The first thing I want to say is that I love Pfflam. My man, as they say, gots flow. And he be dropping science. And stuff.
NoahJ, check this out. I've been reading texts recorded by a German linguist called Wilhlem Bleek at the end of the 1800s; he sat down with an extinct hunting and gathering people called the /Xam, from the Northern Cape of South Africa, and transcribed some 12,000 pages of myth, ritual and poetry over a period of fourteen years. Their language was a 'click' language; African click languages are the oldest languages we know. Their surviving relatives have the most ancient genes on the planet (so says mitochondrial decay rates, dontchaknow.) Bleek's document is the largest, most complete record of an extinct people's cosmology, and tells us about the world's most ancient religious practices.
It tells us we've had to get very, very comfortable indeed before we earned a God as nice as... well, God. They were a shamanic people, like all hunting and gathering peoples, and didn't distinguish between the spiritual and the physical at all; they had one word for story, history, news and myth, 'kum', and didn't distinguish between them because their survival in a terribly inhospitable environment depended on, for want of a better word, magic.
The religious instinct is hardwired in the brain. (It really is: you can stimulate a sense of the numinous by exciting specific parts of your grey matter. But that's another story.) It allowed us to draw connections between otherwise unconnectable information offered to us by the environment, explained to ourselves symbolically, and this takes enormous imaginative resources.
Agriculture changed all that. If the rains failed, we didn't die of thirst; if our arrows missed, we didn't die of hunger. We didn't need that mythic conception of the planet any more. We're comfortable now because of farming, and we've only been doing that for 10,000 years, which is nothing.
So 90% of human history is hunting and gathering, and it's left its mark; those colossal imaginative resources haven't gone away. We have cool stuff: my G4ti, Miles Davis, the axioms of the Buddah. But we have Sunni, Shi'a and Ismaeli Muslims killing each other over the sanctity of the Prophet's nephews, and we have Protestant and Catholic Christians killing each other over the individual's proximity to God.
The creator figure of the /Xam was a guy called /Kaggen, and he did not give a stuff. They saw that if there was a creator, he had a sense of humour, his work was beautiful, and he was under no obligation to be nice at all. No 'the ways of God are mysterious' for them at all.
We've got God because our ancestors needed a sense of the numinous to tag their symbols onto. The Christian God is a darn nice chap, but he's what you're left with after 10,000 years of getting comfy with farming.
Of course you're utterly, utterly convinced of the existence of God. Actually, you believe it as though your life depended on it. We haven't caught up with ourselves yet.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
a Congregationalist is a person who belongs to a church called a congregation. Mine is part of the United Church of Christ. I've heard of several other Congregationalist churches near me (I lie in CT) but I doubt that my brand of faith lives outside New England.
It's the ideal American church in my opinion. The minister has no authority, other than having people smile and generally do what he suggests. The power lies in the congregation - all choices are made by churchgoers who volunteer their time, and all donations are made completely freewill.
The minister spends most of his 6-day workweek (he has one day off. Wednesday? TUesday? Not sure) working in the name of the church. The church gives him a house to live in and a reasonable wage for his long hours, and he spends his days helping people. We recently hired a very nice lady to be our associate minister (not the first woman to be a minister in our church - but one of few. IT seems that few women go to seminary school), and I imagine she will help our main minister go around... ministering. They go to hospitals, serve as unofficial social workers, serve as mediators, are confidential listeners... very good people.
The services are mostly run by the congregation. A random member of the people comes up every week to lead prayers and read the Bible. The choirs are open to any churchgoer. The only actual jobs on Sunday are the music master's playing of the organ dyuring hymns and the minister giving a sermon. It seems best to leave sermos to a professional speaker.
SO that's congregationalism. The democratic Christians.
AS for your other remarks - I have any number of stories explaining things. The ppoint is I DON'[t BELIEVE THE BIBLE. IOt's a very nice set of stories, but as a historic document of things that HAPPENED, such as a virgin woman giving birth or men rising or being raised from the dead, or speaking byurning bushes for that matter, it's a crock. I'll take the morals, and I'll follow them, but I will not believe the stories,.
Everyone says there are contradictions, and some provide evidence of their views, but most just spout it and have nothing to back up their claim. I have found nothing that contradicts so far, do you care to provide evidence of your own? In your interpretation it may seem to contradict, but usually I find that this is because you are limiting the scope of your interpretation too much and are not reading the passage in the context of the entire scriptures.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well let me start by saying that I do not claim to be a bible expert, or claim to know how to read between the lines of these passages. As for your saying that jesus chose to come to earth, I think you are WAY off base on that. If you beleive the immaculate conception theory as the good book states, Jesus would have been born just as natural as any child, no choice in this matter. As far as his having choices AFTER birth I will agree with you on that one, otherwise you must be subscribing to the notion of pre-destinantion, that all people have their life and death planned ahead by god, and I have real problems with this notion. How could any creator be so arrogant as to determine at birth who lives and who and dies and when,or, if they live well or in poverty, etc? I will not tell you that I can argue away each contradiction, but how can God suppossedly be so loving and forgiving, yet destroy on a whim? You state that even 10 people could not be found wothy in Soddom and Gommora(sp)yet where was this all out love for man then. The flooding of the earth that he created, what about that? You say I am off base about a bad temper issue here, but you provide nothing more substantial than it was God's will. In a simple veiw such as mine such a gracious God as the christians make him out to be would not do the things that you say are his will. He has done nothing more than reduce himself to the level of man by commiting these acts of destruction.How can this be viewed as holly? As for the prophetic foreboding of Revelations I will refer back to my original comment on the pre-destination issue. Pre-destination is nothing more than playing a puppet master to living things. A simple analogy of this would be as follows: you have a dog that gives birth to a litter of puppies, as they are born you are deciding which will live and which will die at your desire, then expect them to think of you as meciful and loving. I know this is a bad example but it is the best I can do to show my point about this. Destruction for any reason is beyond my grasp. And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?
Well let me start by saying that I do not claim to be a bible expert, or claim to know how to read between the lines of these passages. As for your saying that jesus chose to come to earth, I think you are WAY off base on that. If you beleive the immaculate conception theory as the good book states, Jesus would have been born just as natural as any child, no choice in this matter. As far as his having choices AFTER birth I will agree with you on that one, otherwise you must be subscribing to the notion of pre-destinantion, that all people have their life and death planned ahead by god, and I have real problems with this notion. How could any creator be so arrogant as to determine at birth who lives and who and dies and when,or, if they live well or in poverty, etc? I will not tell you that I can argue away each contradiction, but how can God suppossedly be so loving and forgiving, yet destroy on a whim? You state that even 10 people could not be found wothy in Soddom and Gommora(sp)yet where was this all out love for man then. The flooding of the earth that he created, what about that? You say I am off base about a bad temper issue here, but you provide nothing more substantial than it was God's will. In a simple veiw such as mine such a gracious God as the christians make him out to be would not do the things that you say are his will. He has done nothing more than reduce himself to the level of man by commiting these acts of destruction.How can this be viewed as holly? As for the prophetic foreboding of Revelations I will refer back to my original comment on the pre-destination issue. Pre-destination is nothing more than playing a puppet master to living things. A simple analogy of this would be as follows: you have a dog that gives birth to a litter of puppies, as they are born you are deciding which will live and which will die at your desire, then expect them to think of you as meciful and loving. I know this is a bad example but it is the best I can do to show my point about this. Destruction for any reason is beyond my grasp. And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting questions. Let me give my view on predestination. Some people feel that God causes all things to happen and they look at it as you are describing it, "the man was born, he will die in this way because I will it." -God
I see it a bit differently. "The man was born, I see that down the road he will come to this end through his own choices and circumstances." -God
There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.
Also, and I have nothing specific to back me up on this either so we can put it under Noah's beliefs, I believe that Jesus chose to come to earth. In order for the sacrifice to mean anything he had to become a mortal man, succeptible to all things other mortal men are succeptible to, and thus he was born to a virgin so that it could not be said that he was any human mans son. He chose to come to earth, and the rest stands as said before.
As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.
And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?
In the bible it states the son will no longer pay for the sins of the father. I don't have the exact quote so if anyone cares to look up chapter and verse and correct any mistakes please do. However, when a child is very young, and has no recognition of right or wrong, I don't believe they are held accountable for their actions. Once they are old enough to choose, they become responsible and thus are held accountable. Don't ask me the age line, I could not even guess.
That is my opinion on that, I would be intersted to hear anyone elses thoughts on the subject though.
Elain Pagels, "The Origin of Satan" You desperately need to get some scholarly reading on Jesus, G-d, Pilate, the Romans, the Bible, etc etc. These little dogmas of yours are quite disturbing when you think about it. Why don't you just become a Jehova's Witness and be done with it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please explain? I have thought about them, and the only one disturbed here appears to be you. That and miserable... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
From what I understand Greek and Hebrew has no word for superstitions and such as well since they took it for granted that the spirit realm was as real as the physical. Your point is?
<strong>There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So God doesn't determine our fate?
[quote]<strong>As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.
As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is this sort of thing not a contradiction? Wouldnt wiping out civilizations because he/she/it felt they were unworthy violate the whole "shalt not kill" thingy? I have great trouble believing in a great merciful, loving god who would commit such great acts of mass murder. It's not just god, he also sends others to do the same... In Joshua 6:19-21, god commands Joshua and his army to attack Jericho and slaughter every man, woman, and child in the city. How can this be justified as a loving act?
There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.[qb]
Yet the Christian beleif in satan is as strong as to say he can influence ones actions..what is up here? satan and all his badness sure has a strong hold on the christian beleiver. I personally beleive satan was invented by man as a crutch for his own iniquity, yes i know the bible refers to satan quite often, but to beleive you have a path set by god that he (god) does not control but in the same breath beleive satan can control man is a little contradictory.
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Also, and I have nothing specific to back me up on this either so we can put it under Noah's beliefs, I believe that Jesus chose to come to earth. In order for the sacrifice to mean anything he had to become a mortal man, succeptible to all things other mortal men are succeptible to, and thus he was born to a virgin so that it could not be said that he was any human mans son. He chose to come to earth, and the rest stands as said before.[qb]
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Again, the fact of birth being immaculate is proof of pre-destination if god knows what will happen to all people.
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As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.</strong><hr></blockquote>
as gentlemen we can agree to disagree on this one. I can see no right in the suffering of innocent children or their destruction even if it is god's will.
So God does determine our fate?</strong><hr></blockquote>
God knows our fate. Whether the end of that fate is tied to an act of His or an act of your fellow man is not the point. I am disagreeing with the point people make that God somehow forces us to be some way and that we have no decision in the matter. God is in control, but He does not force us to bend to His will. He lets us know what His will is, it is up to us to follow it or not.
<strong>Is this sort of thing not a contradiction? Wouldnt wiping out civilizations because he/she/it felt they were unworthy violate the whole "shalt not kill" thingy? I have great trouble believing in a great merciful, loving god who would commit such great acts of mass murder. It's not just god, he also sends others to do the same... In Joshua 6:19-21, god commands Joshua and his army to attack Jericho and slaughter every man, woman, and child in the city. How can this be justified as a loving act?
No, that would not violate that. God is perfect, so being perfect he cannot do anything that is wrong. He is also the divine judge, jury and executioner so to speak. He is the beginning and the ending. To take any of these away from him is to make him not God. Anything less than all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, all being, and perfect is not God. The second we place any limitations on Him we have made Him not God anymore.
I am even guilty of this, probably even in some of my posts on these very threads.
However, God is not bound by the law He set out, nor is He under the law. He is the law. Is is a paradigm shift that is hard to grasp when you allow yourself to believe in a God that is somehow limited.
<strong>I am disagreeing with the point people make that God somehow forces us to be some way and that we have no decision in the matter. God is in control, but He does not force us to bend to His will. He lets us know what His will is, it is up to us to follow it or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But by agreeing to, say, the ten commandments, he is bending your will. I kind of like the whole not killing thing, but to be honest the adultery thing doesn't bother me that much. By taking his word as gospel (Excuse the terminology), you have to adhere to every word.
You wouldn't do that in politics, would you? You vote for the party that matches your own beliefs most closely, but do you then take every word uttered by a Republican or Democrat as gospel?
[quote]<strong>God is perfect, so being perfect he cannot do anything that is wrong. He is also the divine judge, jury and executioner so to speak.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If this "God" exists, he's made some almighty (literally) ****-ups.
[quote]Where shoud religious beliefs be based on if not the Bible...<hr></blockquote>
Logic and Nature.
All humans are blessed with the ability to examine and comprehend their surroundings. Religion has always served to provide people with an understanding of events beyond their current ability to explain. Science has advanced greatly in the past thousands of years but there are still uncountable scientific mysteries in the universe and on our own planet earth. What we think we know is but a fraction of what exists around us every day. Nature has existed and thrived for billions of years (or thousands if you go by bible) without praying to a god or having the son of a god die for their sins. Perhaps the model by which to live is all around us, we only have to open our minds to accept and attempt to understand a portion of it with our feeble minds.
Logic can help one to determine the correct way to act and guidelines to follow in life without the help of a reference like the Bible. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Simply by experimentation and observation one could see that this principle often works among humans. Laws are simply attempts to put into writing those things that from time to time illogical (and inebriated ) people tend to forget or overlook.
<strong>But by agreeing to, say, the ten commandments, he is bending your will. I kind of like the whole not killing thing, but to be honest the adultery thing doesn't bother me that much. By taking his word as gospel (Excuse the terminology), you have to adhere to every word.
You wouldn't do that in politics, would you? You vote for the party that matches your own beliefs most closely, but do you then take every word uttered by a Republican or Democrat as gospel?</strong><hr></blockquote>
How is this the same? A politician is not God, thus it is not even the same thing, unless i am misunderstanding your analogy it holds no water at all.
BTW, God giving us the Ten Commandments does not force us to follow them. There is no divine hand twisting your arm when you choose to ignore the Adultry Commandment. Is there? You choose not to follow it thus showing that free will exists for you. You choose what to follow or not based on that. However I choose to bend my will towards God. Once gain, a choice I have made, not something forced on me.
[quote]<strong>If this "God" exists, he's made some almighty (literally) ****-ups.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How so? The only possibility I can see as a interpretation of a mistake is the allowance of free will. And even then there is a purpose in that. I do not know what it is, if I did then these answers would be much simpler for me.
I only wish to answer one part of your post, the rest falls in the boundries of the question I put forth and requires no answer really. This part just stood out to me.
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>Nature has existed and thrived for billions of years (or thousands if you go by bible) without praying to a god or having the son of a god die for their sins. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The bible states that the heavens declare the glory of god, and the firmament His handiwork. However, going one step further. Nature did not sin, man did. Nature however was cursed because of mans sins. This was a punisment for man, to make his days harder due to weeds and such. But Nature was not the the sinner, just the unfortunate part that was used to punish man for his sin. Look it up in Genesis.
So nature does not need a savior, man does. Once man is saved from sin, the curse on nature will be lifted. That is also in the bible, I cannot recall the chapter and verse right now.
Comments
NoahJ, check this out. I've been reading texts recorded by a German linguist called Wilhlem Bleek at the end of the 1800s; he sat down with an extinct hunting and gathering people called the /Xam, from the Northern Cape of South Africa, and transcribed some 12,000 pages of myth, ritual and poetry over a period of fourteen years. Their language was a 'click' language; African click languages are the oldest languages we know. Their surviving relatives have the most ancient genes on the planet (so says mitochondrial decay rates, dontchaknow.) Bleek's document is the largest, most complete record of an extinct people's cosmology, and tells us about the world's most ancient religious practices.
It tells us we've had to get very, very comfortable indeed before we earned a God as nice as... well, God. They were a shamanic people, like all hunting and gathering peoples, and didn't distinguish between the spiritual and the physical at all; they had one word for story, history, news and myth, 'kum', and didn't distinguish between them because their survival in a terribly inhospitable environment depended on, for want of a better word, magic.
The religious instinct is hardwired in the brain. (It really is: you can stimulate a sense of the numinous by exciting specific parts of your grey matter. But that's another story.) It allowed us to draw connections between otherwise unconnectable information offered to us by the environment, explained to ourselves symbolically, and this takes enormous imaginative resources.
Agriculture changed all that. If the rains failed, we didn't die of thirst; if our arrows missed, we didn't die of hunger. We didn't need that mythic conception of the planet any more. We're comfortable now because of farming, and we've only been doing that for 10,000 years, which is nothing.
So 90% of human history is hunting and gathering, and it's left its mark; those colossal imaginative resources haven't gone away. We have cool stuff: my G4ti, Miles Davis, the axioms of the Buddah. But we have Sunni, Shi'a and Ismaeli Muslims killing each other over the sanctity of the Prophet's nephews, and we have Protestant and Catholic Christians killing each other over the individual's proximity to God.
The creator figure of the /Xam was a guy called /Kaggen, and he did not give a stuff. They saw that if there was a creator, he had a sense of humour, his work was beautiful, and he was under no obligation to be nice at all. No 'the ways of God are mysterious' for them at all.
We've got God because our ancestors needed a sense of the numinous to tag their symbols onto. The Christian God is a darn nice chap, but he's what you're left with after 10,000 years of getting comfy with farming.
Of course you're utterly, utterly convinced of the existence of God. Actually, you believe it as though your life depended on it. We haven't caught up with ourselves yet.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
a Congregationalist is a person who belongs to a church called a congregation. Mine is part of the United Church of Christ. I've heard of several other Congregationalist churches near me (I lie in CT) but I doubt that my brand of faith lives outside New England.
It's the ideal American church in my opinion. The minister has no authority, other than having people smile and generally do what he suggests. The power lies in the congregation - all choices are made by churchgoers who volunteer their time, and all donations are made completely freewill.
The minister spends most of his 6-day workweek (he has one day off. Wednesday? TUesday? Not sure) working in the name of the church. The church gives him a house to live in and a reasonable wage for his long hours, and he spends his days helping people. We recently hired a very nice lady to be our associate minister (not the first woman to be a minister in our church - but one of few. IT seems that few women go to seminary school), and I imagine she will help our main minister go around... ministering. They go to hospitals, serve as unofficial social workers, serve as mediators, are confidential listeners... very good people.
The services are mostly run by the congregation. A random member of the people comes up every week to lead prayers and read the Bible. The choirs are open to any churchgoer. The only actual jobs on Sunday are the music master's playing of the organ dyuring hymns and the minister giving a sermon. It seems best to leave sermos to a professional speaker.
SO that's congregationalism. The democratic Christians.
AS for your other remarks - I have any number of stories explaining things. The ppoint is I DON'[t BELIEVE THE BIBLE. IOt's a very nice set of stories, but as a historic document of things that HAPPENED, such as a virgin woman giving birth or men rising or being raised from the dead, or speaking byurning bushes for that matter, it's a crock. I'll take the morals, and I'll follow them, but I will not believe the stories,.
<strong>
Everyone says there are contradictions, and some provide evidence of their views, but most just spout it and have nothing to back up their claim. I have found nothing that contradicts so far, do you care to provide evidence of your own? In your interpretation it may seem to contradict, but usually I find that this is because you are limiting the scope of your interpretation too much and are not reading the passage in the context of the entire scriptures.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well let me start by saying that I do not claim to be a bible expert, or claim to know how to read between the lines of these passages. As for your saying that jesus chose to come to earth, I think you are WAY off base on that. If you beleive the immaculate conception theory as the good book states, Jesus would have been born just as natural as any child, no choice in this matter. As far as his having choices AFTER birth I will agree with you on that one, otherwise you must be subscribing to the notion of pre-destinantion, that all people have their life and death planned ahead by god, and I have real problems with this notion. How could any creator be so arrogant as to determine at birth who lives and who and dies and when,or, if they live well or in poverty, etc? I will not tell you that I can argue away each contradiction, but how can God suppossedly be so loving and forgiving, yet destroy on a whim? You state that even 10 people could not be found wothy in Soddom and Gommora(sp)yet where was this all out love for man then. The flooding of the earth that he created, what about that? You say I am off base about a bad temper issue here, but you provide nothing more substantial than it was God's will. In a simple veiw such as mine such a gracious God as the christians make him out to be would not do the things that you say are his will. He has done nothing more than reduce himself to the level of man by commiting these acts of destruction.How can this be viewed as holly? As for the prophetic foreboding of Revelations I will refer back to my original comment on the pre-destination issue. Pre-destination is nothing more than playing a puppet master to living things. A simple analogy of this would be as follows: you have a dog that gives birth to a litter of puppies, as they are born you are deciding which will live and which will die at your desire, then expect them to think of you as meciful and loving. I know this is a bad example but it is the best I can do to show my point about this. Destruction for any reason is beyond my grasp. And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?
<strong>
Well let me start by saying that I do not claim to be a bible expert, or claim to know how to read between the lines of these passages. As for your saying that jesus chose to come to earth, I think you are WAY off base on that. If you beleive the immaculate conception theory as the good book states, Jesus would have been born just as natural as any child, no choice in this matter. As far as his having choices AFTER birth I will agree with you on that one, otherwise you must be subscribing to the notion of pre-destinantion, that all people have their life and death planned ahead by god, and I have real problems with this notion. How could any creator be so arrogant as to determine at birth who lives and who and dies and when,or, if they live well or in poverty, etc? I will not tell you that I can argue away each contradiction, but how can God suppossedly be so loving and forgiving, yet destroy on a whim? You state that even 10 people could not be found wothy in Soddom and Gommora(sp)yet where was this all out love for man then. The flooding of the earth that he created, what about that? You say I am off base about a bad temper issue here, but you provide nothing more substantial than it was God's will. In a simple veiw such as mine such a gracious God as the christians make him out to be would not do the things that you say are his will. He has done nothing more than reduce himself to the level of man by commiting these acts of destruction.How can this be viewed as holly? As for the prophetic foreboding of Revelations I will refer back to my original comment on the pre-destination issue. Pre-destination is nothing more than playing a puppet master to living things. A simple analogy of this would be as follows: you have a dog that gives birth to a litter of puppies, as they are born you are deciding which will live and which will die at your desire, then expect them to think of you as meciful and loving. I know this is a bad example but it is the best I can do to show my point about this. Destruction for any reason is beyond my grasp. And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Interesting questions. Let me give my view on predestination. Some people feel that God causes all things to happen and they look at it as you are describing it, "the man was born, he will die in this way because I will it." -God
I see it a bit differently. "The man was born, I see that down the road he will come to this end through his own choices and circumstances." -God
There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.
Also, and I have nothing specific to back me up on this either so we can put it under Noah's beliefs, I believe that Jesus chose to come to earth. In order for the sacrifice to mean anything he had to become a mortal man, succeptible to all things other mortal men are succeptible to, and thus he was born to a virgin so that it could not be said that he was any human mans son. He chose to come to earth, and the rest stands as said before.
As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.
And even further off base here, what about children who die at birth or before becoming of age to be "saved"?
In the bible it states the son will no longer pay for the sins of the father. I don't have the exact quote so if anyone cares to look up chapter and verse and correct any mistakes please do. However, when a child is very young, and has no recognition of right or wrong, I don't believe they are held accountable for their actions. Once they are old enough to choose, they become responsible and thus are held accountable. Don't ask me the age line, I could not even guess.
That is my opinion on that, I would be intersted to hear anyone elses thoughts on the subject though.
<strong>NoahJ,
Elain Pagels, "The Origin of Satan" You desperately need to get some scholarly reading on Jesus, G-d, Pilate, the Romans, the Bible, etc etc. These little dogmas of yours are quite disturbing when you think about it. Why don't you just become a Jehova's Witness and be done with it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please explain? I have thought about them, and the only one disturbed here appears to be you. That and miserable... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
From what I understand Greek and Hebrew has no word for superstitions and such as well since they took it for granted that the spirit realm was as real as the physical. Your point is?
NoahJ
<strong>There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So God doesn't determine our fate?
[quote]<strong>As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So God does determine our fate?
<strong>
So God does determine our fate?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good reply belle...this is where the confusion sets in for the non-beleiver Noahj and i do not think I am alone here on this.
<strong>
As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is this sort of thing not a contradiction? Wouldnt wiping out civilizations because he/she/it felt they were unworthy violate the whole "shalt not kill" thingy? I have great trouble believing in a great merciful, loving god who would commit such great acts of mass murder. It's not just god, he also sends others to do the same... In Joshua 6:19-21, god commands Joshua and his army to attack Jericho and slaughter every man, woman, and child in the city. How can this be justified as a loving act?
-Ryan (former christian)
<strong>
There is a slight diffrence that many will not see. God does not force us to act in a certain way (so far as I can tell) but being Omniscient he knows what has happened, what is happening and what will happen and thus already knows the day you are born how your life will end. It will happen through your own choices, not through God pulling your puppet strings.[qb]
Yet the Christian beleif in satan is as strong as to say he can influence ones actions..what is up here? satan and all his badness sure has a strong hold on the christian beleiver. I personally beleive satan was invented by man as a crutch for his own iniquity, yes i know the bible refers to satan quite often, but to beleive you have a path set by god that he (god) does not control but in the same breath beleive satan can control man is a little contradictory.
____________________________________
Also, and I have nothing specific to back me up on this either so we can put it under Noah's beliefs, I believe that Jesus chose to come to earth. In order for the sacrifice to mean anything he had to become a mortal man, succeptible to all things other mortal men are succeptible to, and thus he was born to a virgin so that it could not be said that he was any human mans son. He chose to come to earth, and the rest stands as said before.[qb]
____________________________________
Again, the fact of birth being immaculate is proof of pre-destination if god knows what will happen to all people.
____________________________________
As far as the temper issue, by defintion God is right in whatever he chooses to do. If he decided to wipe out the Eastern Seaboard tomorrow he is God, so who are we to tell him that it is right or wrong? If you believe you have that authority then you have removed the fact that He is God and placed Him under your authority. And then He could not be God but someone or something else.</strong><hr></blockquote>
as gentlemen we can agree to disagree on this one. I can see no right in the suffering of innocent children or their destruction even if it is god's will.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
<strong>
So God does determine our fate?</strong><hr></blockquote>
God knows our fate. Whether the end of that fate is tied to an act of His or an act of your fellow man is not the point. I am disagreeing with the point people make that God somehow forces us to be some way and that we have no decision in the matter. God is in control, but He does not force us to bend to His will. He lets us know what His will is, it is up to us to follow it or not.
<strong>Is this sort of thing not a contradiction? Wouldnt wiping out civilizations because he/she/it felt they were unworthy violate the whole "shalt not kill" thingy? I have great trouble believing in a great merciful, loving god who would commit such great acts of mass murder. It's not just god, he also sends others to do the same... In Joshua 6:19-21, god commands Joshua and his army to attack Jericho and slaughter every man, woman, and child in the city. How can this be justified as a loving act?
-Ryan (former christian)</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, that would not violate that. God is perfect, so being perfect he cannot do anything that is wrong. He is also the divine judge, jury and executioner so to speak. He is the beginning and the ending. To take any of these away from him is to make him not God. Anything less than all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, all being, and perfect is not God. The second we place any limitations on Him we have made Him not God anymore.
I am even guilty of this, probably even in some of my posts on these very threads.
However, God is not bound by the law He set out, nor is He under the law. He is the law. Is is a paradigm shift that is hard to grasp when you allow yourself to believe in a God that is somehow limited.
<strong>I am disagreeing with the point people make that God somehow forces us to be some way and that we have no decision in the matter. God is in control, but He does not force us to bend to His will. He lets us know what His will is, it is up to us to follow it or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
But by agreeing to, say, the ten commandments, he is bending your will. I kind of like the whole not killing thing, but to be honest the adultery thing doesn't bother me that much. By taking his word as gospel (Excuse the terminology), you have to adhere to every word.
You wouldn't do that in politics, would you? You vote for the party that matches your own beliefs most closely, but do you then take every word uttered by a Republican or Democrat as gospel?
[quote]<strong>God is perfect, so being perfect he cannot do anything that is wrong. He is also the divine judge, jury and executioner so to speak.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If this "God" exists, he's made some almighty (literally) ****-ups.
[ 05-01-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
1) Do you believe god is all powerful?
2) Do you believe in satan?
3) Do you believe humans are the only creation of god that have free will?
<strong>NoahJ. I'm going to ask you some yes or no questions. Please simply provide a yes or no answer.
1) Do you believe god is all powerful?
2) Do you believe in satan?
3) Do you believe humans are the only creation of god that have free will?</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No
Logic and Nature.
All humans are blessed with the ability to examine and comprehend their surroundings. Religion has always served to provide people with an understanding of events beyond their current ability to explain. Science has advanced greatly in the past thousands of years but there are still uncountable scientific mysteries in the universe and on our own planet earth. What we think we know is but a fraction of what exists around us every day. Nature has existed and thrived for billions of years (or thousands if you go by bible) without praying to a god or having the son of a god die for their sins. Perhaps the model by which to live is all around us, we only have to open our minds to accept and attempt to understand a portion of it with our feeble minds.
Logic can help one to determine the correct way to act and guidelines to follow in life without the help of a reference like the Bible. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Simply by experimentation and observation one could see that this principle often works among humans. Laws are simply attempts to put into writing those things that from time to time illogical (and inebriated
<strong>But by agreeing to, say, the ten commandments, he is bending your will. I kind of like the whole not killing thing, but to be honest the adultery thing doesn't bother me that much. By taking his word as gospel (Excuse the terminology), you have to adhere to every word.
You wouldn't do that in politics, would you? You vote for the party that matches your own beliefs most closely, but do you then take every word uttered by a Republican or Democrat as gospel?</strong><hr></blockquote>
How is this the same? A politician is not God, thus it is not even the same thing, unless i am misunderstanding your analogy it holds no water at all.
BTW, God giving us the Ten Commandments does not force us to follow them. There is no divine hand twisting your arm when you choose to ignore the Adultry Commandment. Is there? You choose not to follow it thus showing that free will exists for you. You choose what to follow or not based on that. However I choose to bend my will towards God. Once gain, a choice I have made, not something forced on me.
[quote]<strong>If this "God" exists, he's made some almighty (literally) ****-ups.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How so? The only possibility I can see as a interpretation of a mistake is the allowance of free will. And even then there is a purpose in that. I do not know what it is, if I did then these answers would be much simpler for me.
<strong>
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No</strong><hr></blockquote>
You answered no to the free will question. Well, now I'm going to ask you to elaborate please. Which of god's creations have free will?
[quote]Originally posted by Eskimo:
<strong>Nature has existed and thrived for billions of years (or thousands if you go by bible) without praying to a god or having the son of a god die for their sins. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The bible states that the heavens declare the glory of god, and the firmament His handiwork. However, going one step further. Nature did not sin, man did. Nature however was cursed because of mans sins. This was a punisment for man, to make his days harder due to weeds and such. But Nature was not the the sinner, just the unfortunate part that was used to punish man for his sin. Look it up in Genesis.
So nature does not need a savior, man does. Once man is saved from sin, the curse on nature will be lifted. That is also in the bible, I cannot recall the chapter and verse right now.