Imagine the same (absurd) situation here in America...US Army tanks and bulldozers demolishing the homes, businesses, police stations, farms and villages of those who are unapproved? I wonder if such folk would react violently, or would they just obediently take it up the backside and succumb to the edict "this is your lot, like it or get out of town"?
Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.
<strong>Well you obviously are aware of the allegations,and I don't believe they are simply the made up fantasies of dodgy web sites,and I don't believe that Peres deserved a Nobel Peace Prize,nor do I believe Arafat did,neither of them are men of peace.I don't enjoy becoming wound up about Israel at all,I'm bringing this up because I believe the actions of the Israeli government are wrong,I'm against killing and hate by anybody,whether its by Jews,Arabs,Nazis, or the US government,you haven't read some of my other threads.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO, I am unaware of any allegations ! please enlighten me ! Facts please !
It seems pathetic and sad to me that you simply sit there throwing accusations around unwilling to point me to any evidence or even to where you got the idea [that Peres] is a war criminal from !
I thought that recourse to the truth is the one of the basic elements of a fair and free liberal society... back your points up if you can .. i would love for you to teach me something I don't know ...
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>Imagine the same (absurd) situation here in America...US Army tanks and bulldozers demolishing the homes, businesses, police stations, farms and villages of those who are unapproved? I wonder if such folk would react violently, or would they just obediently take it up the backside and succumb to the edict "this is your lot, like it or get out of town"?
Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me, but, What are you talking about ?
Isn't the US bombing the shit out of Afghanistan in retaliation of the 911 attacks ? is it not justified to defend one's self against someone who want's to kill.
How is your example relevant at all to what's happening between Israelis and Palestinians ?
..... Its just really funny how no one here seems capable of addressing the truth or even debating it ..... whenever I post a reasoned response stating facts people just ignore it and instead I get those 'Israel is a barbarian Aparthide state and Sharon is a murderer' type posts..... I really like challenging this hypocrisy....
Guys ... lets see you get into a real debate .... New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... lets see you people stand up for what you say so readily ......
I guess this is the basic point of this thread ....... If your opinions of what Israel is doing are rational how come you won't base them on facts and reason ?
and if they aren't reasoned opinions but just impressions you got from wherever, is it possible you are being racist about this ? relishing the opportunity to finally look at the jews in disdain.... after so many years when it was such a taboo, unconsciously thinking- 'the jews were always the bloody victims but finally we can forget that and have a go at them'.
Just a thought ...i'm not blaming anyone .. I'm just wondering out loud ......
<strong>New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Grrr. What about me?
[quote]That was relevant before the Oslo deal was signed, then Israel was seriously wrong and EVIL but in 1992 Rabin was elected and the peace process begun and since then Israelis have been trying to fix the wrong they have done ...until the intefada erupted ! also most Palestinians are not under Israeli rule since then.... they are under the PA... a 'very liberal and civil government'
<hr></blockquote>
I would never say that PA is liberal or civil. I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start. Large (most?) areas was still controlled by Israel and any development of a real (economically) independent Palestine was impossible. If you wanted to go from one place in the west bank to another you would be controlled several times by Israeli military posts. That doesn´t give you the impression of living in a independent area.You have to have a coherent area of control and a credible assurance of stability before anyone will invest in Palestine and the people of Palestine can become economically independent of Israel.
And after Oslo things didn´t just went nicely along up until some cracy palesitinians started the the current intifada. Rabin showed a lot of courage when signing the Oslo agreement (and him, de Klerk and Khatami are my political heroes) but since then Israeli leaders have not wanted to take the tough decision regarding settlements for instance (I think I read somewhere that the most active periode regarding building settlements was in the 90´s but I am not sure about that). When I was in Israel in 98´ the general feeling among Israelis was that they were building peace with the palestinians, the economy was good and everything went the right way. But among palestinians the feeling was that nothing real happened and the settlements continued. I would agree that PA had a great deal of responsibility but also the Israeli government must take responsibility.
[quote]There is a huge difference between a warped system of racist laws ( like in SA or Nazi Germany) and temporary state of military occupation. There were laws in the OT under military rule as well and they wrn' t racist laws....<hr></blockquote>
The difference for the palestinian that was stopped at checkpoints while Israelis could move freely was/is minimal. And for most palestinians the temporary state has lasted for their whole life.
[quote]anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947<hr></blockquote>
1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab coutries aren´t the responsibility of the palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.
2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.
[quote]Israel is a land of the Jews not by choice but because its has been proved to be the only measure that would guaranty the Jew's survival. <hr></blockquote>
IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?
[quote]Sorry Anders but on this point you are totally wrong its the Palestinians who are far more dependent on Israeli jobs ... Israel's economy is in problems not because of the lack of Palestinian work force but because the fighting and the terror and especially the world IT recession etc... Israel can cope very well without Palestinian workers ( It has been for over 2 years now ) its certainly not like it was (and still is BTW) in SA where all of the Production, agricaltural and mining jobs were being done by blacks and the economy would crumble without that system, its not even close to that structure. <hr></blockquote>
Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occations of suiside bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
Sorry Love, off course you count as well , you two are my Scandinavian love twins ...
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
____________________________
quote:anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947
______________________________
1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab countries aren't´t the responsibility of the Palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.
2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn't´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple.
why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.
2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn't´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occasions of suicide bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.
I can see that the difference between us is smaller than I thought. The main difference is that I look at the situation from each perons point of view in my argumentation both in claming the similarity between Israel and SA and the jews situation.
[quote]It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate. <hr></blockquote>
The only difference here is that I see it as shared (50/50) responsibility. I know it was a difficult for Israel not to react harder to suicide bombs in the mid 90´s but the non development in the peace process gave PA the argument to hide the corruption behind. With a real area to control PA would lack the argument against Israel and be forced to and have the actual ability to create a state focused on their own development instead of the constant clash with Israel military. The situation we have today is a product of Israel and PA actions between Oslo and 1999.
[quote] It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple. why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.<hr></blockquote>
If any individuals make claim against the saudi government I would support it. Its that simple. A general "Wrong was done to jews in arab countries so wrong was done to US" I can´t support, especially not when it is used to put "justify" the action of Israel. Bad was done to individuals and that cannot be used by a country to justify its actions against a non related group of other individuals.
[quote]2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense. <hr></blockquote>
I wouldn´t put all the blame on Israel but for the palestinian in the occupied area the difference is minimal. And I would not call it a calculated system but nonetheless the result was a system as I described and for the individual palestinian the difference between a calculated system and one that emerge from other dynamics is minimal. The result is the same for him/her.
[quote]That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !<hr></blockquote>
Parts of my family (those who lived in other parts of Europe) were killed in german camps too. The family on my mothers side is of jewish origin and I know the history of the jews.But persecution is a personally thing. Today homosexsuals are persecuted more than jews and that counts more for me than what happened to our grandparents. You don´t suffer personally from what happened to your family generations ago. It may sound harsh but try turn it around: Should the young germans feel guilty of what their forefathers did to the Jews, communists et al? Again: what counts for me is the personal experience
today. not what happened to people now dead. Another story is that right wasn´t done to those suffered from Nazi germany. The compensation given in these years to the children is given to the wrong generation 50 years too late. Esp. those money given to jewish organisations is wrong and stupid and supports organisations those dead may not even have wanted to support.
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>
Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again what benefit Israel gain is of less interest for me. Its what implication it have for the palestinians that concerns me. Unfortunetly I can only give you anedoctic(sp sucks) evidence of companies closing down when the palestinian work force wasn´t available. Again: it wasn´t calculated somewhere that the economic system should develop to this but it did.
I know the debate's moved on since my last post here but I feel obliged to "reason" with Rashumon; he's still looking for someone to come up with a good reason to call Sharon a war criminal apparently, and it behoves me to put the guy out of his misery.
I've skirted around it in another post, but here it is. Sabra. Chatilla. And I repeat, it was an Israeli enquiry that found the guy culpable.
Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. It was in September 1982 when Sharon, as the head of an occupying force and responsible for the security of those under his governance under Protocol One of the Geneva Convention allowed (Israeli-trained, equipped and logistically supported) Phalange militants into those refugee camps. He had held (very public) talks with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustan, the leaders of these militia groups, days before the massacres. He could not possibly have been in any doubt about their feelings or their intended actions. He let them in, and the Israeli army let no-one out of the camps. They sealed those camps off, and they let the Christians in. The aim was, I believe, to crush the last of the infrastructure of the PLO.
It lasted for days. The morgues and the hospitals filled up. He could not possibly have been ignorant. Thousands of women and children died, and you can't pretend they were all terrorists. There were lines of men shot in the back, women raped, you know the drill.
The facts are well documented, incontrovertible, and even (generally) agreed upon by the Israeli committee that found your man (what was it?) "loosely culpable," or something like that.
He should be on trial.
And... and... and... PCKilla asking Rashumon to calm down, "these guys are only in it for the sport". This from a man who posted on a public forum that Arabs are "barbarians" and that Arab contributions to sciences, medicine and mathematics are "propaganda." Chill: they're only looking for sport.
Well forgive me if I come looking for "sport", and I am angry, but I've seen a man here making accusations of racism, conspiracy and hypocrisy that simply don't apply as far as he's concerned when it comes to Muslims. And... and... and... oh forget it.
Last points.
Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.
You may not agree with the proposition that Israel resembles an Apartheid state, but you can't dismiss the argument as "rhetoric" or "propaganda". You've argued the points rationally yourself with your own facts and you know what? I don't agree with your facts either.
(edited because I accidentally implied Peres should be on trial for war crimes.)
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
so sending 16 year old girls strapped with explosive belts on mass murder campaigns would qualify you as? civilized ?
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.
Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, ? so cuz, now you are a mind reader.
I'll remind you it was ARABS and arabs only, that did the killings in those camps. That time it was Christian Arabs. But what do you suppose was their reason? I mean why would they turn so on their loving Muslim brothers?
Not a mind reader, no, but you don't need to be a telepath to conclude that they were hardly the actions of a civilised man. And as we all know, two wrongs don't make a right: I'm not defending the suicide bombers for one moment. But like I said, no more or no less civilised than the actions of your own President 20 years ago. If there's a barbarian competition going on, your own President's in the running. He's up there. Don't defend what he did retrospectively.
The murderers were Arabs but they couldn't have done what they did without the complicity of the Israeli army.
And I followed your link. Er... how dare you? If I were vile enough to suggest that the Jewish people had been suffering for so long that they must be doing something to deserve it, I would deserve to be locked out of this site for good. I would be accused of anti-semitism, quite rightly, and I would be a terrible, terrible man. And all of a sudden it's different when it's Muslims.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
So let me understand you, nothing on that site is true?
Now I don?t expect you to follow Israeli politics all too closely, but if you did, you?d know that that enquiry was a Bolshevik tactic of the Israeli left designed to send Sharon into political exile. (A trick they?ve used many a time, including on our former PM Binyamin Netanyahu). And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon ?culpable?, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.
You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the ?500 civilian massacre? in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.
Special Ingredient For Jewish Holidays is Human Blood From Non-Jewish Youth
"I chose to [speak] about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."
"During this holiday, the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets."
"Unfortunately, this filling cannot be left out, or substituted with any alternative serving the same purpose. For this holiday, the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. In other words, the practice cannot be carried out as required if human blood is not spilled!!"
The article was published by the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam
So let me understand you, nothing on that site is true?
I can hardly deny it. But that doesn't absolve anyone of the masssacre. It's no excuse, those people didn't deserve to die, and Sharon thought it was politically expedient that they did. That's why he let it happen. Those people didn't deserve that simply because of their faith. No-one deserves to die because of their faith. Not even Muslims.
And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon ?culpable?, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.
'Culpable' is word that means "guilty, criminal, deserving punishment." (Oxford English Dictionary.) Ignore the eye-witness reports, the journalism, the pages of testimony and the historical discussion that followed. It's still a fact of history: my man sanctioned those killings by arming the killers, doing nothing to stop them (Protocol One of the Geneva Convention) and preventing people escaping. Actually, this goes further than 'sanctioning'.
You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the ?500 civilian massacre? in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.
I don't know what a blood libel is, but as far as I can see, there's no libel of any kind here at all. These are proven facts so they cannot, by definition, be libellous.
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism. And your grounds? I have pointed out that your government might possibly have had a part to play in the escalation of the terrible violence in Palestine and Israel.
WOW. To say that Israel has sanctioned these killing *is* a blood libel. If you do not know what it means, you should have looked it up. Since you are capable in giving me an Oxford English Dictionary definition of the word "culpable", I know you are insincere, to phrase it mildly.
Even to suggest that Sharon is ?culpable? (your word not mine), is to suggest that the US and NATO for example, too are culpable for all the ethnic killings that occurred not too long ago in former Yugoslavia. That?s how far you need to stretch it. Would you like to suggest that they too have sanctioned these killings?
Also:
quote
I don't know what a blood libel is, but as far as I can see, there's no libel of any kind here at all. These are proven facts so they cannot, by definition, be libellous.
Is that why Sharon is now in court defending his name? Because there are proven facts that he had knowledge of the events?!
quote:
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism.
Why is it that you have to try so hard? Why is it so difficult for you to make that distinction?
quote:
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
So I suppose you are also unsure whether the contents of the article that was published by the columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, in the the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, are false either. How are the two examples different?
Comments
Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.
There is a reason for the kitchen being there
mika.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
mika.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>Well you obviously are aware of the allegations,and I don't believe they are simply the made up fantasies of dodgy web sites,and I don't believe that Peres deserved a Nobel Peace Prize,nor do I believe Arafat did,neither of them are men of peace.I don't enjoy becoming wound up about Israel at all,I'm bringing this up because I believe the actions of the Israeli government are wrong,I'm against killing and hate by anybody,whether its by Jews,Arabs,Nazis, or the US government,you haven't read some of my other threads.</strong><hr></blockquote>
NO, I am unaware of any allegations ! please enlighten me ! Facts please !
It seems pathetic and sad to me that you simply sit there throwing accusations around unwilling to point me to any evidence or even to where you got the idea [that Peres] is a war criminal from !
I thought that recourse to the truth is the one of the basic elements of a fair and free liberal society... back your points up if you can .. i would love for you to teach me something I don't know ...
<strong>Imagine the same (absurd) situation here in America...US Army tanks and bulldozers demolishing the homes, businesses, police stations, farms and villages of those who are unapproved? I wonder if such folk would react violently, or would they just obediently take it up the backside and succumb to the edict "this is your lot, like it or get out of town"?
Of course this godawful and insane situation should never happen here. We have, thank God (!), a secular government, and for ever may it remains so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Excuse me, but, What are you talking about ?
Isn't the US bombing the shit out of Afghanistan in retaliation of the 911 attacks ? is it not justified to defend one's self against someone who want's to kill.
How is your example relevant at all to what's happening between Israelis and Palestinians ?
Again I say Explain, Prove, and reason with me !
If you dare..... :cool:
these guys are just out for a sport...
tiraga benadam.
<strong>rashumon, don't take this so seriously..
these guys are just out for a sport...
tiraga benadam.
I know .....f...grrrrr
I'm cool.....
i'm chilled .....
fhjda......
Guys ... lets see you get into a real debate .... New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... lets see you people stand up for what you say so readily ......
I guess this is the basic point of this thread ....... If your opinions of what Israel is doing are rational how come you won't base them on facts and reason ?
and if they aren't reasoned opinions but just impressions you got from wherever, is it possible you are being racist about this ? relishing the opportunity to finally look at the jews in disdain.... after so many years when it was such a taboo, unconsciously thinking- 'the jews were always the bloody victims but finally we can forget that and have a go at them'.
Just a thought ...i'm not blaming anyone .. I'm just wondering out loud ......
<strong>New is the only one who has bothered to actually discuss things and answer points ... and in some cases he has made me think ... </strong><hr></blockquote>
Grrr. What about me?
[quote]That was relevant before the Oslo deal was signed, then Israel was seriously wrong and EVIL but in 1992 Rabin was elected and the peace process begun and since then Israelis have been trying to fix the wrong they have done ...until the intefada erupted ! also most Palestinians are not under Israeli rule since then.... they are under the PA... a 'very liberal and civil government'
<hr></blockquote>
I would never say that PA is liberal or civil. I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start. Large (most?) areas was still controlled by Israel and any development of a real (economically) independent Palestine was impossible. If you wanted to go from one place in the west bank to another you would be controlled several times by Israeli military posts. That doesn´t give you the impression of living in a independent area.You have to have a coherent area of control and a credible assurance of stability before anyone will invest in Palestine and the people of Palestine can become economically independent of Israel.
And after Oslo things didn´t just went nicely along up until some cracy palesitinians started the the current intifada. Rabin showed a lot of courage when signing the Oslo agreement (and him, de Klerk and Khatami are my political heroes) but since then Israeli leaders have not wanted to take the tough decision regarding settlements for instance (I think I read somewhere that the most active periode regarding building settlements was in the 90´s but I am not sure about that). When I was in Israel in 98´ the general feeling among Israelis was that they were building peace with the palestinians, the economy was good and everything went the right way. But among palestinians the feeling was that nothing real happened and the settlements continued. I would agree that PA had a great deal of responsibility but also the Israeli government must take responsibility.
[quote]There is a huge difference between a warped system of racist laws ( like in SA or Nazi Germany) and temporary state of military occupation. There were laws in the OT under military rule as well and they wrn' t racist laws....<hr></blockquote>
The difference for the palestinian that was stopped at checkpoints while Israelis could move freely was/is minimal. And for most palestinians the temporary state has lasted for their whole life.
[quote]anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947<hr></blockquote>
1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab coutries aren´t the responsibility of the palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.
2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.
[quote]Israel is a land of the Jews not by choice but because its has been proved to be the only measure that would guaranty the Jew's survival. <hr></blockquote>
IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?
[quote]Sorry Anders but on this point you are totally wrong its the Palestinians who are far more dependent on Israeli jobs ... Israel's economy is in problems not because of the lack of Palestinian work force but because the fighting and the terror and especially the world IT recession etc... Israel can cope very well without Palestinian workers ( It has been for over 2 years now ) its certainly not like it was (and still is BTW) in SA where all of the Production, agricaltural and mining jobs were being done by blacks and the economy would crumble without that system, its not even close to that structure. <hr></blockquote>
Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occations of suiside bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
<strong>
Grrr. What about me?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Love, off course you count as well , you two are my Scandinavian love twins ...
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I don´t hope I have given the impression of that. But the point is that the autonome areas was crippled from the start.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
____________________________
quote:anyway the military administration of the OT ended with the Oslo deal in 1993. What about those 800,000 jews who lost all their possessions and homes when they were kicked out of Arab countries in the 40s and 50s they can't go back or gain compensation for their loses? does that make all Arab lands Aparthide states as well ? and what about the millions of Muslim and Hindu Indians who lost their home during the partition time in India in 1947
______________________________
1) Like with other issues its not what we are discussion here. What happened in other arab countries aren't´t the responsibility of the Palestine stopped and controlled by military forces several times a day.
2) I would compare the tactics you describe to what went on in Germany in 33-35. It isn´t apartheid since they didn't´t use the continued suppression of one part of the population to the benefit of another.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
1. It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple.
why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.
2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
IMO Israel should never have been created but is a fact today. Jews could not point at the area that now is Israel and claim anything else than a religious connection to the area. They wasn't´t a majority in the area in the 30´s or 40´s and even Theodore Herzl talked about Argentina as an alternative to settle down. Jews are not subjected to more persecution in Europe or US than homosexuals or redhaired. Should they also get their own land because of that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Simply not true. Even a couple of years back when things were more peaceful when the boarders were closed for weeks (due to seldom occasions of suicide bombs and fightings) many industries suffered much beacuse they didn´t have palestinian work force.And just because palestinians are more dependent of jobs in Israel than Israel is of their work doesn´t make the comparisment with SA less right. It only shows that Israel have made Palestinians economically dependend of Israel as descibed above (crippled areas = not able to create economic development)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.
[ 04-30-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
[quote]It was a work in progress ..... some times progressing too slowly I agree... the end result was always meant to be a continuous Palestinian territory that was viable .... look at the final borders offered by Barak at Sharem and anyway this doesn't have much to do with the Aparthide theory we were talking about .
I agree Israel wasn't the perfect partner and the issue of the settlements is a pain in the arse for me as well but the main reason palestinians were growing impatient was that the PA was no better then the Israeli military rule that preceded it ... it did not benefit the Palestinians and instead of educating them for peace and trying to move on with solving their problems it was busy inciting against Israel and blaming Israel for all of the PA's shortcomings. remember also that there were plenty of suicide bombings during the Oslo years and the Israeli nation was constantly pressured to simply accept these as the victims in the struggle for peace and in most cases Israel didn't retaliate. <hr></blockquote>
The only difference here is that I see it as shared (50/50) responsibility. I know it was a difficult for Israel not to react harder to suicide bombs in the mid 90´s but the non development in the peace process gave PA the argument to hide the corruption behind. With a real area to control PA would lack the argument against Israel and be forced to and have the actual ability to create a state focused on their own development instead of the constant clash with Israel military. The situation we have today is a product of Israel and PA actions between Oslo and 1999.
[quote] It is relevant since you asked me why can't Palestinians return to their ancestral homes inside Israel. you used that to justify calling Israel an Aparthide state, by your logic these Jews who were driven out of Arab lands should be allowed to go back and reclaim their possessions and homes ...... its really very simple. why does the right of return and compensation go only one way in favor of Palestinian refugees , most israelis have been refugees at one time or another.<hr></blockquote>
If any individuals make claim against the saudi government I would support it. Its that simple. A general "Wrong was done to jews in arab countries so wrong was done to US" I can´t support, especially not when it is used to put "justify" the action of Israel. Bad was done to individuals and that cannot be used by a country to justify its actions against a non related group of other individuals.
[quote]2. Israel did not use the suppression of the other side for the benefit of itself.. come on....
Israel occupied the land in a war that was imposed on it, it then held the territory for too long because there was no one willing to deal with Israel for it (most Arab states and PLO rejected all forms of negotiation or compromise with Israel until Oslo was signed) Israel cannot alone be blamed for the amount of time it took to begin sorting this out. the way you describe it as a calculated system is nonsense. <hr></blockquote>
I wouldn´t put all the blame on Israel but for the palestinian in the occupied area the difference is minimal. And I would not call it a calculated system but nonetheless the result was a system as I described and for the individual palestinian the difference between a calculated system and one that emerge from other dynamics is minimal. The result is the same for him/her.
[quote]That really saddens me to read you say that .... and the very fact you do vindicates my view that Israel's creation was necessary.
Not subjected to more persecution then homosexuals or redhaired .... 2000 years of endless violence against jews culminating in the systematic extermination of 6 million humans is not a big deal ?
Let me tell you a story about my father-
He was born in Berlin before the war. as a very young boy he survived the war in german occupied Czechoslovakia as a German Arian using forged documents .... after the war when he came back to Germany, despite all that had happened German boys kept beating him and savaging him for being a jew ..... in 1948 as a 13 year old boy he decided he's had enough and joined a jewish youth group who emigrated to the newly formed Israel were he could be free to live as a Jew and run his own life. You might not understand this story but the basic fact is that now that we Jews have our own land we don't need to convince anyone but ourselves anymore, we are not a defenseless minority like we were for last 2000 years depending on the mercy of others .... so you can think what you like but israel is here to stay ! and it had to have been created. besides canceling the Jew's right for their national home should apply in this case to Palestinian rights if Jews dont have the right to live in their own land why do the Palestinians deserve one ? After all thy are not being persecuted in the Arab countries were most live these days....
Kid yourself not, without Israel Palestine would never have been possible, the land would have disappeared into neighboring Arab states.
In my opinion the only reason you say what you do is that its too complicated for you to handle the moral implications of this thing ... and you simply choose to look at the tiny piece of history that you live in and draw your conclusions from that ....easy but misguided my friend !<hr></blockquote>
Parts of my family (those who lived in other parts of Europe) were killed in german camps too. The family on my mothers side is of jewish origin and I know the history of the jews.But persecution is a personally thing. Today homosexsuals are persecuted more than jews and that counts more for me than what happened to our grandparents. You don´t suffer personally from what happened to your family generations ago. It may sound harsh but try turn it around: Should the young germans feel guilty of what their forefathers did to the Jews, communists et al? Again: what counts for me is the personal experience
today. not what happened to people now dead. Another story is that right wasn´t done to those suffered from Nazi germany. The compensation given in these years to the children is given to the wrong generation 50 years too late. Esp. those money given to jewish organisations is wrong and stupid and supports organisations those dead may not even have wanted to support.
[quote]Originally posted by rashumon:
<strong>
Sorry mate but you are really being silly and wrong about this.... Israel's dependence on Palestinian workers is MARGINAL ! check your facts. some industries suffer a shortage of workers but that doesn't mean that any damage is done to the economy and its in no way as all encompassing as is the case in SA where if Blacks stop working the country grinds to a stand-still.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again what benefit Israel gain is of less interest for me. Its what implication it have for the palestinians that concerns me. Unfortunetly I can only give you anedoctic(sp sucks) evidence of companies closing down when the palestinian work force wasn´t available. Again: it wasn´t calculated somewhere that the economic system should develop to this but it did.
(Er... OK then. Forget it.)
I know the debate's moved on since my last post here but I feel obliged to "reason" with Rashumon; he's still looking for someone to come up with a good reason to call Sharon a war criminal apparently, and it behoves me to put the guy out of his misery.
I've skirted around it in another post, but here it is. Sabra. Chatilla. And I repeat, it was an Israeli enquiry that found the guy culpable.
Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. It was in September 1982 when Sharon, as the head of an occupying force and responsible for the security of those under his governance under Protocol One of the Geneva Convention allowed (Israeli-trained, equipped and logistically supported) Phalange militants into those refugee camps. He had held (very public) talks with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustan, the leaders of these militia groups, days before the massacres. He could not possibly have been in any doubt about their feelings or their intended actions. He let them in, and the Israeli army let no-one out of the camps. They sealed those camps off, and they let the Christians in. The aim was, I believe, to crush the last of the infrastructure of the PLO.
It lasted for days. The morgues and the hospitals filled up. He could not possibly have been ignorant. Thousands of women and children died, and you can't pretend they were all terrorists. There were lines of men shot in the back, women raped, you know the drill.
The facts are well documented, incontrovertible, and even (generally) agreed upon by the Israeli committee that found your man (what was it?) "loosely culpable," or something like that.
He should be on trial.
And... and... and... PCKilla asking Rashumon to calm down, "these guys are only in it for the sport". This from a man who posted on a public forum that Arabs are "barbarians" and that Arab contributions to sciences, medicine and mathematics are "propaganda." Chill: they're only looking for sport.
Well forgive me if I come looking for "sport", and I am angry, but I've seen a man here making accusations of racism, conspiracy and hypocrisy that simply don't apply as far as he's concerned when it comes to Muslims. And... and... and... oh forget it.
Last points.
Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.
You may not agree with the proposition that Israel resembles an Apartheid state, but you can't dismiss the argument as "rhetoric" or "propaganda". You've argued the points rationally yourself with your own facts and you know what? I don't agree with your facts either.
(edited because I accidentally implied Peres should be on trial for war crimes.)
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
so sending 16 year old girls strapped with explosive belts on mass murder campaigns would qualify you as? civilized ?
mika.
<strong>hey cuz
so sending 16 year old girls strapped with explosive belts on mass murder campaigns would qualify you as? civilized ?
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.
<strong>
Certainly no more or no less civilised than the man who sanctioned the deaths of 2,500 defenceless men, women and children in refugee camps in West Beirut 20 years ago, no.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm, ? so cuz, now you are a mind reader.
I'll remind you it was ARABS and arabs only, that did the killings in those camps. That time it was Christian Arabs. But what do you suppose was their reason? I mean why would they turn so on their loving Muslim brothers?
Could these start to explain some of the reasons:
<a href="http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html"; target="_blank">http://www.worthynews.com/persecution-africa.html</a>;
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
The murderers were Arabs but they couldn't have done what they did without the complicity of the Israeli army.
And I followed your link. Er... how dare you? If I were vile enough to suggest that the Jewish people had been suffering for so long that they must be doing something to deserve it, I would deserve to be locked out of this site for good. I would be accused of anti-semitism, quite rightly, and I would be a terrible, terrible man. And all of a sudden it's different when it's Muslims.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Now I don?t expect you to follow Israeli politics all too closely, but if you did, you?d know that that enquiry was a Bolshevik tactic of the Israeli left designed to send Sharon into political exile. (A trick they?ve used many a time, including on our former PM Binyamin Netanyahu). And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon ?culpable?, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.
You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the ?500 civilian massacre? in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Special Ingredient For Jewish Holidays is Human Blood From Non-Jewish Youth
"I chose to [speak] about the Jewish holiday of Purim, because it is connected to the month of March. This holiday has some dangerous customs that will, no doubt, horrify you, and I apologize if any reader is harmed because of this."
"During this holiday, the Jew must prepare very special pastries, the filling of which is not only costly and rare - it cannot be found at all on the local and international markets."
"Unfortunately, this filling cannot be left out, or substituted with any alternative serving the same purpose. For this holiday, the Jewish people must obtain human blood so that their clerics can prepare the holiday pastries. In other words, the practice cannot be carried out as required if human blood is not spilled!!"
The article was published by the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam
Looks familiar cuz?
So let me understand you, nothing on that site is true?
I can hardly deny it. But that doesn't absolve anyone of the masssacre. It's no excuse, those people didn't deserve to die, and Sharon thought it was politically expedient that they did. That's why he let it happen. Those people didn't deserve that simply because of their faith. No-one deserves to die because of their faith. Not even Muslims.
And there is a BIG difference between an enquiry that supposedly found Sharon ?culpable?, and saying the Sharon has sanctioned these killings.
'Culpable' is word that means "guilty, criminal, deserving punishment." (Oxford English Dictionary.) Ignore the eye-witness reports, the journalism, the pages of testimony and the historical discussion that followed. It's still a fact of history: my man sanctioned those killings by arming the killers, doing nothing to stop them (Protocol One of the Geneva Convention) and preventing people escaping. Actually, this goes further than 'sanctioning'.
You have blood libeled our PM Sharon and our defense forces here. And just like the latest blood libel of the ?500 civilian massacre? in Jenin, it is patently false! And you know it! So you are no better than them crude anti-Semites that you so malign.
I don't know what a blood libel is, but as far as I can see, there's no libel of any kind here at all. These are proven facts so they cannot, by definition, be libellous.
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism. And your grounds? I have pointed out that your government might possibly have had a part to play in the escalation of the terrible violence in Palestine and Israel.
Even to suggest that Sharon is ?culpable? (your word not mine), is to suggest that the US and NATO for example, too are culpable for all the ethnic killings that occurred not too long ago in former Yugoslavia. That?s how far you need to stretch it. Would you like to suggest that they too have sanctioned these killings?
Also:
quote
I don't know what a blood libel is, but as far as I can see, there's no libel of any kind here at all. These are proven facts so they cannot, by definition, be libellous.
Is that why Sharon is now in court defending his name? Because there are proven facts that he had knowledge of the events?!
quote:
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism.
Why is it that you have to try so hard? Why is it so difficult for you to make that distinction?
quote:
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
So I suppose you are also unsure whether the contents of the article that was published by the columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, in the the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, are false either. How are the two examples different?
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>