European Union joins FTC investigation into Apple's opposition of Flash

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  • Reply 181 of 238
    grkinggrking Posts: 533member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    I that would produce thousands of crapware apps. .



    Wow, I did not know that that EVERY app in the app store was a masterpiece, a real gem. The app store must have undergone a miraculous (literally) transformation in the hour or since I last visited.



    Personally, I do not care whether Apple blocks flash or not, but basing the argument on the introduction of "crappy" applications, as you like to state, is a bit disingenuous as the app store is profusely littered with pointless, crappy apps.
  • Reply 182 of 238
    I'm embarrassed I ever believed Apple when it said, "Think Different."



    Steve Jobs is a joke.
  • Reply 183 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    So you're going to let one man decide what's good for you forever? What ever happened to taking a little incentive to decide for yourselves?




    Yes! I am the one man who decides what's good for me... while I still have all my faculties!



    It just so happens that Apple has a product that meets my needs quite well-- so I decided to buy the "package". If I want to go further than what is provided by the Apple's app store (free or fee) I can do this as a developer on several levels:



    1) unlimited number of apps on my family's devices (local install).

    2) ad hoc distro to 100 remote devices for friends

    3) app store distro (abiding by rules) to over 100 million potential customers

    4) distro to JailBreak community.



    Of these, only the first three make sense to me-- why let my work product get ripped off.





    How many apps have you published or purchased that go beyond the limits of your app store of choice?



    .
  • Reply 184 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post


    I'm embarrassed I ever believed Apple when it said, "Think Different."



    Steve Jobs is a joke.



    Think Different means not going with the crowd just because of peer pressure. It means finding your own path, doing what feels right and natural to you. If Apple caves and lets Adobe mar the iOS experience with their unoptimized, second-rate plugins, how is that thinking different?
  • Reply 185 of 238
    ozexigeozexige Posts: 215member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by CraigAppleW View Post


    I'm embarrassed I ever believed Apple when it said, "Think Different."



    Steve Jobs is a joke.



    thank you for your considered input.



    dipstick
  • Reply 186 of 238
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post


    But does Apple have the right to force you not to use Flash and only proprietary software from them.



    If you mean the software licensing, Flash is as proprietary as iOS.



    Now in the case of streaming video formats, iOS4 supports MPEG4, which is an open standard, (even if there are some unresolved patent issues). Flash video remains closed.



    As far as Web content rendering and interactivity, iOS4 supports HTML5, which is a fully vendor-neutral standard, which is ideal for web pages. Web pages that depend on Flash for interactivity require a proprietary plug-in.



    So why would anyone want Flash over the non-Flash alternatives?



    Back to your original question, Apple retains no rights for a piece of hardware they sell you, but there are terms of service for software & services. I had to explain this to one of my denser fandroid friends: you own hardware, but you don't "own" the software or services. (This is technically true for all GNU and open source software too). If you use Apple's software, including the iOS and the phone's boot loader in ROM, then you are bound to the Licensing agreements, because you don't own the software; it's not yours. Similarly, the App Store has policies for users and developers, and in the Terms of Service, you will find the clause "Apple...reserves all rights not expressly granted to you." So short answer is: NO, you don't have the right.
  • Reply 187 of 238
    doroteadorotea Posts: 323member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    This isn't about forcing Apple to run Flash on the iPhone. The iPhone isn't a monopoly, and only, what, 3 or 4 phone models can even run Flash out of the hundreds or thousands out there. No one could enforce a ruling like that. I believe the investigation is ONLY about Apple banning software such as Flash from converting code to iPhone language-friendly apps. Even I see a problem with that. This doesn't hurt just Adobe. It hurts anyone out there that might have been trying to create a business around app portability between various app storefronts. And that in turn hurts app developers with limited resources attempting to port their apps to broader markets. This is where I see the harm. If the app code is written in Apple's accepted languages, it should be allowed regardless of being ported from another language. If the app is buggy or harmful, reject it as any other natively written app.



    I believe this is the only plausible judgment the FTC or EU could enforce. The iPhone AppStore is the leading storefront with the most apps available and the most apps sold, making it a market leader. Therefore opening up the AppStore to portable apps invigorates competition between storefronts and, through that, devices themselves.



    Don't care about the developers without ability to learn new programming constructs. How would it harm consumers to eliminate problems from poorly written , lowest common denominator applications?
  • Reply 188 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by timgriff84 View Post


    Not much of a solution if you'd just bought an iPhone!





    Did Apple twist your arm and force you to buy it? And besides, you have 30 days to return it for a full refund, in addition to getting a free case.
  • Reply 189 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post




    Adobe has no right to demand that proprietary software like Flash should be forced on people.










    That's the really scary part of the whole thing. Adobe using the full power and authority of the United States Government, to demand that their software should be forced on people. It is just surreal.
  • Reply 190 of 238
    asianbobasianbob Posts: 797member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Yes! I am the one man who decides what's good for me... while I still have all my faculties!



    It just so happens that Apple has a product that meets my needs quite well-- so I decided to buy the "package". If I want to go further than what is provided by the Apple's app store (free or fee) I can do this as a developer on several levels:



    1) unlimited number of apps on my family's devices (local install).

    2) ad hoc distro to 100 remote devices for friends

    3) app store distro (abiding by rules) to over 100 million potential customers

    4) distro to JailBreak community.



    Of these, only the first three make sense to me-- why let my work product get ripped off.





    How many apps have you published or purchased that go beyond the limits of your app store of choice?



    .



    Published? None, as I don't code. No disrespect to you, but it's just not my cup of tea. I do appreciate all the work you guys do to bring the apps to me.



    As for going outside the the Market, I pretty much have endless options. I have the ability to load any .apk file to my phone and install that app. This has both a good and bad side. Good is that there are a lot of beta apps that developers offer from their websites for willing testers to try out before they offer it on the Market. This allows me to add new features to my phone. I have done this many times to be able to try out the newest keyboards, Home launchers, overclocking apps, etc.



    The bad is that there is a "dark side" where malicious apps roam. This is where a bit of thinking comes into play. Before an app installs on Android, it always declares what parts of the phone it'll access. So if it's accessing more than it should, then there's obviously something wrong and you can back out before more harm is done.
  • Reply 191 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post


    Sort of off topic, but flash runs just fine on my EVO 4G (Froyo). I thought that it would run like crap given what everyone on these forums has said about flash performance.



    I wouldn't mind having the OPTION of using it on my iPhone 4.





    If you want options, stay with Android.



    With the iPhone, you need to realize that the main customer is the unsophisticated user who might get themselves into trouble with Flash. It would cost Apple way too much money to have to answer all there phone calls at AppleCare.



    So it is better to leave Flash off completely until everything about it works perfectly, like Cut and Paste.



    But because Adobe is so lazy, that will take forever. so the best thing is to use HTML5 and that is open standard.



    I think that Apple is doing the right thing.
  • Reply 192 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    The bad is that there is a "dark side" where malicious apps roam. This is where a bit of thinking comes into play. Before an app installs on Android, it always declares what parts of the phone it'll access. So if it's accessing more than it should, then there's obviously something wrong and you can back out before more harm is done.





    That sounds really complicated and scary. Why should I have to second-guess all that just to prevent my phone from being ruined? I just want to install good Apps!
  • Reply 193 of 238
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    HTML4 already builds better websites than Flash does. We don't need to wait for anything.



    I used to think you were a rational person but now after reading your rabid anti-Adobe rhetoric it is clear you are just as closed minded as the other Apple apologists like J & PP. You know very well what I meant but decided instead to spin it to be a antagonist. Clearly I was not comparing Flash to regular HTML, or advocating that websites should be coded in Flash. I was, for the 100th time saying that the HTML5 / JAVASCRIPT/ CSS3 / SVG / CANVAS which some propose to replace the functionality of Flash should have a proper IDE. Furthermore this is the last communication I will direct to you on the subject because you are insane.
  • Reply 194 of 238
    mazda 3smazda 3s Posts: 1,565member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    If you want options, stay with Android.



    With the iPhone, you need to realize that the main customer is the unsophisticated user who might get themselves into trouble with Flash. It would cost Apple way too much money to have to answer all there phone calls at AppleCare.



    So it is better to leave Flash off completely until everything about it works perfectly, like Cut and Paste.



    But because Adobe is so lazy, that will take forever. so the best thing is to use HTML5 and that is open standard.



    I think that Apple is doing the right thing.



    Well the EVO is my work phone, and the iPhone 4 is my personal phone.



    I'm just saying that the experience with Flash on my on my EVO 4G has pretty much mirrored my experience with my MacBook Pro -- pretty much flawless. And it's nice to be able to see 100% of the website I visit the way they were meant to be seen (without any hiccups).



    That's all I'm saying...
  • Reply 195 of 238
    asianbobasianbob Posts: 797member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SendMe View Post


    That sounds really complicated and scary. Why should I have to second-guess all that just to prevent my phone from being ruined? I just want to install good Apps!



    It's not complicated at all. All apps on Android declare what they're accessing without you doing anything. Just follow 2 simple rules:



    1. Know what the app you're installing is supposed to do

    2. Read what areas the app is accessing when it pops up



    If you think it's accessing more than it should, then don't install it. I personally prefer this extra level of control. This way even if a malicious app makes it into the Market, I can still stop it from doing harm.
  • Reply 196 of 238
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by grking View Post


    Wow, I did not know that that EVERY app in the app store was a masterpiece, a real gem. .





    The App Store is curated. That's how they keep the porno apps out, and other harmful stuff.
  • Reply 197 of 238
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,585member
    Why in the world should apple be forced to support a proprietary platform on the open internet???? This is ridiculous. And anti-competitive? How absurd. Apple is actively promoting and forcing competition by not allowing flash and by promoting open standards in HTML5. Period. It is truly amazing the number of morons out there!
  • Reply 198 of 238
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,570member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr Millmoss View Post


    We don't know the substance of Adobe's complaint and the facts they have apparently assembled in support of their case, which obviously were sufficient to make the FTC and EU pay attention. Clear as day, full stop. Follow it or don't. As for the Intel and Microsoft scenarios, that was also as clear as day, but I have given up any hope of you understanding the analogy no matter how often it is explained.



    So, it's an analogy where there are no similarities, other than that the FTC and EU regulators are "investigating", whatever that actually means? Well, if these are similar situations, and they aren't, then what sort of analogy is it? Not a very good one? Not one at all? I think the latter. What it is is you saying, "Look what happened to Microsoft, look what happened to Intel, there fate depends on which course they take." Well, no it doesn't, it depends on the particular circumstances related to this case, which have nothing in common with those circumstances. The reason you can't make me understand it is that there isn't anything to understand, because it's just not applicable.



    There, no "crap", happy?
  • Reply 199 of 238
    sennensennen Posts: 1,465member
    it's less about "lazy" developers than those that are seeing an opportunity cost to their earlier life choices: woe is me, at college i chose to learn a language other than C or Obj-C and now that area is really taking off I should be able to have my cake and eat it - by using porting software, and then in turn slow down the development of the entire platform when said porting tools become dominant and don't keep up with apple's API's.
  • Reply 200 of 238
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AsianBob View Post


    [Android Froyo/Flash numbers] Which will only increase in numbers, as there's nothing to indicate that Android's momentum is slowing any time soon.



    Phones are now starting to ship with 2.2 be default. All future iteration of Android will include the ability to run Flash, so as time goes on and Android starts taking a larger share of the total market, Flash will be there with it.



    That's nice. Even if true, it only weakens Adobe's argument. If Android is taking over the world and Android runs Flash, then Adobe doesn't have an argument.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    Time is money. If all I had to do to port an app was run it through a language converter, then test, and submit it, that saves time and money for any developer business. Rewriting an entire app to appease a large corporation is essentially strangling little guys out of the market.



    No, it's not. They can still write their crapware apps for Android. And AsianBob says that Android is taking over the market, so no harm done.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    What a bunch of BS. Adobe is not 'misusing' the FTC. They filed some papers. Adobe is not trying harm Apple. Adobe wants to work with Apple devices.



    All Adobe has to do is write a decent version of Flash. So far, they haven't done that. Instead, they're whining to any government body who will accept their cash.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by silverpraxis View Post


    I'm sorry but doesn't everyone have to update their apps everytime Apple updates their platform. Hell, I'm still waiting for some of the NATIVE apps I bought to get background push notifications, or even quick app switching! Your argument is moot. .



    No, it's not. SOME features require the app to be rewritten to take advantage of them, but most apps will continue to work without the features. But the important thing is that if Apple changes something, it's only up to the application developer to recompile and update their app. If the developer wants to sell more software, they'll update it.



    WIth a Flash to iApp converter, though, the developer can't update their app until Adobe updates the converter. So consumers have to wait for TWO companies to update their software. And given Adobe's historical slowness in updating their Apple stuff, that's an unnecessary delay.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cubert View Post


    "whether Apple's business practices harm competition."



    OK. I really want to hear the argument about how Apple excluding Flash from their iOS platform harms other mobile platforms. Sorry, can't even make a stretch.







    I'm also still trying to figure out the basic premise here, with Adobe claiming that Apple is hurting the competition:



    - Adobe says that Flash is critical to the Internet.

    - Adobe says that consumers want Flash

    - Apple doesn't have Flash on the iPhone while the latest version of Android does.



    Seems to me that Apple's position actually HELPS the competition rather than hurting it. The entire logic is bass-ackwards.
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