Apple Screwed Up By Choosing Aesthetics Over Functionality, They're Attempting To Appease The Masses Until They Can Re-Engineer A Real Solution, and Pointing Out (alleged) Issues With Competing Handsets Doesn't Help..
Note: Rubber Bandages To Cover Up The Flaw Is Not A Real Solution -
This is all too funny. Apple's antenna design has inadvertently shown a problem with all cell phones that most people were unaware of, and so the other guys are all like "WHADAYA DOIN THAT FOOOR?"
The RIM phone is released to the public so therefore it's game. I saw the phone being held normally and the bars go down to one. That's all there is to it.
But a major topic was the effect on data, voice quality, etc. They didn't touch on that. If you're happy with a slight glazing over of the issue, that's you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aestival
Seriously? -- these other companies were all too happy to make gratuitous references to Apple's bad press, so good on Apple for making it clear that the others have problems too. As for the technical side, this issue long ago became a media issue rather than a technical issue (a technical issue that is trivially solved by using a case on your smartphone was never a real issue anyway).
I spoke only of RIM. When did RIM say something? Seems like you were personally affected by this bad press on the iphone for some reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkybrain
This is unscientific but:
I live in a fringe area. I have tried various grips with a BB Curve, a Motorola W385, a 3GS and a 4. The death grip on the 4 drops 24 db and the indication changes to no service from 5 bars (pre-patch ios4). The curve, the 385, and the 3GS all will maintain a call connection.
If I use a bumper on the 4 or wear a glove, it gives the best connection and audio quality of the group. Lowest noise, no artifacts. Great phone. Just don't hold it in your hand in a secure manner.
Point is: of course a persons body and hands are going to affect signal strength. The Apple antenna problem is extreme and was totally avoidable. Observed on the 4: 24 db loss. On the 3GS: 5 db (actually a 3 to 5 db gain if you turn the phone upside down).
So, I think it is valid to say that Apple still likes to deflect and deny instead of just manning up. But what the hay, at least they are addressing the problem.
I'd say they solved it. It may not be the resolution expected, but I don't think this is their final solution for the iphone 4. I think the september 30th date was given for a reason, they're clearly still evaluating what to do. At the end of the day, putting a "band-aid" on a phone that otherwise is excellent to fix issues in fringe areas isn't a huge deal to me. If it were a crappy phone, I'd think otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LighteningKid
I can understand that they would be upset Apple is calling them out when consumers obviously haven't had significant problems (since we didn't hear about death-grips until Apple pointed to them). At the same time, Steve Jobs did say that he didn't think it would have been such an issue because all phones do it, and if he hadn't proved it, there'd be more trouble. Nokia, especially, has almost no right to be upset since they were making fun of Apple for it.
RIM did sort of get dragged into this, but a consumer who takes even a moment to think will realize Apple isn't insulting RIM - if RIM has the same bar drop but no one noticed before, it means phones can still work with some attenuation (or de-tuning, or what-have-you) so Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, maybe parts of the media really did blow this out of proportion. They're simply proving this is a common issue; they aren't dragging anyone through mud.
That's a really simple way to fix their woes, however. The iphone seems to be more sensitive than the other phones. To say "all phones have signal loss when held, but our new model has more than our old model" doesn't sound so good. They still told the truth, just didn't bother to expand upon it. That said, it is impressive how it holds on to signal even in these fringe areas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtDecoDalek
The amount of the signal drop, by itself, doesn't say ANYTHING. If the antenna is more sensitive to begin with, and then loses more signal when partially blocked, it can still end up more, or as, sensitive as a phone with an antenna that is less sensitive to begin with. The conclusion that Apple came to when testing the external antenna, that the net result was more performant, is born out by the return/dropped call rate for iPhone 4.
They actually claimed the drop call rate was higher than the 3gs. Not sure how accurate that is though, as either phone might have more or less since I'm pretty much positive most people don't report every dropped call. That would be a hassle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Surf Monkey
Hogwash. Apple actually did exactly the right thing. They put the other manufacturers on their heels. It's obvious that many smart phones show the EXACT same behavior as the iPhone 4. Pretending that this is just an Apple problem is just as idiotic as pretending that there is no problem whatsoever. Apple's decision to show how the death grip works on other manufacturer's hardware is exactly what any good marketing department would do: Put the rest of the industry on the defensive.
They show similar behavior but to a less degree. Nobody noteworthy said it was just an apple issue, but many did note that when it does happen with the iphone 4 it is more substantial, even than the 3gs. Plus, they dodged the question about how it happens with a single touch at times and didn't test that either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuniverse
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
I'm talking about RIM. RIM has nothing to do with Motorola or Nokia's jabs. Did you read what I said?
Apple Screwed Up By Choosing Aesthetics Over Functionality, They're Attempting To Appease The Masses Until They Can Re-Engineer A Real Solution, and Pointing Out (alleged) Issues With Competing Handsets Doesn't Help..
Note: Rubber Bandages To Cover Up The Flaw Is Not A Real Solution -
Bottom line is that there would be even more whiners like you whining because design sucks and nobody would care that it can receive calls from jupiter.
First did not believe this, but then I tried losing reception on a Razr (not even a smartphone) and after gripping the chin (though I gotta say is not a very natural grip) I was able to drive it down from 5 to zero bars in about 20 seconds.
After holding iPhone 4 I have to say that my pinky and finger before it automatically lie on different sides of the antenna separation line so I don't think I would have any issues.
Also it's funny how nokia stated that they are "pioneers of internal antenna design". I was laughing pretty hard.
Bottom line is that there would be even more whiners like you whining because design sucks and nobody would care that it can receive calls from jupiter.
I'm not 'whining' in the least...the Situation Simply Is As it Stands, and only you and your' ilk appear to be all bent out of shape about it, even resorting to profanity/personal insults as you really have no logical/rational arguing platform -
I'm not 'whining' in the least...the Situation Simply Is As it Stands, and only you and your' ilk appear to be all bent out of shape about it, even resorting to profanity/personal insults as you really have no logical/rational arguing platform -
They show similar behavior but to a less degree. Nobody noteworthy said it was just an apple issue, but many did note that when it does happen with the iphone 4 it is more substantial, even than the 3gs. Plus, they dodged the question about how it happens with a single touch at times and didn't test that either.
I don't see any evidence to back up this assertion, and plenty of evidence that contradicts it. Near as I can tell, the iPhone 4 exhibits behavior that is essentially the same as what is observed on many other phones.
My point stands. Apple did the right thing by putting the rest of the industry on the defensive.
Hey, if you're gonna notify us about a personal attack, don't quote the damn thing in your own post.
Sometimes a reported post is quoted just in case the violator recognized the error and deleted the post.
Note: ...and wouldn't the courteous/professional thing to do have been to send a PM, or was it your intention to draw public attention to the individual who reported the violation?
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
I thought that pretty much turned out to be driver error. Didn't the NHSTA report that the engine computer logs mostly show the accelerator was usually mashed and the brake pedal unpressed? ECMs record roughly a minute (or 30, 45 seconds, somewhere in there) of operational data during a crash, which is useful for forensic analysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
De-tuning is not attenuation.
No, but the former can result in the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
The videos of their phones don't lie.
I think it's possible to fake that by raising a large RF reflecting panel behind the camera, point the camera away from the tower. However, it would be a very bad idea to do so, from a PR and legal liability perspective.
I had no idea that modern phones were so sensitive, my old feature phones didn't seem to do anything like that, they could get a signal through gaps in metal siding, little bits of flesh was nothing. One that I used for 6 years had an external extendable antenna though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuniverse
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
Nokia did, I don't remember Samsung or RIM doing it. I thought the presentation was very respectful, there were no aspersions cast as to the quality of the radio or antenna design. The only question mark for me was Steve pointing to the line and saying it was supposed to be an indicator of where NOT to touch, such a thing was not made known before the presentation. I did not find such a mention in the paperwork shipped with my iPhone 4. I also question the sensibility of designing the phone such that the weak spot is in an area commonly touched when holding the phone. That said, it wasn't a problem for me, and I live in a weak signal area.
The iPhone 4 is the only phone that can go from 5 bars to 0 bars with the touch of a single finger at a small part of the case.
Apple is right to be criticized for this obvious design flaw. This is not standard attenuation.
Increased antenna performance design, but X marks the spot where you will decrease its superior performance if you bridge it. Small effort on the part of the user to avoid dropped calls in low bandwidth areas.
Comments
Apple is right to be criticized for this obvious design flaw. This is not standard attenuation.
http://www.change.org/petitions/view...d_9700_antenna
The iPhone 4 is the only phone that can go from 5 bars to 0 bars with the touch of a single finger at a small part of the case.
Apple is right to be criticized for this obvious design flaw. This is not standard attenuation.
No doubt. but Nokia has issues of its own--
http://www.electronista.com/articles...to.stop.apple/
No doubt. but Nokia has issues of its own--
http://www.electronista.com/articles...to.stop.apple/
Making brick phones for 20 years. This had to to stop someday.
Apple Screwed Up By Choosing Aesthetics Over Functionality, They're Attempting To Appease The Masses Until They Can Re-Engineer A Real Solution, and Pointing Out (alleged) Issues With Competing Handsets Doesn't Help..
Note: Rubber Bandages To Cover Up The Flaw Is Not A Real Solution -
No doubt. but Nokia has issues of its own--
http://www.electronista.com/articles...to.stop.apple/
... That have nothing to do with the iPhone's design flaw.
What evidence do you have that iPhone db drop is higher than norm?
None. You are merely an irrational koolade drinking hater.
Why is this the automatic assumption to anything not "pro-apple" here? I'm assuming you missed the anandtech review EVERYONE else on this forum saw
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3794/t...one-4-review/2
The RIM phone is released to the public so therefore it's game. I saw the phone being held normally and the bars go down to one. That's all there is to it.
But a major topic was the effect on data, voice quality, etc. They didn't touch on that. If you're happy with a slight glazing over of the issue, that's you.
Seriously? -- these other companies were all too happy to make gratuitous references to Apple's bad press, so good on Apple for making it clear that the others have problems too. As for the technical side, this issue long ago became a media issue rather than a technical issue (a technical issue that is trivially solved by using a case on your smartphone was never a real issue anyway).
I spoke only of RIM. When did RIM say something? Seems like you were personally affected by this bad press on the iphone for some reason.
This is unscientific but:
I live in a fringe area. I have tried various grips with a BB Curve, a Motorola W385, a 3GS and a 4. The death grip on the 4 drops 24 db and the indication changes to no service from 5 bars (pre-patch ios4). The curve, the 385, and the 3GS all will maintain a call connection.
If I use a bumper on the 4 or wear a glove, it gives the best connection and audio quality of the group. Lowest noise, no artifacts. Great phone. Just don't hold it in your hand in a secure manner.
Point is: of course a persons body and hands are going to affect signal strength. The Apple antenna problem is extreme and was totally avoidable. Observed on the 4: 24 db loss. On the 3GS: 5 db (actually a 3 to 5 db gain if you turn the phone upside down).
So, I think it is valid to say that Apple still likes to deflect and deny instead of just manning up. But what the hay, at least they are addressing the problem.
I'd say they solved it. It may not be the resolution expected, but I don't think this is their final solution for the iphone 4. I think the september 30th date was given for a reason, they're clearly still evaluating what to do. At the end of the day, putting a "band-aid" on a phone that otherwise is excellent to fix issues in fringe areas isn't a huge deal to me. If it were a crappy phone, I'd think otherwise.
I can understand that they would be upset Apple is calling them out when consumers obviously haven't had significant problems (since we didn't hear about death-grips until Apple pointed to them). At the same time, Steve Jobs did say that he didn't think it would have been such an issue because all phones do it, and if he hadn't proved it, there'd be more trouble. Nokia, especially, has almost no right to be upset since they were making fun of Apple for it.
RIM did sort of get dragged into this, but a consumer who takes even a moment to think will realize Apple isn't insulting RIM - if RIM has the same bar drop but no one noticed before, it means phones can still work with some attenuation (or de-tuning, or what-have-you) so Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, maybe parts of the media really did blow this out of proportion. They're simply proving this is a common issue; they aren't dragging anyone through mud.
That's a really simple way to fix their woes, however. The iphone seems to be more sensitive than the other phones. To say "all phones have signal loss when held, but our new model has more than our old model" doesn't sound so good. They still told the truth, just didn't bother to expand upon it. That said, it is impressive how it holds on to signal even in these fringe areas.
The amount of the signal drop, by itself, doesn't say ANYTHING. If the antenna is more sensitive to begin with, and then loses more signal when partially blocked, it can still end up more, or as, sensitive as a phone with an antenna that is less sensitive to begin with. The conclusion that Apple came to when testing the external antenna, that the net result was more performant, is born out by the return/dropped call rate for iPhone 4.
They actually claimed the drop call rate was higher than the 3gs. Not sure how accurate that is though, as either phone might have more or less since I'm pretty much positive most people don't report every dropped call. That would be a hassle.
Hogwash. Apple actually did exactly the right thing. They put the other manufacturers on their heels. It's obvious that many smart phones show the EXACT same behavior as the iPhone 4. Pretending that this is just an Apple problem is just as idiotic as pretending that there is no problem whatsoever. Apple's decision to show how the death grip works on other manufacturer's hardware is exactly what any good marketing department would do: Put the rest of the industry on the defensive.
They show similar behavior but to a less degree. Nobody noteworthy said it was just an apple issue, but many did note that when it does happen with the iphone 4 it is more substantial, even than the 3gs. Plus, they dodged the question about how it happens with a single touch at times and didn't test that either.
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
I'm talking about RIM. RIM has nothing to do with Motorola or Nokia's jabs. Did you read what I said?
Bottom Line:
Apple Screwed Up By Choosing Aesthetics Over Functionality, They're Attempting To Appease The Masses Until They Can Re-Engineer A Real Solution, and Pointing Out (alleged) Issues With Competing Handsets Doesn't Help..
Note: Rubber Bandages To Cover Up The Flaw Is Not A Real Solution -
Bottom line is that there would be even more whiners like you whining because design sucks and nobody would care that it can receive calls from jupiter.
After holding iPhone 4 I have to say that my pinky and finger before it automatically lie on different sides of the antenna separation line so I don't think I would have any issues.
Also it's funny how nokia stated that they are "pioneers of internal antenna design". I was laughing pretty hard.
Bottom line is that there would be even more whiners like you whining because design sucks and nobody would care that it can receive calls from jupiter.
I'm not 'whining' in the least...the Situation Simply Is As it Stands, and only you and your' ilk appear to be all bent out of shape about it, even resorting to profanity/personal insults as you really have no logical/rational arguing platform -
We haven't found a way around the laws of physics yet.
If Nokia and RIM have, then correct me, but if not, Apple was right.
I'm not 'whining' in the least...the Situation Simply Is As it Stands, and only you and your' ilk appear to be all bent out of shape about it, even resorting to profanity/personal insults as you really have no logical/rational arguing platform -
Right. My heart bleeds.
They show similar behavior but to a less degree. Nobody noteworthy said it was just an apple issue, but many did note that when it does happen with the iphone 4 it is more substantial, even than the 3gs. Plus, they dodged the question about how it happens with a single touch at times and didn't test that either.
I don't see any evidence to back up this assertion, and plenty of evidence that contradicts it. Near as I can tell, the iPhone 4 exhibits behavior that is essentially the same as what is observed on many other phones.
My point stands. Apple did the right thing by putting the rest of the industry on the defensive.
Jobs exposed the industry's dirty little secret and now RIM and Nokia are crying about it. They need to fess-up too.
I think we just have some poor losers, Gizmodo, out there that want to take Apple down a few notches if they can.
Damn straight ! - I know nothings perfect but Glass houses and stones .....
I liked the challenge to the whole industry, make antennas better. That's just one of the things the industry needs to do
Hey, if you're gonna notify us about a personal attack, don't quote the damn thing in your own post.
Sometimes a reported post is quoted just in case the violator recognized the error and deleted the post.
Note: ...and wouldn't the courteous/professional thing to do have been to send a PM, or was it your intention to draw public attention to the individual who reported the violation?
Demand Apple bring back Field Test Mode in the next iOS 4 update.
http://www.wpsantennas.com/pdf/testm...dTestModes.pdf
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
I thought that pretty much turned out to be driver error. Didn't the NHSTA report that the engine computer logs mostly show the accelerator was usually mashed and the brake pedal unpressed? ECMs record roughly a minute (or 30, 45 seconds, somewhere in there) of operational data during a crash, which is useful for forensic analysis.
De-tuning is not attenuation.
No, but the former can result in the latter.
The videos of their phones don't lie.
I think it's possible to fake that by raising a large RF reflecting panel behind the camera, point the camera away from the tower. However, it would be a very bad idea to do so, from a PR and legal liability perspective.
I had no idea that modern phones were so sensitive, my old feature phones didn't seem to do anything like that, they could get a signal through gaps in metal siding, little bits of flesh was nothing. One that I used for 6 years had an external extendable antenna though.
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
Nokia did, I don't remember Samsung or RIM doing it. I thought the presentation was very respectful, there were no aspersions cast as to the quality of the radio or antenna design. The only question mark for me was Steve pointing to the line and saying it was supposed to be an indicator of where NOT to touch, such a thing was not made known before the presentation. I did not find such a mention in the paperwork shipped with my iPhone 4. I also question the sensibility of designing the phone such that the weak spot is in an area commonly touched when holding the phone. That said, it wasn't a problem for me, and I live in a weak signal area.
The iPhone 4 is the only phone that can go from 5 bars to 0 bars with the touch of a single finger at a small part of the case.
Apple is right to be criticized for this obvious design flaw. This is not standard attenuation.
Increased antenna performance design, but X marks the spot where you will decrease its superior performance if you bridge it. Small effort on the part of the user to avoid dropped calls in low bandwidth areas.