See, now making a prediction I’m fine with. I do disagree with your statement as I think the frame will still be the antenna for next year’s phones as the benefits far outweigh any cons.
However, if your argument is that Apple will “change” the antenna design in some way, I’ll point out that Apple has “changed" every iPhone with each new release. So what you stating is like wagering the sun will rise tomorrow. If you also argue that changing the antenna design in any way is proof that the iPhone 4 is flawed at the design level then I’ll point out that would mean that every iPhone has been flawed at the design level, as stated by such an argument. So what exactly are you wagering?
I'm wagering that if an iPhone comes to Verizon in 1st qtr 2011, it will look very similar to the current iPhone 4, have all the same features, except it will have a revised antenna design. Of course Apple won't admit they revised the antenna because of the flaw.
I'm wagering that if an iPhone comes to Verizon in 1st qtr 2011, it will look very similar to the current iPhone 4, have all same features, except it will have a revised antenna design. Of course Apple won't admit they revised the antenna because of the flaw.
So you?re still wagering that it will be using that ?design flaw? of having an antenna as the frame that you can can see and touch, but you?re saying that they will change the some aspect of the frame-antenna? Do I really need to point out that: A) there are physical chip differences that could easily cause the internals of the iPhone 4 to be different thus causing the way the internal structure of the iPhone 4 frame would look when taken apart, and CDMA/EVDO is a different technology that works differently with towers thus causing a change in antenna design for a CDMA/EVDO phone over a GSM/UMTS phone likely?
Again, what specific changes are you saying will happen because of this ?design flaw? from using the frame as the antenna?
So you’re still wagering that it will be using that “design flaw” of having an antenna as the frame that you can can see and touch, but you’re saying that they will change the some aspect of the frame-antenna? Do I really need to point out that: A) there are physical chip differences that could easily cause the internals of the iPhone 4 to be different thus causing the way the internal structure of the iPhone 4 frame would look when taken apart, and CDMA/EVDO is a different technology that works differently with towers thus causing a change in antenna design for a CDMA/EVDO phone over a GSM/UMTS phone likely?
Again, what specific changes are you saying will happen because of this “design flaw” from using the frame as the antenna?
Yes, I fully realize the points your brought up. And yes, I still believe they will keep an external antenna design. Because there are benefits to it, if done properly. I believe they will either have the gap in a better location, or some kind of material over it to prevent the detuning when touching the gap. And I believe the changes they make to the Verizon iPhone antenna (if one really appears) will be similar to the antenna changes they make for the GSM/UMTS iPhone 5.
You're totally off base. All it takes is one finger or a light touch in the wrong location on the iPhone 4 to knock its reception down a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ski1
... the iPhone has an unique issue. ...Completely different then attenuation that of course all phones have to varying degrees. ...
These are some of the people I was referring to. I particularly like the part where ski1 emphasizes that the problems other phones suffer are technically called by another name, while essentially admitting that the effect a user will experience is the same. And, of course, Foo2 who always holds his phone with one finger. Thanks for demonstrating my point so effectively guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foo2
CR is doing their job and, in my opinion, doing it well.
No, they aren't, and they never really have, with any product, unless you refer to their job of paying their own salaries. CR is the publication for the uninformed consumer, and as long as the consumer depends on CR, they are likely to stay that way.
These are some of the people I was referring to. I particularly like the part where ski1 emphasizes that the problems other phones suffer are technically called by another name, while essentially admitting that the effect a user will experience is the same.
LOL, I see that anonymouse is distorting facts again and putting words in my mouth. The problem with his flawed logic is that most phones do not lose 20 db in reception when holding it in a natural position. The iPhone 4 does lose 20 db of reception when holding it in a natural position. I wonder why anonymouse likes distorting facts
LOL, I see that anonymouse is distorting facts again and putting words in my mouth. The problem with his flawed logic is that most phones do not lose 20 db in reception when holding it in a natural position. The iPhone 4 does lose 20 db of reception when holding it in a natural position. I wonder why anonymouse likes distorting facts
Well, there is distortion of facts going on here, but not by me*. The dB issue has already been addressed ad nauseum and shown to be yet another red herring. I know your grasping at anything you can here, but, unfortunately, you are grasping at straws.
* For example, what words did I put in your mouth? None. I elided your response to emphasize the important parts (while a link to the original is available) and gave an accurate interpretation of your distinction (without a difference, to the user) between detuning and attenuation. You may wish to disavow your post, but, I have not in any way misinterpreted what you said, even if what you ended up saying isn't what you hoped to, and you were unable to make the point you wished to make. That failure is yours, not mine. The distortion of facts is yours as well.
+1 here. I haven't experinced problems thus far, and I do believe if there is a problem, it's with AT&T's network. I live less than 2 miles from a big AT&T complex and I get only three bars.
You have to live less than 2 miles from an ATT cell tower, not an ATT complex. Living next to an ATT complex will not help you in the least, unless you have a job interview there and your car breaks down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleZilla
My iPhone 4 works fine, with or without a case. The low return rate speaks for itself.
I had 3 different iphones from 3 different sources, ATT store, Apple store, Apple online sales. None of them could hold a call for more than 60 seconds without dropping the call, none of them could hold an internet connection for more than 60 seconds without timing out (3G, wifi worked fine). I actually live 0.72 miles from an ATT tower, and my phone would drop from full bars to no signal. Went back to my iphone 3GS and have full bars all the time.
The iphone 4 did work fine sometimes though, when I was holding it with boxing gloves on.
Low return rate? Not so sure about that, the ATT store where I returned one of my phones told me that people were returning them at a rate of DOUBLE of any phone they have ever sold. Im pretty sure Apple says there being returned at a rate of <0.000000000000001%. Don't believe everything you read.
Well, there is distortion of facts going on here, but not by me*. The dB issue has already been addressed ad nauseum and shown to be yet another red herring. I know your grasping at anything you can here, but, unfortunately, you are grasping at straws.
* For example, what words did I put in your mouth? None. I elided your response to emphasize the important parts (while a link to the original is available) and gave an accurate interpretation of your distinction (without a difference, to the user) between detuning and attenuation. You may wish to disavow your post, but, I have not in any way misinterpreted what you said, even if what you ended up saying isn't what you hoped to, and you were unable to make the point you wished to make. That failure is yours, not mine. The distortion of facts is yours as well.
You are the one grasping at anything to attempt to prove your flawed logic of how the iPhone reception issue is the same as all other phones. And you put words in my mouth by implying I said the end result of these issues are the same on all phones. Because the reception issue is much more profoundly affected on the iPhone 4, which has always been my point. I can't help you understand basic logic and concepts.
Is that all that matters? IIRC, the Ford Pinto also sold like hotcakes.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
Which is missing at least one, as of a couple months ago.
Fair enough. I haven't subscribed for several years, but not because they are dishonest, stupid or corrupt, which seems to be at the heart of most of the criticisms here.
I'm sorry. So you have one survey that claims only 93% are satisfied. I stand corrected. But in my case I haven't found an iP4 owner who isn't satisfied with the hardware. They aren't all satisfied with AT&T and tell me they would switch to Verizon if given that choice. But not one has complained about the antenna or the death grip.
I'm sorry. So you have one survey that claims only 93% are satisfied. I stand corrected. But in my case I haven't found an iP4 owner who isn't satisfied with the hardware. They aren't all satisfied with AT&T and tell me they would switch to Verizon if given that choice. But not one has complained about the antenna or the death grip.
Well for your small sample size, that's great. But this survey shows 24% are complaining about the antenna issue. I like my iPhone 4 too. But only with the free bumper.
Low return rate? Not so sure about that, the ATT store where I returned one of my phones told me that people were returning them at a rate of DOUBLE of any phone they have ever sold. Im pretty sure Apple says there being returned at a rate of <0.000000000000001%. Don't believe everything you read.
And in fact, we have no current information on return rates. So the OP could not possible be basing his conclusions on real facts. Alll we know is some sort of relative return rate from a while ago.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
What stats have you seen? Steve made some limited comments a long while ago - is that what you are resting on?
(And BTW, some people who own Apple products die too.)
Ski1 posted a link to some recent info which claims that your number is hogwash. Do you have a better source?
This antenna issue is interesting. I'm willing to bet that most of those mentioning antenna issues have never had one. Sometimes when an "issue" is publicized, people will mention it, even though they've never had it. It's just human nature.
This antenna issue is interesting. I'm willing to bet that most of those mentioning antenna issues have never had one. Sometimes when an "issue" is publicized, people will mention it, even though they've never had it. It's just human nature.
A more compelling distortion is the one Apple presented in their antennagate conference meeting. They stated less then 1% of their customers had the antenna issue since that was all that was reported to Applecare. But with all the publicity of the issue, I'm willing to bet a big percentage of the people having the issue never called Applecare. Because they knew Apple was already aware of the issue and were looking into it. The customer knew their particular phone was not unique. I never called Applecare. Because I knew calling Applecare would do no good. I also wonder what the average percentage of people actually report an issue they are experiencing to a manufacturer. I'm sure it's not 100%.
Comments
See, now making a prediction I’m fine with. I do disagree with your statement as I think the frame will still be the antenna for next year’s phones as the benefits far outweigh any cons.
However, if your argument is that Apple will “change” the antenna design in some way, I’ll point out that Apple has “changed" every iPhone with each new release. So what you stating is like wagering the sun will rise tomorrow. If you also argue that changing the antenna design in any way is proof that the iPhone 4 is flawed at the design level then I’ll point out that would mean that every iPhone has been flawed at the design level, as stated by such an argument. So what exactly are you wagering?
I'm wagering that if an iPhone comes to Verizon in 1st qtr 2011, it will look very similar to the current iPhone 4, have all the same features, except it will have a revised antenna design. Of course Apple won't admit they revised the antenna because of the flaw.
I'm wagering that if an iPhone comes to Verizon in 1st qtr 2011, it will look very similar to the current iPhone 4, have all same features, except it will have a revised antenna design. Of course Apple won't admit they revised the antenna because of the flaw.
So you?re still wagering that it will be using that ?design flaw? of having an antenna as the frame that you can can see and touch, but you?re saying that they will change the some aspect of the frame-antenna? Do I really need to point out that: A) there are physical chip differences that could easily cause the internals of the iPhone 4 to be different thus causing the way the internal structure of the iPhone 4 frame would look when taken apart, and
Again, what specific changes are you saying will happen because of this ?design flaw? from using the frame as the antenna?
So you’re still wagering that it will be using that “design flaw” of having an antenna as the frame that you can can see and touch, but you’re saying that they will change the some aspect of the frame-antenna? Do I really need to point out that: A) there are physical chip differences that could easily cause the internals of the iPhone 4 to be different thus causing the way the internal structure of the iPhone 4 frame would look when taken apart, and
Again, what specific changes are you saying will happen because of this “design flaw” from using the frame as the antenna?
Yes, I fully realize the points your brought up. And yes, I still believe they will keep an external antenna design. Because there are benefits to it, if done properly. I believe they will either have the gap in a better location, or some kind of material over it to prevent the detuning when touching the gap. And I believe the changes they make to the Verizon iPhone antenna (if one really appears) will be similar to the antenna changes they make for the GSM/UMTS iPhone 5.
You're totally off base. All it takes is one finger or a light touch in the wrong location on the iPhone 4 to knock its reception down a lot.
... the iPhone has an unique issue. ...Completely different then attenuation that of course all phones have to varying degrees. ...
These are some of the people I was referring to. I particularly like the part where ski1 emphasizes that the problems other phones suffer are technically called by another name, while essentially admitting that the effect a user will experience is the same. And, of course, Foo2 who always holds his phone with one finger. Thanks for demonstrating my point so effectively guys!
CR is doing their job and, in my opinion, doing it well.
No, they aren't, and they never really have, with any product, unless you refer to their job of paying their own salaries. CR is the publication for the uninformed consumer, and as long as the consumer depends on CR, they are likely to stay that way.
These are some of the people I was referring to. I particularly like the part where ski1 emphasizes that the problems other phones suffer are technically called by another name, while essentially admitting that the effect a user will experience is the same.
LOL, I see that anonymouse is distorting facts again and putting words in my mouth. The problem with his flawed logic is that most phones do not lose 20 db in reception when holding it in a natural position. The iPhone 4 does lose 20 db of reception when holding it in a natural position. I wonder why anonymouse likes distorting facts
LOL, I see that anonymouse is distorting facts again and putting words in my mouth. The problem with his flawed logic is that most phones do not lose 20 db in reception when holding it in a natural position. The iPhone 4 does lose 20 db of reception when holding it in a natural position. I wonder why anonymouse likes distorting facts
Well, there is distortion of facts going on here, but not by me*. The dB issue has already been addressed ad nauseum and shown to be yet another red herring. I know your grasping at anything you can here, but, unfortunately, you are grasping at straws.
* For example, what words did I put in your mouth? None. I elided your response to emphasize the important parts (while a link to the original is available) and gave an accurate interpretation of your distinction (without a difference, to the user) between detuning and attenuation. You may wish to disavow your post, but, I have not in any way misinterpreted what you said, even if what you ended up saying isn't what you hoped to, and you were unable to make the point you wished to make. That failure is yours, not mine. The distortion of facts is yours as well.
+1 here. I haven't experinced problems thus far, and I do believe if there is a problem, it's with AT&T's network. I live less than 2 miles from a big AT&T complex and I get only three bars.
You have to live less than 2 miles from an ATT cell tower, not an ATT complex. Living next to an ATT complex will not help you in the least, unless you have a job interview there and your car breaks down.
My iPhone 4 works fine, with or without a case. The low return rate speaks for itself.
I had 3 different iphones from 3 different sources, ATT store, Apple store, Apple online sales. None of them could hold a call for more than 60 seconds without dropping the call, none of them could hold an internet connection for more than 60 seconds without timing out (3G, wifi worked fine). I actually live 0.72 miles from an ATT tower, and my phone would drop from full bars to no signal. Went back to my iphone 3GS and have full bars all the time.
The iphone 4 did work fine sometimes though, when I was holding it with boxing gloves on.
Low return rate? Not so sure about that, the ATT store where I returned one of my phones told me that people were returning them at a rate of DOUBLE of any phone they have ever sold. Im pretty sure Apple says there being returned at a rate of <0.000000000000001%. Don't believe everything you read.
Well, there is distortion of facts going on here, but not by me*. The dB issue has already been addressed ad nauseum and shown to be yet another red herring. I know your grasping at anything you can here, but, unfortunately, you are grasping at straws.
* For example, what words did I put in your mouth? None. I elided your response to emphasize the important parts (while a link to the original is available) and gave an accurate interpretation of your distinction (without a difference, to the user) between detuning and attenuation. You may wish to disavow your post, but, I have not in any way misinterpreted what you said, even if what you ended up saying isn't what you hoped to, and you were unable to make the point you wished to make. That failure is yours, not mine. The distortion of facts is yours as well.
You are the one grasping at anything to attempt to prove your flawed logic of how the iPhone reception issue is the same as all other phones. And you put words in my mouth by implying I said the end result of these issues are the same on all phones. Because the reception issue is much more profoundly affected on the iPhone 4, which has always been my point. I can't help you understand basic logic and concepts.
Is that all that matters? IIRC, the Ford Pinto also sold like hotcakes.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
... I wonder who's paying them to act this way?
Their membership.
Which is missing at least one, as of a couple months ago.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
Try again:
http://internet2go.net/news/hardware...-achilles-heel
... I can't help you understand basic logic and concepts.
Apparently not since you seem not to understand them yourself.
Which is missing at least one, as of a couple months ago.
Fair enough. I haven't subscribed for several years, but not because they are dishonest, stupid or corrupt, which seems to be at the heart of most of the criticisms here.
Try again:
http://internet2go.net/news/hardware...-achilles-heel
I'm sorry. So you have one survey that claims only 93% are satisfied. I stand corrected. But in my case I haven't found an iP4 owner who isn't satisfied with the hardware. They aren't all satisfied with AT&T and tell me they would switch to Verizon if given that choice. But not one has complained about the antenna or the death grip.
I'm sorry. So you have one survey that claims only 93% are satisfied. I stand corrected. But in my case I haven't found an iP4 owner who isn't satisfied with the hardware. They aren't all satisfied with AT&T and tell me they would switch to Verizon if given that choice. But not one has complained about the antenna or the death grip.
Well for your small sample size, that's great. But this survey shows 24% are complaining about the antenna issue. I like my iPhone 4 too. But only with the free bumper.
Low return rate? Not so sure about that, the ATT store where I returned one of my phones told me that people were returning them at a rate of DOUBLE of any phone they have ever sold. Im pretty sure Apple says there being returned at a rate of <0.000000000000001%. Don't believe everything you read.
And in fact, we have no current information on return rates. So the OP could not possible be basing his conclusions on real facts. Alll we know is some sort of relative return rate from a while ago.
Don't try to bait me. From the stats I've seen 99+% of iP4 users are satisfied. And when you make comparisons, I suggest you don't compare apples (pun intended) and oranges. Some people who owned a Pinto died.
What stats have you seen? Steve made some limited comments a long while ago - is that what you are resting on?
(And BTW, some people who own Apple products die too.)
Ski1 posted a link to some recent info which claims that your number is hogwash. Do you have a better source?
Or did you just misoverestimate 99+%?
Apparently not since you seem not to understand them yourself.
I want both of you to stop.
Try again:
http://internet2go.net/news/hardware...-achilles-heel
This antenna issue is interesting. I'm willing to bet that most of those mentioning antenna issues have never had one. Sometimes when an "issue" is publicized, people will mention it, even though they've never had it. It's just human nature.
This antenna issue is interesting. I'm willing to bet that most of those mentioning antenna issues have never had one. Sometimes when an "issue" is publicized, people will mention it, even though they've never had it. It's just human nature.
A more compelling distortion is the one Apple presented in their antennagate conference meeting. They stated less then 1% of their customers had the antenna issue since that was all that was reported to Applecare. But with all the publicity of the issue, I'm willing to bet a big percentage of the people having the issue never called Applecare. Because they knew Apple was already aware of the issue and were looking into it. The customer knew their particular phone was not unique. I never called Applecare. Because I knew calling Applecare would do no good. I also wonder what the average percentage of people actually report an issue they are experiencing to a manufacturer. I'm sure it's not 100%.