[quote] To say that Israel has sanctioned these killing *is* a blood libel. <hr></blockquote>
Blood libel, milkshake libel, whatever, it still ain't a libel of any kind because it's been proven. You see, it happened. It really, really did.
[quote]
quote:
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
So I suppose you are also unsure whether the contents of the article that was published by the columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, in the the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, are false either. How are the two examples different? <hr></blockquote>
1: I don't know whether 500 civilians died in Jenin or not because I wasn't there. I'm not going to find out because your government won't let me.
2: I can probably find the article you quote on the web. I know it's nonsense because I can open an Encylopedia of World Faith, look under 'Judaism' and see if it's common practice for Jewish priests to use the blood of non-Jewish people in their Purim pastries. Or I can ask my friend Barnaby, who is Jewish. Or I can use my brain and decide for myself that on balance, Judaism is probably not given to cannabalism.
Do-you-see-the-difference-now?
[quote] quote:
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism.
Why is it that you have to try so hard? Why is it so difficult for you to make that distinction?
<hr></blockquote>
The point is, Mika, I make the distinction so we don't confuse the government of the state of Israel, which is 50 years old, with the Jewish people, who are thousands of years old. It's so I don't have to say "Jewish people all act like fascists", which is obviously untrue, when I say "the Israeli government act like a bunch of fascists." Which is. One's a government. The other's a people who share their ancestry and thousands of years of culture. Do you see? I don't find it hard to distinguish between the two, merely careful. I do it so I can criticise the policies of your government without accusations of anti-semitism, which, like anyone with a brain, I abhor.
I bow out now. Goodbye. You're a little boy. It's point-scoring now and I've got work to do. Feel free to have the last word.
Well, my learned cousin, unlike your Muslim Arab states, Israel is a democracy. So the government actually changes every so and so years. Last time it was a Labour coalition government. Before that it was a Likud coalition government. And now it is a Labour and Likud national unity government. I don?t even remember when a government has lasted more than one term in the elections. But I would have thought you are familiar with that concept of elections and the change of governments, being you?re from Britain.
quote:
Or I can use my brain and decide for myself that on balance, Judaism is probably not given to cannabalism.
But Israelis are prone to commiting war crimes. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Personally I believe it would have been less trouble if Israel instead of giving prior warnings to civilians to leave before they entered the camp and risking the lives of their young soldiers in house to house searches through booby trapped homes, just carpet bombed the whole place with B-52?s.They would not have suffered the 23 casualties the way they have AND there would have been no questions about their military objectives.
Sorry mate .. that was trap to get you back into the discussion... thought you buggered off :eek:
Glad to see you back ...
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. It was in September 1982 when Sharon, as the head of an occupying force and responsible for the security of those under his governance under Protocol One of the Geneva Convention allowed (Israeli-trained, equipped and logistically supported) Phalange militants into those refugee camps. He had held (very public) talks with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustan, the leaders of these militia groups, days before the massacres. He could not possibly have been in any doubt about their feelings or their intended actions. He let them in, and the Israeli army let no-one out of the camps. They sealed those camps off, and they let the Christians in. The aim was, I believe, to crush the last of the infrastructure of the PLO.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Sharon was found culpable, not guilty not responsible .. culpable ! As a result he was ostracized out of Israeli political life for 10 years. his hands are not clean at all but he is not a war criminal, no more so then Arafat is or any other leader in the middle east, who are implicated in far worse massacres against their own and other nations .. how come only Sharon gets pointed out in this case ? what about all those other people and what about Arafat who has been a ruthless terrorist for over 30 years and is responsible for thousands of lost lives ? I don't see you or any European or Arab people condemning him .....or Mubarak or Syrian occupation of Lebanon.
What about the Dutch generals and government who had to resign for their culpability for the Srebrenicia massacre .. are they war criminals too ? the situation there was very similar.
Your figure are also wrong - by most reliable estimates there have been around 800 dead in the camps not 2500 as you state.
And again, its extremely important to emphasize that this massacre was performed by Arabs against Arabs .... the Christians who performed this massacre were themselves subject to many many massacres performed against them by Palestinians and Muslims in Lebanon read this to get some more background about the story
I'm not justifying the horrible massacres, what I am saying is that this is a recurring pattern in Lebanon's warped history of Christian Muslim conflict over many generations and blaming Israel for this is a terrible lie !
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And so is Arafat .. so what does that say ??
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
You may not agree with the proposition that Israel resembles an Apartheid state, but you can't dismiss the argument as "rhetoric" or "propaganda". You've argued the points rationally yourself with your own facts and you know what? I don't agree with your facts either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You haven't explained why you think these two scenarios (Israel and SA) are alike.... there is not a single point where the two systems are similar in ... so since you haven't proven or convinced me with that claim I assume its just a simple cheap propaganda trick to make Israel look bad.
I would be glad to hear why you think Israel should be called Aparthide.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
(edited because I accidentally implied Peres should be on trial for war crimes.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad you retracted that cos that is such a lie .. its an unbelievable piece of pure crap ! and no one in this forum has provided me with any facts, dates or evidence as to what the hell it is they are even talking about ....
All of you siding with Israel don't seem to realize that you are only in line with the government (or American Jews, a group that has historically been more militant than many Israelis) and that there is growing dissent in the country. As Robert Fisk said when I saw him speak at Medill recently, the Israeli press is by far the most critical of Israel's policies. In addition, a 60 Mins. story about the large number of Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the West Bank was pulled at the last second Sunday due to pressure from Americans, not Israelis. I know this because my boss's husband was interviewed for it. Understand that Sharon is ultra-conservative and not a reflection of the population as a whole. You are not aligning yourself with Israel when you condemn the Palestinians, you are aligning yourself with the ignorance presently in power.
<strong>I can see that the difference between us is smaller than I thought. The main difference is that I look at the situation from each perons point of view in my argumentation both in claming the similarity between Israel and SA and the jews situation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anders I really don't see the point in that comparison... unless you are out to tarnish Israel's name in order to get points in the Propaganda battle.. I just don't see how a loose comparison like this helps bring hearts and minds on both sides together in order to move away from the violence......(assuming that this is what you want to see happening )
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
The only difference here is that I see it as shared (50/50) responsibility. I know it was a difficult for Israel not to react harder to suicide bombs in the mid 90´s but the non development in the peace process gave PA the argument to hide the corruption behind. With a real area to control PA would lack the argument against Israel and be forced to and have the actual ability to create a state focused on their own development instead of the constant clash with Israel military. The situation we have today is a product of Israel and PA actions between Oslo and 1999.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I totally agree with that assessment of the situation its a 50/50 blame share.. .. only the problem is Palestinians don't see it that way .. they see it as 100% Israel blame and Palestinians as martyrs ( see the polles I sent out and listen to what their leadership are saying)... ever since the Intefada started they have been peddling this victim rhetoric around the world while using terror as a tool to apply pressure on the Israeli government hoping for more concessions and more pressure on Israel by the world community... Israel has proven that it wont buckle under pressure though !
And the latest military campaign has been very successful at achieving it primary aim which is security for Israelis ! Israel has shown many times that it's willing to compromise, negotiate and work on the premise of Land for peace formula...the deals with Egypt, Jordan and Oslo have shown that when you try to deal with Israel in peace the effort is generally rewarded .
But Israel has also proved it can fight like a lion when attacked and that it wont use it citizens as pawns in the middle east political game.... the violence must stop and then peace will come !
One of the points of this thread was that Europe's establishment and media's treatment of this conflict has not been 50/50 its been more like - 'Israel is an Apartheid bully massacring Palestinians' ...more like 80/20 [ Israel/ Palestinians ].. that is not fair ! .. it smacks of anti Semitism and worse than that its unjust.. because it seeks to appease and distract attention from Europe's own racist problems re Arabs and Muslims at the expense of Israel .... that's why so many Jews are saying- here we go again its Europe blaming the Jews again.....
Or to use the likable nickname the French Ambassador to London used 'That shitty little country' is an easy target for venting European problems out on....its enough to look at the resurgence of LePen in France and Hider in Austria to understand where all of this is coming from...
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
If any individuals make claim against the Saudi government I would support it. Its that simple. A general "Wrong was done to jews in arab countries so wrong was done to US" I can´t support, especially not when it is used to put "justify" the action of Israel. Bad was done to individuals and that cannot be used by a country to justify its actions against a non related group of other individuals.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
woo .. stop ! I didn't use this to justify Israel evil actions I raised these points since you used the same issue as proof of Israel's Apartheid like nature.... all I was saying is that if the refugee problem makes Israel an Apartheid land then so are Arab countries, India, Pakistan and NATO and many other places....
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I wouldn't put all the blame on Israel but for the Palestinian in the occupied area the difference is minimal. And I would not call it a calculated system but nonetheless the result was a system as I described and for the individual Palestinian the difference between a calculated system and one that emerge from other dynamics is minimal. The result is the same for him/her.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough, but we are not Palestinians we are trying to look at this in a responsible balanced way, especially you being a European. In many cases you are put as a judge in this conflict I would expect you to look at things from a neutral point not from an Israeli or a Palestinian point.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Parts of my family (those who lived in other parts of Europe) were killed in German camps too. The family on my mothers side is of Jewish origin and I know the history of the Jews. But persecution is a personally thing. Today homosexuals are persecuted more than Jews and that counts more for me than what happened to our grandparents. You don't suffer personally from what happened to your family generations ago.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
If homosexuals proved that they will be safer in their own Homostan with their own HomoArmy I would support their cause ... just like I do the Kurdish, Palestinian, Tibetan, Timorese causes etc.... people are far too violent and evil to be allowed to prevent a certain group from forming its own society, after all- all a nation is, is a group of people calling themselves a nation.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Should the young Germans feel guilty of what their forefathers did to the Jews,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can't say, that up to them ...not me to preach on guilt ... I know I feel guilty for Israeli actions that resulted in the death of innocents .
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
today. not what happened to people now dead. Another story is that right wasn't done to those suffered from Nazi Germany. The compensation given in these years to the children is given to the wrong generation 50 years too late. Esp. those money given to Jewish organisations is wrong and stupid and supports organisations those dead may not even have wanted to support.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Anders I still don't understand how all this explains why you don't think Israel should have been formed in the first place .. please explain I'm confused .... really , I'm not being argumentative
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Again what benefit Israel gain is of less interest for me. Its what implication it have for the Palestinians that concerns me. Unfortunately I can only give you anedoctic(sp sucks) evidence of companies closing down when the palestinian work force wasn´t available. Again: it wasn´t calculated somewhere that the economic system should develop to this but it did.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again,,,, I said this in response to your claim that Israel's economy is similar to SA's ... which I then proved to you isn't the case. whats the difference between certain Israeli industries relying ( but not wholly dependant) on cheap Palestinian workers and many European Industries relying on cheap immigrant labour ? a good example is the Car industry in France where companies like Renault and Peugeot would crumble if they were to loose cheap labour by workers who immigrated from North African Arab states .. are France or Italy Apartheid states too ?
<strong>All of you siding with Israel don't seem to realize that you are only in line with the government (or American Jews, a group that has historically been more militant than many Israelis) and that there is growing dissent in the country. As Robert Fisk said when I saw him speak at Medill recently, the Israeli press is by far the most critical of Israel's policies. In addition, a 60 Mins. story about the large number of Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the West Bank was pulled at the last second Sunday due to pressure from Americans, not Israelis. I know this because my boss's husband was interviewed for it. Understand that Sharon is ultra-conservative and not a reflection of the population as a whole. You are not aligning yourself with Israel when you condemn the Palestinians, you are aligning yourself with the ignorance presently in power.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude I am an Israeli ( though I live and work in UK now) I know what I'm talking about....
I would never vote for Sharon or any of the nationalist parties in the Knesset BUT, I would not allow my country's name to be tarnished by lies,
lies about massacres that never happened.
lies about war crimes that were not committed .
lies about Peres ( a left wing moderate) being a murderer.
and most of all I will not stand by and watch my family being blown to bits in the streets of Jerusalem. Israel and Sharon have done many mistakes .... That does not justify Palestinian violence or the path that the PA has chosen which is clearly to fight until they get what they can never get through negotiations.. namely the destruction or the substantial weakening of the state of Israel !
I am all for peace and compromise but I won't commit suicide.
I think you'll find that most Israelis think like myself..... all the ones I talk to certianly do...
An allegation, recurring during the thirteenth through sixteenth centuries, that Jews were killing Christian children to use their blood for the ritual of making unleavened bread (matzah). A red mold which occasionally appeared on the bread started this myth.
For some recent examples read these astounding sites :
An allegation, recurring during the thirteenth through sixteenth centuries, that Jews were killing Christian children to use their blood for the ritual of making unleavened bread (matzah). A red mold which occasionally appeared on the bread started this myth.
For some recent examples read these astounding sites :
<strong>All of you siding with Israel don't seem to realize that you are only in line with the government (or American Jews, a group that has historically been more militant than many Israelis) and that there is growing dissent in the country. As Robert Fisk said when I saw him speak at Medill recently, the Israeli press is by far the most critical of Israel's policies. In addition, a 60 Mins. story about the large number of Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the West Bank was pulled at the last second Sunday due to pressure from Americans, not Israelis. I know this because my boss's husband was interviewed for it. Understand that Sharon is ultra-conservative and not a reflection of the population as a whole. You are not aligning yourself with Israel when you condemn the Palestinians, you are aligning yourself with the ignorance presently in power.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is one ignorant statement, to borrow your words.
The current national unity government is the most broad based coalition government Israel has experienced in years, comprising some 65%! of the electoral vote. To say that some 400 despicable military shirkers represent the country is beyond the pale. These people have forsaken their most basic duty as Israelis. They should have their citizenships expunged and removed from the country.
.. it smacks of anti Semitism and worse than that its unjust.. because it seeks to appease and distract attention from Europe's own racist problems re Arabs and Muslims at the expense of Israel .... that's why so many Jews are saying- here we go again its Europe blaming the Jews again.....
That is one ignorant statement, to borrow your words.
The current national unity government is the most broad based coalition government Israel has experienced in years, comprising some 65%! of the electoral vote. To say that some 400 despicable military shirkers represent the country is beyond the pale. These people have forsaken their most basic duty as Israelis. They should have their citizenships expunged and removed from the country.
Sorry Mika .... I really think you're going too far with this ... while I don't condone this action,I think these people have a right to stand up for what they believe in, and if they prefer to go to prison ( albeit only for few weeks) rather then do their reserve duty thats still plenty brave.
Some of them are mega fighters who fought for our country many times but feel they can't work this one out ...
I think its a token of Israel's liberal democratic values that it tolerates this behavior and allows decent to be heard freely... compare this with our opponents..... and you will see why I hope and believe we will never loose...
A regime built on fear and hate will never beat a defensive force of a country which is loyal to freedom. Its far better to have a consensus that comes from reason then one the stems from fear and intimidation... those soldiers fighting in the OT to defend us are doing so willingly which makes them 10 better as soldiers .. thats why this operation is so successful, indeed that's why israel wins all its wars ... because people fight willingly with the full understanding that they are protecting their families instead of just bowing to some ruling force telling them what to do.
If they want to dissent, I have no problem with that. That?s what demonstrations and the ballot box are for. You are inviting chaos, if you allow these things to pass. The IDF is supposed to be separate from politics. People have worked very hard for that. It has been so, and it should remain so. They swore an allegiance to the state and its institutions. They broke that allegiance. There is absolutely no reason for them to remain Israel. They have forfeited their citizenship as far as I?m concerned. And all whom I spoke with in Israel regarding this issue agree with me whole-heartedly. This is a disgrace.
<strong>If they want to dissent, I have no problem with that. That?s what demonstrations and the ballot box are for. You are inviting chaos, if you allow these things to pass. The IDF is supposed to be separate from politics. People have worked very hard for that. It has been so, and it should remain so. They swore an allegiance to the state and its institutions. They broke that allegiance. There is absolutely no reason for them to remain Israel. They have forfeited their citizenship as far as I?m concerned. And all whom I spoke with in Israel regarding this issue agree with me whole-heartedly. This is a disgrace.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not arguing with what you say .. but I do think we can afford to show some flexibility in this case... after all its very few people we're talking about..
And even if you think they shuld be punished that still dosn't mean you can take Israeli citizenships from them even Igal Amir hasn't lost his citizenship...
I'm not arguing with what you say .. but I do think we can afford to show some flexibility in this case... after all its very few people we're talking about..
And even if you think they shuld be punished that still dosn't mean you can take Israeli citizenships from them even Igal Amir hasn't lost his citizenship...</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm , ... maybe he should. To me that would be the Israeli equivalent to the American death penalty.
a.\tA system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b.\tA political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2.\tOppressive, dictatorial control.
The US used to have a draft. Mandatory military service if you fit the bill. Refusal meant jail time usually. Was the US fascist? Not likely by any definition.
And Israel is not the US. You'll be surprised how many countries require military service from it's citizens.
Mussolini's original conception of Fascism actually aligns itself very well with where Israel is right now. Here are the root ideas:
A belief in leaders: good politics sees not representatives expressing the desires of those below but leaders who command; the goals of a country are imposed by leaders of vision from above.
A belief in the value of a strong and unified nation: the willing and eager sacrifice of individual goals and lives to strengthen the national purpose, with war and expansion as tests of strength and arenas for heroic sacrifice.
Coordination and propaganda: advertising, ceremonies, the ruling party as an enforer of social discipline and respect for the leader.
A belief in at least some traditional hierarchies: the army, the family, sometimes the church.
A hatred of socialists and liberals: socialists as opponents of national self-assertion (and as potential betrayers of the people to slavery under a foreign Russian elite); liberals as unwilling to take the steps necessary to fight socialists, as self-absorbed individualists who weakened the nation, and as parliamentarians who did not recognize that the nation, not the individual, held rights.
Sounds very similar. Looks like what the US is going through now, too. Of course, the last major part of Fascism was a hatred of Jews, but this is not as much of a philosophical part of the system since the above dictates the ideology for what were seen as the real citizens. The Jewish hatred centered around the Jewish presense hindering the ability to adopt the four above.
Anyway, one could replace "Jew" with "Palestinian" and get a perfect manifestation of fascism in Israel right now.
Esspecially when you say dissenters should be stripped of their citizenship. Imagine if we in the US kicked all of the Blacks out or shipped out our Vietnam draft-dodgers. If you want to have a respected country, you have to deal with these things in a mature manner.
If you are a thinking person, you should be able to figure out that Israel is not under attack for no reason and that Palestinians have very legitimate gripes. Everyone else in the world can see it and you should be able to as well. Educated Americans very much understand why we are under attack, and if the Bush administration keeps up its "war against terror" in the indescriminant and undemocratic manner, you can be sure that the next election will see a major political shift.
Many Americans are rightly questioning our unquavering alliance with Israel. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans are not happy with the Bush administration not doing more to get Israel to stop its recent attacks on Palestinians.
If people are attacking you and your country, maybe you should take a second to figure out why. Don't spew some crap that you live there so you have to defend yourself against irrational attackers because you are talking to an american who works at a major university. In other words, most people I speak with on a daily basis have an accent, and not because they are from Trailerparkinsas. Maybe you should figure out why most of the billions of people on earth think that what your country is doing is wrong. It would be wrong for anyone else to so it.
And don't try to act like foreigners can't criticize your government or you nations policies. Some of the best commentary on the US comes from outside sources, all the way up to the Economist. You live in a global community.
Also, if you are so upset about you family getting killed that you condone killing Palestinians, it sure seems like you're saying that you put a different value on the lives of different races. Interesting that you are fending off what you see as racism, and the rest of the world sees it as anti Israeli policy, while participating in ethnic cleansing yourself.
Comments
Blood libel, milkshake libel, whatever, it still ain't a libel of any kind because it's been proven. You see, it happened. It really, really did.
[quote]
quote:
As for the so-called 500-civilian massacre in Jenin, I don't know at all what happened; I can't say if it's patently false or not. And I'm not likely to find out since there's not going to be an enquiry.
So I suppose you are also unsure whether the contents of the article that was published by the columnist Dr. Umayma Ahmad Al-Jalahma of King Faysal University in Al-Dammam, in the the Saudi government daily Al-Riyadh, are false either. How are the two examples different? <hr></blockquote>
1: I don't know whether 500 civilians died in Jenin or not because I wasn't there. I'm not going to find out because your government won't let me.
2: I can probably find the article you quote on the web. I know it's nonsense because I can open an Encylopedia of World Faith, look under 'Judaism' and see if it's common practice for Jewish priests to use the blood of non-Jewish people in their Purim pastries. Or I can ask my friend Barnaby, who is Jewish. Or I can use my brain and decide for myself that on balance, Judaism is probably not given to cannabalism.
Do-you-see-the-difference-now?
[quote] quote:
And finally, finally, after I've tried so hard to distinguish between the Israeli government and the Jewish people in every last one of my posts, you accuse me of anti-semitism.
Why is it that you have to try so hard? Why is it so difficult for you to make that distinction?
<hr></blockquote>
The point is, Mika, I make the distinction so we don't confuse the government of the state of Israel, which is 50 years old, with the Jewish people, who are thousands of years old. It's so I don't have to say "Jewish people all act like fascists", which is obviously untrue, when I say "the Israeli government act like a bunch of fascists." Which is. One's a government. The other's a people who share their ancestry and thousands of years of culture. Do you see? I don't find it hard to distinguish between the two, merely careful. I do it so I can criticise the policies of your government without accusations of anti-semitism, which, like anyone with a brain, I abhor.
I bow out now. Goodbye. You're a little boy. It's point-scoring now and I've got work to do. Feel free to have the last word.
Peace, shalom, and salaam.
quote:
Or I can use my brain and decide for myself that on balance, Judaism is probably not given to cannabalism.
But Israelis are prone to commiting war crimes. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Personally I believe it would have been less trouble if Israel instead of giving prior warnings to civilians to leave before they entered the camp and risking the lives of their young soldiers in house to house searches through booby trapped homes, just carpet bombed the whole place with B-52?s.They would not have suffered the 23 casualties the way they have AND there would have been no questions about their military objectives.
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>Grrr... what about me? I can debate too!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry mate .. that was trap to get you back into the discussion... thought you buggered off :eek:
Glad to see you back ...
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Ariel Sharon is a war criminal. It was in September 1982 when Sharon, as the head of an occupying force and responsible for the security of those under his governance under Protocol One of the Geneva Convention allowed (Israeli-trained, equipped and logistically supported) Phalange militants into those refugee camps. He had held (very public) talks with Elie Hobeika, Fadie Frem and Zahi Bustan, the leaders of these militia groups, days before the massacres. He could not possibly have been in any doubt about their feelings or their intended actions. He let them in, and the Israeli army let no-one out of the camps. They sealed those camps off, and they let the Christians in. The aim was, I believe, to crush the last of the infrastructure of the PLO.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Sharon was found culpable, not guilty not responsible .. culpable ! As a result he was ostracized out of Israeli political life for 10 years. his hands are not clean at all but he is not a war criminal, no more so then Arafat is or any other leader in the middle east, who are implicated in far worse massacres against their own and other nations .. how come only Sharon gets pointed out in this case ? what about all those other people and what about Arafat who has been a ruthless terrorist for over 30 years and is responsible for thousands of lost lives ? I don't see you or any European or Arab people condemning him .....or Mubarak or Syrian occupation of Lebanon.
What about the Dutch generals and government who had to resign for their culpability for the Srebrenicia massacre .. are they war criminals too ? the situation there was very similar.
Your figure are also wrong - by most reliable estimates there have been around 800 dead in the camps not 2500 as you state.
And again, its extremely important to emphasize that this massacre was performed by Arabs against Arabs .... the Christians who performed this massacre were themselves subject to many many massacres performed against them by Palestinians and Muslims in Lebanon read this to get some more background about the story
<a href="http://freelebanon.org/articles/a229.htm"; target="_blank">http://freelebanon.org/articles/a229.htm</a>;
I'm not justifying the horrible massacres, what I am saying is that this is a recurring pattern in Lebanon's warped history of Christian Muslim conflict over many generations and blaming Israel for this is a terrible lie !
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And so is Arafat .. so what does that say ??
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
You may not agree with the proposition that Israel resembles an Apartheid state, but you can't dismiss the argument as "rhetoric" or "propaganda". You've argued the points rationally yourself with your own facts and you know what? I don't agree with your facts either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You haven't explained why you think these two scenarios (Israel and SA) are alike.... there is not a single point where the two systems are similar in ... so since you haven't proven or convinced me with that claim I assume its just a simple cheap propaganda trick to make Israel look bad.
I would be glad to hear why you think Israel should be called Aparthide.
[quote]Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
<strong>
(edited because I accidentally implied Peres should be on trial for war crimes.)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm glad you retracted that cos that is such a lie .. its an unbelievable piece of pure crap ! and no one in this forum has provided me with any facts, dates or evidence as to what the hell it is they are even talking about ....
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
Originally posted by Hassan i Sabbah:
Peres is a Nobel Laureate. So is Henry Kissinger.
And so is Arafat .. so what does that say ??
<hr></blockquote>
It means, as far as I can tell, they give the bloody things away to some pe-retty bloodthirsty characters.
General Pinochet: Nobel Laureate.
Pol Pot: Nobel Laureate.
Well the guy did invent dynamite, after all.
<strong>I can see that the difference between us is smaller than I thought. The main difference is that I look at the situation from each perons point of view in my argumentation both in claming the similarity between Israel and SA and the jews situation.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anders I really don't see the point in that comparison... unless you are out to tarnish Israel's name in order to get points in the Propaganda battle.. I just don't see how a loose comparison like this helps bring hearts and minds on both sides together in order to move away from the violence......(assuming that this is what you want to see happening )
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
The only difference here is that I see it as shared (50/50) responsibility. I know it was a difficult for Israel not to react harder to suicide bombs in the mid 90´s but the non development in the peace process gave PA the argument to hide the corruption behind. With a real area to control PA would lack the argument against Israel and be forced to and have the actual ability to create a state focused on their own development instead of the constant clash with Israel military. The situation we have today is a product of Israel and PA actions between Oslo and 1999.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I totally agree with that assessment of the situation its a 50/50 blame share.. .. only the problem is Palestinians don't see it that way .. they see it as 100% Israel blame and Palestinians as martyrs ( see the polles I sent out and listen to what their leadership are saying)... ever since the Intefada started they have been peddling this victim rhetoric around the world while using terror as a tool to apply pressure on the Israeli government hoping for more concessions and more pressure on Israel by the world community... Israel has proven that it wont buckle under pressure though !
And the latest military campaign has been very successful at achieving it primary aim which is security for Israelis ! Israel has shown many times that it's willing to compromise, negotiate and work on the premise of Land for peace formula...the deals with Egypt, Jordan and Oslo have shown that when you try to deal with Israel in peace the effort is generally rewarded .
But Israel has also proved it can fight like a lion when attacked and that it wont use it citizens as pawns in the middle east political game.... the violence must stop and then peace will come !
One of the points of this thread was that Europe's establishment and media's treatment of this conflict has not been 50/50 its been more like - 'Israel is an Apartheid bully massacring Palestinians' ...more like 80/20 [ Israel/ Palestinians ].. that is not fair ! .. it smacks of anti Semitism and worse than that its unjust.. because it seeks to appease and distract attention from Europe's own racist problems re Arabs and Muslims at the expense of Israel .... that's why so many Jews are saying- here we go again its Europe blaming the Jews again.....
Or to use the likable nickname the French Ambassador to London used 'That shitty little country' is an easy target for venting European problems out on....its enough to look at the resurgence of LePen in France and Hider in Austria to understand where all of this is coming from...
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
If any individuals make claim against the Saudi government I would support it. Its that simple. A general "Wrong was done to jews in arab countries so wrong was done to US" I can´t support, especially not when it is used to put "justify" the action of Israel. Bad was done to individuals and that cannot be used by a country to justify its actions against a non related group of other individuals.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
woo .. stop ! I didn't use this to justify Israel evil actions I raised these points since you used the same issue as proof of Israel's Apartheid like nature.... all I was saying is that if the refugee problem makes Israel an Apartheid land then so are Arab countries, India, Pakistan and NATO and many other places....
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I wouldn't put all the blame on Israel but for the Palestinian in the occupied area the difference is minimal. And I would not call it a calculated system but nonetheless the result was a system as I described and for the individual Palestinian the difference between a calculated system and one that emerge from other dynamics is minimal. The result is the same for him/her.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough, but we are not Palestinians we are trying to look at this in a responsible balanced way, especially you being a European. In many cases you are put as a judge in this conflict I would expect you to look at things from a neutral point not from an Israeli or a Palestinian point.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Parts of my family (those who lived in other parts of Europe) were killed in German camps too. The family on my mothers side is of Jewish origin and I know the history of the Jews. But persecution is a personally thing. Today homosexuals are persecuted more than Jews and that counts more for me than what happened to our grandparents. You don't suffer personally from what happened to your family generations ago.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
If homosexuals proved that they will be safer in their own Homostan with their own HomoArmy I would support their cause ... just like I do the Kurdish, Palestinian, Tibetan, Timorese causes etc.... people are far too violent and evil to be allowed to prevent a certain group from forming its own society, after all- all a nation is, is a group of people calling themselves a nation.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Should the young Germans feel guilty of what their forefathers did to the Jews,
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can't say, that up to them ...not me to preach on guilt ... I know I feel guilty for Israeli actions that resulted in the death of innocents .
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
today. not what happened to people now dead. Another story is that right wasn't done to those suffered from Nazi Germany. The compensation given in these years to the children is given to the wrong generation 50 years too late. Esp. those money given to Jewish organisations is wrong and stupid and supports organisations those dead may not even have wanted to support.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Anders I still don't understand how all this explains why you don't think Israel should have been formed in the first place .. please explain I'm confused .... really , I'm not being argumentative
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
Again what benefit Israel gain is of less interest for me. Its what implication it have for the Palestinians that concerns me. Unfortunately I can only give you anedoctic(sp sucks) evidence of companies closing down when the palestinian work force wasn´t available. Again: it wasn´t calculated somewhere that the economic system should develop to this but it did.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again,,,, I said this in response to your claim that Israel's economy is similar to SA's ... which I then proved to you isn't the case. whats the difference between certain Israeli industries relying ( but not wholly dependant) on cheap Palestinian workers and many European Industries relying on cheap immigrant labour ? a good example is the Car industry in France where companies like Renault and Peugeot would crumble if they were to loose cheap labour by workers who immigrated from North African Arab states .. are France or Italy Apartheid states too ?
<strong>All of you siding with Israel don't seem to realize that you are only in line with the government (or American Jews, a group that has historically been more militant than many Israelis) and that there is growing dissent in the country. As Robert Fisk said when I saw him speak at Medill recently, the Israeli press is by far the most critical of Israel's policies. In addition, a 60 Mins. story about the large number of Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the West Bank was pulled at the last second Sunday due to pressure from Americans, not Israelis. I know this because my boss's husband was interviewed for it. Understand that Sharon is ultra-conservative and not a reflection of the population as a whole. You are not aligning yourself with Israel when you condemn the Palestinians, you are aligning yourself with the ignorance presently in power.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude I am an Israeli ( though I live and work in UK now) I know what I'm talking about....
I would never vote for Sharon or any of the nationalist parties in the Knesset BUT, I would not allow my country's name to be tarnished by lies,
lies about massacres that never happened.
lies about war crimes that were not committed .
lies about Peres ( a left wing moderate) being a murderer.
and most of all I will not stand by and watch my family being blown to bits in the streets of Jerusalem. Israel and Sharon have done many mistakes .... That does not justify Palestinian violence or the path that the PA has chosen which is clearly to fight until they get what they can never get through negotiations.. namely the destruction or the substantial weakening of the state of Israel !
I am all for peace and compromise but I won't commit suicide.
I think you'll find that most Israelis think like myself..... all the ones I talk to certianly do...
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>Oh yeah: enlighten me please: what's a 'blood libel' exactly?
Taken from the Jewish virtual library:
<a href="http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/gloss.html#b"; target="_blank">http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/gloss.html#b</a>;
Blood Libel
An allegation, recurring during the thirteenth through sixteenth centuries, that Jews were killing Christian children to use their blood for the ritual of making unleavened bread (matzah). A red mold which occasionally appeared on the bread started this myth.
For some recent examples read these astounding sites :
<a href="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP15000"; target="_blank">http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP15000</a>;
<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020319-5444732.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020319-5444732.htm</a>;
<a href="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 20101" target="_blank">http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 20101</a>
Plenty more....
<strong>
Taken from the Jewish virtual library:
<a href="http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/gloss.html#b"; target="_blank">http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/gloss.html#b</a>;
Blood Libel
An allegation, recurring during the thirteenth through sixteenth centuries, that Jews were killing Christian children to use their blood for the ritual of making unleavened bread (matzah). A red mold which occasionally appeared on the bread started this myth.
For some recent examples read these astounding sites :
<a href="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP15000"; target="_blank">http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP15000</a>;
<a href="http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020319-5444732.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20020319-5444732.htm</a>;
<a href="http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 20101" target="_blank">http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 20101</a>
Plenty more....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Holy fcuk.
<strong>All of you siding with Israel don't seem to realize that you are only in line with the government (or American Jews, a group that has historically been more militant than many Israelis) and that there is growing dissent in the country. As Robert Fisk said when I saw him speak at Medill recently, the Israeli press is by far the most critical of Israel's policies. In addition, a 60 Mins. story about the large number of Israeli soldiers refusing to go to the West Bank was pulled at the last second Sunday due to pressure from Americans, not Israelis. I know this because my boss's husband was interviewed for it. Understand that Sharon is ultra-conservative and not a reflection of the population as a whole. You are not aligning yourself with Israel when you condemn the Palestinians, you are aligning yourself with the ignorance presently in power.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That is one ignorant statement, to borrow your words.
The current national unity government is the most broad based coalition government Israel has experienced in years, comprising some 65%! of the electoral vote. To say that some 400 despicable military shirkers represent the country is beyond the pale. These people have forsaken their most basic duty as Israelis. They should have their citizenships expunged and removed from the country.
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
I think you?ve nailed it.
mika.
<strong>
That is one ignorant statement, to borrow your words.
The current national unity government is the most broad based coalition government Israel has experienced in years, comprising some 65%! of the electoral vote. To say that some 400 despicable military shirkers represent the country is beyond the pale. These people have forsaken their most basic duty as Israelis. They should have their citizenships expunged and removed from the country.
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry Mika .... I really think you're going too far with this ... while I don't condone this action,I think these people have a right to stand up for what they believe in, and if they prefer to go to prison ( albeit only for few weeks) rather then do their reserve duty thats still plenty brave.
Some of them are mega fighters who fought for our country many times but feel they can't work this one out ...
I think its a token of Israel's liberal democratic values that it tolerates this behavior and allows decent to be heard freely... compare this with our opponents..... and you will see why I hope and believe we will never loose...
A regime built on fear and hate will never beat a defensive force of a country which is loyal to freedom. Its far better to have a consensus that comes from reason then one the stems from fear and intimidation... those soldiers fighting in the OT to defend us are doing so willingly which makes them 10 better as soldiers .. thats why this operation is so successful, indeed that's why israel wins all its wars ... because people fight willingly with the full understanding that they are protecting their families instead of just bowing to some ruling force telling them what to do.
mika.
<strong>If they want to dissent, I have no problem with that. That?s what demonstrations and the ballot box are for. You are inviting chaos, if you allow these things to pass. The IDF is supposed to be separate from politics. People have worked very hard for that. It has been so, and it should remain so. They swore an allegiance to the state and its institutions. They broke that allegiance. There is absolutely no reason for them to remain Israel. They have forfeited their citizenship as far as I?m concerned. And all whom I spoke with in Israel regarding this issue agree with me whole-heartedly. This is a disgrace.
mika.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not arguing with what you say .. but I do think we can afford to show some flexibility in this case... after all its very few people we're talking about..
And even if you think they shuld be punished that still dosn't mean you can take Israeli citizenships from them even Igal Amir hasn't lost his citizenship...
<strong>
I'm not arguing with what you say .. but I do think we can afford to show some flexibility in this case... after all its very few people we're talking about..
And even if you think they shuld be punished that still dosn't mean you can take Israeli citizenships from them even Igal Amir hasn't lost his citizenship...</strong><hr></blockquote>
hmm , ... maybe he should. To me that would be the Israeli equivalent to the American death penalty.
mika.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
freedom of choice fer all,
cuss
1.\toften Fascism
a.\tA system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
b.\tA political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2.\tOppressive, dictatorial control.
The US used to have a draft. Mandatory military service if you fit the bill. Refusal meant jail time usually. Was the US fascist? Not likely by any definition.
And Israel is not the US. You'll be surprised how many countries require military service from it's citizens.
A belief in leaders: good politics sees not representatives expressing the desires of those below but leaders who command; the goals of a country are imposed by leaders of vision from above.
A belief in the value of a strong and unified nation: the willing and eager sacrifice of individual goals and lives to strengthen the national purpose, with war and expansion as tests of strength and arenas for heroic sacrifice.
Coordination and propaganda: advertising, ceremonies, the ruling party as an enforer of social discipline and respect for the leader.
A belief in at least some traditional hierarchies: the army, the family, sometimes the church.
A hatred of socialists and liberals: socialists as opponents of national self-assertion (and as potential betrayers of the people to slavery under a foreign Russian elite); liberals as unwilling to take the steps necessary to fight socialists, as self-absorbed individualists who weakened the nation, and as parliamentarians who did not recognize that the nation, not the individual, held rights.
Sounds very similar. Looks like what the US is going through now, too. Of course, the last major part of Fascism was a hatred of Jews, but this is not as much of a philosophical part of the system since the above dictates the ideology for what were seen as the real citizens. The Jewish hatred centered around the Jewish presense hindering the ability to adopt the four above.
Anyway, one could replace "Jew" with "Palestinian" and get a perfect manifestation of fascism in Israel right now.
Esspecially when you say dissenters should be stripped of their citizenship. Imagine if we in the US kicked all of the Blacks out or shipped out our Vietnam draft-dodgers. If you want to have a respected country, you have to deal with these things in a mature manner.
If you are a thinking person, you should be able to figure out that Israel is not under attack for no reason and that Palestinians have very legitimate gripes. Everyone else in the world can see it and you should be able to as well. Educated Americans very much understand why we are under attack, and if the Bush administration keeps up its "war against terror" in the indescriminant and undemocratic manner, you can be sure that the next election will see a major political shift.
Many Americans are rightly questioning our unquavering alliance with Israel. All recent polls show that a large majority of Americans are not happy with the Bush administration not doing more to get Israel to stop its recent attacks on Palestinians.
If people are attacking you and your country, maybe you should take a second to figure out why. Don't spew some crap that you live there so you have to defend yourself against irrational attackers because you are talking to an american who works at a major university. In other words, most people I speak with on a daily basis have an accent, and not because they are from Trailerparkinsas. Maybe you should figure out why most of the billions of people on earth think that what your country is doing is wrong. It would be wrong for anyone else to so it.
And don't try to act like foreigners can't criticize your government or you nations policies. Some of the best commentary on the US comes from outside sources, all the way up to the Economist. You live in a global community.
Also, if you are so upset about you family getting killed that you condone killing Palestinians, it sure seems like you're saying that you put a different value on the lives of different races. Interesting that you are fending off what you see as racism, and the rest of the world sees it as anti Israeli policy, while participating in ethnic cleansing yourself.
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
mika.
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>