Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included

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  • Reply 81 of 195
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    Remember processing power has nothing to do with it, considering where PC's were just 10 years ago.



    Processing power is evolving so processing power does have a say. If SW were constant then you’d be right but since OSes to apps to webpages become more complex to take advantage of the new HW the minimum requirements also increase.



    As an example, netbooks are a subset of notebooks because of the Atom CPU that made this market possible. They were much slower than Intel’s other offerings but they were x86 compatible and used very little power in comparison without incurring the high cost of ULV chips. The SFF CULV CPU in any MBA costs more than most netbooks. This is why the MBA is classified as an ultra-light notebook and not a netbook.
  • Reply 82 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You just implied that anyone that disgrees with your definition of ?PC? is an idiot yet they are the arrogant ones?







    Apple also marketing the Mac as not being a PC. They did this for a reason, just like they choose to make the iPad a satellite PC reliant on a primary PC. This was a a design choice, not an engineering limitation.



    You are right that it?s not an arbitrary inconvenience. While it?s certainly an inconvenience in many ways it serves a clear and decided purpose. I think you are missing Apple?s intention for marketing and selling the device. You can?t be a market leader by advertising how you just like everything else.



    The bottom line is all of these devices can be defined as ?personal' and ?computers', so saying others are stupid because they see the bigger picture outside of Windows-based pigeonhole simply isn?t fair on your part.



    One day I can see Apple lifting that tethering restriction. Will you call it a PC then or will the goal posts move to disallow it a computing device. If they allow initial activation and OTA updates on other iDevices will see them as personal computers?



    Why does the definition have to be so limited? Why can?t there be multiple definitions, like grocers putting tomatoes and mushrooms in with vegetables when they aren?t. Do biologists get upset that tomatoes aren?t with other fruits in a grocery store? Not the sane ones. Why can?t we have traditional PCs, handheld PCs, tablet PCs, pocketable PCs, etc?



    Quit your patronizing crap. I understood the marketing position Apple took with the iPad before they even unveiled it. Marketing is what I do for a living.



    The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.



    My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it.



    My main gripe is with people ignoring that glaring point, for some odd reason. It can't be utterly discounted, yet some people think it can. That is simply arrogance, and ignorance.



    Yet, I'd be happy to concede that the iPad should be included with PC numbers if the iPod touch is included as well. At least then it makes "sense"
  • Reply 83 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Or... buy from the App Store or plug in a DVD drive...



    I forgot about the DVD accessory, but the App Store clearly is a host computer.
  • Reply 84 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,



    1. Discussion



    2. Relevancy.



    Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?



    What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?



    You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.



    I guess I don't know what happens when it crashes/locks up in the sense that I haven't experienced that. After a hart reset, are you saying it commonly comes up re-bricked and that having another PC remedies this? How common are these crashes that set an ipad back to square 1?



    Which basic software updates do you mean specifically? The apps update through the app store, as I understand it, the only thing that need updating though another PC is OS updates, major or minor, which I dont believe are necessary for the device to function....ignoring the fact that I dont believe this is necessarily relevant to a broad PC category...
  • Reply 85 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?



    Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.



    But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.



    If that is the distinction that you choose to differentiate a computer from an accessory -- then without the simple reinstall drive, a MacBook Air would be an accessory device.







    http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html



    We all know the MBA is a computer.



    So, the MBA gets:

    -- initial OS from a reinstall drive

    -- its OS updates from the Internet

    -- its apps from the Internet via Mac App store

    -- its content from the Internet and/or the iTunes store

    -- its sync data from the Internet



    When you think about it logically, how difficult would be for Apple to include an iOS reinstall drive with the iPad?



    The infrastructure is already in place to do the same services for the iPad as for the MBA.



    The iPad would have the option to get those services directly (as does the MBA) or through iTunes running on a local Mac/PC/Home Server -- because the services can be provided faster, staged through iTunes, than accessed directly, on demand, from the cloud.



    So, we're talking the throw-away cost of an iOS reinstall drive as the differentiator.



    I'll see your bet -- and raise you an iPad recharger/power supply that includes an AirportExpress, iTunes Music store and App store account (based on device ID), a MobileMe account based on deviceID.



    Now, by your definition -- doesn't that make the iPad better qualified as a standalone device than the MBA.



    Just because Apple hasn't done it, yet -- doesn't mean they won't!
  • Reply 86 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Processing power is evolving so processing power does have a say. If SW were constant then you’d be right but since OSes to apps to webpages become more complex to take advantage of the new HW the minimum requirements also increase.



    As an example, netbooks are a subset of notebooks because of the Atom CPU that made this market possible. They were much slower than Intel’s other offerings but they were x86 compatible and used very little power in comparison without incurring the high cost of ULV chips. The SFF CULV CPU in any MBA costs more than most netbooks. This is why the MBA is classified as an ultra-light notebook and not a netbook.



    Right but capabilities to run software can create many, many categories device in and of itself if you want to go that route.



    From Smartphone, to tablet, to netbook, to laptop, to huge towers, these all have sets of current software that they can/cannot run....I just dont see a relevant place to place a line in the sand there.
  • Reply 87 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    I guess I don't know what happens when it crashes/locks up in the sense that I haven't experienced that. After a hart reset, are you saying it commonly comes up re-bricked and that having another PC remedies this? How common are these crashed that set an ipad back to square 1?



    Which basic software updates do you mean specifically? The apps update through the app store, as I understand it, the only thing that need updating though another PC is OS updates, major or minor, which I dont believe are necessary for the device to function....



    1. Restore. A PC can restore itself, using physical media to reload the OS. The iPad cannot. It needs a PC to do this for it.



    2. OS updates are never required. This simply follows the same major restriction as the above. Restoring and updating are the same here. They require a PC.
  • Reply 88 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    If that is the distinction that you choose to differentiate a computer from an accessory -- then without the simple reinstall drive, a MacBook Air would be an accessory device.







    http://www.apple.com/macbookair/specs.html



    We all know the MBA is a computer.



    So, the MBA gets:

    -- initial OS from a reinstall drive

    -- its OS updates from the Internet

    -- its apps from the Internet via Mac App store

    -- its content from the Internet and/or the iTunes store

    -- its sync data from the Internet



    When you think about it logically, how difficult would be for Apple to include an iOS reinstall drive with the iPad?



    The infrastructure is already in place to do the same services for the iPad as for the MBA.



    The iPad would have the option to get those services directly (as does the MBA) or through iTunes running on a local Mac/PC/Home Server -- because the services can be provided faster, staged through iTunes, than accessed directly, on demand, from the cloud.



    So, we're talking the throw-away cost of an iOS reinstall drive as the differentiator.



    I'll see your bet -- and raise you an iPad recharger/power supply that includes an AirportExpress, iTunes Music store and App store account (based on device ID), a MobileMe account based on deviceID.



    Now, by your definition -- doesn't that make the iPad better qualified as a standalone device than the MBA.



    Just because Apple hasn't done it, yet -- doesn't mean they won't!





    The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.
  • Reply 89 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.



    It just doesn't make sense to me in this way, it all seems to be trying to box in a PC as classic desktop computer, needing to fit into these parameters to be considered a personal computing device.



    To me its as has been stated:



    PC's

    Desktop

    Laptop

    Tablet

    Smart Phone



    Maybe others as well, but these are all PC's, you can divide them up further into any sections that seem relevant but it makes no sense to me to remove a smartphone or tablet from a Personal Computer group.



    Stand Alone PC? Sure call them that, I just dont see how it ceases to be a personal computer because its not stand alone.
  • Reply 90 of 195
    daharderdaharder Posts: 1,580member
    Here's one way to differentiate:



    Actual computers should have user accessible file systems and not require the use of 'actual' computers in order to be activated i.e. completely stand-alone computing devices.



    My iPad (or any iDevice) has nothing of the sort, so should not be considered a fully-functioning/independent computer, but merely a media-consumption device/computer peripheral (in its current incarnation).
  • Reply 91 of 195
    I would say, first of all, the "media tablet" category is entirely misrepresentative. The iPad is clearly not a "media tablet" based on any meaning of those words that approaches reality or common usage. And you can't base this categorization on "what most people use it for most of the time", even assuming most people use it strictly for "media consumption", which I doubt is the case. If you wish to apply that sort of categorization, then you have to classify most PCs as "media devices" since that's a good part of what most people are using those for as well, and you've muddled the definition of PC so much as to make it meaningless.



    The iPad certainly is a "personal computer" in the sense that it's a general purpose computing device designed primarily for personal use. An iPhone also fits this definition to some extent, but it simply makes sense to classify it in a separate "smartphone" category, which is clearly a distinct category of device. An iPod Touch also fits the above definition of "personal computer", but it's better classified as a "personal digital assistant", which is also a distinctly recognized device category.



    The question is, what makes the most sense in terms of categorization. I have no problem with a separate "tablet" category, but that should include all tablets -- iPads, Galaxy Tabs, Windows tablets, etc. -- based on form factor and user interaction methods, and not on some sketchy categorization based on the type of operating system it runs. From the user perspective, the whole, "needs to sometimes connect to a 'full computer'," is meaningless and irrelevant. Yes, it's some sort of characteristic of some devices, but it doesn't define what those devices do and how users interact with them. Simply because Apple has designed its mobile devices to require the user to connect to iTunes to activate doesn't create a separate device category on that basis.



    Either the category should be "tablets", including all tablets/slates/whatever, or it should be classified as a "personal computer". It really doesn't make any sense at all to classify Windows tablets and iPads/Android tablets in separate categories; they primarily serve the same functions for users. But, ultimately, the whole computing device category thing is becoming somewhat meaningless, or at least utterly confused. (As evidenced by this entire debate.) The "personal computer market" made sense as a category when most computing devices where desktops and laptops. "Smartphones" makes some sense as a device category based on special functionality, although, even that is becoming somewhat blurred: consider an iPod Touch running VOIP software. And the lines of demarcation and functionality will continue to become less and less distinct as time goes on.



    But, maybe the most important question, since these categories are discussed mainly by financial analysts, is what meaning do they have for investors. In that context, I'm not really sure how meaningful it is, unless you view "media tablets" as the future, and "personal computers" as the past, in which case, being the leading "personal computer" maker isn't necessarily a good thing.
  • Reply 92 of 195
    You gotta love the geeky mudslinging over classifications that only geeks care about, as if it's significant or important. Now hear this: it doesn't really matter to anyone but geeks. Apple just proved how little anybody else cares how these devices are classified, they care about whether they work. It's high time for even the geeks to take notice, since that's the real significance of the iPad.
  • Reply 93 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Why does the definition have to be so limited? Why can’t there be multiple definitions, like grocers putting tomatoes and mushrooms in with vegetables when they aren’t. Do biologists get upset that tomatoes aren’t with other fruits in a grocery store? Not the sane ones. Why can’t we have traditional PCs, handheld PCs, tablet PCs, pocketable PCs, etc?



    Ahh... and there you have it!



    The grocer puts fruits, berries, vegetables, legumes, fungi, etc. in the produce section -- and lets the users decide which best meet their needs.



    So, iPhones, iPads, Laptops, Desktops, Servers, Micros, Minis, Mainframes are all in the computer section.



    Some are just more personal than others.



    P.S. I don't think any device that cannot directly connect to the Internet (without cables, accessories, or tethering) to be a Personal Computer... Oh yeah... it must have a floppy drive too
  • Reply 94 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ascii View Post


    It's not arbitrary. To me, the fact of having to sync changes my perception of the device the whole time I'm using it. When I create a file I'm thinking about the next sync. When I see the battery go down I'm thinking about the next sync. When I create a bookmark I'm thinking about the next sync. Sync is not an isolated thing that happens when I plug in, it is always there, effecting how I use it.



    Sounds like you think about syncing a lot. But I don't know why you have that syncing feeling...



    I have synced my iPad once in maybe the last six months. That was to get this last iOS update. Once I had the initial songs and photos and movies I wanted on the iPad, I was good to go.



    You can recharge it without syncing it. You can get new apps, and updates for old apps without syncing it. You can get mail. You can sync your calendar, bookmarks and addresses without syncing it. You can share and move files over the air without syncing it.



    The ONLY thing requiring tethering to my Mac is an iOS update, and I find that a good thing: since it does a check, makes a backup, archives the apps bought through the iPad and vice versa, makes sure the download is smooth and uninterrupted, then installs and optimises. Rather refreshing, actually.



    How often does one update the OS on a netbook or Android tablet anyway? Probably never. I'd want to retire a crappy plastic netbook or tablet in about six months anyway. But, as I would never buy one for my personal computing, I guess Apple gets to count one more non-computer sale (829-dollar, 64GB, 3G model).



    Sent from McDonalds on my iPad.
  • Reply 95 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    It just doesn't make sense to me in this way, it all seems to be trying to box in a PC as classic desktop computer, needing to fit into these parameters to be considered a personal computing device.



    To me its as has been stated:



    PC's

    Desktop

    Laptop

    Tablet

    Smart Phone



    Maybe others as well, but these are all PC's, you can divide them up further into any sections that seem relevant but it makes no sense to me to remove a smartphone or tablet from a Personal Computer group.



    Stand Alone PC? Sure call them that, I just dont see how it ceases to be a personal computer because its not stand alone.



    Whatever. If we use your loose definition, then every product Apple sells with a power cord or battery could be called a "PC". Should that be that case? I dunno. If no iPod touch on the list, then why iPad? Spell that argument out in clear terms (it can't be done).



    For me, it comes down to this:



    I can buy a Mac, any Mac, and never need another PC of any kind. Ever.



    I can buy an iPad, and I still need a PC of some kind from day one.



    That is significant, and cannot be overlooked. PCs do not require other PCs in order to function.
  • Reply 96 of 195
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Calm yourself down. Why on earth you need to act like this such a big deal, I can't even begin to imagine.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Again, you really really need to calm down. Step outside, get a coffee, anything. Whatever is going on with you that you need to act like this over something you have no stake in, stop it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Wtf are you talking about? When have you ever purchased a PC (whatever that means) and been told at the store, "Make sure you already own one of these, so you can turn it on"



    ????



    Furthermore, it's not a definition, but it's certainly a BARRIER, to which you offer no response.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?



    Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.



    But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.



    I think you need to pick a tone and stick with it. it's pretty off-putting to be belittling people for being too invested in the topic and simultaneously kind of flipping out in the same thread.
  • Reply 97 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shehan2 View Post


    Bottom line for including them in the sales figures is this: If they didn't buy the iPad, what would they have bought? In most cases the answer is a netbook/budget laptop, so the iPad does belong in this category. In 5 years this won't even be an argument.



    Not true by any means.

    I bought an iPad as an "extra" device, not in place of a netbook/UL or other notebook.



    I have a friend (works for Best Buy) who says in his opinion most buyers are looking for it as an entertainment device (ebooks, video, games, etc..) or as a light weight alternative to an existing device.
  • Reply 98 of 195
    macrulezmacrulez Posts: 2,455member
    deleted
  • Reply 99 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post


    The ONLY thing requiring tethering to my Mac is an iOS update, and I find that a good thing: since it does a check, makes a backup, archives the apps bought through the iPad and vice versa, makes sure the download is smooth and uninterrupted, then installs and optimises. Rather refreshing, actually.



    See, this is an intentional distortion of reality. That's not the ONLY thing... That's not even ONE thing.



    Turning into an iPad instead of brick, requires tethering.

    Backing up any and all of your content/purchases/settings/OS, requires tethering.

    Resorting the software in the event of total system failure, requires tethering.
  • Reply 100 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


    Here's one way to differentiate:



    Actual computers should have user accessible file systems and not require the use of 'actual' computers in order to be activated i.e. completely stand-alone computing devices.



    My iPad (or any iDevice) has nothing of the sort, so should not be considered a fully-functioning/independent computer, but merely a media-consumption device/computer peripheral (in its current incarnation).



    Fully functioning is ENTIRELY in the eye of the beholder.
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