would NOT be one that generates the 'problem'.
Finally, you're talking about a 'problem' as if there's any proof that it's a real problem. While lots of people can get the number of bars to drop, that's a cosmetic issue. There are very few reports of dropped calls while holding the phone normally. THAT is one if the things that makes me ask for facts. Instead of jumping on the "Apple is evil" or "Apple is incompetent" bandwagon, how about first determining if there's a real problem. So far, there's no evidence that it's anything more than a few isolated cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1
Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.
1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.
2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.
3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.
1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.
2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.
3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.
AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.
1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.
2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.
3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.
AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.
Dude, why do you continue to distort facts.
1. Go back and re-read AnandTech's review. They plainly say how when using the bumper, they were able to use the phone in low signal areas. They never said touching the seam does not cause call/data issues.
AnandTech:
Quote:
With my bumper case on, I made it further into dead zones than ever before, and into marginal areas that would always drop calls without any problems at all.
2. No, customers are complaining they are having call and/or data issues. Not just cosmetic bar display issues. And Apple is saying there is no issue. But just avoid touching the seam or buy a case.
3. The issue is touching the lower left seam. Not both seams. Glad not touching the seam isn't a issue for you. But it is for many people. Who are you to tell people what's a big deal or not ? It is a big deal to many people. Because it's in a place you normally hold the phone. So you are the one that needs to get over it.
And, yes there is a 10% restocking fee on all Apple products. You need to pull you hand out of the sand and do more research.
Apple website:
Quote:
Apple will assess a 10% restocking fee on any opened iPhone. Shipping fees are not refundable.
If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.
Time I think to step into the light.
You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.
If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.
Time I think to step into the light.
You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.
Right now I'm sitting outside the Vodafone store in the Scotland in my car. I originally bought the ip4 at 9.30 am exactly one week ago. I'm in a 3G area and streamed radio the 15 miles to the store with the phone sitting next me, whereas on the 3G model on O2 the signal would have been dropped numerous times. Whilst sitting in my car I got three bars of signal strength and everything downloaded quickly. That was when I held the phone by the top. When I held the phone in my left hand in a relaxed and comfortable way the signal within about 5 seconds dropped to Vodafones slower network and showed two bars. At that point I didn't wait any longer and went into the store. The manager was very friendly and tried my phone out. He went from 5 bars in the store to no service in about 5 seconds. When he laid the phone down within about 15 seconds the phone had full 3G service again.
He put into the system ghat Vodafone is reserving a a new ip4 for me as a replacement when they come in (they're currently sold out) which will likely be early next week. He also put into the system that if that new ip4 has the same issues then I can cancel my contract as though I was still in the 7 day grace period.
That's good service, the kind of service I have been always fortunate enough to get with Apple up until now.
It is possible that my phone was worse than it could have been with other ip4's therefore it's worth my while to try out a new one.
Comments
Of course not everyone is objective as me. But, because of my personal (yes, limited) experience with the issue, and reading material from people that are a lot more knowledgeable about the inner working of cell phones then me, this obviously appears to be an issue that is not normal. Despite Apple's claims of it being normal. Which in itself is disappointing.
Interesting revelation. So even though you appear to be a rational and objective person too, you have a dog in this fight. You might not be truly objective as you normally would be, if you did not own Apple stock, or have a deep love for them.
That's no revelation! I post it often so that people understand my perspective. I do have a dog in this fight and a set of experiences that have served me well. No apologies!
I don't think that having a significant (to me) position in AAPL automatically makes me irrational and non-objective,
If I think that Apple is working against my interests, hopefully I am objective enough to cover my assets!
.
My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.
That's not been the case with a significant numbers of Apple's defenders.
Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider
This forum has a lot of active posters that, like yourself, join AI to post to a specific topic.
Yours appears to to spread negative information (with no substantiation) about the iPhone 4.
I have an iPhone and am not experiencing the problem.
Sorry, but I gotta' ask you too:
-- Do you own an iPhone 4?
-- Did You buy if for personal use?
-- Are you experiencing the problem you are reporting that "many people" are experiencing?
.
Fair enough. I'd like you to reference the "negative info (with no substantiation)" about the iPhone that you allege I "spread".
In answer to your three questions...
No, I don't and wouldn't be in a position to buy until they're released here, probably in August on Vodafone.
Yes, it would be for my personal use.
Obviously I can't be experiencing the problem if I don't have an iP4.
My current phone is a Nokia E63, and my wife has an iPhone 3Gs. In my work I use a MacBook, an iMac 24 and a MacPro G5. My kids have 4 iPods between them. (I'm too old to get away with white earbuds and headbanging at traffic lights).
This topic got me posting because 1) I'm interested in an iP4 as replacement for my E63 and ultimately 2) because of SJ's dismissive remark about "holding it that way".
Without that I'd still be lurking.
Right now, the reception issues are giving me pause so I'll watch developments with interest. If it's a design issue, then I surely won't be buying this model. If it's software, or if it's a manufacturing hiccup, and providing it's sorted, the an iP4 will be my next phone.
I'm glad you're not experiencing the problem yourself though. Perhaps you got lucky?
"Tell me how you know that "The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone" is a valid logical assumption."
Because they are telling us that their phone either has or doesn't have issues. That is a report. If the poster does not have a phone, how can he report it's status? I don't understand why you find that difficult to comprehend.
"Since I have no knowledge of your history, ability, biases-- I naturally treat your opinions with some skepticism-- I don't know you, yet, and I don't need to treat your unsupported options and assertion with equal weight as those who have a reasoned track record (whether I agree with it or not!)."
I'm not sure I'd agree that "naturally" is the right phrase. Seems to me the natural thing is to give somebody the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. But then, your society there is no doubt different to mine.
"Who are you? Why are you making [mostly] negative posts to an Apple forum? Do you have an agenda?"
I'm contributing posts on an issue that, if true, casts the iP4 in a poor light. You think I should pretend that there's no issue and make soothing supportive posts instead maybe? Even though I believe that the iP4 has flawed reception?
"Back up your assertions with some substantiation, then we can have a reasoned discussion."
Which assertions exactly would you like me to back up?
"No strawman-- show me 100 unique reports"
You were the one claiming "a single story repeated 1,000 times does not mean there are 1,000 people experiencing the issue. Nor, do 50 stories repeated 200 times" so presumably you have quantifiable evidence (your standard) to back up your "assertion". It's then incumbent on you to do so.
"My observation is that are a predictable number of people with an agenda that join AI to disparage Apple-- centered around an Apple product or position announcement... prove me wrong Chronster!"
Chronster?
Very Astute Observations, and Welcome To Apple Insider
Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.
So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.
I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.
Cheers.
Thanks for the friendly welcome. Gotta say it's the first one though.
So you're one of the "trolls" huh? I get the feeling, having read these threads for quite some time, that there's a bunch of citizenry around these here parts that'd be happy that you weren't here. You must have a tough hide on ya DaHarder.
I'm thinking seriously of skulking back into the shadows, having tasted the warmth of the local hospitality. We'll see over the next few hours.
Cheers.
Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.
Simply Stand Your Ground, ignoring the (self-proclaimed) AI Elite who are not nearly as 'intellectually astute' as they think they are.
Is Chronster seen to be a "bad boy"? Just curious because Dick Applebaum called me by that name and Chronster's definitely a poster here. Plus my feeling is that Dick has taken an instant dislike to my presence at AI.
Or do you think that I'm suspected of being Chronster's alter ego?
Inquiring minds...
Hmmm, there's no question the iPhone 4 antenna performs better then the iPhone 3GS. Until you factor in the massive antenna attenuation if you touch the wrong spot. Did you not see their chart ? That is the issue.
The issue people are having is that they assume antenna attenuation automatically has an impact on calling performance, which is not necessarily the case in the same way that someone's digital TV reception might be much lower than others but the TV shows look exactly the same. The Anand article noted that the baseband hardware was more sensitive and so calls were more stable than any other device despite the higher signal attenuation.
Now while the signal attenuation is definitely an issue, it's also an issue with other phones so holding the iPhone 4 without a case in a natural way will drop the signal enough to drop a call in a low signal area, the same is likely to be true about previous iPhones and other phones. With a case, the extra signal strength gained will allow the iPhone 4 to exceed the performance of other phones.
The bumper case being offered free as it protects the glass on both sides and helps signal quality is a good idea but it is not designed that well because it blocks the dock port of some accessories. The cost will put some people off buying one when they may not really need it (not everyone is seeing an issue).
You have to wonder if the iPhone 4 might have had exceptional quality if the antenna was designed like the 3GS because it seems that the hardware in iPhone 4 is coping very well with even the lowest signal. With the better antenna design of the 3GS, it would have been amazing.
It seems odd though that the 3GS antenna would perform better because Apple must have tested this and found the iPhone 4 to be better otherwise why design it with external antennas in the first place? They have the ability to measure attenuation like anyone else so surely they would have noticed a drop and as people have suggested, maybe they did which is why they made a bumper case for it but there's the possibility that the signal attenuation isn't being measured accurately by testers.
I think the best solution to the issue from Apple's point of view would be to change the way the bars are displayed to instead reflect the likelihood that you can make a successful call with the signal you have but perhaps there are FCC or other regulations that state how reception should be measured.
Big question is why has he chosen to dig into antenna design. Had he not, gawkers would never know.
if Apple thinks i'm spending 29 bucks on an 18-cent piece of silicone they're out of their minds.
Many women spend $6K for their new silicone twins why not a bumper?
.
Dick Gaywood?
Grow up.
Gaywood + "grow up"
.
This is not a court of law so the rules of evidence clearly don't need to meet such stringent criteria as a reasonable basis to form an opinion. Note that I don't expect everybody to agree with that opinion, nor necessarily to disagree with is. It is after all what contributing to a forum is all about. So let's agree that what you believe is no more valid than what I believe, nor any less so.
That's the problem with so many Apple-haters here. There SHOULD BE rules of evidence. Maybe not exactly the same as the legal system uses, but it should require facts and not innuendo to convince someone of something. Controlled experiments done by people who understand the scientific method.
"Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem" is what we're hearing from a lot of people, but when you ask for evidence that a significant number of people are seeing more dropped calls, they refuse (or are unable) to answer - instead, just resorting to "Waaah, waaah, waaah, I have a problem".
There is absolutely no way of knowing if it's a true phone flaw or simply a small number of people with defective phones (or mass hysteria, for that matter) without real data. I'm sorry that the idea of discussing facts bothers you so much.
The posters reporting the issue are by definition those with a phone that is either giving problems or is not, and they are letting us know which. That is reporting. Those who don't have a phone are discussing the validity of the claims and reports of others and forming opinions on the basis of what they're reading, here and elsewhere.
That is not true. A large number of the loudest complainers do not have an iPhone 4 and proudly state that they'd never have one. You see that in all the threads here. Many of the loudest posters are not using the product, but simply repeating what they've heard over and over.
And you demand that the evidence be quantifiable before you'll accept it. You're asking for proof. The evidence is there but you choose to reject it as unreliable. Don't confuse that with there being none.
Sorry, but that's the way the world works. I don't want companies running around spending billions of dollars on pseudo-solutions every time someone complains about something. First, you find out if it's a real problem. Then you find a way to replicate it consistently. Then you find a solution. Then you distribute that solution to customers.
Simply jumping from "I have a problem" to "Apple needs to do xyz to fix my problem" is a lousy argument and terrible policy.
My observation is that AppleInsider has a core of people whose kneejerk reaction is to attack anybody who disparages Apple, deserved or otherwise. There's a paranoia about newcomers having opinions that are unsupportive of Apple, yet most of the newer posters here who have expressed their disappointment at Apple on this issue seem to be rational and measured.
Not even close to being true. Most Apple defenders have attacked Apple when facts justify it. I can't speak for the others, but I'm simply offended by the endless drone of Apple-hate coming from people who do not own Apple products but simply want to spew FUD. It has been going on for decades - with people spreading endless lies about the things Macs "couldn't" do all the way back into the 80's.
If someone actually uses a product and wants to engage in rational debate, that's fine with me. But if they're going to simply spew FUD without even making a simple attempt to learn facts, they're trolls - and need to find a hobby.
You have to ask yourself what kind of mental illness makes someone want to spend countless hours on forums like this attacking a product they don't own, are proud to announce that they will NEVER own, and they don't know anything about. I can understand people wanting to talk about a product that they own and like. I can even understand someone wanting to blast a product that they own and had problems with. But I'll never understand the mentality of people who spend countless hours attacking a product that they've never used - attacking it simply because they chose something different.
Apple should have engineered/designed a better solution. Whether it's a clear coating or another way to solve the issue. Apple shouldn't suggest using a bumper as a fix. But they should give one to everyone who spent $200 - $300 for their phone and have to deal with reception issues and have to watch how they hold the phone (which is ridiculous). And it's a shame they're telling store managers to use politics to try and ease the pain of the issue. LAME.
First, Anand's report says that EVEN WITH THE 'PROBLEM', the iPhone 4 gets better reception than other phones, so I'm not sure what the complaint is - nor am I convinced that you have any reasonable say in the matter since you admit that you don't even have one.
Second, I do not believe it would make sense for Apple to 'engineer a better solution' when there is still no data out there to suggest that it's a real problem. Yes, there is plenty of evidence that you can artificially reduce the number of bars, but there's no sign that call quality or number of dropped calls suffers. Let's get data first and then look at a solution.
You are missing their point. They are saying the iPhone 4 can handle low signals better then the iPhone 3GS. That is not the issue. The issue is that when you touch the iPhone 4 on the seam, for many people, the signal gets to a level where it does drop calls. Or the data rate drops dramatically. Also during this part of their test, did he touch it at the seam ? We don't know. Did he have a bumper on ? We don't know. Did he test the data rates ? We don't know.
Play games all you want. The facts are simple:
1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.
2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.
3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.
That's a pretty wide range of options.
I'm just curious what your vested interest is. You don't own an iPhone and apparently have no plans to buy one. So why have you posted hundreds of messages on this topic? What drives you to spend so much anger and hatred on a product you have no plans to buy?
1. EVEN THOUGH ANAND CAN DEMONSTRATE THE 'PROBLEM', they got better call quality with the iPHone 4 than with other phones. They were able to go places where the iPhone 3GS wouldn't even connect. In Anand's tests, call quality did not suffer.
2. There is no widespread evidence to suggest that call quality suffers or that the number of dropped calls has increased. Running around trying to change things without data is foolish. How would you know that a 'solution' doesn't make things worse - unless you have data? I would prefer for Apple to be a rational company who first determines if there IS a problem with dropped calls, then collects information, THEN solves the problem - rather than simply running around throwing out 'solutions' willy-nilly.
3. EVEN IF the problem does lead to dropped calls, it only occurs when you cup your hand over the bottom of the phone - which is almost impossible to do in normal use. When you're on the Internet, it's trivial to move your hand up slightly higher on the phone. So, people who have a problem can:
a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case
or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently.
Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.
1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.
2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.
3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.
I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.
But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.
You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.
Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.
You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.
If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.
However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.
"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."
The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.
I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.
jragosta...
I appreciate the fact that you took the time to explain to me your frustration that I don't see your point of view. And you're right. I don't. Your passion for Apple shines through and you fight the good fight. Of that there's no doubt at all.
But this is a website when people can take pot-shots at Microsoft as they please, HTC can be pilloried without fear, where Adobe can be slandered as the whim takes you and Android is openly reviled for just being an Apple competitor.
You can't then suddenly demand a far higher standard from those who criticize Apple than you're prepared to demand from Apple's supporters. That's just hypocrisy.
Facts are fine to insist on, but if that were a mandatory requirement at AppleInsider, there would be no articles and no posts. That's a reality. Ask your mods.
You don't need to have an iP4 to want it to be all it could, should be. I'm not here to beat up on the iP4 or Apple. I want an iPhone. But I don't want one with a crap reception. And I don't believe you do either.
If you believe I'm a troll, you're of course entitled to your opinion. Obviously I can't dictate that and all I can do is argue my case as well as I can. If I fail to convince you then it's my problem. But I've pleaded my case as well as I'm able. That's the breaks.
However, Anand's review clearly shows that iP4 has real issues. Read the review again with an open mind and you'll see what we're talking about. I never said Apple needs to make a rash attempt at appeasing the vociferous. If Apple doesn't take ownership of this, it'll be a serious PR disaster for the company. I don't want that. I know you don't want that. Denying the obvious, in my opinion, is the wrong approach. Apple needs to 'fess up and fix it.
"a. Return the phone for a full refund
b. Buy a case or
c. Learn to hold the phone slightly differently."
The options all favor Apple rather than the consumer:
a: The returnee is out the restocking fee
b: The case costs the consumer $30 for an Apple issue
c: You shouldn't have to re-learn to hold a mobile phone for no other reason than it has an Apple logo in it.
I have explained my motives more than once, including this very thread. If you don't understand them now, then I don't believe I can further your comprehension.
You're imagining things when you argue that I attack Microsoft or anyone else without facts. That's the kind of mindless accusation that offends me - and most thinking people. When there are real facts, they are fair game.
Anand's review says that the iPhone's reception is better than the other phones they tested. Period. The fact that you are able to twist your arms in some bizarre way to affect that doesn't change their results. Their tests show that the iPhone's reception is superlative.
If you don't want an iPHone, then don't buy one. But the fact that it doesn't meet your standards doesn't justify your endless, fact-free bashing. I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone. No problems at all.
Even when you finally get around to facts, you get them wrong. There's no restocking fee on iPHones at Apple Stores or Best Buys. And you don't have to buy a case if you don't wish. The fact is that products have different characteristics, so you may hold the iPhone slightly differently. Is that trivial fact worth all this endless whining and lawsuits? Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of people do NOT have to hold their phone differently. Pick up an iPhone 4 and hold it next to your ear in the most comfortable manner. For everyone I've ever seen, that position would NOT be one that generates the 'problem'.
Finally, you're talking about a 'problem' as if there's any proof that it's a real problem. While lots of people can get the number of bars to drop, that's a cosmetic issue. There are very few reports of dropped calls while holding the phone normally. THAT is one if the things that makes me ask for facts. Instead of jumping on the "Apple is evil" or "Apple is incompetent" bandwagon, how about first determining if there's a real problem. So far, there's no evidence that it's anything more than a few isolated cases.
Why do you purposely distort the facts ? Let's take them one by one.
1. Yes, AnandTech was able to make calls in places with a lower signal. When they avoid touching the seam. And using a bumper. That isn't the issue. The issue is that when the phone is touched at the seam, without a bumper, the phone drops calls and/or has drastically lower data rates. That is the issue.
2. Then why does Apple state the solution is to avoid touching the seam or buy a case ? They are the one giving out solutions to their customers on this issue/flaw. And Apple is claiming there is no issue. They are not saying they are looking into the issue. They are saying this is normal. Apple's statements of it being a non-issue, makes this situation worse.
3. Wrong, it's not when you cup your hand around the phone. All it takes is a simple touch of a fingertip on the seam. Which is very easy to do, due to it's poor placement. It's in a place where many people naturally place their hands. Also, you can't return the phone for a full refund. Apple charges a 10% restocking fee. And why should the customer buy a case just so the phone can work as a phone.
1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.
2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.
3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.
AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.
1. Where did it say that Anand had a bumper on all the time? They stated that they did testing with bumper, without bumper, holding it in all sorts of locations AND NEVER HAD A DROPPED CALL. NEVER. So please stop making up lies.
2. Apple is claiming that the dropping bars issue is cosmetic and doesn't lead to dropped calls, but if you don't want the bars to drop, get a case or don't touch the seam. Nothing inconsistent int hat.
3. Try cupping the bottom of the phone in the palm of your hand with your hand touching both seams - which is the most common complaint registered here and elsewhere. NOW, try holding the phone to your ear to make a call. You can't do it. If it were simply a matter of a fingertip touching, you move your hand 1/4" higher. BFD.
AND, there's no restocking fees at Apple stores. Yet another of your lies.
Dude, why do you continue to distort facts.
1. Go back and re-read AnandTech's review. They plainly say how when using the bumper, they were able to use the phone in low signal areas. They never said touching the seam does not cause call/data issues.
AnandTech:
With my bumper case on, I made it further into dead zones than ever before, and into marginal areas that would always drop calls without any problems at all.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/t...one-4-review/2
2. No, customers are complaining they are having call and/or data issues. Not just cosmetic bar display issues. And Apple is saying there is no issue. But just avoid touching the seam or buy a case.
3. The issue is touching the lower left seam. Not both seams. Glad not touching the seam isn't a issue for you. But it is for many people. Who are you to tell people what's a big deal or not ? It is a big deal to many people. Because it's in a place you normally hold the phone. So you are the one that needs to get over it.
And, yes there is a 10% restocking fee on all Apple products. You need to pull you hand out of the sand and do more research.
Apple website:
Apple will assess a 10% restocking fee on any opened iPhone. Shipping fees are not refundable.
http://store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Im...#iphonereturns
You really like distorting the facts. Why ?
If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.
Time I think to step into the light.
You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.
Cheers.
Dude, I admire your tenacity and your patience.
If jragosta is so bent upon defending Apple, counter to all logic, then maybe it's time to let go. I just did. I tried to be reasonable and polite but at some point the willful rejection of sanity simply cannot be overcome.You did your best.
Time I think to step into the light.
You can do no more here. Face it and move on dude.
Cheers.
Agreed, thanks for the reality check
He put into the system ghat Vodafone is reserving a a new ip4 for me as a replacement when they come in (they're currently sold out) which will likely be early next week. He also put into the system that if that new ip4 has the same issues then I can cancel my contract as though I was still in the 7 day grace period.
That's good service, the kind of service I have been always fortunate enough to get with Apple up until now.
It is possible that my phone was worse than it could have been with other ip4's therefore it's worth my while to try out a new one.