Apple becomes No. 3 global PC maker with 241% growth, if iPad is included

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  • Reply 101 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Whatever. If we use your loose definition, then every product Apple sells with a power cord or battery could be called a "PC". Should that be that case? I dunno. If no iPod touch on the list, then why iPad? Spell that argument out in clear terms (it can't be done).



    For me, it comes down to this:



    I can buy a Mac, any Mac, and never need another PC of any kind. Ever.



    I can buy an iPad, and I still need a PC of some kind from day one.



    That is significant, and cannot be overlooked. PCs do not require other PCs in order to function.



    No you need a stand alone pc.



    And touch not being on there was simply a mistake, as I've already stated previously in the thread I think it also is a personal computer.
  • Reply 102 of 195
    When you get down to it (and after reading a lot of these entries), the term in this case is a marketing term.



    From that perspective, the iPad is not.

    Some point the marketing definition will / may change.



    While I agree with those that talk about the iPad need to have an existing pc, what about the new Android / RIM devices coming out?

    They don't.



    Definition change?



  • Reply 103 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    I think you need to pick a tone and stick with it. it's pretty off-putting to be belittling people for being too invested in the topic and simultaneously kind of flipping out in the same thread.



    Flipping out? Hardly. Mind your own frigging business, or contribute to the conversation. Don't quote 4 posts just to tell me how to post. I'm well within control, thanks.
  • Reply 104 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    ...That is significant, and cannot be overlooked. PCs do not require other PCs in order to function.



    In terms of what the user can do with it, which is all the user cares about, it's simply not a relevant distinction.



    For example, suppose your "personal computer", a "traditional" desktop computer, is set to boot over the network, say over your home network. Does that mean it suddenly isn't a personal computer any longer because of the way it's configured? Suppose Apple, at Noon today, removed the requirement to connect an iPad to iTunes to activate it, and provided some sort of "restore stick" (as menitoned, I think, by Dick Applebaum) that would allow you to reload and update the OS. Would that suddenly turn the iPad, with no other changes, into a "personal computer"?



    When you look at the distinction in terms of what it really means, it turns out to be quite trivial.
  • Reply 105 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    No you need a stand alone pc.



    And touch not being on there was simply a mistake, as I've already stated previously in the thread I think it also is a personal computer.



    Call it whatever you want. I'm not comfortable giving the name PC to an iPod or iPad, any more than I would call an external hard drive a PC.
  • Reply 106 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rhonin View Post


    or as a light weight alternative to an existing device.



    Like a laptop or netbook?



    Right, that's what my parents did. Between their phone and ipads, they quite literally have no use for any other personal computing device - beyond the aforementioned tethering.



    But what does that say? When a smartphone and ipad have taken responsibility for nearly every single function that their previous personal computers took care of?
  • Reply 107 of 195
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,359member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Why couldn't Apple do this starting today -- why wait for iPad3 or even iPad2?





    The reinstall drive already exists,

    The AirPort Express already exists.

    MobileMe already exists.

    iTunes Music Store and App store already know everything you've bought from them.

    The North Carolina Data Center already exists.



    The Airport Express (package, as described) is the digital hub between all the services in the home to all the services in the cloud.



    My guess is the current requirement is going to influence PC users who get an iPad to replace PC with a Mac next time around simply because they fall in love with Apple quality. If no mothership required many won't even buy another 'real' computer. As I say just a guess since I have no idea whatsoever since as you say it could be done now.
  • Reply 108 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    In terms of what the user can do with it, which is all the user cares about, it's simply not a relevant distinction.



    For example, suppose your "personal computer", a "traditional" desktop computer, is set to boot over the network, say over your home network. Does that mean it suddenly isn't a personal computer any longer because of the way it's configured? Suppose Apple, at Noon today, removed the requirement to connect an iPad to iTunes to activate it, and provided some sort of "restore stick" (as menitoned, I think, by Dick Applebaum) that would allow you to reload and update the OS. Would that suddenly turn the iPad, with no other changes, into a "personal computer"?



    When you look at the distinction in terms of what it really means, it turns out to be quite trivial.



    It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.



    If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.
  • Reply 109 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


    In terms of what the user can do with it, which is all the user cares about, it's simply not a relevant distinction.




    This is what I believe as well.



    The PC isn't done changing either. This whole thing is just based on a perception of what the original PC was for years, it doesn't mean that it'swhat they need to be in order to be a PC for the rest of time.
  • Reply 110 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    It just doesn't make sense to me in this way, it all seems to be trying to box in a PC as classic desktop computer, needing to fit into these parameters to be considered a personal computing device.



    To me its as has been stated:



    PC's

    Desktop

    Laptop

    Tablet

    Smart Phone



    Maybe others as well, but these are all PC's, you can divide them up further into any sections that seem relevant but it makes no sense to me to remove a smartphone or tablet from a Personal Computer group.



    Stand Alone PC? Sure call them that, I just dont see how it ceases to be a personal computer because its not stand alone.



    I agree!



    This: "Is it a PC?" argument was being made, mid last year, that the iPad wasn't a PC because it didn't run a "Proper OS".



    That argument was crap then just as this argument is crap now.



    It's kind of interesting that the OS category showing the fastest growth is these "Improper OSes" -- iOS, Android, et al.





    Then there is the story about the harried mother standing in an ice cream store with a screaming infant -- "Bwaa, I want Vanilla!". The store was out of vanilla.



    The mother was able to pacify the unruly child by telling him that he could have "pink vanilla".
  • Reply 111 of 195
    wonderwonder Posts: 229member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    Still waiting for a decent argument from someone with a brain between their ears, to explain to me how its not significant that an iPad cannot be TURNED ON, or updated, without an actual PC?



    Some people are just unimaginably arrogant. Do you read before posting a response? It's very clear to me that the iPad is BETTER than most pcs that have ever existed, and many that exist now. This is not a debatable subject. It's frigging GOOD. Hell I'm using one right now.



    But if i didn't also own an iMac, which is a PC, it would still be sitting here with the connect to iTunes screen. This isn't some arbitrary inconvenience, it's the essence of a stand alone device vs. an accessory device CATEGORY.



    The definition of a PC does not include the fact that it needs to operate out of the box, that is just your definition.



    How a device is set up / activated or updated does not define what it is.

    What defines what it is, is what it does.



    When I buy a coffee maker it does not come with coffee I have to buy coffee to make the device useful and serve its purpose. Even without the coffee, it is still a coffee maker.



    I a PC that is fault, i.e. needs repair not a PC? It needs fixing, yet it is still a PC.



    Is the iPhone not an iPhone until it is activated? The device is still a phone, it might not work until it is activated, but it is still a phone.



    Is a PC with no OS or software installed on it not a PC, if I wipe my HD in my Mac does that make it not a PC.



    Just because an iPad needs to be activated before it is useful does not mean it is not a PC.



    It's not hard to understand.
  • Reply 112 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.



    If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.



    That's why they could be classified as a stand alone PC, which for some reason you just completely refuse to accept as a possible NON-TRIVAL DISTINCTION within the world of personal computers.
  • Reply 113 of 195
    wonderwonder Posts: 229member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solsun View Post


    Well basically, you've proved my point, that while the iPad is *technically* a computer it is a very different product than a traditional Desktop or laptop PC and should be counted as a separate product category for market share purposes.



    Then so should Netbooks and Tablet PC that run Windows.
  • Reply 114 of 195
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,157member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.



    So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC?



    The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.
  • Reply 115 of 195
    MacProMacPro Posts: 18,359member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaHarder View Post


    Here's one way to differentiate:



    Actual computers should have user accessible file systems and not require the use of 'actual' computers in order to be activated i.e. completely stand-alone computing devices.



    My iPad (or any iDevice) has nothing of the sort, so should not be considered a fully-functioning/independent computer, but merely a media-consumption device/computer peripheral (in its current incarnation).



    Well anyone can make up any criteria they like if it makes them happy. Many could equally be arguing in a few years when iPads dominate and PCs users want to feel inclusive that they can't join the club ... because they can't work by multi-gestures! Then Windows 8 will claim it can as it will be using the new Kinetics interface and Monkey Boy will be demoing painting in Photoshop while gyrating and sweating.



    This isn't scientific classification here folks it's nomenclature
  • Reply 116 of 195
    Just so every one knows your laptop or desktop was probably 'activated by another computer, it just happened at the factory before you got it. (the OS was probably not installed via the optical drive)
  • Reply 117 of 195
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jcoz View Post


    Like a laptop or netbook?



    Right, that's what my parents did. Between their phone and ipads, they quite literally have no use for any other personal computing device - beyond the aforementioned tethering.



    But what does that say? When a smartphone and ipad have taken responsibility for nearly every single function that their previous personal computers took care of?



    That is a good question.

    My mom tried my iPad (elderly) - liked her notebook better.

    Me - I replaced my netbook with a UL - tried the iPad and found the functionality far below what I needed.

    I treat the iPad as an accessory - like my kindle
  • Reply 118 of 195
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC now?



    The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that don't require activation and can get OTA OS updates. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.



    This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.



    How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?
  • Reply 119 of 195
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    The same posters still can’t see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.
  • Reply 120 of 195
    jcozjcoz Posts: 251member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    This is the crux of the discussion here. I say it has little to do with function. If it were only function that mattered, this wouldn't even be a discussion.



    How is it living in the 90s to think it's utterly ridiculous to call an iMac and an iPad the same category of "PC" when one depends on the other to function?



    Who puts them in the SAME category of PC? The statistics shown include all sorts of form factors and categories of PC's which all have different limitations of function.



    I put them under different categories of PC.....and I think alot of others would agree.
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