Apple knew what they had done was a serious mistake. It's why they were so quick to fix it and why the fix completely removed the file from the computer.
That this data was stored on your computer is not a serious mistake. Not even close. EVERY program that runs on your computer saves data to the computer. What it is, is a minor oversight. An oversight that has harmed no one and is being remedied in the next release of iOS which will no longer save the info on your computer. Big whoop.
This oversight would have been fixed even without all the hoopla. Nothing nefarious is going on here. Personal data was saved to your computer. Just like every other application under the sun. The same computer you should have protected with security passwords and keep in a safe place (maybe even locked up depending on where you use it) I might add.
The only 100% protection here is not to use a computer at all because after all, it may be stolen and someone may gain access to your data.
And again. You've been robbed or someone has gained access to ALL the personal information in your computer and what you're most worried about is data that divulges the round-about locations you've visited?
Ok buddy, tell me how you will get access to my contact info, cause I am not using it as screensaver, I am behind firewalls and lil snitch, the computer password protected and have a dog in my apartment.
My iPhone is locked almost all the time cause I use my bluetooth headset and the only 2 things i can connect to it is the headset and my main iMac.
Have no fishy app installed, my phone is not jailbroken.
Please tell me... \
I think that's a very good question. It was raised in the Congressional hearings and the answer is that privacy needs to be built in from the start.
It's all very good and well that you've taken these precautions (you could also encrypt your drive). But these hearings aren't about you. They're about privacy policy in general. So let's contrast Apple's current policy with Google's current policy:
● Apple states on paper that developers cannot access a user's contact data. If Apple discovers a developer doing that, the require the developer to remove such functionality within 24 hours or have their app removed from the store. No other action is taken.
● Google programmatically prohibits apps from accessing contact data without the user's permission.
In this particular case, Google has privacy built in from the start, whereas Apple relies on random checks or an app being reported to the company for bad behavior.
At the end of the day, neither of these policies are perfect. Neither does everything that can (and should) be done to protect the user. But Google's policy is more robust. I'll hazard a guess that Google's policy is probably the direction the new regulations will go.
Note that I'm not trying to generalize this particular example to all of Google and Apple. Google has issues of its own regarding privacy.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal. But because Apple saves a file of general location to your computer, they get taken to the DoJ.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal. But because Apple saves a file of general location to your computer, they get taken to the DoJ.
Something's fishy.
The Sony issue is a big deal and was also discussed at the hearings.
It turns out you cannot sue Sony for the hack, even if it shown they did not take proper precautions to protect your personal information. This is probably another issue that will be addressed with new legislation.
I'd like to give Apple the benefit of the doubt and say their heart is in the right place. It's just getting harder and harder to do that. The revelation at the Congressional hearings that iOS allows any app developer to pull _all_ your contact information without your permission or even your knowledge was pretty surprising to me, for example.
Unfortunately for Apple, that file was shown to be able to track one of the folks who testified to Congress to within 20 feet of his actual location as determined by GPS. Also, Skyhook, the originator of the technique used to create that file, says it was designed to track individuals to within 200 - 1000 meter accuracy, not the 100s of miles claimed by Steve Jobs in a press release. http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/
The lies are wearing thin and it's time for Apple to provide a complete end-too-end privacy policy that isn't packed with smoke and mirrors. They can do it themselves, or they can have the government do it for them.
Seriously, you need to stop jumping to erroneous conclusions based on incorrect assumptions. For example assuming that Skyhook knows precisely what the file config is is silly - they don't know what if any modifications that Apple has made to the original config. And if you had read carefully Jobs said that SOME of the locations were up to 100s of miles away. Again, you are rabidly and deliberately misunderstanding the use of the file by Apple to support your paranoia. The testimony didn't report whether that person was within 20 feet of a Wifi unit, unlikely that it would have been a cell tower (without noticing). This is an epic fail commentary - demonstrating a serious lack of technological understanding and a complete failure to read for actual comprehension.
So probably best for you to go back to using a simple feature phone to ease your self-generated discomfort over a non-issue. But don't use your credit card at any local merchants, don't register for driver's licenses, don't use Paypass on the tollways, and don't write any checks. Don't list on Facebook. In fact don't use your browser, stay of the internet altogether really. You are hemorrhaging personal information like a hemophiliac in a slasher movie.
Seriously, you need to stop jumping to erroneous conclusions based on incorrect assumptions. For example assuming that Skyhook knows precisely what the file config is is silly - they don't know what if any modifications that Apple has made to the original config. And if you had read carefully Jobs said that SOME of the locations were up to 100s of miles away. Again, you are rabidly and deliberately misunderstanding the use of the file by Apple to support your paranoia. The testimony didn't report whether that person was within 20 feet of a Wifi unit, unlikely that it would have been a cell tower (without noticing). This is an epic fail commentary - demonstrating a serious lack of technological understanding and a complete failure to read for actual comprehension.
Perhaps you should send this to Senator Franken. No doubt he would prefer your hand waving to the expert testimony and the documented and demonstrated capabilities of the device that he was given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fecklesstechguy
So probably best for you to go back to using a simple feature phone to ease your self-generated discomfort over a non-issue. But don't use your credit card at any local merchants, don't register for driver's licenses, don't use Paypass on the tollways, and don't write any checks. Don't list on Facebook. In fact don't use your browser, stay of the internet altogether really. You are hemorrhaging personal information like a hemophiliac in a slasher movie.
Sigh, late as it is, I can't help but write one last response.
And this doesn't bother you? It should.
Why are people so addicted to plastic? It's really easy to carry cash around (for most basic purchases, I'm not talking about a computer or trip to the Bahamas), our society has done it for the last 100 years. Now people whip out their cards to buy a stinkin' pack of gum, it's pitiful.
The "savings" games are all bullshit, because the banks charge the merchants for each and every purchase, so we're all paying for it via higher prices, but then getting some portion of it back again, but if and only if you play their games. Our country is full of sheep. I need to stop, I should not be typing at this hour.
Within reason, no, it doesn't bother me.
For example if my "dossier" indicates that I prefer to vacation in St. Maarten, I might magically see ads for good deals on St. Maarten vacations. I'm actually not opposed to that. Targeted advertising does have it's benefits. I'd rather see ads for products and services that I'm likely to actually need or use, rather than ads for make-up and feminine hygiene products.
To my knowledge, using my debit card to buy groceries has not harmed me in any way. Sure, they know that I prefer Corn Flakes to Apple Jacks and Monterey Jack cheese to marble, but so what? I earn about $300 a year in free groceries via my debit card and MasterCard.
As long as things don't go too far, I can live with them knowing that my favourite snack is a cold Bacardi Limon with Coke and some Cool Ranch Doritos... And now you all know too. Oh my.
Unfortunately for Apple, that file was shown to be able to track one of the folks who testified to Congress to within 20 feet of his actual location as determined by GPS.
Which simply means that that person spends a lot of time in an area with a lot of wifi hotspots. And possible very close to a cell tower.
it's like that for me at home. My apartment is on top of a book store with free wifi, I have my wifi and that of pretty much every other of the 49 units in the building, plus the free wifi in our business center. There's a Starbucks and a Coffee Bean across the street and a public library a block over on the other side.
Am I shocked that my 'home' area is very close to my real home. Hells no.
Now get out on the road and there's a ton of spots I've never been anywhere near. That come from the crowd.
Am I worried no. THe government can get my exact GPS from ATT thanks to their laws and this file is only on my iphone, ipad and computer. You get any of those three and you have access to much more damaging stuff than knowing what wifi spots my stuff has likely been hear and when it might have happened.
As for the whole UDID issue, where's the database that shows who has what id. that's the piece I haven't seen anyone detail. They always seem to talk about 'might' and 'maybe'. And generally based on you giving up personal details during a sign up process.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj
Apple knew what they had done was a serious mistake. It's why they were so quick to fix it and why the fix completely removed the file from the computer.
I doubt that Apple views this as even a minor mistake, outside of the length of the file which is a bit extreme and probably was a bug. They are "fixing" it because sometimes it just isn't worth fighting a case. When location services based functions end up sucking it will be the fault of the users for demanding the file be removed or adjusted, and Apple will use that line if needed. That will be easier than trying to explain the tech to the 99.9% of the user population that aren't techies. Just like it was easier to give out some free cases as a placebo for an antenna that wasn't broken.
But at no time is Apple going to say "We made a mistake" because they don't view it that way. And even if the Senate says they did, Apple will never agree with that assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plokoonpma
Just to add on the IP matter.
Judge Harold Baker of the Central District Court of Illinois ruled this recently. The decision handed down from his bench states that an Internet Protocol (IP) address does not necessarily correlate to a particular individual, and that it cannot be treated as such during legal investigations be they civil or criminal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by magicj
Interesting, because at the Congressional hearings with Apple and Google the Department of Justice testified to Congress that it can be used for that purpose, as did a privacy expert.
These two statements are not 100% contradictory. Baker is merely pointing out that there is a flaw in the system so one must be careful about using the IP address is the only source of identity .
The Flaw? Easy. Wifi makes it easy to 'ghost' who you are simply by changing networks.
Example. I mentioned I live in an apartment building. Well at least 4 of the networks in my building have no password. Plus I have those two very open networks across the street. Lets say I want to torrent a movie but I know that the studios jump on torrents to pull IPs to have them cut off by their ISPs. So I"m not going to use my own network. I'll switch to one of those unprotected ones. Now my laptop is showing as the IP linked to the DSL/Cable Modem on that wifi router. Not mine. So my neighbor is the one that will be screwed. Or if they trace it back to Starbucks and guess it must be someone local, there's a good 10 apartments on my side of the building and two other buildings within a reasonable distance it could also be. They would have to find some additional way to figure out which of us it was.
With a cell phone etc it is worse cause you could be changing wifi nets left and right and thus showing up at different IP addresses.
That's the kind of thing that Baker is talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yensid98
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal. But because Apple saves a file of general location to your computer, they get taken to the DoJ.
ANd lets not forget about the media. The papers, blogs etc will drag this out as long as they can because they know the math. For every one hit on an ad laden site that some other topic gets, there will be easily 1000 for anything about Apple. That's money in the bank
Perhaps you should send this to Senator Franken. No doubt he would prefer your hand waving to the expert testimony and the documented and demonstrated capabilities of the device that he was given.
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
magicj must be the one suing Apple
It is amazing our country has so many issues like high debt, high unemployment, decreasing education level, high pension cost, etc etc and they (government) elected to get on this issue? WTF wrong with our country??
I just figured out that the phone company has published a book with my name, address and phone number. Anyone can have access to one of these, and come to my house, ring my doorbell to know if I'm home. If I'm not... they can come into my house, go to my computer and get the locations db file. Oh wait... it's no longer stored there! Guess they will have to settle for my stereo, tv and computer without knowing where I have been in the last year.
I just figured out that the phone company has published a book with my name, address and phone number. Anyone can have access to one of these, and come to my house, ring my doorbell to know if I'm home. If I'm not... they can come into my house, go to my computer and get the locations db file. Oh wait... it's no longer stored there! Guess they will have to settle for my stereo, tv and computer without knowing where I have been in the last year.
QFT
All this freak out about a file stored on our personal devices. Devices which we obviously have security control over. Password locks, backups, encryption, etc.
Better not save any data on your computer because someone may get it! OMG!
I think that's a very good question. It was raised in the Congressional hearings and the answer is that privacy needs to be built in from the start.
It's all very good and well that you've taken these precautions (you could also encrypt your drive). But these hearings aren't about you. They're about privacy policy in general. So let's contrast Apple's current policy with Google's current policy:
● Apple states on paper that developers cannot access a user's contact data. If Apple discovers a developer doing that, the require the developer to remove such functionality within 24 hours or have their app removed from the store. No other action is taken.
● Google programmatically prohibits apps from accessing contact data without the user's permission.
In this particular case, Google has privacy built in from the start, whereas Apple relies on random checks or an app being reported to the company for bad behavior.
At the end of the day, neither of these policies are perfect. Neither does everything that can (and should) be done to protect the user. But Google's policy is more robust. I'll hazard a guess that Google's policy is probably the direction the new regulations will go.
Note that I'm not trying to generalize this particular example to all of Google and Apple. Google has issues of its own regarding privacy.
Really?? You are pro google?? what a joke. SO you are saying that that very single feature makes google safer??? Now i finally get all your are about. I think is ok if u like google but whatever you say regarding this theme will be in vane since u lack of knowledge. Seriously is very silly of you post all that garbage and I know you will reply, post the link of the video. I saw it live and what Bud said is not even close to what you are saying. I just wonder if you come from denmark.
That this data was stored on your computer is not a serious mistake. Not even close. EVERY program that runs on your computer saves data to the computer. What it is, is a minor oversight. An oversight that has harmed no one and is being remedied in the next release of iOS which will no longer save the info on your computer. Big whoop.
This oversight would have been fixed even without all the hoopla. Nothing nefarious is going on here. Personal data was saved to your computer. Just like every other application under the sun. The same computer you should have protected with security passwords and keep in a safe place (maybe even locked up depending on where you use it) I might add.
The only 100% protection here is not to use a computer at all because after all, it may be stolen and someone may gain access to your data.
And again. You've been robbed or someone has gained access to ALL the personal information in your computer and what you're most worried about is data that divulges the round-about locations you've visited?
Priorities. They're important.
Exactly.
If someone's got access to your computer's information, this tracking information would be the last thing I would be worried about.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal.
Who has said thats not a big deal? I know several PS3 owners who think it is a MAJOR deal.
Who has said thats not a big deal? I know several PS3 owners who think it is a MAJOR deal.
Well you don't see it being reported on daily by major news sites (CNN, NYT, etc) and Sony hasn't been called into the DoJ or any other governmental agency. It seems like in this case of STOLEN information, the only people who care about it are gamers and Sony haters. I find it suspect that those crying foul on Apple aren't paying at least as much attention when personal information has actually been stolen from a major multi-billion dollar company. Doesn't that deserve more front page notice than a file stored locally?
Again, Apple is what's drawing the attention here, not the "threat."
No that's not "just what he's pointing out". If he would have said "Apple should have been more careful with the location cache" and left it there, I would honestly agree with him. Instead, this topic has now been stuffed with pages full of zany accusations that Apple rapes your privacy, that it's damn right they are prosecuted for it, that all kinds of new privacy laws are needed, that people should be really worried about bad Apple and the way they think about your privacy, and so on.
Your accusations against him just aren't true. You've exaggerated out of all proportion. He has a right to his opinion without being labelled a spreader of 'FUD' etc. There are too many people on here who won't hear even a whisper of malcontent against Apple and it's plain irrational.
I don't agree with a lot of what he says either, but I haven't read anything in his comments to warrant the dismissal of his contribution as troublemaking. Several of the remarks made in reply to his simply told him he didn't know what he was talking about, or just outright insulted him, without countering any of his points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range
It's spelled 'labeling', not 'labelling'. Did it ever occur to you not everyone here is a native english speaker?
You know what time it is when the grammar nazi's kick in, time to get out of this topic...
You should check your facts before you lay on the smugness. Labelling is the correct British spelling. I am British. Expecting people entering a rational debate to make their points coherently has been a mainstay of the written word for hundreds of years for a reason; you sound like a damned fool when you throw mud at someone in broken English, a little like you sound a damned fool when you correct someone's English wrongly.
For example, I get points towards groceries every time I use my MasterCard. They know what I like to buy and how often. From this data they can roughly determine my sex, age, how many people live in my house etc. Your internet provider knows how much time you spend online, where you go and what you download. I'm sure every purchase that is made with a card is recorded and kept. They know how often I travel and where I like to go. Where I get my car serviced. Who my dentist is. I'm betting that info has likely been sold many times over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64
And this doesn't bother you? It should.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
Within reason, no, it doesn't bother me.
I think we can agree that for every individual there is a different level of "within reason". For many different scenarios, some literally for safety, some financial, some personal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
For example if my "dossier" indicates that I prefer to vacation in St. Maarten, I might magically see ads for good deals on St. Maarten vacations. I'm actually not opposed to that. Targeted advertising does have it's benefits. I'd rather see ads for products and services that I'm likely to actually need or use, rather than ads for make-up and feminine hygiene products.
For the most part, this can be done (and has been done for 50 years) simply by targeting toward the demographic of the web site, article content, TV show, magazine, etc... And I have no problem with that at all. It's not AS accurate as profiling, but it's reasonably accurate without delving into personal privacy issues. You don't find feminine hygiene ads when you're reading here on AI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
To my knowledge, using my debit card to buy groceries has not harmed me in any way. Sure, they know that I prefer Corn Flakes to Apple Jacks and Monterey Jack cheese to marble, but so what? I earn about $300 a year in free groceries via my debit card and MasterCard.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
As long as things don't go too far, I can live with them knowing that my favourite snack is a cold Bacardi Limon with Coke and some Cool Ranch Doritos... And now you all know too. Oh my.
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
Perhaps this is fair. I subsidize your groceries and you subsidize my auto insurance! But deep profiling leads down a dangerous path. You can know with great certainty that the actuaries will use whatever information at their disposal, no matter how odd, and we in the general public will not have a clue that if we tend to shop at certain hours in certain places for certain items, then we are, statistically speaking, a higher risk. Actuaries don't need to justify the "why", they only need to care about data relationships.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
Cheers!
Cheers back as well. Sane conversations where people can disagree without name calling are what makes this board (usually) great. The magicj dude isn't doing himself any favors on this topic (although I agree with some of his points), but at least he's maintained a civil attitude, which can't be said of some of his detractors.
Comments
Apple knew what they had done was a serious mistake. It's why they were so quick to fix it and why the fix completely removed the file from the computer.
That this data was stored on your computer is not a serious mistake. Not even close. EVERY program that runs on your computer saves data to the computer. What it is, is a minor oversight. An oversight that has harmed no one and is being remedied in the next release of iOS which will no longer save the info on your computer. Big whoop.
This oversight would have been fixed even without all the hoopla. Nothing nefarious is going on here. Personal data was saved to your computer. Just like every other application under the sun. The same computer you should have protected with security passwords and keep in a safe place (maybe even locked up depending on where you use it) I might add.
The only 100% protection here is not to use a computer at all because after all, it may be stolen and someone may gain access to your data.
And again. You've been robbed or someone has gained access to ALL the personal information in your computer and what you're most worried about is data that divulges the round-about locations you've visited?
Priorities. They're important.
Ok buddy, tell me how you will get access to my contact info, cause I am not using it as screensaver, I am behind firewalls and lil snitch, the computer password protected and have a dog in my apartment.
My iPhone is locked almost all the time cause I use my bluetooth headset and the only 2 things i can connect to it is the headset and my main iMac.
Have no fishy app installed, my phone is not jailbroken.
Please tell me...
I think that's a very good question. It was raised in the Congressional hearings and the answer is that privacy needs to be built in from the start.
It's all very good and well that you've taken these precautions (you could also encrypt your drive). But these hearings aren't about you. They're about privacy policy in general. So let's contrast Apple's current policy with Google's current policy:
● Apple states on paper that developers cannot access a user's contact data. If Apple discovers a developer doing that, the require the developer to remove such functionality within 24 hours or have their app removed from the store. No other action is taken.
● Google programmatically prohibits apps from accessing contact data without the user's permission.
In this particular case, Google has privacy built in from the start, whereas Apple relies on random checks or an app being reported to the company for bad behavior.
At the end of the day, neither of these policies are perfect. Neither does everything that can (and should) be done to protect the user. But Google's policy is more robust. I'll hazard a guess that Google's policy is probably the direction the new regulations will go.
Note that I'm not trying to generalize this particular example to all of Google and Apple. Google has issues of its own regarding privacy.
Something's fishy.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal. But because Apple saves a file of general location to your computer, they get taken to the DoJ.
Something's fishy.
The Sony issue is a big deal and was also discussed at the hearings.
It turns out you cannot sue Sony for the hack, even if it shown they did not take proper precautions to protect your personal information. This is probably another issue that will be addressed with new legislation.
The only 100% protection here is not to use a computer at all because after all, it may be stolen and someone may gain access to your data.
I'm skipping the first part of your post because, honestly, the consolidated.db issue has been beaten to death.
It's well understood that there will never be 100% protection. That doesn't imply that current protection can't be improved.
I'd like to give Apple the benefit of the doubt and say their heart is in the right place. It's just getting harder and harder to do that. The revelation at the Congressional hearings that iOS allows any app developer to pull _all_ your contact information without your permission or even your knowledge was pretty surprising to me, for example.
Unfortunately for Apple, that file was shown to be able to track one of the folks who testified to Congress to within 20 feet of his actual location as determined by GPS. Also, Skyhook, the originator of the technique used to create that file, says it was designed to track individuals to within 200 - 1000 meter accuracy, not the 100s of miles claimed by Steve Jobs in a press release. http://www.skyhookwireless.com/howitworks/
The lies are wearing thin and it's time for Apple to provide a complete end-too-end privacy policy that isn't packed with smoke and mirrors. They can do it themselves, or they can have the government do it for them.
Seriously, you need to stop jumping to erroneous conclusions based on incorrect assumptions. For example assuming that Skyhook knows precisely what the file config is is silly - they don't know what if any modifications that Apple has made to the original config. And if you had read carefully Jobs said that SOME of the locations were up to 100s of miles away. Again, you are rabidly and deliberately misunderstanding the use of the file by Apple to support your paranoia. The testimony didn't report whether that person was within 20 feet of a Wifi unit, unlikely that it would have been a cell tower (without noticing). This is an epic fail commentary - demonstrating a serious lack of technological understanding and a complete failure to read for actual comprehension.
So probably best for you to go back to using a simple feature phone to ease your self-generated discomfort over a non-issue. But don't use your credit card at any local merchants, don't register for driver's licenses, don't use Paypass on the tollways, and don't write any checks. Don't list on Facebook. In fact don't use your browser, stay of the internet altogether really. You are hemorrhaging personal information like a hemophiliac in a slasher movie.
Seriously, you need to stop jumping to erroneous conclusions based on incorrect assumptions. For example assuming that Skyhook knows precisely what the file config is is silly - they don't know what if any modifications that Apple has made to the original config. And if you had read carefully Jobs said that SOME of the locations were up to 100s of miles away. Again, you are rabidly and deliberately misunderstanding the use of the file by Apple to support your paranoia. The testimony didn't report whether that person was within 20 feet of a Wifi unit, unlikely that it would have been a cell tower (without noticing). This is an epic fail commentary - demonstrating a serious lack of technological understanding and a complete failure to read for actual comprehension.
Perhaps you should send this to Senator Franken. No doubt he would prefer your hand waving to the expert testimony and the documented and demonstrated capabilities of the device that he was given.
So probably best for you to go back to using a simple feature phone to ease your self-generated discomfort over a non-issue. But don't use your credit card at any local merchants, don't register for driver's licenses, don't use Paypass on the tollways, and don't write any checks. Don't list on Facebook. In fact don't use your browser, stay of the internet altogether really. You are hemorrhaging personal information like a hemophiliac in a slasher movie.
Thanks, but I prefer to get informed on what's actually going on and what can be done to improve the situation. You might want to give it a try. http://cspan.org/Events/Congress-Loo...10737421417-1/
Sigh, late as it is, I can't help but write one last response.
And this doesn't bother you? It should.
Why are people so addicted to plastic? It's really easy to carry cash around (for most basic purchases, I'm not talking about a computer or trip to the Bahamas), our society has done it for the last 100 years. Now people whip out their cards to buy a stinkin' pack of gum, it's pitiful.
The "savings" games are all bullshit, because the banks charge the merchants for each and every purchase, so we're all paying for it via higher prices, but then getting some portion of it back again, but if and only if you play their games. Our country is full of sheep. I need to stop, I should not be typing at this hour.
Within reason, no, it doesn't bother me.
For example if my "dossier" indicates that I prefer to vacation in St. Maarten, I might magically see ads for good deals on St. Maarten vacations. I'm actually not opposed to that. Targeted advertising does have it's benefits. I'd rather see ads for products and services that I'm likely to actually need or use, rather than ads for make-up and feminine hygiene products.
To my knowledge, using my debit card to buy groceries has not harmed me in any way. Sure, they know that I prefer Corn Flakes to Apple Jacks and Monterey Jack cheese to marble, but so what? I earn about $300 a year in free groceries via my debit card and MasterCard.
As long as things don't go too far, I can live with them knowing that my favourite snack is a cold Bacardi Limon with Coke and some Cool Ranch Doritos... And now you all know too. Oh my.
Cheers!
Unfortunately for Apple, that file was shown to be able to track one of the folks who testified to Congress to within 20 feet of his actual location as determined by GPS.
Which simply means that that person spends a lot of time in an area with a lot of wifi hotspots. And possible very close to a cell tower.
it's like that for me at home. My apartment is on top of a book store with free wifi, I have my wifi and that of pretty much every other of the 49 units in the building, plus the free wifi in our business center. There's a Starbucks and a Coffee Bean across the street and a public library a block over on the other side.
Am I shocked that my 'home' area is very close to my real home. Hells no.
Now get out on the road and there's a ton of spots I've never been anywhere near. That come from the crowd.
Am I worried no. THe government can get my exact GPS from ATT thanks to their laws and this file is only on my iphone, ipad and computer. You get any of those three and you have access to much more damaging stuff than knowing what wifi spots my stuff has likely been hear and when it might have happened.
As for the whole UDID issue, where's the database that shows who has what id. that's the piece I haven't seen anyone detail. They always seem to talk about 'might' and 'maybe'. And generally based on you giving up personal details during a sign up process.
Apple knew what they had done was a serious mistake. It's why they were so quick to fix it and why the fix completely removed the file from the computer.
I doubt that Apple views this as even a minor mistake, outside of the length of the file which is a bit extreme and probably was a bug. They are "fixing" it because sometimes it just isn't worth fighting a case. When location services based functions end up sucking it will be the fault of the users for demanding the file be removed or adjusted, and Apple will use that line if needed. That will be easier than trying to explain the tech to the 99.9% of the user population that aren't techies. Just like it was easier to give out some free cases as a placebo for an antenna that wasn't broken.
But at no time is Apple going to say "We made a mistake" because they don't view it that way. And even if the Senate says they did, Apple will never agree with that assessment.
Just to add on the IP matter.
Judge Harold Baker of the Central District Court of Illinois ruled this recently. The decision handed down from his bench states that an Internet Protocol (IP) address does not necessarily correlate to a particular individual, and that it cannot be treated as such during legal investigations be they civil or criminal.
Interesting, because at the Congressional hearings with Apple and Google the Department of Justice testified to Congress that it can be used for that purpose, as did a privacy expert.
These two statements are not 100% contradictory. Baker is merely pointing out that there is a flaw in the system so one must be careful about using the IP address is the only source of identity .
The Flaw? Easy. Wifi makes it easy to 'ghost' who you are simply by changing networks.
Example. I mentioned I live in an apartment building. Well at least 4 of the networks in my building have no password. Plus I have those two very open networks across the street. Lets say I want to torrent a movie but I know that the studios jump on torrents to pull IPs to have them cut off by their ISPs. So I"m not going to use my own network. I'll switch to one of those unprotected ones. Now my laptop is showing as the IP linked to the DSL/Cable Modem on that wifi router. Not mine. So my neighbor is the one that will be screwed. Or if they trace it back to Starbucks and guess it must be someone local, there's a good 10 apartments on my side of the building and two other buildings within a reasonable distance it could also be. They would have to find some additional way to figure out which of us it was.
With a cell phone etc it is worse cause you could be changing wifi nets left and right and thus showing up at different IP addresses.
That's the kind of thing that Baker is talking about.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal. But because Apple saves a file of general location to your computer, they get taken to the DoJ.
ANd lets not forget about the media. The papers, blogs etc will drag this out as long as they can because they know the math. For every one hit on an ad laden site that some other topic gets, there will be easily 1000 for anything about Apple. That's money in the bank
Perhaps you should send this to Senator Franken. No doubt he would prefer your hand waving to the expert testimony and the documented and demonstrated capabilities of the device that he was given.
Thanks, but I prefer to get informed on what's actually going on and what can be done to improve the situation. You might want to give it a try. http://cspan.org/Events/Congress-Loo...10737421417-1/
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
magicj must be the one suing Apple
It is amazing our country has so many issues like high debt, high unemployment, decreasing education level, high pension cost, etc etc and they (government) elected to get on this issue? WTF wrong with our country??
I just figured out that the phone company has published a book with my name, address and phone number. Anyone can have access to one of these, and come to my house, ring my doorbell to know if I'm home. If I'm not... they can come into my house, go to my computer and get the locations db file. Oh wait... it's no longer stored there! Guess they will have to settle for my stereo, tv and computer without knowing where I have been in the last year.
All this freak out about a file stored on our personal devices. Devices which we obviously have security control over. Password locks, backups, encryption, etc.
Better not save any data on your computer because someone may get it! OMG!
I think that's a very good question. It was raised in the Congressional hearings and the answer is that privacy needs to be built in from the start.
It's all very good and well that you've taken these precautions (you could also encrypt your drive). But these hearings aren't about you. They're about privacy policy in general. So let's contrast Apple's current policy with Google's current policy:
● Apple states on paper that developers cannot access a user's contact data. If Apple discovers a developer doing that, the require the developer to remove such functionality within 24 hours or have their app removed from the store. No other action is taken.
● Google programmatically prohibits apps from accessing contact data without the user's permission.
In this particular case, Google has privacy built in from the start, whereas Apple relies on random checks or an app being reported to the company for bad behavior.
At the end of the day, neither of these policies are perfect. Neither does everything that can (and should) be done to protect the user. But Google's policy is more robust. I'll hazard a guess that Google's policy is probably the direction the new regulations will go.
Note that I'm not trying to generalize this particular example to all of Google and Apple. Google has issues of its own regarding privacy.
Really?? You are pro google?? what a joke. SO you are saying that that very single feature makes google safer??? Now i finally get all your are about. I think is ok if u like google but whatever you say regarding this theme will be in vane since u lack of knowledge. Seriously is very silly of you post all that garbage and I know you will reply, post the link of the video. I saw it live and what Bud said is not even close to what you are saying. I just wonder if you come from denmark.
That this data was stored on your computer is not a serious mistake. Not even close. EVERY program that runs on your computer saves data to the computer. What it is, is a minor oversight. An oversight that has harmed no one and is being remedied in the next release of iOS which will no longer save the info on your computer. Big whoop.
This oversight would have been fixed even without all the hoopla. Nothing nefarious is going on here. Personal data was saved to your computer. Just like every other application under the sun. The same computer you should have protected with security passwords and keep in a safe place (maybe even locked up depending on where you use it) I might add.
The only 100% protection here is not to use a computer at all because after all, it may be stolen and someone may gain access to your data.
And again. You've been robbed or someone has gained access to ALL the personal information in your computer and what you're most worried about is data that divulges the round-about locations you've visited?
Priorities. They're important.
Exactly.
If someone's got access to your computer's information, this tracking information would be the last thing I would be worried about.
Something tells me that this is only a big deal because it is Apple. Obviously when Sony's database is hacked and tens of thousands of users addresses and other personal information is stolen it's not a big deal.
Who has said thats not a big deal? I know several PS3 owners who think it is a MAJOR deal.
Who has said thats not a big deal? I know several PS3 owners who think it is a MAJOR deal.
Well you don't see it being reported on daily by major news sites (CNN, NYT, etc) and Sony hasn't been called into the DoJ or any other governmental agency. It seems like in this case of STOLEN information, the only people who care about it are gamers and Sony haters. I find it suspect that those crying foul on Apple aren't paying at least as much attention when personal information has actually been stolen from a major multi-billion dollar company. Doesn't that deserve more front page notice than a file stored locally?
Again, Apple is what's drawing the attention here, not the "threat."
No that's not "just what he's pointing out". If he would have said "Apple should have been more careful with the location cache" and left it there, I would honestly agree with him. Instead, this topic has now been stuffed with pages full of zany accusations that Apple rapes your privacy, that it's damn right they are prosecuted for it, that all kinds of new privacy laws are needed, that people should be really worried about bad Apple and the way they think about your privacy, and so on.
Your accusations against him just aren't true. You've exaggerated out of all proportion. He has a right to his opinion without being labelled a spreader of 'FUD' etc. There are too many people on here who won't hear even a whisper of malcontent against Apple and it's plain irrational.
I don't agree with a lot of what he says either, but I haven't read anything in his comments to warrant the dismissal of his contribution as troublemaking. Several of the remarks made in reply to his simply told him he didn't know what he was talking about, or just outright insulted him, without countering any of his points.
It's spelled 'labeling', not 'labelling'. Did it ever occur to you not everyone here is a native english speaker?
You know what time it is when the grammar nazi's kick in, time to get out of this topic...
You should check your facts before you lay on the smugness. Labelling is the correct British spelling. I am British. Expecting people entering a rational debate to make their points coherently has been a mainstay of the written word for hundreds of years for a reason; you sound like a damned fool when you throw mud at someone in broken English, a little like you sound a damned fool when you correct someone's English wrongly.
For example, I get points towards groceries every time I use my MasterCard. They know what I like to buy and how often. From this data they can roughly determine my sex, age, how many people live in my house etc. Your internet provider knows how much time you spend online, where you go and what you download. I'm sure every purchase that is made with a card is recorded and kept. They know how often I travel and where I like to go. Where I get my car serviced. Who my dentist is. I'm betting that info has likely been sold many times over.
And this doesn't bother you? It should.
Within reason, no, it doesn't bother me.
I think we can agree that for every individual there is a different level of "within reason". For many different scenarios, some literally for safety, some financial, some personal.
For example if my "dossier" indicates that I prefer to vacation in St. Maarten, I might magically see ads for good deals on St. Maarten vacations. I'm actually not opposed to that. Targeted advertising does have it's benefits. I'd rather see ads for products and services that I'm likely to actually need or use, rather than ads for make-up and feminine hygiene products.
For the most part, this can be done (and has been done for 50 years) simply by targeting toward the demographic of the web site, article content, TV show, magazine, etc... And I have no problem with that at all. It's not AS accurate as profiling, but it's reasonably accurate without delving into personal privacy issues. You don't find feminine hygiene ads when you're reading here on AI.
To my knowledge, using my debit card to buy groceries has not harmed me in any way. Sure, they know that I prefer Corn Flakes to Apple Jacks and Monterey Jack cheese to marble, but so what? I earn about $300 a year in free groceries via my debit card and MasterCard.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
As long as things don't go too far, I can live with them knowing that my favourite snack is a cold Bacardi Limon with Coke and some Cool Ranch Doritos... And now you all know too. Oh my.
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
Perhaps this is fair. I subsidize your groceries and you subsidize my auto insurance! But deep profiling leads down a dangerous path. You can know with great certainty that the actuaries will use whatever information at their disposal, no matter how odd, and we in the general public will not have a clue that if we tend to shop at certain hours in certain places for certain items, then we are, statistically speaking, a higher risk. Actuaries don't need to justify the "why", they only need to care about data relationships.
Cheers!
Cheers back as well. Sane conversations where people can disagree without name calling are what makes this board (usually) great. The magicj dude isn't doing himself any favors on this topic (although I agree with some of his points), but at least he's maintained a civil attitude, which can't be said of some of his detractors.