Let's hope MIke and Jim will return to the marketing company that came up with the iconic name Blackberry. To call a me-too product by a me-too name is to me too much.
Something cheap v. Something expensive in the category
The list is virtually endless. If it's cheaper it opens it up to more potential customers, but it also has to be more cheaply produced to make it viable for your market. Some things you work around to save costs without jeopardizing quality but typically it's done by cutting many corners, thus making a comparatively inferior product. RiM has done well to cut costs while maximizing profits (they're a great company), but I wouldn't call any RiM phone equal to or "ferior" to the iPhone.
IMO, your list is not valid, because you are not comparing equivalent products as you raised in your last point (in the same category). you have drawn categories so vaguely (e.g., food) that they are relatively meaningless.
The appropriate list would be (we will leave out the OSX vs MS comparison).
Ruths Chris vs. Mortons
McDonalds vs Burger King
MacBook Pro vs HP Envy
if RC made a horrible steak they would be out of business or doing much less worse than Mortons (or visa versa).
Limited-capability OS + lack of any real touch capabilities a la Apple + Apple ratcheting up to new model in 2011 + Apple's app base + iTunes Store + One year's lead in sorting out manufacturing/quality issues + Apple stores where people can familiarize themselves with this new product + Little or no learning involved for a large existing base of iPhone/iPod Touch users + Time taken by corporate IT departments to make mass purchase decisions + RIM having to ship product from its warehouses (i.e., not via service provider outlets) + Lack of Apple's coolness factor = RIM fail.
I'm assuming the Blackpad is fully compatible with Blackberries. All the backend is already up and running and any business apps they have for existing Blackberries should just work. I must say I have never used a product by RiM so I don't know just what the investment a company would be throwing away to switch to Apple. I assume transitioning from RiM to Apple would incur some costs. There are also plenty of Blackberry users I know who will not give up a physical keyboard.
I do like my iPad, but many of the advantages are really for the home user. I doubt corporate IT departments care there is a quarter million apps in the App Store as most of them are non-business or want to send large numbers of employees to an Apple store to familiarize themselves with Apple products. It makes me wonder about iPhones in business. How much of it is IT departments opening up their Exchange servers so people can use their own personal iPhones and how much is full adoption where the iPhones are provided by company and run custom business apps? Do companies really install iTunes on their desktops?
Overall, I cannot see RiM even making a small dent in the consumer market; however, they are very strong in the corporate world so I wouldn't write them off just yet.
Perhaps, perhaps not. By November the number of folks that couldn't stand waiting any longer could end up being very small.
Look at businesses. Airlines renting ipads for in flight entertainment. Restaurants using ipads for menus and ordering systems. Stanford putting ipads in the hands of all med school students, various smaller colleges making ipads an option for 'free tech' for incoming students. There was even an article here on AI about a week ago about the last earnings report and statements that 50% of the Fortune 100 were using or testing ipads. Etextbooks and podcasted lectures are the new hip thing and students will need whatever by Sept. Weeks before this 'blackpad' will be an option.
Only the "I will not buy it no matter what because it's f'ing" Apple folks could be all that is left. And that's such a small group compared to the other side that the war may be lost before the battle starts.
He stated that RIM is a company trapped by inferior quality, hence my statement regarding sad . .
YoY profits are not relevant to the point he was making. He stated that RIM makes a limited number (lack of product differentiation) crappy (inferior quality) products.
If that was really true, then they should not be selling many phones, no matter what the profit margin on a phone is or what their YoY profits are.
Stop hyperventilating, and attributing things to me that I did not say.
You understand neither 'product differentiation' nor 'quality' as it relates to margins. Moreover, you appear to have missed the context. Both the story and the comment are solely about new product introductions.
Since you brought it up, I should tell you that Apple's profit margin is about 21%, compared to RIM's ~18%. Considering that Apple's profits are confounded with the (extremely competitive) computer segment, it masks the even higher margins on the iPhones relative to Blackberrys. If truly related businesses were compared, RIM will probably fare much worse on margins. And the lower margins are very likely associated with both a relative lack of differentiation and relatively lower quality.
Add: The main point of my original comment, which you appear to have completely missed, is how Apple's profit margins have become a de facto entry barrier for companies introducing new products in segments in which Apple already competes.
the berry pad doesn't have a chance in hell to match the ipad's specs, unless rim is selling it at 1% profit, which the way everyone in the tec industry is panicked out of their minds with the ipad, that could well be the case. Now how many apps this thing is going to run is anyone's guess...
I really can't see this succeeding in the consumer market unless:
1) They have a superior product to Apple, not just in terms of features, but also in "wow factor". This is the main problem for competitors to both the iPhone and the iPod before it.
2) They price it lower and go for the cheaper, but almost as good concept. But even this tactic isn't guaranteed to work - just look at the other smart phones out there.
It could succeed in the business market, but again there are problems here too. Not least of which is the fragile global economy, and in such circumstances not many are going to invest heavily in IT, especially for things like a tablet, when they could make do with cheaper alternatives.
I wish them well but I have yet to see a decent touchscreen device from the HW to the OS to the UI from RiM, so I’m not sure if they can make a passable tablet out of the gate.
Does free Blackberry tethering count? While I think this is a nice offer for people they really need to have a 3G version. Making your phone a hotspot for your tablet can be cumbersome and power draining. If this is for use with a business phone this could be a real issue for some.
Yeah, besides the price, and RIM not having made hardware+software devices bigger than smartphones, this was the other main thing I was thinking of. So the WiFi BlackPad is the same price as the iPad, and there's no 3G version you have to tether it when you're out and about.
Hmmm Blackfail?
Nonetheless I welcome more competitors to the space. It's only been, uh, almost 8 months since Apple fully announced and then shipped the iPad.
You all do realise that Blackberry, HP and Microsoft are only in the past month coming out with tablet plans; because Apple's earning report was a real blowout and the iPad is clearly more successful than even Apple thought.
Great business strategy, RIM, HP and MS!
"Yeah, uh... let's all announce some great vapourware at CES 2010..."
Apple comes out with iPad
"Uh... nah, who'll want that..."
Apple appears to do well with iPad
"Hmmm let's see where this goes"
Apple announces blowout calendar Q2 2010 results, iPads continually sold out
"O.M.F.G. QUICK! to the insta-announce-some-productocrap-mobile!"
Yeah, besides the price, and RIM not having made hardware+software devices bigger than smartphones, this was the other main thing I was thinking of.
Good point. Even making a touchscreen smartphone put them far out of their element. I hear the the next Storm will have a capacitance touchscreen. I hope so, for their sake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvidia2008
I don't want nobody grasping mah berries...!
If RiM gives up on this idea and says publicly, in any way, that they didn?t want to make a tablet anyway then I vote that they phrase ?sour grapes? be changed to ?sour berries?.
listen to what your customers want, and dont act like you are the only kid on the block,, as apple will learn just like sony did,, no one is irreplaceable, and oh ya get southern ontario another NHL team ,, that will be awesome also..
Blackpad is sorta cool I think. Sorta sounds like a Stealth jet version.
Anyway I welcome the competition. Keep Apple honest.
I could overheat though. They cancelled one of the RIM debuts here a couple years back because the new BBs overheated.
I agree. RIM is a good competitor, and a RIM-branded tablet that can carve out a niche in business further legitimizes tablet computing, something that Microsoft has been crowing about for over a decade, but hasn't been able to sell.
Stop ragging on RIM. They were the revolutionary product once upon a time. And they have cred with IT departments and with commercial and industrial users. I could see my hospital adopting a RIM pad before they'd ever go Apple.
I think anyone planning on a tablet now is doing the right thing. Apple created this tablet market with a rich but highly optimized OS and UI from scratch so there is plenty of opportunities for others to jump in, especially those who have experience with leading HW and SW development for a mobile device the wy RiM does. I can easily see RiM being the 2nd most profitable tablet maker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlando
I'm assuming the Blackpad is fully compatible with Blackberries. All the backend is already up and running and any business apps they have for existing Blackberries should just work. I must say I have never used a product by RiM so I don't know just what the investment a company would be throwing away to switch to Apple. I assume transitioning from RiM to Apple would incur some costs. There are also plenty of Blackberry users I know who will not give up a physical keyboard.
I'm not so sure. On the surface, RIM's strong position in business might be attractive. One might picture that Apple would dominate the consumer side and RIM the business side. On further reflection, though, I think this breaks down.
The average Blackberry user is a corporate drone using what's forced on them by IT. IT, by its nature, is going to go for business-focused devices with plenty of power. They're not going to be swayed by form factor, ease of use, flexibility, or the plethora of non-business apps that a tablet makes possible. In essence, the biggest response I can see from Blackberry IT groups is "if you need a notebook, get a Windows notebook. If you need a phone, get a Blackberry). I'm just not sure they're capable of seeing the value of a mini-tablet comparable to the iPad. In fact, they were among the loudest nay-sayers. So, the group which has the potential to make the BlackPad successful is likely to be neutral - at best - or negative. If RIM is going to be even moderately successful with this product, they have to seriously change their white shirt and pocket protector image.
I think Apple's success with the iPad (and iPod and iPhone before that) was based on creating a high level of consumer pull and excitement among users. The entire "you can use this for games and watching movies as well as business presentations" goes against the entire RIM modus operandi. Because of that, I think the ultimate #2 in that market will be a consumer products company - or, at least, someone with more experience with consumers than RIM. if HP integrates PalmOS properly, I could see HP as a strong #2. Or maybe Sony - if they ever get their act together. Maybe even Dell going after the 'cheap' side of the market.
Stop ragging on RIM. They were the revolutionary product once upon a time. And they have cred with IT departments and with commercial and industrial users. I could see my hospital adopting a RIM pad before they'd ever go Apple.
I think that's an interesting guess - because hospitals are already moving forward with iPads pretty quickly. Just yesterday, for example:
It comes down to independence vs. control. The entire Blackberry success story was one of getting in with IT departments and having their product declared a standard to make the IT managers' jobs easier. Unless they can duplicate that with the BlackPad, they don't have a chance. And given how loudly IT managers spoke out against the entire concept of the iPad, I just don't see it happening.
As far as differentiating their product goes, RIM have possibilities to offer a more productive combination of a Blackberry+Blackpad than the iPhone+iPad. Tethering the Blackpad to Blackberries will relieve users from an unnecessary duplication of the 3G radio, while the thumb keys of the Blackberry could be used as an additional input method for their tablet, for example.
If they stayed focused, this Blackpad could have some limited success. I am not holding my breath though.
Are you kidding. No executive will rock an iPhone or android. Blackberry is as standard as the suit and tie and I doubt that will change. All RIM has to do is make sure it stays somewhat current (which it will with Blackberry 6) and just like MS they will have a long and healthy life in the enterprise. I doubt RIM really cares much for the consumer market.
Addition: Well maybe some executives now that I think of it, but most business owners I've met had blackberries because they are blackberries and that's what business people use.
The thing is, they do. Many Execs use iPhone's, alright not as many as RIM but still some. The only niggle is Outlook. Brands are only as good as the product it's on. If RIM becomes worse than Apple than iPhone will become as standard as a suit. Not saying RIM's phones are bad, but change happens.
Comments
It tends to be quite the opposite in most cases.
- McDonalds meal v. Ruth Chris' Steakhouse
- Mac OS X v. Windows
- MacBook Pros v. $400 Notebooks
- Something cheap v. Something expensive in the category
The list is virtually endless. If it's cheaper it opens it up to more potential customers, but it also has to be more cheaply produced to make it viable for your market. Some things you work around to save costs without jeopardizing quality but typically it's done by cutting many corners, thus making a comparatively inferior product. RiM has done well to cut costs while maximizing profits (they're a great company), but I wouldn't call any RiM phone equal to or "ferior" to the iPhone.IMO, your list is not valid, because you are not comparing equivalent products as you raised in your last point (in the same category). you have drawn categories so vaguely (e.g., food) that they are relatively meaningless.
The appropriate list would be (we will leave out the OSX vs MS comparison).
Ruths Chris vs. Mortons
McDonalds vs Burger King
MacBook Pro vs HP Envy
if RC made a horrible steak they would be out of business or doing much less worse than Mortons (or visa versa).
Yeah?
Limited-capability OS + lack of any real touch capabilities a la Apple + Apple ratcheting up to new model in 2011 + Apple's app base + iTunes Store + One year's lead in sorting out manufacturing/quality issues + Apple stores where people can familiarize themselves with this new product + Little or no learning involved for a large existing base of iPhone/iPod Touch users + Time taken by corporate IT departments to make mass purchase decisions + RIM having to ship product from its warehouses (i.e., not via service provider outlets) + Lack of Apple's coolness factor = RIM fail.
I'm assuming the Blackpad is fully compatible with Blackberries. All the backend is already up and running and any business apps they have for existing Blackberries should just work. I must say I have never used a product by RiM so I don't know just what the investment a company would be throwing away to switch to Apple. I assume transitioning from RiM to Apple would incur some costs. There are also plenty of Blackberry users I know who will not give up a physical keyboard.
I do like my iPad, but many of the advantages are really for the home user. I doubt corporate IT departments care there is a quarter million apps in the App Store as most of them are non-business or want to send large numbers of employees to an Apple store to familiarize themselves with Apple products. It makes me wonder about iPhones in business. How much of it is IT departments opening up their Exchange servers so people can use their own personal iPhones and how much is full adoption where the iPhones are provided by company and run custom business apps? Do companies really install iTunes on their desktops?
Overall, I cannot see RiM even making a small dent in the consumer market; however, they are very strong in the corporate world so I wouldn't write them off just yet.
The battle is joined!
Perhaps, perhaps not. By November the number of folks that couldn't stand waiting any longer could end up being very small.
Look at businesses. Airlines renting ipads for in flight entertainment. Restaurants using ipads for menus and ordering systems. Stanford putting ipads in the hands of all med school students, various smaller colleges making ipads an option for 'free tech' for incoming students. There was even an article here on AI about a week ago about the last earnings report and statements that 50% of the Fortune 100 were using or testing ipads. Etextbooks and podcasted lectures are the new hip thing and students will need whatever by Sept. Weeks before this 'blackpad' will be an option.
Only the "I will not buy it no matter what because it's f'ing" Apple folks could be all that is left. And that's such a small group compared to the other side that the war may be lost before the battle starts.
Anyway I welcome the competition. Keep Apple honest.
I could overheat though. They cancelled one of the RIM debuts here a couple years back because the new BBs overheated.
He stated that RIM is a company trapped by inferior quality, hence my statement regarding sad . .
YoY profits are not relevant to the point he was making. He stated that RIM makes a limited number (lack of product differentiation) crappy (inferior quality) products.
If that was really true, then they should not be selling many phones, no matter what the profit margin on a phone is or what their YoY profits are.
Stop hyperventilating, and attributing things to me that I did not say.
You understand neither 'product differentiation' nor 'quality' as it relates to margins. Moreover, you appear to have missed the context. Both the story and the comment are solely about new product introductions.
Since you brought it up, I should tell you that Apple's profit margin is about 21%, compared to RIM's ~18%. Considering that Apple's profits are confounded with the (extremely competitive) computer segment, it masks the even higher margins on the iPhones relative to Blackberrys. If truly related businesses were compared, RIM will probably fare much worse on margins. And the lower margins are very likely associated with both a relative lack of differentiation and relatively lower quality.
Add: The main point of my original comment, which you appear to have completely missed, is how Apple's profit margins have become a de facto entry barrier for companies introducing new products in segments in which Apple already competes.
1) They have a superior product to Apple, not just in terms of features, but also in "wow factor". This is the main problem for competitors to both the iPhone and the iPod before it.
2) They price it lower and go for the cheaper, but almost as good concept. But even this tactic isn't guaranteed to work - just look at the other smart phones out there.
It could succeed in the business market, but again there are problems here too. Not least of which is the fragile global economy, and in such circumstances not many are going to invest heavily in IT, especially for things like a tablet, when they could make do with cheaper alternatives.
I wish them well but I have yet to see a decent touchscreen device from the HW to the OS to the UI from RiM, so I’m not sure if they can make a passable tablet out of the gate.
Does free Blackberry tethering count? While I think this is a nice offer for people they really need to have a 3G version. Making your phone a hotspot for your tablet can be cumbersome and power draining. If this is for use with a business phone this could be a real issue for some.
Yeah, besides the price, and RIM not having made hardware+software devices bigger than smartphones, this was the other main thing I was thinking of. So the WiFi BlackPad is the same price as the iPad, and there's no 3G version you have to tether it when you're out and about.
Hmmm Blackfail?
Nonetheless I welcome more competitors to the space. It's only been, uh, almost 8 months since Apple fully announced and then shipped the iPad.
You all do realise that Blackberry, HP and Microsoft are only in the past month coming out with tablet plans; because Apple's earning report was a real blowout and the iPad is clearly more successful than even Apple thought.
Great business strategy, RIM, HP and MS!
"Yeah, uh... let's all announce some great vapourware at CES 2010..."
Apple comes out with iPad
"Uh... nah, who'll want that..."
Apple appears to do well with iPad
"Hmmm let's see where this goes"
Apple announces blowout calendar Q2 2010 results, iPads continually sold out
"O.M.F.G. QUICK! to the insta-announce-some-productocrap-mobile!"
How about the Graspberry? ( get it? )
or the Juice ( the result of touching a blackberry )
I'm joking of course, but do you realize that real marketing people sit around and have conversations like this all day long?
I don't want nobody grasping mah berries...!
What OS will it run?
Nightshade OS
Seriously, that would be a cool name.
Yeah, besides the price, and RIM not having made hardware+software devices bigger than smartphones, this was the other main thing I was thinking of.
Good point. Even making a touchscreen smartphone put them far out of their element. I hear the the next Storm will have a capacitance touchscreen. I hope so, for their sake.
I don't want nobody grasping mah berries...!
If RiM gives up on this idea and says publicly, in any way, that they didn?t want to make a tablet anyway then I vote that they phrase ?sour grapes? be changed to ?sour berries?.
listen to what your customers want, and dont act like you are the only kid on the block,, as apple will learn just like sony did,, no one is irreplaceable, and oh ya get southern ontario another NHL team ,, that will be awesome also..
Shhh! The adults are are having a conversation.
Blackpad is sorta cool I think. Sorta sounds like a Stealth jet version.
Anyway I welcome the competition. Keep Apple honest.
I could overheat though. They cancelled one of the RIM debuts here a couple years back because the new BBs overheated.
I agree. RIM is a good competitor, and a RIM-branded tablet that can carve out a niche in business further legitimizes tablet computing, something that Microsoft has been crowing about for over a decade, but hasn't been able to sell.
I think anyone planning on a tablet now is doing the right thing. Apple created this tablet market with a rich but highly optimized OS and UI from scratch so there is plenty of opportunities for others to jump in, especially those who have experience with leading HW and SW development for a mobile device the wy RiM does. I can easily see RiM being the 2nd most profitable tablet maker.
I'm assuming the Blackpad is fully compatible with Blackberries. All the backend is already up and running and any business apps they have for existing Blackberries should just work. I must say I have never used a product by RiM so I don't know just what the investment a company would be throwing away to switch to Apple. I assume transitioning from RiM to Apple would incur some costs. There are also plenty of Blackberry users I know who will not give up a physical keyboard.
I'm not so sure. On the surface, RIM's strong position in business might be attractive. One might picture that Apple would dominate the consumer side and RIM the business side. On further reflection, though, I think this breaks down.
The average Blackberry user is a corporate drone using what's forced on them by IT. IT, by its nature, is going to go for business-focused devices with plenty of power. They're not going to be swayed by form factor, ease of use, flexibility, or the plethora of non-business apps that a tablet makes possible. In essence, the biggest response I can see from Blackberry IT groups is "if you need a notebook, get a Windows notebook. If you need a phone, get a Blackberry). I'm just not sure they're capable of seeing the value of a mini-tablet comparable to the iPad. In fact, they were among the loudest nay-sayers. So, the group which has the potential to make the BlackPad successful is likely to be neutral - at best - or negative. If RIM is going to be even moderately successful with this product, they have to seriously change their white shirt and pocket protector image.
I think Apple's success with the iPad (and iPod and iPhone before that) was based on creating a high level of consumer pull and excitement among users. The entire "you can use this for games and watching movies as well as business presentations" goes against the entire RIM modus operandi. Because of that, I think the ultimate #2 in that market will be a consumer products company - or, at least, someone with more experience with consumers than RIM. if HP integrates PalmOS properly, I could see HP as a strong #2. Or maybe Sony - if they ever get their act together. Maybe even Dell going after the 'cheap' side of the market.
Only time will tell, though.
Stop ragging on RIM. They were the revolutionary product once upon a time. And they have cred with IT departments and with commercial and industrial users. I could see my hospital adopting a RIM pad before they'd ever go Apple.
I think that's an interesting guess - because hospitals are already moving forward with iPads pretty quickly. Just yesterday, for example:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ples_ipad.html
It comes down to independence vs. control. The entire Blackberry success story was one of getting in with IT departments and having their product declared a standard to make the IT managers' jobs easier. Unless they can duplicate that with the BlackPad, they don't have a chance. And given how loudly IT managers spoke out against the entire concept of the iPad, I just don't see it happening.
If they stayed focused, this Blackpad could have some limited success. I am not holding my breath though.
Are you kidding. No executive will rock an iPhone or android. Blackberry is as standard as the suit and tie and I doubt that will change. All RIM has to do is make sure it stays somewhat current (which it will with Blackberry 6) and just like MS they will have a long and healthy life in the enterprise. I doubt RIM really cares much for the consumer market.
Addition: Well maybe some executives now that I think of it, but most business owners I've met had blackberries because they are blackberries and that's what business people use.
The thing is, they do. Many Execs use iPhone's, alright not as many as RIM but still some. The only niggle is Outlook. Brands are only as good as the product it's on. If RIM becomes worse than Apple than iPhone will become as standard as a suit. Not saying RIM's phones are bad, but change happens.