Vietnam and Korea were about communism and containment, but The Cold War specifically refers to our "cold war" (clever bit, that) with the U.S.S.R.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who do you think was backing them? It wasn't just China. It was called a cold war because we didn't square off directly with the USSR. If we did, it would have been WWIII. Viet Nam, Korea, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan, etc. were all part of the Cold War but instead of fighting Russians directly we fought proxies or we had proxies that fought on our side. These hot wars were about containment, yes. But so were all the spy games and the Berlin airlift and the Cuban missile crisis. That's what the Cold War was about - containment.
It is strange that Israel captures so much attention from the world but things like <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51325,00.html"; target="_blank">this are swept under the carpet</a> like they never happen. But I guess you have to be an Islamic country to have that kind of protection.
<strong>It is strange that Israel captures so much attention from the world but things like <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51325,00.html"; target="_blank">this are swept under the carpet</a> like they never happen. But I guess you have to be an Islamic country to have that kind of protection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What the hell are You talking about? "Swept under the carpet." <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> How can you say that when the article is from today.
And what about looking for articles other places before you make a bold statement like that?
What more coverage can you have of Palestinian terror acts? They are all over the front pages of our national papers and national news websites when they happen.
The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.
What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?
"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[edit]
Roger:
While this wonderful semantic quibble about what the term "Cold War" encompasses goes on, don't forget the actual point of contention, pckilla's assertion that the ME situation isn't globally important.
containment > Cold War
Korea, Cuba, Vietnam etc... all result from containment, not our Cold War with Russia. The Cold War was about containment as well.
<strong>What more coverage can you have of Palestinian terror acts? They are all over the front pages of our national papers and national news websites when they happen.
The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.
What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?
"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, that might be the case in the US but here in Europe the story is told almost completly from a Palestinian angle and it's obvious that most journalist's sympathy is with the palestinian side.
<strong>hmm ... well, let's see how long they run with story. This thing is a systemic problem, and not just limited to Indonesia.
... "which was meant to end three years of fighting between Muslims and Christians here that has left 9,000 dead." ... :eek:
Kinda puts the current hysteria about Israeli actions in perspective. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Well judge I might have killed ten people when I went mad with a Uzi in my old high school but think about what OBL did. I don´t think what I did was so bad was it?" <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Never compare what you do with what happens in non related conflicts. If you do then in Indonesia can say "Well Hitler killed this or that number of Jews, Communists and Intellectuals. Are we so bad then?"
You are missing my point. This has been going on for at least three years, yet it is rarely if ever mentioned. It is not an isolated incident that you can brush off. This is a systemic problem, and not confined to Indonesia alone. I seem to recall similar things happening in north Africa, where the surviving Christians are then turned into slaves, believe it or not.
mika.
Edit:
groverat, you said you are a journalism student. You probably have access to people and material that most of us don?t. Could you see if you can verify this story.
Can´t say about UK but not true here in Denmark. When there is terrorist suicide bombs going off everywhere in Israel papers reports about that. When Israel close off larg parts of the occupied areas and transport heavy military equipment into them and do "classified" thing ith it they report about that.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anders, off course they report all about suicide attacks here in UK too its news and news sell papers .... the problem is that inside the pages and on the BBC all of the reporting is done in a very one sided way, important facts about PA complicity in terror are withheld and there are loads of Op-Ed sections full of anti Israeli and sometimes even anti-semitic opinions .. very little in way of showing the Israeli side... it got so bad a few weeks ago that even the foreign secretary Jack Straw (not a generally pro Israeli man) went out against UK coverage of the story .... And I know from friends in France and Norway that the situation there is ten times worse... its enough to see the horrific string of violent Anti-semitic attacks in the past few months in France Germany and Central Europe ! basically israel is fair game these days around Europe.
<strong>You are missing my point. This has been going on for at least three years, yet it is rarely if ever mentioned.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.
I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Were you aware that there is a civil war taking place in southern (upper) Egypt between the regime and extreme Islamist groups who want independance from the Nile Delta Egypt ?
Thousands of people died there in the past 20 years and no--one talks about it ...How about internal unrest and represion in Saudi Arabia or what is happening in Lebanon where the Syrians are in effect occupying Lebanon.
Start different threads about different goddam topics. The fact that you guys can link to this stuff from major media outlets proves it's not being hidden. You're de-railing the thread.
rashumon:
Occam's razor compels us here in the matter of Palestinian dead in Jenin.
Scenario 1: Group A occupies a city/camp for weeks, keeping everyone (international journalists, etc...) out (sometimes sniping at them as they try to sneak in) for weeks. They are accused of killing lots of people.
Scenario 2: Group B decides to take the dead from graves in other parts of the region to move to Jenin (after international media and such are there) to inflate the body count.
I don't know about you, but Scenario 1 seems like the most obvious.
Don´t know. But if Sharon didn´t delay the time when UN could get into Jenin this wouldn´t be a possibility. And now Israel is exposing itself to suspicions about hiding what went on.
Here's a little something the Saudis would like to keep quite....
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As Groverat said we discuss Israel/Palestine here. Start another thread about this conflict and you will discover that noone here disagree that this is wrong, bad etc.
This is a typical case of "oh yeah but he is even worse that me" *run away while teacher looks at boy you pointed at*
[quote]
<strong>The second article also gives you an idea of what the UN is all about.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you think we should give money to slave dealers to have them free slaves? I am sure that this tactic will make them reconsider taking slaves in the first place... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
It always strikes me as strange, the fascination people have with this subject ? namely Israel. Such a tiny nation, with an even tinier piece of land, yet, the attention it garners is awesome. Makes me think that there?s something deeply unconscious going on here. Quite unsettling?
<strong>Start different threads about different goddam topics. The fact that you guys can link to this stuff from major media outlets proves it's not being hidden. You're de-railing the thread. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The point is, that nobody started this thread in the first place...
So maybe my suspicions are not so off base after all.
<strong>Meanwhile, Israel still hasn't allowed the UN into the Jenin camp...
No, not suspiscious at all that they aren't even in there and Israel is already making excuses for the large number of dead...
Not suspiscious at all!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel smelled a rat. I think they quite correct on insisting on their demand. And if people like you who already prejudged the situation don?t like it. Well, too bad.
Comments
<strong>No, they weren't.
Vietnam and Korea were about communism and containment, but The Cold War specifically refers to our "cold war" (clever bit, that) with the U.S.S.R.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who do you think was backing them? It wasn't just China. It was called a cold war because we didn't square off directly with the USSR. If we did, it would have been WWIII. Viet Nam, Korea, Nicaragua, Chile, Afghanistan, etc. were all part of the Cold War but instead of fighting Russians directly we fought proxies or we had proxies that fought on our side. These hot wars were about containment, yes. But so were all the spy games and the Berlin airlift and the Cuban missile crisis. That's what the Cold War was about - containment.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: roger_ramjet ]</p>
<strong>It is strange that Israel captures so much attention from the world but things like <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51325,00.html"; target="_blank">this are swept under the carpet</a> like they never happen. But I guess you have to be an Islamic country to have that kind of protection.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What the hell are You talking about? "Swept under the carpet." <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
And what about looking for articles other places before you make a bold statement like that?
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/04/27/indonesia.ambon/index.html"; target="_blank">CNN</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/asia-pacific/newsid_1955000/1955918.stm"; target="_blank">BBC</a> (and also on their front page)
The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.
What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[edit]
Roger:
While this wonderful semantic quibble about what the term "Cold War" encompasses goes on, don't forget the actual point of contention, pckilla's assertion that the ME situation isn't globally important.
containment > Cold War
Korea, Cuba, Vietnam etc... all result from containment, not our Cold War with Russia. The Cold War was about containment as well.
It's a semantic thing.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
<strong>What more coverage can you have of Palestinian terror acts? They are all over the front pages of our national papers and national news websites when they happen.
The U.S. media was almost completely silent about Jenin when it was going on.
What more do you want? A .gov official to come to your door and tell you every time something happens?
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
"It's swept under the rug!" and then you link to one of the biggest news outlets in the U.S.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, that might be the case in the US but here in Europe the story is told almost completly from a Palestinian angle and it's obvious that most journalist's sympathy is with the palestinian side.
... "which was meant to end three years of fighting between Muslims and Christians here that has left 9,000 dead." ... :eek:
Kinda puts the current hysteria about Israeli actions in perspective. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>hmm ... well, let's see how long they run with story. This thing is a systemic problem, and not just limited to Indonesia.
... "which was meant to end three years of fighting between Muslims and Christians here that has left 9,000 dead." ... :eek:
Kinda puts the current hysteria about Israeli actions in perspective. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Well judge I might have killed ten people when I went mad with a Uzi in my old high school but think about what OBL did. I don´t think what I did was so bad was it?" <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Never compare what you do with what happens in non related conflicts. If you do then in Indonesia can say "Well Hitler killed this or that number of Jews, Communists and Intellectuals. Are we so bad then?"
Use our own standarts instead of others.
mika.
Edit:
groverat, you said you are a journalism student. You probably have access to people and material that most of us don?t. Could you see if you can verify this story.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
Can´t say about UK but not true here in Denmark. When there is terrorist suicide bombs going off everywhere in Israel papers reports about that. When Israel close off larg parts of the occupied areas and transport heavy military equipment into them and do "classified" thing ith it they report about that.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anders, off course they report all about suicide attacks here in UK too its news and news sell papers .... the problem is that inside the pages and on the BBC all of the reporting is done in a very one sided way, important facts about PA complicity in terror are withheld and there are loads of Op-Ed sections full of anti Israeli and sometimes even anti-semitic opinions .. very little in way of showing the Israeli side... it got so bad a few weeks ago that even the foreign secretary Jack Straw (not a generally pro Israeli man) went out against UK coverage of the story .... And I know from friends in France and Norway that the situation there is ten times worse... its enough to see the horrific string of violent Anti-semitic attacks in the past few months in France Germany and Central Europe ! basically israel is fair game these days around Europe.
<a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119117&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=119117&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=15&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>You are missing my point. This has been going on for at least three years, yet it is rarely if ever mentioned.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.
<strong>
I guess you should buy some different newspapers then if you feel underinformed Mika. Since my "palestinian-loving anti-zionistic" european newschannels is reporting about this conflict on a regular basis I have been well aware of it for a long time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Were you aware that there is a civil war taking place in southern (upper) Egypt between the regime and extreme Islamist groups who want independance from the Nile Delta Egypt ?
Thousands of people died there in the past 20 years and no--one talks about it ...How about internal unrest and represion in Saudi Arabia or what is happening in Lebanon where the Syrians are in effect occupying Lebanon.
Propaganda ? who's right ?
<a href="http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156622&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y" target="_blank">http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=156622&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y</a>
Here's a little something the Saudis would like to keep quite....
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1530000/1530838.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_1530000/1530838.stm</a>;
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_468000/468445.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_468000/468445.stm</a>;
?Sudan is the worst human rights violator of religious freedom today, with over two million people killed in the last 18 years?
The government in the north, "is trying to enforce the Islamisation and Arabisation of all the people".
?It's trying to wipe out the black, Christian, and Muslim populations that don't agree with their plan.?
?For Mr Madison and many members of the black community, it is the allegation of widespread slavery in Sudan that has motivated their crusade?
The second article also gives you an idea of what the UN is all about.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
rashumon:
Occam's razor compels us here in the matter of Palestinian dead in Jenin.
Scenario 1: Group A occupies a city/camp for weeks, keeping everyone (international journalists, etc...) out (sometimes sniping at them as they try to sneak in) for weeks. They are accused of killing lots of people.
Scenario 2: Group B decides to take the dead from graves in other parts of the region to move to Jenin (after international media and such are there) to inflate the body count.
I don't know about you, but Scenario 1 seems like the most obvious.
#2 sounds more like, "she raped herself!"
<strong>........
Propaganda ? who's right ?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don´t know. But if Sharon didn´t delay the time when UN could get into Jenin this wouldn´t be a possibility. And now Israel is exposing itself to suspicions about hiding what went on.
<strong>Muslim slavery of Christians ?
Here's a little something the Saudis would like to keep quite....
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As Groverat said we discuss Israel/Palestine here. Start another thread about this conflict and you will discover that noone here disagree that this is wrong, bad etc.
This is a typical case of "oh yeah but he is even worse that me" *run away while teacher looks at boy you pointed at*
[quote]
<strong>The second article also gives you an idea of what the UN is all about.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you think we should give money to slave dealers to have them free slaves? I am sure that this tactic will make them reconsider taking slaves in the first place... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
No, not suspiscious at all that they aren't even in there and Israel is already making excuses for the large number of dead...
Not suspiscious at all!
<strong>a bit off topic ?
It always strikes me as strange, the fascination people have with this subject ? namely Israel. Such a tiny nation, with an even tinier piece of land, yet, the attention it garners is awesome. Makes me think that there?s something deeply unconscious going on here. Quite unsettling?
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by groverat:
<strong>Start different threads about different goddam topics. The fact that you guys can link to this stuff from major media outlets proves it's not being hidden. You're de-railing the thread. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The point is, that nobody started this thread in the first place...
So maybe my suspicions are not so off base after all.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>Meanwhile, Israel still hasn't allowed the UN into the Jenin camp...
No, not suspiscious at all that they aren't even in there and Israel is already making excuses for the large number of dead...
Not suspiscious at all!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Israel smelled a rat. I think they quite correct on insisting on their demand. And if people like you who already prejudged the situation don?t like it. Well, too bad.
mika.