<strong>Many people here said that prostitution is not so bad, but who here will be happy if someone called him "son of a bitch".
Perhaps in Asia some women , can improve their live, to prostitute them at one time of their life. But in Europe it's not the same story : it's a really sad story.
How many people here are ready to boy-cott products made by children in poor countries ?
How many are ready to boy-cott prostitution, who enslave women at the profit of some criminals ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
However, if it was legalized and properly regulated no women would be enslaved! AIIIIIGGHHHHHHH I'm about ready to beat some people with halibuts! (not you doc...you're just the straw that is breaking the camel's back)
<strong>Could you please stop evangelizing...especially in my threads? I'm not saying you shouldn't have a right to do so but I'm not the one who makes the rules here and frankly it detracts from the topic at hand.[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
BR, what's he supposed to say? It's what he truly believes and feels. He isn't going to suppress it or hide it or not let it factor in just because it irks you some.
He doesn't evangelize any more than you mock or berate religion, so it's just the other side of the coin.
In a thread about prostitution, you're going to get a huge range of responses. And guess what? The ones you get from Christians are probably going to be quite tied to their faith.
What do you want? What would you expect?
I don't see it as "evangelizing" as much as someone just stating their opinion. But his opinion happens to be strongly tied to his beliefs. Does he leave that part out and pretend it's not a factor?
BR, what's he supposed to say? It's what he truly believes and feels. He isn't going to suppress it or hide it or not let it factor in just because it irks you some.
He doesn't evangelize any more than you mock or berate religion, so it's just the other side of the coin.
In a thread about prostitution, you're going to get a huge range of responses. And guess what? The ones you get from Christians are probably going to be quite tied to their faith.
What do you want? What would you expect?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm talking about individual freedoms and he is telling us that Jesus will set us free. How the hell does that relate to the topic?
a simple example that it's bullshit to claim that being a whore empowers women.
as groverat said, i'd love to see an example of this. someone mentioned above that one women in the state of nevada went from a whore to public office (granted no links but i'll give it to them). however, the vast majority don't.
In France prostitution is not illegal. What is illegal is to make advertising of prostitution.
It has never prevented procurer to do enslave women, and the traffic of women from africa, east europe to France (and other europeans countries).
If you want to remove procurer, you will have to protect those women, thus in a way the state will become an official procurer, perhaps a good one, but still one.
I am sorry but no countrie can become a procurer.
Otherwise i consider bitch more victims than anything else. Police should sue procurer only.
Fellowship, perhaps you do not understand Jesus as much as I expected you did.
Jesus never, never, ever, not once, imposed his beliefs on another, and no, he wouldn't vote either way. He would teach, and allow others to choose their own path. This is what I'm asking from you.
How can you use freedom in the name of a denial of freedom. Women are free from being prostitutes. They should also be free to be prostitutes if that's what they want to do. That, my friend, is freedom, and that ideal is exactly what Jesus taught.
Jesus never said to another "you cannot do this". Jesus does not condemn. That is for God to do. Jesus said "you should not do this", and implied or explained exaclty why. Should lawmakers take God's role as the judge in this matter? Or should individuals take Christ's role as teachers?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You missed what I said. I said I would stand with how Jesus would see this issue. I would not vote on it. I would be there to support those involved.
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>I know Jesus very well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then could you do me a favor and pitch him a new idea I have for a television series filled with crazy antics similar to the Odd Couple where he and I rent a studio apartment and hilarity ensues?
[quote]<strong>One difference is that Joanne Streetwalker is being more honest and fair.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Taking the absolute best-case scenario of a prostitute and the absolute worst-case scenario of a golddigger this might somewhat approach a valid statement.
In general practice this kind of thing make you simply sound love-scorned and bitter. A very jaded and bigoted view of interpersonal relationships.
[quote]<strong>And it is our freedom to question, and to change perceived social values and the norm which makes our country so great.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not just our country, but our very being as European-descendants or plain 'ole Europeans. One cannot simply change social values and the norm, those are established in a different way. And again, I'm not just talking about the moral "Jesus sez no!" side of it, it's far deeper than that.
There are very real concerns connected with prostitution that have nothing to do with the act of paying for sex.
[quote]<strong>Again, this is because of what a certain part of society sees as acceptable. It's the "it's just not right" argument once again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at all, not in the least. Golddiggers at least give the pretense of exclusivity and security, and often that is all someone needs or wants in an evolutionary sense (something you can't legislate away). But to actively seek out prostitutes in lieu of real relationships is a sign of emotional disturbance or illness and that certainly falls beyond the category of "Jesus sez no!" (although the argument can be made that "Jesus sez no!" is a primitive way of dealing with mental/emotional illness and relating issues).
There are very real and non-religious implications here. It makes the argument more difficult, I understand, but they are there nonetheless.
[quote]<strong>And what if I want is just sex for pleasure. If I'm busy with my career or just not interested in a commitment? How can I find a woman with the same goals?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not arguing for or against legalizing prostitution here. Have you noticed that yet?
--
BR:
[quote]<strong>However, if it was legalized and properly regulated no women would be enslaved!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh.... they wouldn't? How does that work? Do you think controlling and violent pimps are simply going to let their girls go? Do you think the pay-for-sex industry will stop preying on emotionally disturbed/sexually abused young girls and dominate them so thoroughly that essentially remains enslavement?
Don't fool yourself into thinking that slapping a few laws around that legalize the occupation will make it respectable. The institution of prostitution will not change so dramatically, it's impossible.
Do you not see how your argument is simply the "Jesus says no, so if we make it illegal it'll go away!" in reverse?
alcimedes:
Don't hold your breath. It's a claim they won't and can't back up.
I don't tell my mother what to do. She makes her own decisions. That is the whole point! I respect my mom enough not to impose my values on her.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You bring up some good points here.
I believe people should make their own decisions. Do I impose my values on people? No. I love people as to "share" my values with them. That is love. Just as a parent does with their child. The child may not want to hear what the parent has to say but it is the love of a mother or father to share their values with their children. That is love. It is by no means love to keep quiet and not share your values.
Not "impose" but rather "share" with supporting reasons.
Yes the choice in the end is with the choice-maker.
[quote]Eh.... they wouldn't? How does that work? Do you think controlling and violent pimps are simply going to let their girls go? Do you think the pay-for-sex industry will stop preying on emotionally disturbed/sexually abused young girls and dominate them so thoroughly that essentially remains enslavement?
Don't fool yourself into thinking that slapping a few laws around that legalize the occupation will make it respectable. The institution of prostitution will not change so dramatically, it's impossible.
Do you not see how your argument is simply the "Jesus says no, so if we make it illegal it'll go away!" in reverse?<hr></blockquote>
Take away the situation that facilitates the enslavement and eventually the enslavement will disappear. The legalization of prostitution would require strict regulation and even stricter enforcement against street peddling.
<strong>Take away the situation that facilitates the enslavement and eventually the enslavement will disappear. The legalization of prostitution would require strict regulation and even stricter enforcement against street peddling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I think you'd agree with me that the harder the government attempts to control vice the more criminals will simply work to get around the rules/enforcement.
Legalization, as we have seen, can eliminate the black market for manufactured commodities: alcohol specifically. There is nothing to indicate that this would be different for other mind-altering substances. But there's the key word 'substance'. Alcohol, marijuana, etc... are all created commodities. They are produced.
Prostitution cannot and does not fit this mold because what is being sold is a person, not a produced commodity. There is no economic feasability to "producing" your own whores, first you have a 50/50 shot it won't even be the right sex, then another risk in how attractive it will be, etc... A lot of time investment and an unreal amount of money investment.
So what do I do, as an enterprising pimp looking to capture the cheap market in a world of expensive whores (as harsh regulations will jack up the price of funtime)? I find stupid girls, girls beat up/raped by their dads to take advantage of, much like happens now. I may even kidnap foreign girls who don't know that they could leave. I threaten them with violence (hell, I'm already a pimp). What I'm saying is that the cat is out of the bag.
Granted, this will happen far less often (and thank God), but it won't go away. So you can't say it will eliminate the illegal sex trade market because that's not realistic (and I think you acknowledge that to an extent).
And past that one can't dismiss the civic morality. Now I realize that the budding libertarian cringes at THAT word but one can't simply dismiss it because morality is the basis of so much of our (valid) law. One can have a moral objection to, say, open advertisement in public channels, with no connection at all to Jesus of Nazareth. Prostitution was a moral no-no before 'ol Hey-soos was even born.
I, personally, don't like public advertisement of addictive and destructive vice. (Not, "Let's get rid of it", but "I don't like it.")
I don't need Jesus to tell me that the prostitution business is a very dangerous and destructive one. Quite honestly it's ignorant to equate all moral judgements with religious preaching.
as some background info for those not familiar with the subject.
[quote]CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE
Most prostitutes have been sexually abused as children. Finkelhor and Browne state that child sexual abuse leads to feelings by the victim of betrayal, powerlessness, stigmatization, and the sense that sex is a commodity. These feelings often make children vulnerable to revictimization, including child prostitution.18
2/3 of prostitutes were sexually abused from the ages of 3-16. (The average age of victimization was 10).19
2/3 of prostitutes abused in childhood were molested by natural, step-, or foster fathers. 10% were sexually abused by strangers.20
More than 90% of prostitutes lost their virginity through sexual assault.21
70% of prostitutes believed that being sexually abused as children influenced their decisions to become prostitutes.22
91% of prostitutes sexually abused as children told no one. Only 1% received counseling for the effects of the abuse.23
EFFECTS OF CHILD ABUSE
Children who are sexually abused are 27.7 times more likely than non-victims to be arrested for prostitution as adults.24
Men and women who were raped or forced into sexual activity as children or adolescents were four times more likely to work in prostitution compared with non-victims.25
57% of prostitutes reported having been sexually assaulted as children; 49% reported having been physically assaulted as children.26
18 Finkelhor, David & Browne, Angela. ?The Traumatic Impact of Child Sexual Abuse,? American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 55(4).
19 Silbert, 1984.
20 Ibid.
21 Ibid.
22 Ibid.
23 Ibid.
24 Widom, C. Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse: Later Criminal Consequences. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, 1995.
25 Population Reports: Ending Violence Against Women, 2000.
26 Farley, Melissa & Barkan, Howard. ?Prostitution, Violence Against Women, and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder.? Women & Health,
<strong>as some background info for those not familiar with the subject.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Lots of disturbing info there but it provides nothing but shock value.
For example, what percentage of non-prostitutes were sexually abused? I've seen some scarily high estimates.
Why try so transparantly to link the two things in people's minds. Poor quality rhetoric just backfires on your credibility.
People keep talking about alcohol, I'm sure I've seen studies linking alcoholism to child abuse. That is an area where banning something could actually prevent child abuse (by the logic of some in this thread).
Or what about porn stars? Again I've seen studies claiming very high rates of childhood abuse and read a couple of personal tales of tradgedy. It is more than enough to put you off porn if you look into it. But it is still legal to be a porn star.
Christ if you interviewed 'loose' girls who sleep around you'd probably find out things that you'd rather not know. Why don't we ban that as well?
Child abuse happens. People are ****ed up as a result. How does keeping prostitution illegal change that?
So Groverat, do the success stories not matter to you?
So to anyone that keeps saying "it's a pit of despair for women!", that's because it's currently illegal. It has a stigma, like doing drugs, that is perpetuated by laws. Remove that obstacle and the stigma will slowly lift as well.
I have yet to hear an argument as to why prostitution is wrong. It might be gross. In its current form it might be dangerous. Right now "bad" people might do it. That's all irrelevant.
These are laws deeply rooted in religious morals. Time to weed them out. As a society we need to mature and being afraid of sexuality is one of the fears this country needs to overcome.
[quote]<strong>You're right. Nor can one (or an oligarchy of the few for that matter) avoid the natural evolution of general opinion. The norm changes. Popular values change as a result of the passing of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly, so perhaps in the future the social structure (the "collective unconscious" if you will) will change to a point where legalized prostitution is the norm or at least accepted. But realize that many other attitudes will have to change as well, not just regarding prostitution itself, for it to "work".
Such is the function of democratic government; as morality changes so does law (sometimes the law jumps ahead of the curve).
[quote]<strong>Exactly! Disease. Family issues. The trauma of abuse. Crime. Making prostitution illegal make these issues far more damaging than they could otherwise be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see disease and crime, perhaps, but how in God's name will legalized prostitution cut down on family abuse and "issues"?
Abusive rapist fathers aren't sated by whores, legal or illegal. You're looking at that one from the wrong direction.
[quote]<strong>Sometimes a person is actually unattractive enough to never have the chance of experiencing physical love with someone that they find attractive.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, that's valid for a very small percent of the population. I'd say the vast majority of frustrated older virgins are victims not of physical unattractiveness but of severe social skills problems. Again; seeking out prostitution as a sign of bigger problems.
[quote]<strong>Sometimes for whatever reason someone just wants to have no-strings sex or expand their sexual knowledge or experience. And it's not ours to judge them for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Judge not, lest ye be judged" is no more valid in American law than "Thou shalt not be a whore."
[quote]<strong>Why shouldn't the law be able to beat prostitution rings in the same manner?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because, as I said above, prostitution isn't a manufactured-commodity market like alcohol.
[quote]<strong>The girls would definitely choose to work for the legal faction, so where would the pimps get their supply?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Many girls aren't given a choice. The machinations of the industry are such that foreigners are kidnapped and unaware of their rights. To them there is no choice.
Of course, legalization would change a lot of things, but the black market for younger girls will never go away because one cannot logically advocate a system that allows prostitutes younger than 18 (and, to me, 18 is even too young to be allowed into such an emotionally devastating profession for a young woman).
If demand is there the supply will come.
bunge:
[quote]<strong>So Groverat, do the success stories not matter to you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The exceptions are far less important than the rule, I'm afraid.
Disdain of prostitution exists in many cultures (modern and ancient) that do not have organized or even expressed religious beliefs. Again, the "stop oppressing me, you Puritans!" is a very tired and very narrow argument.
<strong>You misnderstood my statement. I was speaking of abuse within the sex industry and family issues caused by prostitution.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think wives are going to suddenly be happy with their hubbies going out a'whoring simply because it's legal. I hope that's not what you were getting at when you meant "family issues". Families will still feel devastated that their child/sibling is a prostitute. I don't know what you mean by "family issues caused by prostitution." You can't ever really make it like just another job. It's like going into advertising.
Legitimizing the business in a legal sense will certainly remove a lot of the violence from the pimp/prostitute relationship. That's definitely a selling point.
[quote]<strong>In the context of the above, this is irrelevant to the topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is very relevant, since it is abusive/rapist fathers that produce so many of the prostitutes we enjoy today and even with legalization it will continue to be the case. You can't simply turn a blind eye to how these girls come to selling their bodies to strangers for money.
[quote]<strong>I don't see what you're getting at. Like problems with their morals? Do me a favor. Next time you're out in public take a survey and think to yourself "is that person capable of finding a mate (that they themselveas find attractive)?" and you'll be surprised at how many times the answer would be "no", based on appearance or disability alone, not even taking into consideration social skills.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've seen very ugly couples make very ugly babies. If an ugly person sets their sights too high then that's a social skills problem.
I have met very few people who were simply beyond hope. And a few I deemed beyond hope have actually gotten some attention from the opposite sex much to my surprise.
It happens more often than you think, how do you think all these ugly people come into existence?
They go to prostitutes because they are suffering from self-esteem problems, are too awkward in groups or interpersonally, are too lazy to go meet people or just have some sort of sociopathic drive to avoid relationships completely (which is a disorder, because in an evolutionary sense we are very very heavily social animals).
[quote]<strong>I didn't get your argument before, and I still don't. Regulation is not limited to manufactured commodities.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well of course, but you asked why regulation of prostitution couldn't be effective like regulation of alcohol (and the related prohibition of both). Of course non-manufactured commodities CAN be regulated, but not with the success of manufactured commodities.
[quote]<strong>Foreigners aren't (generally) being kidnapped and forced into the sex trade here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Generally"? It happens, and it happens more often than is acceptable. For them legalization can do no good, and only potential harm.
[quote]<strong>legalizing prostitution through regulation would give organized crime less of an incentive to engage in such a trade, as customers will have less of an incentive to solicit them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I said before, the demand for young girls won't go away, and is also a very real issue. It simply cannot be stopped, though it can be pushed far into the periphery and cut down it can't be stopped.
And all this I direct to the "look at prohibition(alcohol)" argument. You cannot kill the black market of prostitution like you could the black market for alcohol (and potentially, whatever drugs are legalized).
[quote]<strong>The way to avoid this would be through education and enforcement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hasn't worked to this point and won't work in the future. It's not going anywhere.
[quote]<strong>And a legal system would definitely reduce demand for illegal services.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> "If it's not illegal anymore it isn't a crime!"
Comments
<strong>
Br I can use you by name or anyone else in the world like President Bush or you name it but you want to tell me I can not use the Name Jesus?
I will use the name when I choose.
Fellowship</strong><hr></blockquote>
JESUS IS REAL FREEDOM! Yeah. That helps the topic a lot.
so what do you think would happen if you told your mom to go empower herself in Las Vegas as a whore?
*exactly*
<strong>Many people here said that prostitution is not so bad, but who here will be happy if someone called him "son of a bitch".
Perhaps in Asia some women , can improve their live, to prostitute them at one time of their life. But in Europe it's not the same story : it's a really sad story.
How many people here are ready to boy-cott products made by children in poor countries ?
How many are ready to boy-cott prostitution, who enslave women at the profit of some criminals ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
However, if it was legalized and properly regulated no women would be enslaved! AIIIIIGGHHHHHHH I'm about ready to beat some people with halibuts! (not you doc...you're just the straw that is breaking the camel's back)
<strong>
so what do you think would happen if you told your mom to go empower herself in Las Vegas as a whore?
*exactly*</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup. That's a real great argument to keep it illegal. Keep these gems coming.
<strong>Could you please stop evangelizing...especially in my threads? I'm not saying you shouldn't have a right to do so but I'm not the one who makes the rules here and frankly it detracts from the topic at hand.[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
BR, what's he supposed to say? It's what he truly believes and feels. He isn't going to suppress it or hide it or not let it factor in just because it irks you some.
He doesn't evangelize any more than you mock or berate religion, so it's just the other side of the coin.
In a thread about prostitution, you're going to get a huge range of responses. And guess what? The ones you get from Christians are probably going to be quite tied to their faith.
What do you want? What would you expect?
I don't see it as "evangelizing" as much as someone just stating their opinion. But his opinion happens to be strongly tied to his beliefs. Does he leave that part out and pretend it's not a factor?
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
<strong>
BR, what's he supposed to say? It's what he truly believes and feels. He isn't going to suppress it or hide it or not let it factor in just because it irks you some.
He doesn't evangelize any more than you mock or berate religion, so it's just the other side of the coin.
In a thread about prostitution, you're going to get a huge range of responses. And guess what? The ones you get from Christians are probably going to be quite tied to their faith.
What do you want? What would you expect?
I'm talking about individual freedoms and he is telling us that Jesus will set us free. How the hell does that relate to the topic?
as groverat said, i'd love to see an example of this. someone mentioned above that one women in the state of nevada went from a whore to public office (granted no links but i'll give it to them). however, the vast majority don't.
It has never prevented procurer to do enslave women, and the traffic of women from africa, east europe to France (and other europeans countries).
If you want to remove procurer, you will have to protect those women, thus in a way the state will become an official procurer, perhaps a good one, but still one.
I am sorry but no countrie can become a procurer.
Otherwise i consider bitch more victims than anything else. Police should sue procurer only.
<strong>
Fellowship, perhaps you do not understand Jesus as much as I expected you did.
Jesus never, never, ever, not once, imposed his beliefs on another, and no, he wouldn't vote either way. He would teach, and allow others to choose their own path. This is what I'm asking from you.
How can you use freedom in the name of a denial of freedom. Women are free from being prostitutes. They should also be free to be prostitutes if that's what they want to do. That, my friend, is freedom, and that ideal is exactly what Jesus taught.
Jesus never said to another "you cannot do this". Jesus does not condemn. That is for God to do. Jesus said "you should not do this", and implied or explained exaclty why. Should lawmakers take God's role as the judge in this matter? Or should individuals take Christ's role as teachers?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You missed what I said. I said I would stand with how Jesus would see this issue. I would not vote on it. I would be there to support those involved.
I know Jesus very well.
Fellowship
<strong>I know Jesus very well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then could you do me a favor and pitch him a new idea I have for a television series filled with crazy antics similar to the Odd Couple where he and I rent a studio apartment and hilarity ensues?
[quote]<strong>One difference is that Joanne Streetwalker is being more honest and fair.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Taking the absolute best-case scenario of a prostitute and the absolute worst-case scenario of a golddigger this might somewhat approach a valid statement.
In general practice this kind of thing make you simply sound love-scorned and bitter. A very jaded and bigoted view of interpersonal relationships.
[quote]<strong>And it is our freedom to question, and to change perceived social values and the norm which makes our country so great.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not just our country, but our very being as European-descendants or plain 'ole Europeans. One cannot simply change social values and the norm, those are established in a different way. And again, I'm not just talking about the moral "Jesus sez no!" side of it, it's far deeper than that.
There are very real concerns connected with prostitution that have nothing to do with the act of paying for sex.
[quote]<strong>Again, this is because of what a certain part of society sees as acceptable. It's the "it's just not right" argument once again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not at all, not in the least. Golddiggers at least give the pretense of exclusivity and security, and often that is all someone needs or wants in an evolutionary sense (something you can't legislate away). But to actively seek out prostitutes in lieu of real relationships is a sign of emotional disturbance or illness and that certainly falls beyond the category of "Jesus sez no!" (although the argument can be made that "Jesus sez no!" is a primitive way of dealing with mental/emotional illness and relating issues).
There are very real and non-religious implications here. It makes the argument more difficult, I understand, but they are there nonetheless.
[quote]<strong>And what if I want is just sex for pleasure. If I'm busy with my career or just not interested in a commitment? How can I find a woman with the same goals?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not arguing for or against legalizing prostitution here. Have you noticed that yet?
--
BR:
[quote]<strong>However, if it was legalized and properly regulated no women would be enslaved!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh.... they wouldn't? How does that work? Do you think controlling and violent pimps are simply going to let their girls go? Do you think the pay-for-sex industry will stop preying on emotionally disturbed/sexually abused young girls and dominate them so thoroughly that essentially remains enslavement?
Don't fool yourself into thinking that slapping a few laws around that legalize the occupation will make it respectable. The institution of prostitution will not change so dramatically, it's impossible.
Do you not see how your argument is simply the "Jesus says no, so if we make it illegal it'll go away!" in reverse?
alcimedes:
Don't hold your breath. It's a claim they won't and can't back up.
<strong>
I don't tell my mother what to do. She makes her own decisions. That is the whole point! I respect my mom enough not to impose my values on her.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You bring up some good points here.
I believe people should make their own decisions. Do I impose my values on people? No. I love people as to "share" my values with them. That is love. Just as a parent does with their child. The child may not want to hear what the parent has to say but it is the love of a mother or father to share their values with their children. That is love. It is by no means love to keep quiet and not share your values.
Not "impose" but rather "share" with supporting reasons.
Yes the choice in the end is with the choice-maker.
Fellowship
[ 01-22-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
Don't fool yourself into thinking that slapping a few laws around that legalize the occupation will make it respectable. The institution of prostitution will not change so dramatically, it's impossible.
Do you not see how your argument is simply the "Jesus says no, so if we make it illegal it'll go away!" in reverse?<hr></blockquote>
Take away the situation that facilitates the enslavement and eventually the enslavement will disappear. The legalization of prostitution would require strict regulation and even stricter enforcement against street peddling.
<strong>Take away the situation that facilitates the enslavement and eventually the enslavement will disappear. The legalization of prostitution would require strict regulation and even stricter enforcement against street peddling.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And I think you'd agree with me that the harder the government attempts to control vice the more criminals will simply work to get around the rules/enforcement.
Legalization, as we have seen, can eliminate the black market for manufactured commodities: alcohol specifically. There is nothing to indicate that this would be different for other mind-altering substances. But there's the key word 'substance'. Alcohol, marijuana, etc... are all created commodities. They are produced.
Prostitution cannot and does not fit this mold because what is being sold is a person, not a produced commodity. There is no economic feasability to "producing" your own whores, first you have a 50/50 shot it won't even be the right sex, then another risk in how attractive it will be, etc... A lot of time investment and an unreal amount of money investment.
So what do I do, as an enterprising pimp looking to capture the cheap market in a world of expensive whores (as harsh regulations will jack up the price of funtime)? I find stupid girls, girls beat up/raped by their dads to take advantage of, much like happens now. I may even kidnap foreign girls who don't know that they could leave. I threaten them with violence (hell, I'm already a pimp). What I'm saying is that the cat is out of the bag.
Granted, this will happen far less often (and thank God), but it won't go away. So you can't say it will eliminate the illegal sex trade market because that's not realistic (and I think you acknowledge that to an extent).
And past that one can't dismiss the civic morality. Now I realize that the budding libertarian cringes at THAT word but one can't simply dismiss it because morality is the basis of so much of our (valid) law. One can have a moral objection to, say, open advertisement in public channels, with no connection at all to Jesus of Nazareth. Prostitution was a moral no-no before 'ol Hey-soos was even born.
I, personally, don't like public advertisement of addictive and destructive vice. (Not, "Let's get rid of it", but "I don't like it.")
I don't need Jesus to tell me that the prostitution business is a very dangerous and destructive one. Quite honestly it's ignorant to equate all moral judgements with religious preaching.
[quote]CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE
Most prostitutes have been sexually abused as children. Finkelhor and Browne state that child sexual abuse leads to feelings by the victim of betrayal, powerlessness, stigmatization, and the sense that sex is a commodity. These feelings often make children vulnerable to revictimization, including child prostitution.18
2/3 of prostitutes were sexually abused from the ages of 3-16. (The average age of victimization was 10).19
2/3 of prostitutes abused in childhood were molested by natural, step-, or foster fathers. 10% were sexually abused by strangers.20
More than 90% of prostitutes lost their virginity through sexual assault.21
70% of prostitutes believed that being sexually abused as children influenced their decisions to become prostitutes.22
91% of prostitutes sexually abused as children told no one. Only 1% received counseling for the effects of the abuse.23
EFFECTS OF CHILD ABUSE
Children who are sexually abused are 27.7 times more likely than non-victims to be arrested for prostitution as adults.24
Men and women who were raped or forced into sexual activity as children or adolescents were four times more likely to work in prostitution compared with non-victims.25
57% of prostitutes reported having been sexually assaulted as children; 49% reported having been physically assaulted as children.26
__________________________________________________
18 Finkelhor, David & Browne, Angela. ?The Traumatic Impact of Child Sexual Abuse,? American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 55(4).
19 Silbert, 1984.
20 Ibid.
21 Ibid.
22 Ibid.
23 Ibid.
24 Widom, C. Victims of Childhood Sexual Abuse: Later Criminal Consequences. Washington, D.C.: U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, 1995.
25 Population Reports: Ending Violence Against Women, 2000.
26 Farley, Melissa & Barkan, Howard. ?Prostitution, Violence Against Women, and Posttraumatic Stress Disorder.? Women & Health,
27(3): 37-49. 1998.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>as some background info for those not familiar with the subject.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Woo! Let's see some studies from pro-prostitute sources! *skedaddles off to bed*
<strong>as some background info for those not familiar with the subject.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Lots of disturbing info there but it provides nothing but shock value.
For example, what percentage of non-prostitutes were sexually abused? I've seen some scarily high estimates.
Why try so transparantly to link the two things in people's minds. Poor quality rhetoric just backfires on your credibility.
People keep talking about alcohol, I'm sure I've seen studies linking alcoholism to child abuse. That is an area where banning something could actually prevent child abuse (by the logic of some in this thread).
Or what about porn stars? Again I've seen studies claiming very high rates of childhood abuse and read a couple of personal tales of tradgedy. It is more than enough to put you off porn if you look into it. But it is still legal to be a porn star.
Christ if you interviewed 'loose' girls who sleep around you'd probably find out things that you'd rather not know. Why don't we ban that as well?
Child abuse happens. People are ****ed up as a result. How does keeping prostitution illegal change that?
So to anyone that keeps saying "it's a pit of despair for women!", that's because it's currently illegal. It has a stigma, like doing drugs, that is perpetuated by laws. Remove that obstacle and the stigma will slowly lift as well.
I have yet to hear an argument as to why prostitution is wrong. It might be gross. In its current form it might be dangerous. Right now "bad" people might do it. That's all irrelevant.
These are laws deeply rooted in religious morals. Time to weed them out. As a society we need to mature and being afraid of sexuality is one of the fears this country needs to overcome.
[quote]<strong>You're right. Nor can one (or an oligarchy of the few for that matter) avoid the natural evolution of general opinion. The norm changes. Popular values change as a result of the passing of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly, so perhaps in the future the social structure (the "collective unconscious" if you will) will change to a point where legalized prostitution is the norm or at least accepted. But realize that many other attitudes will have to change as well, not just regarding prostitution itself, for it to "work".
Such is the function of democratic government; as morality changes so does law (sometimes the law jumps ahead of the curve).
[quote]<strong>Exactly! Disease. Family issues. The trauma of abuse. Crime. Making prostitution illegal make these issues far more damaging than they could otherwise be.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I can see disease and crime, perhaps, but how in God's name will legalized prostitution cut down on family abuse and "issues"?
Abusive rapist fathers aren't sated by whores, legal or illegal. You're looking at that one from the wrong direction.
[quote]<strong>Sometimes a person is actually unattractive enough to never have the chance of experiencing physical love with someone that they find attractive.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, that's valid for a very small percent of the population. I'd say the vast majority of frustrated older virgins are victims not of physical unattractiveness but of severe social skills problems. Again; seeking out prostitution as a sign of bigger problems.
[quote]<strong>Sometimes for whatever reason someone just wants to have no-strings sex or expand their sexual knowledge or experience. And it's not ours to judge them for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Judge not, lest ye be judged" is no more valid in American law than "Thou shalt not be a whore."
[quote]<strong>Why shouldn't the law be able to beat prostitution rings in the same manner?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because, as I said above, prostitution isn't a manufactured-commodity market like alcohol.
[quote]<strong>The girls would definitely choose to work for the legal faction, so where would the pimps get their supply?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Many girls aren't given a choice. The machinations of the industry are such that foreigners are kidnapped and unaware of their rights. To them there is no choice.
Of course, legalization would change a lot of things, but the black market for younger girls will never go away because one cannot logically advocate a system that allows prostitutes younger than 18 (and, to me, 18 is even too young to be allowed into such an emotionally devastating profession for a young woman).
If demand is there the supply will come.
bunge:
[quote]<strong>So Groverat, do the success stories not matter to you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The exceptions are far less important than the rule, I'm afraid.
Disdain of prostitution exists in many cultures (modern and ancient) that do not have organized or even expressed religious beliefs. Again, the "stop oppressing me, you Puritans!" is a very tired and very narrow argument.
<strong>You misnderstood my statement. I was speaking of abuse within the sex industry and family issues caused by prostitution.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think wives are going to suddenly be happy with their hubbies going out a'whoring simply because it's legal. I hope that's not what you were getting at when you meant "family issues". Families will still feel devastated that their child/sibling is a prostitute. I don't know what you mean by "family issues caused by prostitution." You can't ever really make it like just another job. It's like going into advertising.
Legitimizing the business in a legal sense will certainly remove a lot of the violence from the pimp/prostitute relationship. That's definitely a selling point.
[quote]<strong>In the context of the above, this is irrelevant to the topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It is very relevant, since it is abusive/rapist fathers that produce so many of the prostitutes we enjoy today and even with legalization it will continue to be the case. You can't simply turn a blind eye to how these girls come to selling their bodies to strangers for money.
[quote]<strong>I don't see what you're getting at. Like problems with their morals? Do me a favor. Next time you're out in public take a survey and think to yourself "is that person capable of finding a mate (that they themselveas find attractive)?" and you'll be surprised at how many times the answer would be "no", based on appearance or disability alone, not even taking into consideration social skills.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've seen very ugly couples make very ugly babies. If an ugly person sets their sights too high then that's a social skills problem.
I have met very few people who were simply beyond hope. And a few I deemed beyond hope have actually gotten some attention from the opposite sex much to my surprise.
It happens more often than you think, how do you think all these ugly people come into existence?
They go to prostitutes because they are suffering from self-esteem problems, are too awkward in groups or interpersonally, are too lazy to go meet people or just have some sort of sociopathic drive to avoid relationships completely (which is a disorder, because in an evolutionary sense we are very very heavily social animals).
[quote]<strong>I didn't get your argument before, and I still don't. Regulation is not limited to manufactured commodities.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well of course, but you asked why regulation of prostitution couldn't be effective like regulation of alcohol (and the related prohibition of both). Of course non-manufactured commodities CAN be regulated, but not with the success of manufactured commodities.
[quote]<strong>Foreigners aren't (generally) being kidnapped and forced into the sex trade here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Generally"? It happens, and it happens more often than is acceptable. For them legalization can do no good, and only potential harm.
[quote]<strong>legalizing prostitution through regulation would give organized crime less of an incentive to engage in such a trade, as customers will have less of an incentive to solicit them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I said before, the demand for young girls won't go away, and is also a very real issue. It simply cannot be stopped, though it can be pushed far into the periphery and cut down it can't be stopped.
And all this I direct to the "look at prohibition(alcohol)" argument. You cannot kill the black market of prostitution like you could the black market for alcohol (and potentially, whatever drugs are legalized).
[quote]<strong>The way to avoid this would be through education and enforcement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hasn't worked to this point and won't work in the future. It's not going anywhere.
[quote]<strong>And a legal system would definitely reduce demand for illegal services.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> "If it's not illegal anymore it isn't a crime!"