Well you don't see it being reported on daily by major news sites (CNN, NYT, etc) and Sony hasn't been called into the DoJ or any other governmental agency. It seems like in this case of STOLEN information, the only people who care about it are gamers and Sony haters."
I'm neither (not a console gamer anyway), and I am the first to agree that it is a MUCH bigger deal than anything Apple has done.
I think criticism of Apple over the location logging is valid, but I personally dont consider it even remotely as bad as compromising things like credit card info. It is trivial by comparison.
Quote:
Doesn't that deserve more front page notice than a file stored locally?
I think we can agree that for every individual there is a different level of "within reason". For many different scenarios, some literally for safety, some financial, some personal.
For the most part, this can be done (and has been done for 50 years) simply by targeting toward the demographic of the web site, article content, TV show, magazine, etc... And I have no problem with that at all. It's not AS accurate as profiling, but it's reasonably accurate without delving into personal privacy issues. You don't find feminine hygiene ads when you're reading here on AI.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
Perhaps this is fair. I subsidize your groceries and you subsidize my auto insurance! But deep profiling leads down a dangerous path. You can know with great certainty that the actuaries will use whatever information at their disposal, no matter how odd, and we in the general public will not have a clue that if we tend to shop at certain hours in certain places for certain items, then we are, statistically speaking, a higher risk. Actuaries don't need to justify the "why", they only need to care about data relationships.
Cheers back as well. Sane conversations where people can disagree without name calling are what makes this board (usually) great. The magicj dude isn't doing himself any favors on this topic (although I agree with some of his points), but at least he's maintained a civil attitude, which can't be said of some of his detractors.
I am in total favour of restricting how our personal is being harvested and used by third parties. As you correctly pointed out, this has been going on for a very long time. I think that it's a good thing that we are questioning and discussing this. I also agree that we all have different levels of what we are comfortable with.
As far as false savings at my grocery store goes. I agree with you to a certain extent. The store I shop at is quite close, so I consider that a bonus, plus they employed my teenage son for 4 years so I am fine giving them my business. Furthermore I don't see the point in wasting time and gas driving all over town shopping "the sales". I guess, I'd be shopping there anyways so $300 in groceries, is $300 in groceries. It leaves me more money for Bacardi Limon and Coke too. (if you haven't tied it, it's delightful)
I guess at the end of the day, our comfort levels may differ somewhat, but I think we are more or less in agreement on this topic. I just take exception for everyone beating on Apple over privacy concerns. They may not be perfect, but I have seen no evidence that they are crossing lines and they are not as bad as many companies in this regard. For now, I am pretty trusting of Apple until they prove that I cannot trust them.
You should check your facts before you lay on the smugness. Labelling is the correct British spelling. I am British. Expecting people entering a rational debate to make their points coherently has been a mainstay of the written word for hundreds of years for a reason; you sound like a damned fool when you throw mud at someone in broken English, a little like you sound a damned fool when you correct someone's English wrongly.
I'd like to see you write anything in some other language than your 'British English' and see how you fare. Talk about being smug, I really hope you're not a dickhead like this in real life. You should take your own advice and stop throwing mud at people for no good reason.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
This whole topic stinks, as if the discussion is purposefully driven by shills.
I guess at the end of the day, our comfort levels may differ somewhat, but I think we are more or less in agreement on this topic.
That sounds about right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
I just take exception for everyone beating on Apple over privacy concerns. They may not be perfect, but I have seen no evidence that they are crossing lines and they are not as bad as many companies in this regard. For now, I am pretty trusting of Apple until they prove that I cannot trust them.
I'll chime in to say that I'm pretty trusting of Apple as well, but where there's doubt I still like to have verification. There are far too many fanboys and apologists around here, especially about privacy issues. (I'm not counting you in that group).
And I'll also say that as far as privacy issues, while I don't have 100% trust any organization, I trust Apple more than pretty much any major corporation that I'm aware of or deal with. Especially Google, but also banks, telcos, publishers, you name it.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
You have got to be fking joking! You obviously did NOT read the entire topic with that goal. It only took me a couple minutes of quick scanning to find these insulting comments. And there were plenty more that were accusatory and/or dismissive. He or she (magic) has been on-topic and polite throughout, you just don't agree with him. In the end, you're being a dick.
Speaking of aliases, it looks like FreeRange and d-range are the buddies or aliases.
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Originally Posted by FreeRange
You are a totally clueless hack. Please, go get yourself an education so that you actually know what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
I'm thinking of suing the trash collection service, they collect bins full of trash including letters and bills which can be used to identify me and where I live.
They don't even have a privacy policy.
Want to join my class action, Mr Chicken Little?
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange
You are a complete idiot! It is only on MY computer and MY iPhone, just like MY private contacts, private documents, private photos, private email, private bank information etc. etc. etc. Grow up!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRange
STFU - you are a tiresome bore!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
There has to be a 100 million people laughing at you right now. This is beyond belief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xsu
In other news, people shocked to find out anyone who gained access to your wallet will be able to steal your money.
Speaking of insulting, these last couple are from you. Accusatory, with no justification whatsoever. Yeah, you really went back and read this thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range
This is last thing I'm going to say on this topic: you are now so obviously trying to stuff this topic with statements that serve no other purpose than to make Apple look bad, that I'm almost 100% sure you are a shill.
Your style of commenting, your non-sequitur arguments, and the fact that you obsessively try to make sure there are more of your posts saying negative things about Apple instead of trying to have an intelligent conversation based on arguments says it all. You are here to spread FUD, not because you care about privacy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d-range
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
Speaking of insulting, these last couple are from you. Accusatory, with no justification whatsoever. Yeah, you really went back and read this thread.
Excuse me, but what part of those two quotes from me you managed to dig up are insulting?
Like I said, this topic stinks, there's 3 or 4 people posting the exact same thing over and over again, not responding to any actual arguments being made by other commenters, propping each other up and trying to divert from the topic by pointing out how reasonable their 1 million posts without any substance are, then coming back the next day to continue their work.
It's already gone as far that we're now at the level where you guys have to resort to complaining about my 'broken English', pretending as if I've been insulting to anyone, or trying to excuse Apple from messing up the way they handle the location cache. Anyone with time to spare can go back and read this whole thread to conclude none of this is true. Not that I recommend it, because there is hardly anything of value left in this discussion with all the hollow words from people like yourself.
Assuming that any contact mining actually occurred, which hasn't been proven, IMO it would not be Apple's fault anyway. They don't condone it.
With that said, it might not be enough to actually get them off the hook if it is happening. Apple makes it clear they maintain total control over their ecosystem, and has told it's users they have nothing to fear as long as they stay in the garden. Add Apple's statements that every app is checked for conformity to Apple's policies before being approved for the AppStore. They do give iOS users multiple assurances that they don't have to worry about any applications approved by Apple.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
It only distracts from real privacy issues, such as giving up your first-born just to board a flight into the US, getting sued because your IP address is flagged as a pirate, the government wiretapping as if it's day-to-day business (2 million times a year where I live, in a country of 16 million), devices in my car that track my every movement so I can get taxed based on where I drive at what time, etc.
You should be careful offering this kind of information on a public forum like this. It might lead to people thinking you are in The Netherlands, thus completely bypassing the necessity to hack into your iPhone location tracking database.
I have not updated my iOS devices, because I actually like the location tracking. I think it's fun to view a map that shows where my iPhone has been and when. I can also say that it isn't always very accurate. A while back I spent a weekend in Dublin, Ireland and it doesn't show up on the map, even though I used GPS to find my way to the concert venue I was visiting. I was rather hoping to start receiving e-mails that read something like: "Based on the date and time you navigated your way to 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland', and on the purchase of two tickets to a 'The Decemberists' show at 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland' that were charged to your credit card, we suspect that you attended a 'The Decemberists' show at 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland'. You might be interested in these other 'The Decemberists' show dates." But no luck so far.
Another fun thing: I recently purchased a white iPhone 4. I restored it from the backup of my old 3G. Now the location database is on my iPhone 4! should it fall into evil hands, and the criminal masterminds attached to those hands extract the location database from it, they will think my iPhone 4 was in Austria at a time it hadn't even been assembled yet! Ha! The joke will be on them!
I'd like to see you write anything in some other language than your 'British English' and see how you fare. Talk about being smug, I really hope you're not a dickhead like this in real life. You should take your own advice and stop throwing mud at people for no good reason.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
This whole topic stinks, as if the discussion is purposefully driven by shills.
Another insult, with some foul language thrown in. What a wonderful retort.
I speak French and Italian, but that's not the point. You corrected me wrongly. You're just wiping the metaphorical egg off your face and trying to throw some back at me. It's pathetic.
Magicj has a right to his/her point.
Magicj has been insulted numerous times in this thread. If you can't find the posts, please use the rather helpful quotations in the post a couple prior to this one. That you couldn't find them yourself is perplexing, to put it politely.
It's already gone as far that we're now at the level where you guys have to resort to complaining about my 'broken English', pretending as if I've been insulting to anyone, or trying to excuse Apple from messing up the way they handle the location cache. Anyone with time to spare can go back and read this whole thread to conclude none of this is true. Not that I recommend it, because there is hardly anything of value left in this discussion with all the hollow words from people like yourself.
When did anyone mention your broken English? I was talking about the thread, not you specifically. You have a bit of a chip on your shoulder.
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
I'm not entirely how true this is, but I've been told that over the years complete profiles have been built about us. What we buy and how often. Where we vacation. How often we vacation. What we drive. How often we change vehicles. Who we insure with. How much our household bills run. They make educated guesses about our incomes etc. If true this is a bit unnerving.
Again, I think that much of this is primarily for targeted advertising.
Another insult, with some foul language thrown in. What a wonderful retort.
I'm sorry you're so easily offended, but 'being dickheaded/being a dickhead' to me is just another way of saying you are being obtuse by resorting to grammar fascism. If you perceive that as a personal insult, I apologize.
Quote:
I speak French and Italian, but that's not the point. You corrected me wrongly. You're just wiping the metaphorical egg off your face and trying to throw some back at me. It's pathetic.
The correction was meant to be cynical, just to make a point that personally, I think complaining about broken English on an internet forum is kind of pathetic. Apparently it worked because you are still a little worked up about it, or so it seems.
Quote:
Magicj has a right to his/her point.
Sure. That doesn't mean he/she has to post the same thing 20 times, or that nobody is allowed to qualify his/her points as ridiculous, idiotic, short-sighted, biased, or whatever. You can't seriously mean you agree that a phone backup file stored on a private PC is a bigger risk than any other piece of private information stored on the same PC, especially if the phone backup file can be encrypted by checking off a single box right? I still don't get why you feel the need to back up magicj, he/she made his/her point multiple times, some people disagree, some get a little bit over-enthusiastic in their rebuttals, just blog business as usual. At least the people objecting to magicj's points seem to have actual arguments in this discussion, instead of just repeating the same repetitive blathering about how bad Apple has been for not thinking their location cache through a little better, and a whole lot of FUD, some of which is downright false.
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
Yup, spread the word!
So you don't really save with a card, but the problem is, if you shop at these stores and don't want to play the games, you DO end up paying more. It's a no-win for the consumer. I understand they have a right to do this, but on the rare occasions I shop at one of these chains and do end up paying more (unfriendly cashier that won't just scan their own register card) it pisses me off enough to not go back to that chain again for a long time. So they're the ones losing money, not me. Not that they care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
As far as I know this is not the case for small mom-and-pop stores, but I don't know if there are more sophisticated back channels for that data with the mega chain stores.
However, your personal data can and DOES flow the other direction, probably without your knowledge or permission. When you use credit or debit in a store, you'd think the only information they receive about you is your name (since it's right on the card), right? Nope. The banks offer your personal information to the businesses as well, so they can send crap to you in the mail. I don't know if they also send your phone #, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I was suspicious of this a few years back, so I called the bank to inquire. The first level phone drone had no clue, but after I went up one level to their supervisor I got the real story, and was given the option to opt out of that "service". Your PII is valuable data to businesses and they'll do whatever they can to get it, with or without your intentional permission!
The recent discussion of privacy is strangely fixated on a single device. I am an avid privacy monger but find it baffling that the media and public have latched onto this particular privacy concern.
Browser, search, and purchasing history are a far bigger concern. Access to personal email, documents and photos makes location data trivial in comparison. But I guess that wouldn't be as "new" seeming on the nightly news.
I'm sorry you're so easily offended, but 'being dickheaded/being a dickhead' to me is just another way of saying you are being obtuse by resorting to grammar fascism. If you perceive that as a personal insult, I apologize.
The correction was meant to be cynical, just to make a point that personally, I think complaining about broken English on an internet forum is kind of pathetic. Apparently it worked because you are still a little worked up about it, or so it seems.
Sure. That doesn't mean he/she has to post the same thing 20 times, or that nobody is allowed to qualify his/her points as ridiculous, idiotic, short-sighted, biased, or whatever. You can't seriously mean you agree that a phone backup file stored on a private PC is a bigger risk than any other piece of private information stored on the same PC, especially if the phone backup file can be encrypted by checking off a single box right? I still don't get why you feel the need to back up magicj, he/she made his/her point multiple times, some people disagree, some get a little bit over-enthusiastic in their rebuttals, just blog business as usual. At least the people objecting to magicj's points seem to have actual arguments in this discussion, instead of just repeating the same repetitive blathering about how bad Apple has been for not thinking their location cache through a little better, and a whole lot of FUD, some of which is downright false.
I'm not worked up in the slightest. I just don't like someone's opinion being treated with such disdain. I do disagree with some of what magicj says, I just believe he/she has the right to make their point without being called an idiot.
As for grammar, I don't complain about typos here and there, but when someone is insulting someone who has made a perfectly reasonable point with incoherent abuse it degrades them. It usually means the person is typing so fast in their rant that they forget others will be reading it and thinking they've lost the plot.
It's a fact of life that if two people make an argument and one speaks with good grammar and a respectful tone and the other sounds like an angry drunk hick, the first person will probably sway the audience. That's why every newspaper, radio station and television network in the world employers at least one editor.
On topic, my opinion is that far, far too much has been made of the consolidated.db file. Many people seem to have failed to understand Apple's explanation or simply don't believe it. It is annoying, much like the antenna frenzy was. That said, Apple did stuff up and I do think it shows that even Apple (who I believe to be one of the better companies in this regard) could still improve their attitude towards personal information.
I'm far more concerned that developers can access my address book and could potentially send the information therein to a third party if they so chose. I'm sure Apple's attempts to filter out these apps with it's approval process (just one more reason why I won't ever use Android), but it is conceivable they could miss something and I do think the user should be able to chose what information each app can access.
Personally, I'm not alarmed by it all. Unless someone can make an app that can electrocutes me in my sleep or steal my credit card information Ã* la PlayStation3 then I'm only ever going to be concerned to a certain degree. Having said that, more can be done with your information that might at first meet the eye and I do hope all these federal investigations tighten up security for the user. It is clearly a huge problem in the industry, even if Apple is actually one of the better-behaved in this respect.
I'm not entirely how true this is, but I've been told that over the years complete profiles have been built about us. What we buy and how often. Where we vacation. How often we vacation. What we drive. How often we change vehicles. Who we insure with. How much our household bills run. They make educated guesses about our incomes etc. If true this is a bit unnerving.
Again, I think that much of this is primarily for targeted advertising.
Well sure, I think profiles are built around us too. But I was thinking more of what my credit card company already has as part of my account on their web site (monthly):
Retail Stores: 26.63%
Clothing Stores 4.04%
Automobiles & Vehicles 10.39%
...
Uncategorized: 2.34%
I guess I don't have a problem with that information getting out.
Well sure, I think profiles are built around us too. But I was thinking more of what my credit card company already has as part of my account on their web site (monthly):
Retail Stores: 26.63%
Clothing Stores 4.04%
Automobiles & Vehicles 10.39%
...
Uncategorized: 2.34%
I guess I don't have a problem with that information getting out.
And I find it totally unacceptable for any organization to build and own those kinds of profiles, especially to their own advantage. Hence I only use credit cards when absolutely necessary. It's surprisingly liberating (most of the time) to pay for all your general purchases by cash. No having to sign for things, much less likely to spend big $ on stupid things you regret later, no (well, less) worries about stolen info, no "life-breadcrumbs" left everywhere you go...
But we all have different pain points, and unlike a few of the obnoxious folks here (not you, afaik), I'm happy to have civil conversations without throwing insults at others who choose to live their life differently and tell them they're stupid (as much as I sometimes would like to!) . The only problem I have with the obsessive profile-building society that's creeping up everywhere is that if the % of opt-ins get high enough, it may get difficult to pay for things with cash. That not only makes me angry from a personal standpoint, but it's worrisome from a societal standpoint. It's a frog-in-the-pan scenario playing out, and there are a lot of implications.
Comments
Well you don't see it being reported on daily by major news sites (CNN, NYT, etc) and Sony hasn't been called into the DoJ or any other governmental agency. It seems like in this case of STOLEN information, the only people who care about it are gamers and Sony haters."
I'm neither (not a console gamer anyway), and I am the first to agree that it is a MUCH bigger deal than anything Apple has done.
I think criticism of Apple over the location logging is valid, but I personally dont consider it even remotely as bad as compromising things like credit card info. It is trivial by comparison.
Doesn't that deserve more front page notice than a file stored locally?
Definitely. No argument here.
I think we can agree that for every individual there is a different level of "within reason". For many different scenarios, some literally for safety, some financial, some personal.
For the most part, this can be done (and has been done for 50 years) simply by targeting toward the demographic of the web site, article content, TV show, magazine, etc... And I have no problem with that at all. It's not AS accurate as profiling, but it's reasonably accurate without delving into personal privacy issues. You don't find feminine hygiene ads when you're reading here on AI.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
Perhaps this is fair. I subsidize your groceries and you subsidize my auto insurance! But deep profiling leads down a dangerous path. You can know with great certainty that the actuaries will use whatever information at their disposal, no matter how odd, and we in the general public will not have a clue that if we tend to shop at certain hours in certain places for certain items, then we are, statistically speaking, a higher risk. Actuaries don't need to justify the "why", they only need to care about data relationships.
Cheers back as well. Sane conversations where people can disagree without name calling are what makes this board (usually) great. The magicj dude isn't doing himself any favors on this topic (although I agree with some of his points), but at least he's maintained a civil attitude, which can't be said of some of his detractors.
I am in total favour of restricting how our personal is being harvested and used by third parties. As you correctly pointed out, this has been going on for a very long time. I think that it's a good thing that we are questioning and discussing this. I also agree that we all have different levels of what we are comfortable with.
As far as false savings at my grocery store goes. I agree with you to a certain extent. The store I shop at is quite close, so I consider that a bonus, plus they employed my teenage son for 4 years so I am fine giving them my business. Furthermore I don't see the point in wasting time and gas driving all over town shopping "the sales". I guess, I'd be shopping there anyways so $300 in groceries, is $300 in groceries. It leaves me more money for Bacardi Limon and Coke too. (if you haven't tied it, it's delightful)
I guess at the end of the day, our comfort levels may differ somewhat, but I think we are more or less in agreement on this topic. I just take exception for everyone beating on Apple over privacy concerns. They may not be perfect, but I have seen no evidence that they are crossing lines and they are not as bad as many companies in this regard. For now, I am pretty trusting of Apple until they prove that I cannot trust them.
B
As far as I understand...
If you leave out the emotional reasoning and just look at this issue rationally, ...
This whole nonsense again shows the hypocrisy and eagerness of the media to jump on the big guy and generate lots of fuss about nothing....
Nice post.
You should check your facts before you lay on the smugness. Labelling is the correct British spelling. I am British. Expecting people entering a rational debate to make their points coherently has been a mainstay of the written word for hundreds of years for a reason; you sound like a damned fool when you throw mud at someone in broken English, a little like you sound a damned fool when you correct someone's English wrongly.
I'd like to see you write anything in some other language than your 'British English' and see how you fare. Talk about being smug, I really hope you're not a dickhead like this in real life. You should take your own advice and stop throwing mud at people for no good reason.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
This whole topic stinks, as if the discussion is purposefully driven by shills.
I guess at the end of the day, our comfort levels may differ somewhat, but I think we are more or less in agreement on this topic.
That sounds about right.
I just take exception for everyone beating on Apple over privacy concerns. They may not be perfect, but I have seen no evidence that they are crossing lines and they are not as bad as many companies in this regard. For now, I am pretty trusting of Apple until they prove that I cannot trust them.
I'll chime in to say that I'm pretty trusting of Apple as well, but where there's doubt I still like to have verification. There are far too many fanboys and apologists around here, especially about privacy issues. (I'm not counting you in that group).
And I'll also say that as far as privacy issues, while I don't have 100% trust any organization, I trust Apple more than pretty much any major corporation that I'm aware of or deal with. Especially Google, but also banks, telcos, publishers, you name it.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
You have got to be fking joking! You obviously did NOT read the entire topic with that goal. It only took me a couple minutes of quick scanning to find these insulting comments. And there were plenty more that were accusatory and/or dismissive. He or she (magic) has been on-topic and polite throughout, you just don't agree with him. In the end, you're being a dick.
Speaking of aliases, it looks like FreeRange and d-range are the buddies or aliases.
You are a totally clueless hack. Please, go get yourself an education so that you actually know what you are talking about.
I'm thinking of suing the trash collection service, they collect bins full of trash including letters and bills which can be used to identify me and where I live.
They don't even have a privacy policy.
Want to join my class action, Mr Chicken Little?
You are a complete idiot! It is only on MY computer and MY iPhone, just like MY private contacts, private documents, private photos, private email, private bank information etc. etc. etc. Grow up!
STFU - you are a tiresome bore!
There has to be a 100 million people laughing at you right now. This is beyond belief.
In other news, people shocked to find out anyone who gained access to your wallet will be able to steal your money.
Speaking of insulting, these last couple are from you. Accusatory, with no justification whatsoever. Yeah, you really went back and read this thread.
This is last thing I'm going to say on this topic: you are now so obviously trying to stuff this topic with statements that serve no other purpose than to make Apple look bad, that I'm almost 100% sure you are a shill.
Your style of commenting, your non-sequitur arguments, and the fact that you obsessively try to make sure there are more of your posts saying negative things about Apple instead of trying to have an intelligent conversation based on arguments says it all. You are here to spread FUD, not because you care about privacy.
How many times are you going to spam that link? Honest answer please: are you in any way affiliated with any of the parties involved in this case, or any party directly or indirectly served by more exposure of this whole legal circus?
No way some random guy on the internet that isn't somehow involved in this or benefits from it some way or another would be posting the way you do, you are making it all way too obvious. Who has been asking or even instructing you to hang around here posting all this crap?
Speaking of insulting, these last couple are from you. Accusatory, with no justification whatsoever. Yeah, you really went back and read this thread.
Excuse me, but what part of those two quotes from me you managed to dig up are insulting?
Like I said, this topic stinks, there's 3 or 4 people posting the exact same thing over and over again, not responding to any actual arguments being made by other commenters, propping each other up and trying to divert from the topic by pointing out how reasonable their 1 million posts without any substance are, then coming back the next day to continue their work.
It's already gone as far that we're now at the level where you guys have to resort to complaining about my 'broken English', pretending as if I've been insulting to anyone, or trying to excuse Apple from messing up the way they handle the location cache. Anyone with time to spare can go back and read this whole thread to conclude none of this is true. Not that I recommend it, because there is hardly anything of value left in this discussion with all the hollow words from people like yourself.
... This whole topic stinks, as if the discussion is purposefully driven by shills.
Yeah, there's a lot of that going on around here.
With that said, it might not be enough to actually get them off the hook if it is happening. Apple makes it clear they maintain total control over their ecosystem, and has told it's users they have nothing to fear as long as they stay in the garden. Add Apple's statements that every app is checked for conformity to Apple's policies before being approved for the AppStore. They do give iOS users multiple assurances that they don't have to worry about any applications approved by Apple.
You may "save" $300/year, but it's false savings. The prices were jacked up to recover the merchant fees. Then a portion of that gets distributed back to the consumers who are willing to play these games. Those of us who refuse to kowtow to the banks are in essence subsidizing your purchases (you're welcome!), but there's a ton of overhead involved; if they didn't play all these games in the first place you'd be saving a lot more. All these "loyalty card" systems (which have been shown to NOT improve loyalty) piss me off, so I just tend to shop in the higher-end stores (in my area anyway) that don't use them. Lo and behold, their prices are (generally) lower for the same items without all the crap!
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
The problem is that all this data is being shared more and more, and it's hard to know where it will end up. Your insurance company would love to know exactly how many Bacardi Limon with Coke you have every week. If it's greater than N, then they would be happy to raise your rates (auto) or drop your coverage (medical). To my knowledge this isn't happening yet to any large extent, but there have been fringe cases where this data has been used to harm individuals.
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
It only distracts from real privacy issues, such as giving up your first-born just to board a flight into the US, getting sued because your IP address is flagged as a pirate, the government wiretapping as if it's day-to-day business (2 million times a year where I live, in a country of 16 million), devices in my car that track my every movement so I can get taxed based on where I drive at what time, etc.
You should be careful offering this kind of information on a public forum like this. It might lead to people thinking you are in The Netherlands, thus completely bypassing the necessity to hack into your iPhone location tracking database.
I have not updated my iOS devices, because I actually like the location tracking. I think it's fun to view a map that shows where my iPhone has been and when. I can also say that it isn't always very accurate. A while back I spent a weekend in Dublin, Ireland and it doesn't show up on the map, even though I used GPS to find my way to the concert venue I was visiting. I was rather hoping to start receiving e-mails that read something like: "Based on the date and time you navigated your way to 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland', and on the purchase of two tickets to a 'The Decemberists' show at 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland' that were charged to your credit card, we suspect that you attended a 'The Decemberists' show at 'Vicar Street, Dublin, Ireland'. You might be interested in these other 'The Decemberists' show dates." But no luck so far.
Another fun thing: I recently purchased a white iPhone 4. I restored it from the backup of my old 3G. Now the location database is on my iPhone 4! should it fall into evil hands, and the criminal masterminds attached to those hands extract the location database from it, they will think my iPhone 4 was in Austria at a time it hadn't even been assembled yet! Ha! The joke will be on them!
I'd like to see you write anything in some other language than your 'British English' and see how you fare. Talk about being smug, I really hope you're not a dickhead like this in real life. You should take your own advice and stop throwing mud at people for no good reason.
That said, I've read every post in this 3-page topic, and nowhere do I see anyone posting anything that's insulting to magicj, so what are you even talking about. Are you one of his buddies? One of his aliases?
This whole topic stinks, as if the discussion is purposefully driven by shills.
Another insult, with some foul language thrown in. What a wonderful retort.
I speak French and Italian, but that's not the point. You corrected me wrongly. You're just wiping the metaphorical egg off your face and trying to throw some back at me. It's pathetic.
Magicj has a right to his/her point.
Magicj has been insulted numerous times in this thread. If you can't find the posts, please use the rather helpful quotations in the post a couple prior to this one. That you couldn't find them yourself is perplexing, to put it politely.
It's already gone as far that we're now at the level where you guys have to resort to complaining about my 'broken English', pretending as if I've been insulting to anyone, or trying to excuse Apple from messing up the way they handle the location cache. Anyone with time to spare can go back and read this whole thread to conclude none of this is true. Not that I recommend it, because there is hardly anything of value left in this discussion with all the hollow words from people like yourself.
When did anyone mention your broken English? I was talking about the thread, not you specifically. You have a bit of a chip on your shoulder.
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
I'm not entirely how true this is, but I've been told that over the years complete profiles have been built about us. What we buy and how often. Where we vacation. How often we vacation. What we drive. How often we change vehicles. Who we insure with. How much our household bills run. They make educated guesses about our incomes etc. If true this is a bit unnerving.
Again, I think that much of this is primarily for targeted advertising.
Another insult, with some foul language thrown in. What a wonderful retort.
I'm sorry you're so easily offended, but 'being dickheaded/being a dickhead' to me is just another way of saying you are being obtuse by resorting to grammar fascism. If you perceive that as a personal insult, I apologize.
I speak French and Italian, but that's not the point. You corrected me wrongly. You're just wiping the metaphorical egg off your face and trying to throw some back at me. It's pathetic.
The correction was meant to be cynical, just to make a point that personally, I think complaining about broken English on an internet forum is kind of pathetic. Apparently it worked because you are still a little worked up about it, or so it seems.
Magicj has a right to his/her point.
Sure. That doesn't mean he/she has to post the same thing 20 times, or that nobody is allowed to qualify his/her points as ridiculous, idiotic, short-sighted, biased, or whatever. You can't seriously mean you agree that a phone backup file stored on a private PC is a bigger risk than any other piece of private information stored on the same PC, especially if the phone backup file can be encrypted by checking off a single box right? I still don't get why you feel the need to back up magicj, he/she made his/her point multiple times, some people disagree, some get a little bit over-enthusiastic in their rebuttals, just blog business as usual. At least the people objecting to magicj's points seem to have actual arguments in this discussion, instead of just repeating the same repetitive blathering about how bad Apple has been for not thinking their location cache through a little better, and a whole lot of FUD, some of which is downright false.
I can't stand those loyalty cards either, I have never found a significant amount of savings between those stores that offer them and those who do not.
Yup, spread the word!
So you don't really save with a card, but the problem is, if you shop at these stores and don't want to play the games, you DO end up paying more. It's a no-win for the consumer. I understand they have a right to do this, but on the rare occasions I shop at one of these chains and do end up paying more (unfriendly cashier that won't just scan their own register card) it pisses me off enough to not go back to that chain again for a long time. So they're the ones losing money, not me. Not that they care.
I may be hopelessly naive but this is a serious question. When you use a debit or credit card at a place of business, do they actually receive an itemized list of everything you bought like the receipt you leave with? I always figured the credit card companies knew that I spend $XXX amount of money in each place I used it, but I never figured that they knew each and every individual item that was purchased.
As far as I know this is not the case for small mom-and-pop stores, but I don't know if there are more sophisticated back channels for that data with the mega chain stores.
However, your personal data can and DOES flow the other direction, probably without your knowledge or permission. When you use credit or debit in a store, you'd think the only information they receive about you is your name (since it's right on the card), right? Nope. The banks offer your personal information to the businesses as well, so they can send crap to you in the mail. I don't know if they also send your phone #, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I was suspicious of this a few years back, so I called the bank to inquire. The first level phone drone had no clue, but after I went up one level to their supervisor I got the real story, and was given the option to opt out of that "service". Your PII is valuable data to businesses and they'll do whatever they can to get it, with or without your intentional permission!
Browser, search, and purchasing history are a far bigger concern. Access to personal email, documents and photos makes location data trivial in comparison. But I guess that wouldn't be as "new" seeming on the nightly news.
Sheep! We're surrounded my impressionable sheep!
I'm sorry you're so easily offended, but 'being dickheaded/being a dickhead' to me is just another way of saying you are being obtuse by resorting to grammar fascism. If you perceive that as a personal insult, I apologize.
The correction was meant to be cynical, just to make a point that personally, I think complaining about broken English on an internet forum is kind of pathetic. Apparently it worked because you are still a little worked up about it, or so it seems.
Sure. That doesn't mean he/she has to post the same thing 20 times, or that nobody is allowed to qualify his/her points as ridiculous, idiotic, short-sighted, biased, or whatever. You can't seriously mean you agree that a phone backup file stored on a private PC is a bigger risk than any other piece of private information stored on the same PC, especially if the phone backup file can be encrypted by checking off a single box right? I still don't get why you feel the need to back up magicj, he/she made his/her point multiple times, some people disagree, some get a little bit over-enthusiastic in their rebuttals, just blog business as usual. At least the people objecting to magicj's points seem to have actual arguments in this discussion, instead of just repeating the same repetitive blathering about how bad Apple has been for not thinking their location cache through a little better, and a whole lot of FUD, some of which is downright false.
I'm not worked up in the slightest. I just don't like someone's opinion being treated with such disdain. I do disagree with some of what magicj says, I just believe he/she has the right to make their point without being called an idiot.
As for grammar, I don't complain about typos here and there, but when someone is insulting someone who has made a perfectly reasonable point with incoherent abuse it degrades them. It usually means the person is typing so fast in their rant that they forget others will be reading it and thinking they've lost the plot.
It's a fact of life that if two people make an argument and one speaks with good grammar and a respectful tone and the other sounds like an angry drunk hick, the first person will probably sway the audience. That's why every newspaper, radio station and television network in the world employers at least one editor.
On topic, my opinion is that far, far too much has been made of the consolidated.db file. Many people seem to have failed to understand Apple's explanation or simply don't believe it. It is annoying, much like the antenna frenzy was. That said, Apple did stuff up and I do think it shows that even Apple (who I believe to be one of the better companies in this regard) could still improve their attitude towards personal information.
I'm far more concerned that developers can access my address book and could potentially send the information therein to a third party if they so chose. I'm sure Apple's attempts to filter out these apps with it's approval process (just one more reason why I won't ever use Android), but it is conceivable they could miss something and I do think the user should be able to chose what information each app can access.
Personally, I'm not alarmed by it all. Unless someone can make an app that can electrocutes me in my sleep or steal my credit card information Ã* la PlayStation3 then I'm only ever going to be concerned to a certain degree. Having said that, more can be done with your information that might at first meet the eye and I do hope all these federal investigations tighten up security for the user. It is clearly a huge problem in the industry, even if Apple is actually one of the better-behaved in this respect.
I'm not entirely how true this is, but I've been told that over the years complete profiles have been built about us. What we buy and how often. Where we vacation. How often we vacation. What we drive. How often we change vehicles. Who we insure with. How much our household bills run. They make educated guesses about our incomes etc. If true this is a bit unnerving.
Again, I think that much of this is primarily for targeted advertising.
Well sure, I think profiles are built around us too. But I was thinking more of what my credit card company already has as part of my account on their web site (monthly):
Retail Stores: 26.63%
Clothing Stores 4.04%
Automobiles & Vehicles 10.39%
...
Uncategorized: 2.34%
I guess I don't have a problem with that information getting out.
Well sure, I think profiles are built around us too. But I was thinking more of what my credit card company already has as part of my account on their web site (monthly):
Retail Stores: 26.63%
Clothing Stores 4.04%
Automobiles & Vehicles 10.39%
...
Uncategorized: 2.34%
I guess I don't have a problem with that information getting out.
And I find it totally unacceptable for any organization to build and own those kinds of profiles, especially to their own advantage. Hence I only use credit cards when absolutely necessary. It's surprisingly liberating (most of the time) to pay for all your general purchases by cash. No having to sign for things, much less likely to spend big $ on stupid things you regret later, no (well, less) worries about stolen info, no "life-breadcrumbs" left everywhere you go...
But we all have different pain points, and unlike a few of the obnoxious folks here (not you, afaik), I'm happy to have civil conversations without throwing insults at others who choose to live their life differently and tell them they're stupid (as much as I sometimes would like to!) . The only problem I have with the obsessive profile-building society that's creeping up everywhere is that if the % of opt-ins get high enough, it may get difficult to pay for things with cash. That not only makes me angry from a personal standpoint, but it's worrisome from a societal standpoint. It's a frog-in-the-pan scenario playing out, and there are a lot of implications.