<strong>Damned biased UN folks will bring in more Palestinian dead bodies from other places. Fie on them! </strong><hr></blockquote>
No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.
Just like they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.
Like I and others have said again and again: What is the title of this thread? Surprised that we talk about Israel and Palestine here?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.
No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) So what is your suspicion about us then?
2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)
No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.
Just like when they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.
You guys have to admit Mika has a point here ... I pretty much disagree with him on most stuff he says but the Leanese border story is true and well documented ( was a hugh embarrasment for the UN and Anan few monthes ago )and the fact you guys never heard about it proves another point. the UN isn't all just and innocent as the recent resignation of the whole Dutch government remindes us... UN representatives are people with nationalities they have their own agenda and interests.....
There is a reason for Israel not letting the UN team in yet ( although is has originaly welcomed its formation) the Israeli demands are totaly reasonable and have been approved by the UN who then backtracked on the agrement
2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. That?s why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.
I would be happy to get details </strong><hr></blockquote>
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.
I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. That?s why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.
Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right!
And what happens when some US soldiers get killed by Arabs. Groverat and his like will be there to blame us, and say it?s all Israel?s fault. Just like he blames us for 9/11. Great idea! I guess you never did learn the lessons from Beirut. Americans don't have the stomach for this. It they shouldn't. It's not really their problem.
Of course it depends on what conditions Israel give the forces...
But I think US will recognise its worth the risk. I know we are. And a plan build on the arab suggestion (which essentially is 242 plus recognision by the arab states) will make it more clear cut.
And I know the arab states wouldn´t like american troops but under UN rule and combined with scandinavian and other more neutral PK troops they would have to accept.
And again it is their problem. alone the number of UN resolutions makes it their (and every countries) problem.
Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.
Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uhh ?!?!
Israel has been front page news since the day of it?s inception. If an Israeli politician picks his f***ing nose, it?s in every television set in the world.
And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in ?safety?, Israel should give up it?s right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.
This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.
And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in ?safety?, Israel should give up it?s right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Elegantly ignoring the other reasons why its my concern <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
If you have to have everything litterally let me spell it out for you: Me riding my bike from one end of Israel to the other without any worry = Israel in a condition where it can worry about other things that who is going to get blown up in a cafe next time, trading with its neigbours, not opressing people within its boarders. In other words a country where its youth doesn´t have go give years of its life to the military in a conflict most people want solved in a peaceful manner and having enough sparetime to go and enjoy the beautiful country they live in and visit Sharm el Sheikh and Petra in their friendly neighbouring countries without any fear
*edit*
And "shmuck" and "kick you in face" right back at you bro´ <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough I agree with that whole heartedly !
I think that what israel is doing now with the fact finding mission is exactly what you say re being mega careful what exactly this mission can and can't do and how it proposes to do that .... nothing's wrong with that me thinks.... I also think groovrat's allegations and pre-assumptions ( him being judge, jury, and executioner for Israel and assuming everything is a coverup)
is unfair and not based on the facts of the story...
And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?
Right. We already know what happens to people when they place their security in the hands of Arabs and "democtracts" such as you.
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.
This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.
You're very taxing on the patience.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No mate, YOU are very taxing on the patience <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
The wrong UN team could do enormous damage to Israel in Jenin just like it does in Lebanon.
They could ignore the fact that these were terrorists Israel was fighting there ... It can ignore the fact that this is an armed struggle which by its very nature leads to casualties...
it can Ignore the fact that It was the Palestinian millitants who choose to hide among innocent civilians and boobytrap the entire refugee camp ( did you know that every day they get 3-4 explosions there while trying to clear the rubble out)...
This is not about wheather Israel was justified in attacking Jenin or not .. this is not a political mission sent to solve the area's problmes the groovrat way. its a mission with a simple mandate: to investigate wheather there was an Israeli masscare performed against 500 civilians in jenin as the Palestinians claim.
there is nothing wrong with BOTH sides to insist on their demands ( as long as they are reasonable) vis-a-vie the mission , after all if either side will be unhappy with the commision's composition or mandate before it starts its work its findings will never have the respectability they need to have in order to be effective !
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Than why didn't they have any persons with military background on the team, prior to Israel's objections? Someone who will actually be qualified to judge what happened. The answer is obvious. Because from day one, this whole thing was set up as a trap.
Comments
Like I and others have said again and again: What is the title of this thread? Surprised that we talk about Israel and Palestine here?
But okay Mika Pleeeasee tell us what kind of unconscious things that are going on according to you.
Last time it was something about someone testing Israel. Is it God you mean?
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
If Israel has nothing to hide, then what the hell is the problem?
--
What they want is a group to come in, see dead old women in demolished homes and say, "Perfectly acceptable military action."
<strong>Damned biased UN folks will bring in more Palestinian dead bodies from other places. Fie on them! </strong><hr></blockquote>
No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.
Just like they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
Like I and others have said again and again: What is the title of this thread? Surprised that we talk about Israel and Palestine here?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.
mika.
<strong>
No. I'm not surprised at all. I've come to expect as much from you duplicitous hypocrites. The fact that we have 1000+ posts concerning this subject, and zero posts (before I posted) concerning the 2,000,000 dead and thousands being sold into slavery, speaks for itself, and just confirms my suspicions about you people.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) So what is your suspicion about us then?
2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)
<strong>
No. What they'll do is turn a bind eye when the Arabs do it.
Just like when they did on Southern Lebanon border, when the Hezbollah dressed in UN uniforms abducted three of our soldiers under the camera of a real UN crew. Of-course the UN denied that such a thing occurred. But the truth eventually surfaced.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
You guys have to admit Mika has a point here ... I pretty much disagree with him on most stuff he says but the Leanese border story is true and well documented ( was a hugh embarrasment for the UN and Anan few monthes ago )and the fact you guys never heard about it proves another point. the UN isn't all just and innocent as the recent resignation of the whole Dutch government remindes us... UN representatives are people with nationalities they have their own agenda and interests.....
There is a reason for Israel not letting the UN team in yet ( although is has originaly welcomed its formation) the Israeli demands are totaly reasonable and have been approved by the UN who then backtracked on the agrement
How is Israeli claims unreasonable ?
Groovrat ?
Anders ?
anyone ?
I would be happy to get details
<strong>
1) So what is your suspicion about us then?
2) Apparently there is nothing to argue about concerning the other conflicts mentioned here. I´ll bet 30 mixed Carlsbergs and Tuborgs that we all agree more or less on those issues here. So what should we do? Make a lot of "I agree" posts? But I have´t seen you make a new thread about these conflicts either. AFAIK you have only posted in one thread in the entire forum that wasn´t about Israel (something about network or DCHP server or ...?)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. That?s why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>
I would be happy to get details
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.
<strong>
I'm not one to stick my nose into other people's business. This subject relates to me personally, and that's why I post. If it didn't relate to me personally, I doubt I would have posted. That?s why I find it so suspicious that you're so fixated with this subject.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.
Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?
<strong>
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right!
And what happens when some US soldiers get killed by Arabs. Groverat and his like will be there to blame us, and say it?s all Israel?s fault. Just like he blames us for 9/11. Great idea! I guess you never did learn the lessons from Beirut. Americans don't have the stomach for this. It they shouldn't. It's not really their problem.
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
But I think US will recognise its worth the risk. I know we are. And a plan build on the arab suggestion (which essentially is 242 plus recognision by the arab states) will make it more clear cut.
And I know the arab states wouldn´t like american troops but under UN rule and combined with scandinavian and other more neutral PK troops they would have to accept.
And again it is their problem. alone the number of UN resolutions makes it their (and every countries) problem.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
<strong>
Its not just your buisness. Its everyones. Sorry Mika but the time where you could claim "internal affairs" and thus keep people out is over.
Israel relates to me personally also, I have Israeli friends (and family far out) that I care about. I would like one day to ride my bike from Haifa to Eilat in safety in a country in peace with its neigbours. Beside a country claiming to be a democracy having a large minority inside the boarders of its control living with a lot less rights than the majority is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Uhh ?!?!
Israel has been front page news since the day of it?s inception. If an Israeli politician picks his f***ing nose, it?s in every television set in the world.
And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in ?safety?, Israel should give up it?s right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.
mika.
What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.
This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.
You're very taxing on the patience.
<strong>
And because a shmuck like you feels he wants to ride his bike from Haifa to Eilat in ?safety?, Israel should give up it?s right. Man, if I could come over and kick you in face, I would.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Elegantly ignoring the other reasons why its my concern <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
If you have to have everything litterally let me spell it out for you: Me riding my bike from one end of Israel to the other without any worry = Israel in a condition where it can worry about other things that who is going to get blown up in a cafe next time, trading with its neigbours, not opressing people within its boarders. In other words a country where its youth doesn´t have go give years of its life to the military in a conflict most people want solved in a peaceful manner and having enough sparetime to go and enjoy the beautiful country they live in and visit Sharm el Sheikh and Petra in their friendly neighbouring countries without any fear
*edit*
And "shmuck" and "kick you in face" right back at you bro´ <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
<strong>
Even though I am very fond of UN they also make HUGE mistakes from time to time. And the handling of the Leanese border insident was VERY bad (and BTW gave a lot of press at the time here). We have to realise that UN is no stronger than its member nations and you have to learn from experiences like this. If it ever came to employing UN forces into the area you had to be very carefull from which nations they came. I would prefer US (because they are trusted from Israel and because I would trust them to be more neutral than a lot of other countries) and Scandinavia (have a lot of experience from "hot peace keeping" in ex-Jugoslavia and know when to show and use brutal force and when not to and have never had own agendas from their own governments). It would be a good mix since at least danish and US military have experience in coorporation from Jugoslavia and the risk of national agendas is less when more countries coorporate. AFAIK the only time US troops have been under a foreign commanders rule was in jugoslavia by a dane.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough I agree with that whole heartedly !
I think that what israel is doing now with the fact finding mission is exactly what you say re being mega careful what exactly this mission can and can't do and how it proposes to do that .... nothing's wrong with that me thinks.... I also think groovrat's allegations and pre-assumptions ( him being judge, jury, and executioner for Israel and assuming everything is a coverup)
is unfair and not based on the facts of the story...
.... is a responsibility of mine as a democrat.
And beside that I am concerned with a lot of other issues in IR: The right-winged racist movements in Europe, Fascism in China, what the "war against terrorism" means for the future of IR, International agreements on enviromental and international law issues etc. But right now in this thread its about Israel and Palestine so lets stick to that okay?
Right. We already know what happens to people when they place their security in the hands of Arabs and "democtracts" such as you.
<a href="http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html"; target="_blank">http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html</a>;
mika.
[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>Lame attempts at obfuscation here.
What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory.
This thread is about a very specific topic, but you drag it out into all arenas so no reasonable discussion on the subject can be had.
You're very taxing on the patience.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No mate, YOU are very taxing on the patience <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
The wrong UN team could do enormous damage to Israel in Jenin just like it does in Lebanon.
They could ignore the fact that these were terrorists Israel was fighting there ... It can ignore the fact that this is an armed struggle which by its very nature leads to casualties...
it can Ignore the fact that It was the Palestinian millitants who choose to hide among innocent civilians and boobytrap the entire refugee camp ( did you know that every day they get 3-4 explosions there while trying to clear the rubble out)...
This is not about wheather Israel was justified in attacking Jenin or not .. this is not a political mission sent to solve the area's problmes the groovrat way. its a mission with a simple mandate: to investigate wheather there was an Israeli masscare performed against 500 civilians in jenin as the Palestinians claim.
there is nothing wrong with BOTH sides to insist on their demands ( as long as they are reasonable) vis-a-vie the mission , after all if either side will be unhappy with the commision's composition or mandate before it starts its work its findings will never have the respectability they need to have in order to be effective !
<strong>Lame attempts at obfuscation here.
What harm would UN officials do in Jenin?
Your absolutely idiotic assertion that they would consciously overlook Arab crimes cannot apply to the situation in Jenin, because it was an Israeli offensive in Palestinian territory. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Than why didn't they have any persons with military background on the team, prior to Israel's objections? Someone who will actually be qualified to judge what happened. The answer is obvious. Because from day one, this whole thing was set up as a trap.
mika.
This means none of them use Macs :eek: .......... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
How can we ever have peace ????
<strong>You know what really gets me ? the fact we haven't seen any Arabs or Palestinians on any of these debates...
This means none of them use Macs :eek: .......... <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
How can we ever have peace ????
I think anders alluded to that earlier. Macs are the Jews of the world. We all know how that story will end. Only 95% to go.
mika.