Nokia ditches Symbian, embraces Microsoft Windows Phone for new handsets

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  • Reply 121 of 266
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Robodude View Post


    While I tend to agree with your assessment, it will likely be 'Windows Phone 7 for Nokia' rather than the version we're seeing now. Microsoft have effectively fragmented their own OS. They can also choose to provide less support for the multi-handset version.



    A formal agreement is better, since Microsoft can't really be trusted here. It seems that this is presented as Nokia buying time until they can compete, but WP7 is going to be their main solution going forward. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. If only someone better than Balmer was at the helm at Microsoft, I'd actually give this venture a chance.



    Yeah, agreed. There's some real potential in coupling WP7 (which at least looks promising) with Nokia's proven (if slightly eccentric) hardware chops. In a world of cookie cutter Android phones, MS-Nokia phones could be very distinctive.



    But that's only if Balmer can play ball forthrightly and not run some sort of Machiavellian scheme that's too clever by half that ends up just screwing everything up. Like trying to get access to Nokia's IP so they can bring phone manufacturing in-house, or at least giving Nokia that impression. It's worrisome, because Nokia is clearly the weak partner here and MS may feel like they can pretty much do with them as they will.
  • Reply 122 of 266
    Merge → semantics You know what I meant. It's much more than "merely" a license at this scale.



    As for the rest.. I'm inclined say the market, at least in the US, has hit saturation with Android and IOS having many already locked into a 2 year contract-- explaining( at least partially) the slow start with WP7. As you said, this "license" will open distribution channels, and offer worldwide mindshare where Nokia's name still counts. People are probably still wary of MSoft in the wireless market (rightfully so) I'm looking at you, Kin.. it's gonna take some time but it's coming.



    The rest of your conjecture is open to debate but I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a whole lot of foot dragging and with the new base of operations being in California, you can probably forget the Xenophobic/ nationalistic argument.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Man, if you're going to start out by belittling people who don't see this as a slam dunk as being deluded fanboys, you might want to tone down the blind faith.



    First of all, the two companies aren't "merging", Nokia is merely going to become a licensee of WP7, with some reciprocal technology thrown in to sweeten the deal.



    Secondly, WP7 hasn't done much in the market to date. Is that because of lackluster hardware, relatively few distribution channels, poor marketing, or does the OS not appeal to consumers (or at least not enough to sway them from the obvious choices)? Hard to say, but on the hardware front, at least, WP7 is running on the same kit as some pretty successful Android phones, so it doesn't seem likely that that's a huge problem.



    So Nokia brings distribution channels, name recognition, and at least competitive hardware to the table. And maps, I guess. But against that you have two extremely set-in-their-ways companies who are famously stubborn about their products, one of which has the added bonus of being extremely nationalistic not to say xenophobic.



    So if there is going to be any actual synergy, where elements of each company's strengths blend to make something greater than the parts, there's going to have to be an unprecedented level of cooperation. Given their relative status as going concerns, it looks like Nokia is going to have to do most of the compromising. Will they be able to manage that? Will there be mass defections of key players? Foot dragging by middle management that only shows up as mysteriously poor execution? Certainly likely enough to make any rosy talk of inevitable competitiveness pretty unpersuasive, and that's before we even get to the desirability of the product, which by no means is a given.



  • Reply 123 of 266
    This decision might have more to do with Microsoft and HP than Microsoft and Nokia. If you remember, the perceived wisdom (i.e. What worked for Apple) is that you have to control hardware software and store. Microsoft looked to HP to deliver the hardware partnership with the HP Slate - remember Steve Ballmer holding one up pre-iPad? What actually happened is that HP also had the same conclusion and decided to go with webOS instead. And now we see HP releasing the Pre3 and the TouchPad. Annoyed, Microsoft could threaten to remove the license to Windows from HP. HP's response? - to indicate that they might put webOS on their PCs... So HP clearly decided to control their own destiny and take their chances. A BIG call considering that they are struggling to get webOS traction, but it certainly is an easier path in some ways. Microsoft now need a hardware partner for their reasonably promising WP7 software (yes I have used it), considering most OEMs have hooked up with Android. Nokia or RIM were basically the choices. There MAY be an interim tablet solution around Meego until WP7 is upgraded for tablets - Windows Honeycomb, you might say. in the meantime, Nokia can push out more WP7 smart phones, which are needed by both partners to firm up their position in the mix prior to releasing a tablet. So the bets are: can Nokia plus Microsoft execute fast enough? Can HP establish webOS? Will RIM improve the coherence and quality of their platform and hardware quick enough? Or will this really be a twomhorse race between iOS and Android?
  • Reply 124 of 266
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post


    Merge → semantics You know what I meant. It's much more than "merely" a license at this scale.



    As for the rest.. I'm inclined say the market, at least in the US, has hit saturation with Android and IOS having many already locked into a 2 year contract-- explaining( at least partially) the slow start with WP7. As you said, this "license" will open distribution channels, and offer worldwide mindshare where Nokia's name still counts. People are probably still be wary of MSoft in the wireless market (rightfully so) I'm looking at you, Kin.. it's gonna take some time but it's coming.



    The rest of your conjecture is open to debate but I seriously doubt we'll be seeing a whole lot of foot dragging and with the new base of operations being in California, you can probably forget the Xenophobic/ nationalistic argument.



    Cooperation between extremely disparate corporate cultures is tricky. Moving the HQ or changing leadership is the least of it; you've got all those employees who might not be so sanguine. For instance, I see that just today over a thousand Nokia employees staged a walkout to protest the decision to use WP7. Now, a lot of those people are likely to lose their jobs anyway in the coming downsizing, but the entire reason Nokia is what it is and makes any kind of partner for MS is because of its people-- not some random portfolio of device designs.



    If those people aren't motivated to perform, what do you have? They could hire all new people at the all new California facility, but what's the point of that? Why even get Nokia involved, if you're going to be working with a new labor force? It's not like Nokia's management has particularly distinguished themselves as reliable stewards of the technology, as of late.
  • Reply 125 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    Cooperation between extremely disparate corporate cultures is tricky. Moving the HQ or changing leadership is the least of it; you've got all those employees who might not be so sanguine. For instance, I see that just today over a thousand Nokia employees staged a walkout to protest the decision to use WP7. Now, a lot of those people are likely to lose their jobs anyway in the coming downsizing, but the entire reason Nokia is what it is and makes any kind of partner for MS is because of its people-- not some random portfolio of device designs.



    If those people aren't motivated to perform, what do you have? They could hire all new people at the all new California facility, but what's the point of that? Why even get Nokia involved, if you're going to be working with a new labor force? It's not like Nokia's management has particularly distinguished themselves as reliable stewards of the technology, as of late.



    It's a restructuring of monumental proportions as far as nokia is concerned with many decisions surly made, and yet to be made with a great deal of consternation regarding the pride of Finland.



    Check this out http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/11/e...cept-revealed/
  • Reply 126 of 266
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Intel entered into MeeGo knowing that all the previous Maemo devices, and a tonne of other Nokia phones ran ARM, they weren't going to get their chips on the phones, they were going to get leverage off Nokias sales.



    I really doubt Intel saw it that way.



    Read Tomi Ahonen's rant from the previous link. Like me, he sees Intel as the biggest looser here. Given that he was the former president of Nokia when Intel and Nokia combined Maemo and Moblin to form MeeGo, I think he has a good understanding of what the plan for MeeGo was. This was an opportunity for Intel to get its x86 chips into a smartphone. It may not have been planned until Atoms are fabbed at the 32nm or 22nm process node but I think that was Intel's intent and desire when they partner with Nokia to develop Meego. That'll never happen now.



    Perhaps Nokia will release a tablet with MeeGo that runs on an Atom cpu but I'm not holding my breadth.
  • Reply 127 of 266
    This might present Apple with a chance to pick up some really good hardware engineers. Whatever Nokia's problems, they do have some serious talent in hardware.
  • Reply 128 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by saarek View Post


    So one declining giant embracing another.....



    Haha! Oh, you aren't talking about HP and Palm.
  • Reply 129 of 266
    Quote:

    "Ecosystems thrive when fueled by speed, innovation and scale. The partnership announced today provides incredible scale, vast expertise in hardware and software innovation and a proven ability to execute." (stated Ballmer)



    Breaking this down, bullet point by bullet point:
    1. What ecosystem does either MS or Nokia bring to the game?

    2. With MS this late to the game, how can he brag about any kind of speed?

    3. And to exactly what innovation outside Apple's does Ballmer or Elop bring to this partnership?

    4. Regarding scale, I guess Fatso Steve tips the scales a bit more than lean, mean Jobs.

    5. Incredible scale: What economies of scale can Nokia provide that Apple hasn't already closed off?

    6. Vast expertise in what? Waiting to see what Apple does and reverse-engineer it? MS hasn't innovated since Gates planed a cross between a spruce and birch tree in front of his mansion.

    7. Software innovation - what kind of crack is Ballmer smoking if he thinks that either firm brings innovative software to this partnership?

    8. Proven ability to execute what? Top level managers? Done on both sides. Marketing plans? Right, just like the Zune and Kin. Creating "must have" products that don't rely on kickbacks from IT managers? What was the last MS (or Nokia) product that felt like it was an extension of your own brain and body?

    I guess Ballmer had to say something zingy but that sentence was an absolute fail in so many ways.
  • Reply 130 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Boogerman2000 View Post


    It's a restructuring of monumental proportions as far as nokia is concerned with many decisions surly made



    And here I thought Ballmer was the surly one!
  • Reply 131 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MJ Web View Post


    Yeskia is perfect name for Steve Bummer's new product



    now that's funny!
  • Reply 132 of 266
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ecphorizer View Post


    And here I thought Ballmer was the surly one!



    .. Have to leave it..



  • Reply 133 of 266
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,472member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    Intel entered into MeeGo knowing that all the previous Maemo devices, and a tonne of other Nokia phones ran ARM, they weren't going to get their chips on the phones, they were going to get leverage off Nokias sales.



    While it's true that Intel knew about all the older phones, that isn't the way it was supposed to be working out in the future. This was a plan for both companies. Nokia would supposedly be getting a better OS, and Intel was going to sell its chips in the smartphone market.



    http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...artphone_plans



    That WAS the idea. Now, it's smashed. We MAY be seeing a MeeGo phone at some point, perhaps to fulfill a contractual obligation. But it's dead otherwise.



    Symbian, as far as it goes, is dead as well. Nokia is in the middle of a major contraction of smartphone sales because of this deal. Before, at least, their smartphone sales were going up at a decent clip, even though it was much below the smartphone industry's. This will drop that growth to a shrinkage. It's too bad really, but that's what's going to happen. We can see what the street thinks of this deal- terrible! About an 8% stock price drop Thursday, and about 16% Friday.
  • Reply 134 of 266
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,385member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I really doubt Intel saw it that way.



    If Intel is ignorant to the fact that they don't have a CPU available for a tablet or phone then this announcment is the least of their worries



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Read Tomi Ahonen's rant from the previous link. Like me, he sees Intel as the biggest looser here. Given that he was the former president of Nokia when Intel and Nokia combined Maemo and Moblin to form MeeGo, I think he has a good understanding of what the plan for MeeGo was. This was an opportunity for Intel to get its x86 chips into a smartphone. It may not have been planned until Atoms are fabbed at the 32nm or 22nm process node but I think that was Intel's intent and desire when they partner with Nokia to develop Meego. That'll never happen now.



    If he was a former president when they merged the project how would he have any more insight than most people writing comments here?



    And I don't think the current Atoms have any place inside a tablet.



    I agree with Tomi, I think this was the wrong thing to do, Nokia has made a backward step with this annoucement.
  • Reply 135 of 266
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,472member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I really doubt Intel saw it that way.



    Read Tomi Ahonen's rant from the previous link. Like me, he sees Intel as the biggest looser here. Given that he was the former president of Nokia when Intel and Nokia combined Maemo and Moblin to form MeeGo, I think he has a good understanding of what the plan for MeeGo was. This was an opportunity for Intel to get its x86 chips into a smartphone. It may not have been planned until Atoms are fabbed at the 32nm or 22nm process node but I think that was Intel's intent and desire when they partner with Nokia to develop Meego. That'll never happen now.



    Perhaps Nokia will release a tablet with MeeGo that runs on an Atom cpu but I'm not holding my breadth.



    In reading what Ahonen wrote, I'm not feeling that even with his extensive experience in the field that he really understands what's going on these days.



    While I see Intel, in the short run, at least, as a loser here, the obvious major loser is Nokia, no matter how it's looked at. Ahonen has his reasons for not wanting to think, or admit that Nokia is seriously damaged by this deal.



    We're going to see Nokia's marketshare drop to 20% in smart phones, possibly 15%, or even lower.



    I think Intel will do better than we think over time.



    But Nokia now has no serious tablet plan. It's been pretty much agreed upon in the industry that tablets are tied to smartphones. Apple has that plan. HP has that plan. Google, to a lessor degree, has that plan, even RIM does. But Microsoft doesn't. And now that means that Nokia doesn't either.
  • Reply 136 of 266
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,385member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    That WAS the idea. Now, it's smashed. We MAY be seeing a MeeGo phone at some point, perhaps to fulfill a contractual obligation. But it's dead otherwise.



    That might have been Intels idea, but how where they going in this area? nowhere very fast.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Symbian, as far as it goes, is dead as well. Nokia is in the middle of a major contraction of smartphone sales because of this deal. Before, at least, their smartphone sales were going up at a decent clip, even though it was much below the smartphone industry's. This will drop that growth to a shrinkage. It's too bad really, but that's what's going to happen. We can see what the street thinks of this deal- terrible! About an 8% stock price drop Thursday, and about 16% Friday.



    Well this is the deal the American shareholders wanted, then changed their minds when they got it.



    This was the wrong decision for Nokia.
  • Reply 137 of 266
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    If he was a former president when they merged the project how would he have any more insight than most people writing comments here?

    ....t.



    Because he was involved with the decision. Are you really that obtuse?



    As to whether Atom belongs in a smartphone, I agree that it's not a good choice at the moment. But who knows when they're fabbed at the 32 or 28 nm process node? But now Intel needs a mobile OS platform to champion their mobile chips.
  • Reply 138 of 266
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,472member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jfanning View Post


    That might have been Intels idea, but how where they going in this area? nowhere very fast.



    You can be sure it wasn't just Intel's idea, but a serious negotiation between themselves and Nokia. The fact that it won't now be working out is something else. Too bad, because if MeeGo had a good UI, it could have done fairly well, at least.



    Quote:

    Well this is the deal the American shareholders wanted, then changed their minds when they got it.



    This was the wrong decision for Nokia.



    Not really, a deal LIKE this was what all shareholders wanted, just not this deal. I don't agree with all of the reasoning behind it. I believe that Nokia could have managed some Android phones. At the same time, they could have reassured Symbian users that they wouldn't be left hanging at the edge of a cliff, by keeping Symbian in lower cost models for some years, at least.



    I don't agree that being an Android OEM is worse than being a WP7 OEM. At least with Android, they could have tweaked the way they needed to be independent.



    But, unless somehow the other WP7 OEM's get fed up with this deal, and leave, Nokia isn't much better off than any of the others. And sales WILL fall dramatically. They're also being killed at the low end by all of these local Chinese manufacturers. Their sales actually contracted last year because of this.



    I think this deal will suck most of the value out of the company, unless investors do some serious thinking this weekend and change their minds.
  • Reply 139 of 266
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    In reading what Ahonen wrote, I'm not feeling that even with his extensive experience in the field that he really understands what's going on these days.



    While I see Intel, in the short run, at least, as a loser here, the obvious major loser is Nokia, no matter how it's looked at. Ahonen has his reasons for not wanting to think, or admit that Nokia is seriously damaged by this deal.



    We're going to see Nokia's marketshare drop to 20% in smart phones, possibly 15%, or even lower.



    I think Intel will do better than we think over time.



    But Nokia now has no serious tablet plan. It's been pretty much agreed upon in the industry that tablets are tied to smartphones. Apple has that plan. HP has that plan. Google, to a lessor degree, has that plan, even RIM does. But Microsoft doesn't. And now that means that Nokia doesn't either.





    I agree that he did seem a bit out of touch in that rant and it's hard to see an outcome where Nokia come out ahead. How did they do this deal with MS without an exclusive agreement to develop Win7 phones?



    But it's pretty bad news for Intel as well and I really wonder what this means for the future of Atom. Its future in smart phones and tablets is uncertain and they face some stiff competition in net books from AMDs brazos chips. Oh, and the margins on Atoms are supposedly pretty slim.
  • Reply 140 of 266
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,472member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    I agree that he did seem a bit out of touch in that rant and it's hard to see an outcome where Nokia come out ahead. How did they do this deal with MS without an exclusive agreement to develop Win7 phones?



    But it's pretty bad news for Intel as well and I really wonder what this means for the future of Atom. Its future in smart phones and tablets is uncertain and they face some stiff competition in net books from AMDs brazos chips. Oh, and the margins on Atoms are supposedly pretty slim.



    To go backwards, I'd say that, as usual, they have little to worry about from AMD. AMD has a big mouth, but little to back it up. AMD always promises great new products, but when, and if they arrive, they're almost never what was promised.



    As Atom gets better, and arrives on a smaller fab, they will be competitive. Intel has time. There's talk of having Android available on Atom, and I've heard of some devices that have been seen with it. It's even possible that at some point in time, even Apple will find a use for it. Margins are always slimmest on the least expensive products.



    I don't see how they could have come up with an exclusive deal. No doubt MS has multi-year deals with others. But, if those others see some exclusive features of their deal with Nokia, it might make them back out. the maps could be an area of contention. How would HTc and Samsung like to see Nokia maps on THEIR WP7 phones. Every time you go to the maps, you'd see "Nokia" on them. Some people would think that if Nokia makes the maps, and they like them, maybe they should try one of their phones next time.
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