It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.
If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.
So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?
After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,
1. Discussion
2. Relevancy.
Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?
What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?
You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.
I still don't see why how a computer is setup or updates actually effects what the device actually does. What defines a device is what it does NOT how it is setup or updated.
Who puts them in the SAME category of PC? The statistics shown include all sorts of form factors and categories of PC's which all have different limitations of function.
I put them under different categories of PC.....and I think alot of others would agree.
Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.
Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.
Along with a SHITLOAD of other devices by many different manufacturers.
Quit your patronizing crap. I understood the marketing position Apple took with the iPad before they even unveiled it. Marketing is what I do for a living.
The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it.
My main gripe is with people ignoring that glaring point, for some odd reason. It can't be utterly discounted, yet some people think it can. That is simply arrogance, and ignorance.
Yet, I'd be happy to concede that the iPad should be included with PC numbers if the iPod touch is included as well. At least then it makes "sense"
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?
Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"
In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.
Right, that's what my parents did. Between their phone and ipads, they quite literally have no use for any other personal computing device - beyond the aforementioned tethering.
But what does that say? When a smartphone and ipad have taken responsibility for nearly every single function that their previous personal computers took care of?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
The same posters still can?t see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.
End of the day it is corporate marketing that is going to define the term "pc".
This is just another way of looking at the iPad to allow Apple to garner a foothold in the minds of future buyers.
The same posters still can?t see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.
Or better yet, to acknowledge that these classifications are meaningless.
The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.
Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.
It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.
Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
Oh get over it. Sometimes people disagree. I think you're wrong. You're going to have to live with it. And as far as the post you quoted, it was not directed at you as you well know, it was directed at the most arrogant and uppity member of this site who talks down to anyone and everyone.
Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.
It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.
Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?
This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.
It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.
If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.
But the device would be the same, how strange it magically changes.
The grocer puts fruits, berries, vegetables, legumes, fungi, etc. in the produce section -- and lets the users decide which best meet their needs.
So, iP{hones, iPads, Laptops, Desktops, Servers, Micros, Minis, Mainframes are all in the computer section.
Some are just more personal than others.
P.S. I don't think any device that cannot directly connect to the Internet (without cables, accessories, or tethering) to be a Personal Computer... Oh yeah... it must have a floppy drive too
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.
I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.
So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.
If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.
Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.
Well, what if the requirement in iOS is simply a switch set in the firmware? Then would you classify the iPad as a personal computer, if it is simply "set to require activation"?
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated. ...
I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.
So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC?
The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.
This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.
You still trying to use one fact about the setup / update of a device to define its class of device.
What defines a device is its use, NOT how it is setup / updated.
A car is still a car even with no petrol in it, locked in a garage, with no wheels.
Comments
Person B:"Get an iPad!"
Person A: "Cool!"
Buys iPad, takes it home.
"Connect to what? F*** me"
It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.
If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.
So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?
After all the crap you needed to vent, this is the first point you've made that approaches,
1. Discussion
2. Relevancy.
Good point. It can be activated in the store. What happens when it's not? Like every single online purchase? Gift?
What happens then when it crashes/locks up? Back to the Apple store?
You're definitely right that it never needs to be updated. Of course, that was no where remotely near my point. My point was how the software can be updated. As far I know, there exists no PC on the market that requires ANOTHER PC for basic software updates. That would seem to stand out as...significant.
I still don't see why how a computer is setup or updates actually effects what the device actually does. What defines a device is what it does NOT how it is setup or updated.
Who puts them in the SAME category of PC? The statistics shown include all sorts of form factors and categories of PC's which all have different limitations of function.
I put them under different categories of PC.....and I think alot of others would agree.
Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.
Of course, different categories is a great idea. But we need to see iPod touch in the overall PC sales numbers before I can take seriously the inclusion of iPad.
Along with a SHITLOAD of other devices by many different manufacturers.
I agree.
Quit your patronizing crap. I understood the marketing position Apple took with the iPad before they even unveiled it. Marketing is what I do for a living.
The discussion is whether broad category PC sales numbers should include iPads in with Macs. That's it. That's the entire discussion. Which you did not even address in your diatribe.
My answer is no. My questions revolve around the stark differences between an iPad and every other device considered a PC. Like..the fact..that you need..another PC..to actually...use it.
My main gripe is with people ignoring that glaring point, for some odd reason. It can't be utterly discounted, yet some people think it can. That is simply arrogance, and ignorance.
Yet, I'd be happy to concede that the iPad should be included with PC numbers if the iPod touch is included as well. At least then it makes "sense"
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
So, a desktop, set to boot over your home network from another computer on your home network is not a personal computer? It requires another computer to function, but, in terms of actual functionality, once booted, it may be no different at all than the computer it is booting from. If it isn't a personal computer, what category of computer is it, and why?
Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"
In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.
Like a laptop or netbook?
Right, that's what my parents did. Between their phone and ipads, they quite literally have no use for any other personal computing device - beyond the aforementioned tethering.
But what does that say? When a smartphone and ipad have taken responsibility for nearly every single function that their previous personal computers took care of?
The same posters still can?t see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.
End of the day it is corporate marketing that is going to define the term "pc".
This is just another way of looking at the iPad to allow Apple to garner a foothold in the minds of future buyers.
chuckle
Along with a SHITLOAD of other devices by many different manufacturers.
I agree.
I agree, it's the picking and choosing and excluding that pisses me off about the numbers.
The same posters still can?t see that a device can be defined in multiple ways depending on the source PoV. We need to have a Taxonomy of Consumer Electronics.
Or better yet, to acknowledge that these classifications are meaningless.
The more we spell it out, the more the discussion remains the same. When you don't need a PC to own an iPad, then iPad will graduate to becoming a PC itself. Feature list aside.
Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.
It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.
Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?
I must say this... If marketing is what you do for a living, you are demonstarting that you are not very good at your job -- you certainly have an unique way of promoting your ideas: close-minded; arrogant; arbitrary; argumentative...
Oh get over it. Sometimes people disagree. I think you're wrong. You're going to have to live with it. And as far as the post you quoted, it was not directed at you as you well know, it was directed at the most arrogant and uppity member of this site who talks down to anyone and everyone.
Why is your 'definition' the one that defines a PC?
I don't see any industry standards that define a PC as a device that does not need another device to set it up.
It purely an arbitrary fact that the iPad needs to be activated by a computer before you can use it.
It is still a computer before you actually turn it on or set it up, it does not magically transform into another device.
Is a PC not a PC if it does not have electricity?
You get a new PC home, it needs to be connected to the electricity to work, so its not a PC until it is powered up?
This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.
It's not trivial at all, because Apple is not about to do that at noon today, or within even the next few years.
If they did that, then yes I would say they are PCs because they don't require iTunes installed on a PC to function. It's not trivial at all, it's the difference between needing a f'ing Mac, or not needing one. That. Is. Not. A. Trivial. Distinction.
But the device would be the same, how strange it magically changes.
Ahh... and there you have it!
The grocer puts fruits, berries, vegetables, legumes, fungi, etc. in the produce section -- and lets the users decide which best meet their needs.
So, iP{hones, iPads, Laptops, Desktops, Servers, Micros, Minis, Mainframes are all in the computer section.
Some are just more personal than others.
P.S. I don't think any device that cannot directly connect to the Internet (without cables, accessories, or tethering) to be a Personal Computer... Oh yeah... it must have a floppy drive too
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated.
I have worked for IBM since I was 19, I remember when I mainframe system along with disk and tape devices would take up an entire building. Now in that same space we can house 20 times the devices. I remember the days when humans mounted taps rather then robots.
So to have a 1980's take on what a personal computers should or shouldn't be is very closed minded.
If someone uses even an iPhone or Android or any smartphone for that matter several hours a day its hard to say that isn't a personal computing devices for that person.
Is someone uses and iPad or MBP several hours a day or daily then that is simply the personal computer device that person has picked to suit their needs.
I am sure when this term was created it was becasue you could simply get the device in your house...lol.
Obviously you know that you said, "Set To Boot"
In no way shape or form is that bizarre configuration a requirement of any kind.
Well, what if the requirement in iOS is simply a switch set in the firmware? Then would you classify the iPad as a personal computer, if it is simply "set to require activation"?
Person A: "I need a PC"
Person B:"Get an iPad!"
Person A: "Cool!"
Buys iPad, takes it home.
"Connect to what? F*** me"
Person A: "I need a PC"
Person B: "Get a Mac"
Person A: "Cool"
Buys Mac, takes it home. Needs to update iTunes to use his new iPhone, but does not have Internet, or electricity as he lives in a tent.
"Connect to electricity and internet? F*** me"
Does the lack of something to activate it make the device not a PC?
I think the term PC or Personal Computers is outdated. Times have changed dramatically in regards to technology but we are still using the same outdated terms. Or I should say for mean their view of that term is outdated. ...
I may have to rethink my position on this matter, since I find myself largely in agreement with extremeskater.
So the iPad can be called a PC if Apple issues an iOS update this year that doesn't require it to be tethered to a computer for initial activation and updates? If this update was installed on the original iPad, is it suddenly a PC?
The point is.. the term PC is not what you think it means. It is not the configuration or capability of the device. It is the function. There are smartphones in the market that does not require activation and can get OTA OS updates without being tether to a PC. Personally, I think if someone limit their definition of a PC to the traditional desktop/laptop computers then they are still living in the 90s and need to move on.
+++ Wish I'd said that.
This is a good point, and it puts things into a bit of perspective. I doesn't change the fact that, unlike all windows Mac and Linux PCs, you need one PC to use another.
You still trying to use one fact about the setup / update of a device to define its class of device.
What defines a device is its use, NOT how it is setup / updated.
A car is still a car even with no petrol in it, locked in a garage, with no wheels.