No, it's a simple case of putting together available evidence, and knowing more than a little about how chips get designed. G5's will debut at 800MHz - that much is completely public knowledge. The first announce G5 product is the MPC 8540, from Motorola - and it will not ship until the 3rd quarter of 2002. That, too, is public knowledge. The 8540 is not a desktop processor - it's designed from the ground up for high speed communications applications. It is reasonable to expect that a desktop G5 will follow some time after - and, in the quantities that Apple needs, that means 2003 not 2002.
</strong> <hr></blockquote>
Ah, but normally, it works the other way around. In all previous instances, Motorola has released the desktop processor before the embedded version. If you are then going to argue that they simply don't care about desktop processors anymore, thus the embedded version here, then you are joining the camp of the ultra-pessismists. Also, as has been pointed out here before, the 8540 is *NOT* a G5. It is not 64-bit, it does not have AltiVec, etc, etc. So, the release dates and status of the 8540 actually tell us nothing at all about the G5. If that other thread I just saw has any validity, they're actually calling what we imagined as the G5 a "G4"... the 7500. I don't actually believe that at the moment, though... just pointing out that there are alternatives to 8540-derived systems.
To explain, easily, why the 8540 (theoretically, though I doubt that at this point, the embedded version of the G5) is announced and the desktop version has not been... Motorola has explicitly stated they no longer pre-announce desktop processors, since that would be tantamount to pre-announcing new Apple hardware. The link to that interview has been posted here several times.
So, the conclusion I draw from this is the status of the 8540 has no bearing whatsoever on the status of a desktop G5 to be used in Apple products.
[quote]
<strong>
Also, the G5 offers few architectural advantages for desktop computers that will matter in 2002. For example, G5 will include support for RapidIO, a feature won't be relavent for desktop CPUs for at least a year. It includes support for faster FSBs, but there's no reason why this can't be grafted on to a G4 chip much more easily.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You contradict yourself. You claim to have some knowledge of chip design, then make this absurd claim. It has been stated by people I believe (actual people who work in the processor-design field) that you *cannot* simply "graft on" a new FSB design onto an existing chip. It would require an extensive redesign. There will be *NO* DDR until the G5. That is, as you say, public knowledge.
[quote]<strong>
Then consider the G4, and its evolution. The 7400 was, as Mot now recognises, a flawed chip (the company no longer makes 7400s). The 7450 is a completely different beast, effectively closer to the bottom of its performance development curve than at the top.
What's more, there's much more to come from increased bus speeds and use of DDRAM on a new motherboard with the G4. AltiVec is bandwidth and memory hungry: adding DDRAM and a faster FSB to a G4 equipped Mac will give you a huge increase in performance for any well-coded AltiVec application. And that goes double for a dual-processor version (I'll go out on a limb and say that Apple will never make a quad-processor Power Mac: The extra price/performance isn't good enough to make it worth the money for them, or for users).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
See above about DDR. The G4 will never use DDR. The G4 will never have a faster FSB than it does now. Any chip that does will have been sufficiently redesigned so as to deserve the G5 moniker. So, by definition, there will be no DDR until the G5.
Also, it has been shown (again, I look like a fool because I don't have the links handy, but they have been posted here) that the 7450 line is *not* at the bottom of its performance curve. It's also absolutely not at the top... the iMac will have a nice upgrade path for quite a while to come.
For what it's worth, I agree 100% about the quad-proc systems. The only way Apple will ever make a quad system is if they foolishly attempt to enter the enterprise server market.
In conclusion, the only concrete information we have about the G5 is as follows:
The 8540 is not the G5
Motorola does not announce new desktop processor developments
The G5 is most definately not being released for "some months to come"
The consequences of this limited knowledge are simple: something *is* being released some months from now, this is clearly implied by the statement that nothing will be released until then. The existence/non-existence of the 8540 tells us nothing whatsoever about the G5, given Motorola's statement that they do not talk about new desktop processors. The only wiggle room this leaves us is to argue about the very vague meaning of "some months." A true optimist has already lost the argument... March is definately not "some months." A true pessimist, in my view, has lost the argument too, as clearly *something* is coming in a matter of months, not years. I choose to believe in between, and say six months sounds just about right for "some months to come."
What does "no new CPUs" mean? does that exclude speed bumps? Could apple say this, but still give the TiBook a little bump in Tokyo? It's looking way overpriced in the lineup right now, so obviously not a total overhaul, but just some more speed to keep it in line with pro specs...
rr.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Having read the article, it seems to say very little beyond "No G5 at MWTK". It certainly doesn't say no new hardware, but makes the point that all 3 lines have been updated recently.
My guess is that no new CPUs doesn't mean no faster Powerbooks. A G4 is a G4, whether 500Mhz or 1Ghz. Apple doesn't market on G4 model types, but on processor types - G3 & G4.
Also, remember Jowzniac said "planned" so they can happily go "Oops, we changed our plan".
To me, this article is just another cleverly crafted Apple request to buy hardware NOW rather than wait for G5s.
Having read the article, it seems to say very little beyond "No G5 at MWTK". It certainly doesn't say no new hardware, but makes the point that all 3 lines have been updated recently.
My guess is that no new CPUs doesn't mean no faster Powerbooks. A G4 is a G4, whether 500Mhz or 1Ghz. Apple doesn't market on G4 model types, but on processor types - G3 & G4.
Also, remember Jowzniac said "planned" so they can happily go "Oops, we changed our plan".
To me, this article is just another cleverly crafted Apple request to buy hardware NOW rather than wait for G5s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Go read my post above. The article specifically states that ALL 4 quadrants of the Apple Product Matrix will not receive an update at MacWorld Tokyo.
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t. Apple has succeeded in nothing but alienating it's pro users for at least two quarters now (personally it feels more like an entire year, but that's arguable). The current hardware config is tired and the individuals who bitch about the quality of the current hardware have all the right in the world to be pissed. To all the fluffy apple queens who just love the new imac, ipod and Iphoto (blech, what a useless app) .... shut the hell up! They might be great for entry-level users (and they are great for entry level use!) but I can't use them. Apple might as well as start mimicking pc manufacturers and bundle $1000 worth of useless apps. Hell why not an encyclopedia, or bartenders friend, or Martha's Christmas cuisine? P...lease! and what about OSX? How useless is that for the time being?
Apple has made it clear that it has replaced its prime user profile (professional artists) with general consumers with too much money and no real understanding of what they need, except that it looks cool. The same kind of people who a year ago would have bought a fu___n pc if it was cooler.
Message to apple.... get over it!!!!!
Pros want pro gear! Mac os, Final cut etc are fantastic, but personally now that I have to upgrade my systems and drop 20g's in the process, I'd at least like to feel that I'm getting my money's worth and there's no way you can convince me that the price of an apple is justified by it's fancy hardware. Aside from the G4 chip itself it's just like any other high pc box and still twice the price.
I'm not talking about switching over so don't go there. I'm just pissed of that in another 4-6 month's when I upgrade my G3 systems that it will probably be an outdated machine before I've even purchased it. What the F---. Try explaining the amortization of an Apple computer that's outdated from the moment of construction to your accountant.
Whatever, point is Apple has been talking a big heap a sh__t lately. Putting to rest the Mhz. myth etc. Well, quit talking, cuz I sure as hell wanna see some evidence to attest to that fact. Certainly the evidence posters to the AI forum have contradicted again and again no to mention the current product line. What makes anyone think that Apple is selling any G4 towers right now. We're waiting Steve !!! [[No]] I don't care about MHZ but I do want better performance overall or a better price.
To all the i-pussies out there, .... (and you are pussies if that's what your computer is used for) Flame away, I chose to be ruthless cuz I can't stand the product fetishism Apple is breading around it's toys (hardware or software) and it's wanna be power users (and don't try to tell me your not cuzz your daddy said...) that set patterns for apple to follow. Stop buying junk (CPU's included) and tell Apple what we all really want.
Not to say anything either way but what did Apple say a few months prior to releasing the G4?
Didn't Apple have some big denial saying it wouldn't arrive until next year only to release it Seybold? My memory is bad and I can't search for sources (I have a deadline 50hours and 28 mins away. Not that I'm counting ) but I am sure someone here can recall.
Does anybody thinks is a rather strange coincidence that Maccentral and the Registor both release information on the G4's future on the same day?
And, the statment "We're not planning to introduce any new CPUs at Macworld Tokyo, as a matter of fact, we're set for some months now," does not say a G5 is not coming.
I could see the G5 coming this summer if OS X 10.2 turns out to be 64 bit capable and its released in the summer. Of course, its also possible that Powermac G4's may still be around for the next 1.5 to 2 years as Apples top of the line computer.
[quote] bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd ... who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t. <hr></blockquote>
:eek:
all the "ipussies' " "toys" are not intended for you. apple is a large company. they sell a variety of software programs and hardware configurations. some of their sh!t aint for everybody. if u dont have a use for iphoto, dont use it.
as a business, apple's gotta make money$. that means selling, and their consumer machines sell. i showed my "friend" [hardcore pc user] a pic of the iMac and he said, "wow. thats cool. i want one." sure, in the past, they were mainly a pro-oriented company, but too many bailed out. so they chg'd. the greens in the colliseum.
now, i dont really think that their hi-end machines have a good price/perf ratio, but they have people putting those stickers on the machines based on economics. their machines probably [well, definitely] aren't the fastest sh!t on the block. but they are a business and gotta earn a profit. pMacs sales aren't as huge as iMac. their money now is in the cons not pros.
"mtv makes me wanna smoke crack, fly out the window and i'm never comin back." -beck
<strong>I could see the G5 coming this summer if OS X 10.2 turns out to be 64 bit capable and its released in the summer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, the more I think about this the less likely it seems. Apple is working hard to finish up the OS. It's still adding features, finalizing APIs, and zapping bugs in Carbon and Cocoa. Darwin developers are still, AFAIK, looking for ways to speed up the filesystem and polishing up the UNIX side. Major applications developers are still working on ports to the new OS.
This is not a good environment in which to launch a migration to a 64 bit platform.
My guess is that they will spend this year working on getting OS X solid, fast and feature-complete. They will give those developers who couldn't complete their apps because of holes in the system (e.g. disk and backup utilities and audio programs) time to finish their ports, deploy them, and issue a bugfix or two.
Then, it makes no sense to go to a workstation-class CPU design (64 bit) without a workstation-class architecture, which means RapidIO and/or HyperTransport. With the motherboard in place, and the 32-bit system stable and mature, Apple can look to a jump to 64-bit. Say, WWDC 2003.
This doesn't mean that Macs will be slow until mid-2003 by any means. (I don't believe they're slow now, and since I have to go to an Apple Store to have the Radeon in my Cube fixed or replaced, I intend to sit down in front of a dualie and see for myself.) The benefits of a 64-bit architecture aren't relevant to 99% of the things that Macs are currently used for, both in the consumer space and the professional. That will change, but the architecture will change in time with it.
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Witness orb: losing his grip on sanity. Let's remember, they're only computers.
<strong>Does anybody thinks is a rather strange coincidence that Maccentral and the Registor both release information on the G4's future on the same day?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple has for some reason decided to make an announcement about future hardware and had Motorola do the same.
Would be nice if we knew the reasons behind it but we don't.
___________________
48 hours and 42 mins to deadline and still procrastinating
The part that really cracks me up about this whole thing is how personal people are taking this. I love my PowerMac at home (G4 450) and at work (choice between G4 800 or 933). While I'd love to have a dualie, or even the mythical G5, I really don't need one.
Where I work we do a lot of CD/DVD programming and encoding and all of the Macs handle these tasks flawlessly. If I were to buy a top of the line dualie today and do the same tasks that I do day in and day out, the increase of speed would be minimal (or at least minimal enough that it dosen't warrant the upgrade).
For all of the people that think they need a faster configuration, what do you do that makes you need such a machine?
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who cares? Consumers care. Don't criticize Apple for making consumer products.
[quote]<strong>
Apple has succeeded in nothing but alienating it's pro users for at least two quarters now (personally it feels more like an entire year, but that's arguable). The current hardware config is tired and the individuals who bitch about the quality of the current hardware have all the right in the world to be pissed. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Tired? It was just refreshed a couple weeks ago....
[quote]<strong>To all the fluffy apple queens who just love the new imac, ipod and Iphoto (blech, what a useless app) .... shut the hell up! They might be great for entry-level users (and they are great for entry level use!) but I can't use them. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Agiain, these products are meant for consumers. If you're a pro, talk only about Pro products.
[quote]<strong>
Apple might as well as start mimicking pc manufacturers and bundle $1000 worth of useless apps. Hell why not an encyclopedia, or bartenders friend, or Martha's Christmas cuisine? P...lease! and what about OSX? How useless is that for the time being?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple is bundling more stuff now, but it's good stuff, not useless stuff. And why do you say OS X is useless? Yes, there are still a couple of key uncarbonized apps, but....
[quote]<strong>
Apple has made it clear that it has replaced its prime user profile (professional artists) with general consumers with too much money and no real understanding of what they need, except that it looks cool. The same kind of people who a year ago would have bought a fu___n pc if it was cooler.
Message to apple.... get over it!!!!!
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Apple releases some consumer stuff, and so you say they therefore have abandoned the Pros?
[quote]<strong>
Pros want pro gear! Mac os, Final cut etc are fantastic, but personally now that I have to upgrade my systems and drop 20g's in the process, I'd at least like to feel that I'm getting my money's worth and there's no way you can convince me that the price of an apple is justified by it's fancy hardware. Aside from the G4 chip itself it's just like any other high pc box and still twice the price.
I'm not talking about switching over so don't go there. I'm just pissed of that in another 4-6 month's when I upgrade my G3 systems that it will probably be an outdated machine before I've even purchased it. What the F---. Try explaining the amortization of an Apple computer that's outdated from the moment of construction to your accountant.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're making the claim that Macs depreciate. Even first-generation G3's still go for a decent amount.
[quote]<strong>
Whatever, point is Apple has been talking a big heap a sh__t lately. Putting to rest the Mhz. myth etc. Well, quit talking, cuz I sure as hell wanna see some evidence to attest to that fact. Certainly the evidence posters to the AI forum have contradicted again and again no to mention the current product line. What makes anyone think that Apple is selling any G4 towers right now. We're waiting Steve !!! [[No]] I don't care about MHZ but I do want better performance overall or a better price.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What makes me think Apple is selling any towers. How about this quote, from the article?
[quote]
"The response has been phenomenal," Joswiak said. "We're very pleased with the response we're getting to the dual 1GHz. It is the fastest Mac ever made and the fastest PC for the creative professional."
Apple has for some reason decided to make an announcement about future hardware and had Motorola do the same.
Would be nice if we knew the reasons behind it but we don't.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your probably right but when reading the Register article, it says "According to Motorola sources." If Apple had requested Motorola to do the same, I would have expected a name of a Motorola employee.
[quote]"We're not planning to introduce any new CPUs at Macworld Tokyo, as a matter of fact, we're set for some months now," said Joswiak. "Having just updated all four product quadrants, it's really nonsensical to think we're about to update the quadrants again at Macworld Tokyo." <hr></blockquote>
Set for some months only rules out new hardware/CPUs for "some months".
MWNY is still over 5 months away! If anything this statement confirms that there will indeed be new CPUs after "some months", which could be as early as MWNY"
[quote]"The G4 has a long life ahead of it," said Joswiak. "There are a number of tweaks and revs that will happen to that processor over a long period of time."
<hr></blockquote>
And we already know this, because the new iMac uses the G4. Apple's not going to boost the iMac to a G5 before the Powermacs have had a G5 for several years, and they aren't going to drop the iMac back down to a G3, so that leaves us with the inevitable, that the iMac will continue to use the G4, and that it will need "tweaks and revs" to maintain its competitiveness.
But this does not rule out other CPUs being offered alongside the G4.
So all this article really tells us is the following:
1. The G4 will continue to be offered in iMacs and Titaniums, and Apple is going to offer incremental improvements to the G4 over a long period of time...but these improvements will not take place for "some months".
2. No new CPUs will be introduced for "some months", but after "some months" , new CPUs may be introduced.
3. "Some months" could include MWNY, at 5 months away, or it may not. But it will most certainly be farther away than MWT, and probably farther away than WWDC.
I'm still looking forward to the G5...maybe at MWNY, definitely by MWSF!
I'm not quite sure what's so "deranged" about thinking that "some months" away could be 5.5 months just as easily as it could be 12. Also, where, even in the article, does it say that Apple will not be releasing any hardware for a "long time"? It says no new CPUs for some months to come. "Some months" is only equal to "a long time" if you are an unmitigated pessimist. Also, you are conflating new CPUs with new hardware. Note, though, that I'm thinking more along the lines of displays and hardware updates than weirdo i-devices. Now, I think there will be no new hardware at MWTokyo. However, it's clear that Apple is not going out of business, so there will be hardware updates during the next six months.
On the G5 note, it's positively strange how some people here argue so violently that the G5 *CANNOT* come out before January 2003. What's your stake in it? Why do you *want* there to not be a G5 until 1/2003? Do you hold a lot of AMD and/or Intel stock or something? Or is it just a case of severe pessimism, combined with the good old cliche about misery loving company? Why do you care so much about other people's opinions being positive that you have to try to take every possible chance to burst their bubble? You are bad-mouthing Apple worse than deflated expectations ever would. There's too much negativity in the world anyway. "G5 in March" is/was ridiculously optimistic. "G5 in January 2003 or even later" is ridiculously pessimistic. The truth, as usual, probably lies in between. There could perhaps be a special event sometime after MWNY and before January, for all I know. I'm just splitting the difference between optimism and pessimism.
As for your, or any one else's, "source"... I don't believe you. Too many people have argued against a G5 *even existing period* for me to lend credence to your argument just because you claim to have a source, especially when you end your comments in a degrading and patronizing manner. If you cared to elaborate as to who your source was (without being patronizing)I might be interested. But then again, this being the anonymous internet, it probably means nothing. I'm just curious, as I said, as to what your stake in the non-existence of the G5 is.
later,
Shadow Knight
PS: I actually have no stake either way, save in the continued existence of Apple Computer, Inc. I merely find pessismism unpleasant in the near term, and optimism unpleasant in the far...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dear Mr. Knight,
(OK, that was patronizing...I admit it )
I sincerely hope for the best every day, and am generally optimistic concerning the future of Apple and its offerings. However, I am also realistic, and all the evidence I've seen points toward a G5 sometime next year - not this year. The only "evidence" of an earlier release are the hopes of people with absolutely no connection whatsoever to Motorola or Apple other than the fact that they use their products. This is not evidence, and so I stick with my expectation of a G5 next year. As for other devices, that is certainly a possibility, although I really couldn't care less. If you'd like a new iPod or Apple camera or PDA, here's hoping that you get it. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
I did, in fact, tell everyone on this board that my cousin works for Motorola and that he provided me with some pretty reliable information regarding the G5. It's on an earlier thread titled "My cousin works for Moto" or something like that. Look it up. The consensus from long-time readers of this board was that I was being accurate and truthful, although I obviously have no way to prove that (until next January, that is). However, the reputation of the people who stand by my reports, combined with my own reputation as an honest and straight-forward poster on this board should count for something. You can make up your own mind - quite frankly, I don't care what you think about my credibility, since I don't know you and probably never will. My credibility really only concerns me when it comes to dealing with my wife and friends.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the G5 will appear before next year except the eternal hope that Apple will catch up in the hardware race. Frankly, as long as they don't drop off the map, anything is fine with me as long as it doesn't run Windows. The comments reported today by Motorola concerning the longevity of the G4 combined with Apple's comments yesterday only strenghten the assertion that the "killer" hardware that everyone is hoping for won't appear until next year, but that steady progress will be made throughout the year with the G4. (FWIW, all of this is exactly what I reported from my cousin last month.)
I do think that people are letting mass hysteria and unfounded hype get them carried away. Again, I'm getting tired of these boards and the unreasonable posts found on them. My only interest in posting what I believe to be the truth is to perhaps persuade a few people to think rationally and calmly so that they won't get swept away with careless rumors and have their hopes deflated with every passing Apple event without the announcement they've been expecting.
JD, I agree. I know Greg, and he's a really smart guy. Right now Apple's lineup is pretty fresh, and they need to focus on retail rollouts in the next 3 months to expand marketshare and get these new products out so people can see them and buy them. While I thought we'd see a PowerBook rollout at MWT, this won't happen, although we could still see iMovie 3 and maybe some other surprises.
Apple HAS to drive in the fact that the G4 still has left in it or else people will get the idea that the iMac is an outdated machine since it doesn't use a G5 like the PowerMacs will use. By now Apple's iMac sales have probably topped 200,000 or more, and they don't want to be on record being like "Yeah, the G4 is ok, but the G5 is SO much better." That will have a bad effect on iMac and PowerBooks sales.
I think we'll see a PowerBook refresh in May at a special event, or maybe WWDC. ( I know, people say it's only software, but Apple rolled out the Lombard G3 PowerBooks here in '99, so ya never know) I firmly believe G5s will now arrive at MWNY and Apple will hold out with the Dual GHz G4 til then as a stopgap. MWNY may also give way to a G4 iBook, 10.2, and probably an iMac bump to 867, 933, and 1 GHz.
Comments
<strong>
No, it's a simple case of putting together available evidence, and knowing more than a little about how chips get designed. G5's will debut at 800MHz - that much is completely public knowledge. The first announce G5 product is the MPC 8540, from Motorola - and it will not ship until the 3rd quarter of 2002. That, too, is public knowledge. The 8540 is not a desktop processor - it's designed from the ground up for high speed communications applications. It is reasonable to expect that a desktop G5 will follow some time after - and, in the quantities that Apple needs, that means 2003 not 2002.
</strong> <hr></blockquote>
Ah, but normally, it works the other way around. In all previous instances, Motorola has released the desktop processor before the embedded version. If you are then going to argue that they simply don't care about desktop processors anymore, thus the embedded version here, then you are joining the camp of the ultra-pessismists. Also, as has been pointed out here before, the 8540 is *NOT* a G5. It is not 64-bit, it does not have AltiVec, etc, etc. So, the release dates and status of the 8540 actually tell us nothing at all about the G5. If that other thread I just saw has any validity, they're actually calling what we imagined as the G5 a "G4"... the 7500. I don't actually believe that at the moment, though... just pointing out that there are alternatives to 8540-derived systems.
To explain, easily, why the 8540 (theoretically, though I doubt that at this point, the embedded version of the G5) is announced and the desktop version has not been... Motorola has explicitly stated they no longer pre-announce desktop processors, since that would be tantamount to pre-announcing new Apple hardware. The link to that interview has been posted here several times.
So, the conclusion I draw from this is the status of the 8540 has no bearing whatsoever on the status of a desktop G5 to be used in Apple products.
[quote]
<strong>
Also, the G5 offers few architectural advantages for desktop computers that will matter in 2002. For example, G5 will include support for RapidIO, a feature won't be relavent for desktop CPUs for at least a year. It includes support for faster FSBs, but there's no reason why this can't be grafted on to a G4 chip much more easily.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You contradict yourself. You claim to have some knowledge of chip design, then make this absurd claim. It has been stated by people I believe (actual people who work in the processor-design field) that you *cannot* simply "graft on" a new FSB design onto an existing chip. It would require an extensive redesign. There will be *NO* DDR until the G5. That is, as you say, public knowledge.
[quote]<strong>
Then consider the G4, and its evolution. The 7400 was, as Mot now recognises, a flawed chip (the company no longer makes 7400s). The 7450 is a completely different beast, effectively closer to the bottom of its performance development curve than at the top.
What's more, there's much more to come from increased bus speeds and use of DDRAM on a new motherboard with the G4. AltiVec is bandwidth and memory hungry: adding DDRAM and a faster FSB to a G4 equipped Mac will give you a huge increase in performance for any well-coded AltiVec application. And that goes double for a dual-processor version (I'll go out on a limb and say that Apple will never make a quad-processor Power Mac: The extra price/performance isn't good enough to make it worth the money for them, or for users).
</strong><hr></blockquote>
See above about DDR. The G4 will never use DDR. The G4 will never have a faster FSB than it does now. Any chip that does will have been sufficiently redesigned so as to deserve the G5 moniker. So, by definition, there will be no DDR until the G5.
Also, it has been shown (again, I look like a fool because I don't have the links handy, but they have been posted here) that the 7450 line is *not* at the bottom of its performance curve. It's also absolutely not at the top... the iMac will have a nice upgrade path for quite a while to come.
For what it's worth, I agree 100% about the quad-proc systems. The only way Apple will ever make a quad system is if they foolishly attempt to enter the enterprise server market.
In conclusion, the only concrete information we have about the G5 is as follows:
- The 8540 is not the G5
- Motorola does not announce new desktop processor developments
- The G5 is most definately not being released for "some months to come"
The consequences of this limited knowledge are simple: something *is* being released some months from now, this is clearly implied by the statement that nothing will be released until then. The existence/non-existence of the 8540 tells us nothing whatsoever about the G5, given Motorola's statement that they do not talk about new desktop processors. The only wiggle room this leaves us is to argue about the very vague meaning of "some months." A true optimist has already lost the argument... March is definately not "some months." A true pessimist, in my view, has lost the argument too, as clearly *something* is coming in a matter of months, not years. I choose to believe in between, and say six months sounds just about right for "some months to come."later,
Shadow Knight
<strong>Question on semantics:
What does "no new CPUs" mean? does that exclude speed bumps? Could apple say this, but still give the TiBook a little bump in Tokyo? It's looking way overpriced in the lineup right now, so obviously not a total overhaul, but just some more speed to keep it in line with pro specs...
rr.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Having read the article, it seems to say very little beyond "No G5 at MWTK". It certainly doesn't say no new hardware, but makes the point that all 3 lines have been updated recently.
My guess is that no new CPUs doesn't mean no faster Powerbooks. A G4 is a G4, whether 500Mhz or 1Ghz. Apple doesn't market on G4 model types, but on processor types - G3 & G4.
Also, remember Jowzniac said "planned" so they can happily go "Oops, we changed our plan".
To me, this article is just another cleverly crafted Apple request to buy hardware NOW rather than wait for G5s.
<strong>
Having read the article, it seems to say very little beyond "No G5 at MWTK". It certainly doesn't say no new hardware, but makes the point that all 3 lines have been updated recently.
My guess is that no new CPUs doesn't mean no faster Powerbooks. A G4 is a G4, whether 500Mhz or 1Ghz. Apple doesn't market on G4 model types, but on processor types - G3 & G4.
Also, remember Jowzniac said "planned" so they can happily go "Oops, we changed our plan".
To me, this article is just another cleverly crafted Apple request to buy hardware NOW rather than wait for G5s.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Go read my post above. The article specifically states that ALL 4 quadrants of the Apple Product Matrix will not receive an update at MacWorld Tokyo.
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t. Apple has succeeded in nothing but alienating it's pro users for at least two quarters now (personally it feels more like an entire year, but that's arguable). The current hardware config is tired and the individuals who bitch about the quality of the current hardware have all the right in the world to be pissed. To all the fluffy apple queens who just love the new imac, ipod and Iphoto (blech, what a useless app) .... shut the hell up! They might be great for entry-level users (and they are great for entry level use!) but I can't use them. Apple might as well as start mimicking pc manufacturers and bundle $1000 worth of useless apps. Hell why not an encyclopedia, or bartenders friend, or Martha's Christmas cuisine? P...lease! and what about OSX? How useless is that for the time being?
Apple has made it clear that it has replaced its prime user profile (professional artists) with general consumers with too much money and no real understanding of what they need, except that it looks cool. The same kind of people who a year ago would have bought a fu___n pc if it was cooler.
Message to apple.... get over it!!!!!
Pros want pro gear! Mac os, Final cut etc are fantastic, but personally now that I have to upgrade my systems and drop 20g's in the process, I'd at least like to feel that I'm getting my money's worth and there's no way you can convince me that the price of an apple is justified by it's fancy hardware. Aside from the G4 chip itself it's just like any other high pc box and still twice the price.
I'm not talking about switching over so don't go there. I'm just pissed of that in another 4-6 month's when I upgrade my G3 systems that it will probably be an outdated machine before I've even purchased it. What the F---. Try explaining the amortization of an Apple computer that's outdated from the moment of construction to your accountant.
Whatever, point is Apple has been talking a big heap a sh__t lately. Putting to rest the Mhz. myth etc. Well, quit talking, cuz I sure as hell wanna see some evidence to attest to that fact. Certainly the evidence posters to the AI forum have contradicted again and again no to mention the current product line. What makes anyone think that Apple is selling any G4 towers right now. We're waiting Steve !!! [[No]] I don't care about MHZ but I do want better performance overall or a better price.
To all the i-pussies out there, .... (and you are pussies if that's what your computer is used for) Flame away, I chose to be ruthless cuz I can't stand the product fetishism Apple is breading around it's toys (hardware or software) and it's wanna be power users (and don't try to tell me your not cuzz your daddy said...) that set patterns for apple to follow. Stop buying junk (CPU's included) and tell Apple what we all really want.
[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: orb24 ]</p>
Didn't Apple have some big denial saying it wouldn't arrive until next year only to release it Seybold? My memory is bad and I can't search for sources (I have a deadline 50hours and 28 mins away. Not that I'm counting
[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Telomar ]</p>
And, the statment "We're not planning to introduce any new CPUs at Macworld Tokyo, as a matter of fact, we're set for some months now," does not say a G5 is not coming.
I could see the G5 coming this summer if OS X 10.2 turns out to be 64 bit capable and its released in the summer. Of course, its also possible that Powermac G4's may still be around for the next 1.5 to 2 years as Apples top of the line computer.
:eek:
all the "ipussies' " "toys" are not intended for you. apple is a large company. they sell a variety of software programs and hardware configurations. some of their sh!t aint for everybody. if u dont have a use for iphoto, dont use it.
as a business, apple's gotta make money$. that means selling, and their consumer machines sell. i showed my "friend" [hardcore pc user] a pic of the iMac and he said, "wow. thats cool. i want one." sure, in the past, they were mainly a pro-oriented company, but too many bailed out. so they chg'd. the greens in the colliseum.
now, i dont really think that their hi-end machines have a good price/perf ratio, but they have people putting those stickers on the machines based on economics. their machines probably [well, definitely] aren't the fastest sh!t on the block. but they are a business and gotta earn a profit. pMacs sales aren't as huge as iMac. their money now is in the cons not pros.
"mtv makes me wanna smoke crack, fly out the window and i'm never comin back." -beck
<strong>I could see the G5 coming this summer if OS X 10.2 turns out to be 64 bit capable and its released in the summer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, the more I think about this the less likely it seems. Apple is working hard to finish up the OS. It's still adding features, finalizing APIs, and zapping bugs in Carbon and Cocoa. Darwin developers are still, AFAIK, looking for ways to speed up the filesystem and polishing up the UNIX side. Major applications developers are still working on ports to the new OS.
This is not a good environment in which to launch a migration to a 64 bit platform.
My guess is that they will spend this year working on getting OS X solid, fast and feature-complete. They will give those developers who couldn't complete their apps because of holes in the system (e.g. disk and backup utilities and audio programs) time to finish their ports, deploy them, and issue a bugfix or two.
Then, it makes no sense to go to a workstation-class CPU design (64 bit) without a workstation-class architecture, which means RapidIO and/or HyperTransport. With the motherboard in place, and the 32-bit system stable and mature, Apple can look to a jump to 64-bit. Say, WWDC 2003.
This doesn't mean that Macs will be slow until mid-2003 by any means. (I don't believe they're slow now, and since I have to go to an Apple Store to have the Radeon in my Cube fixed or replaced, I intend to sit down in front of a dualie and see for myself.) The benefits of a 64-bit architecture aren't relevant to 99% of the things that Macs are currently used for, both in the consumer space and the professional. That will change, but the architecture will change in time with it.
<strong>I just had to reply to this forum....
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Witness orb: losing his grip on sanity. Let's remember, they're only computers.
<looks over the edge and waves to orb.>
Not saying there will be any new hardware at Tokyo, there probably wont, but maybe something at a non expo.
<strong>Does anybody thinks is a rather strange coincidence that Maccentral and the Registor both release information on the G4's future on the same day?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple has for some reason decided to make an announcement about future hardware and had Motorola do the same.
Would be nice if we knew the reasons behind it but we don't.
___________________
48 hours and 42 mins to deadline and still procrastinating
Where I work we do a lot of CD/DVD programming and encoding and all of the Macs handle these tasks flawlessly. If I were to buy a top of the line dualie today and do the same tasks that I do day in and day out, the increase of speed would be minimal (or at least minimal enough that it dosen't warrant the upgrade).
For all of the people that think they need a faster configuration, what do you do that makes you need such a machine?
<strong>I just had to reply to this forum....
Who are you people? I can't believe that bullsh__T software like iphoto, idvd whatever matters to any of you. Give me a freakin break! [[Laughing]] As far as apples toys go, who fu__in cares! I sure as hell don't care about apples ipod or some other consumer bull___t.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Who cares? Consumers care. Don't criticize Apple for making consumer products.
[quote]<strong>
Apple has succeeded in nothing but alienating it's pro users for at least two quarters now (personally it feels more like an entire year, but that's arguable). The current hardware config is tired and the individuals who bitch about the quality of the current hardware have all the right in the world to be pissed. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Tired? It was just refreshed a couple weeks ago....
[quote]<strong>To all the fluffy apple queens who just love the new imac, ipod and Iphoto (blech, what a useless app) .... shut the hell up! They might be great for entry-level users (and they are great for entry level use!) but I can't use them. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Agiain, these products are meant for consumers. If you're a pro, talk only about Pro products.
[quote]<strong>
Apple might as well as start mimicking pc manufacturers and bundle $1000 worth of useless apps. Hell why not an encyclopedia, or bartenders friend, or Martha's Christmas cuisine? P...lease! and what about OSX? How useless is that for the time being?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple is bundling more stuff now, but it's good stuff, not useless stuff. And why do you say OS X is useless? Yes, there are still a couple of key uncarbonized apps, but....
[quote]<strong>
Apple has made it clear that it has replaced its prime user profile (professional artists) with general consumers with too much money and no real understanding of what they need, except that it looks cool. The same kind of people who a year ago would have bought a fu___n pc if it was cooler.
Message to apple.... get over it!!!!!
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Apple releases some consumer stuff, and so you say they therefore have abandoned the Pros?
[quote]<strong>
Pros want pro gear! Mac os, Final cut etc are fantastic, but personally now that I have to upgrade my systems and drop 20g's in the process, I'd at least like to feel that I'm getting my money's worth and there's no way you can convince me that the price of an apple is justified by it's fancy hardware. Aside from the G4 chip itself it's just like any other high pc box and still twice the price.
I'm not talking about switching over so don't go there. I'm just pissed of that in another 4-6 month's when I upgrade my G3 systems that it will probably be an outdated machine before I've even purchased it. What the F---. Try explaining the amortization of an Apple computer that's outdated from the moment of construction to your accountant.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're making the claim that Macs depreciate. Even first-generation G3's still go for a decent amount.
[quote]<strong>
Whatever, point is Apple has been talking a big heap a sh__t lately. Putting to rest the Mhz. myth etc. Well, quit talking, cuz I sure as hell wanna see some evidence to attest to that fact. Certainly the evidence posters to the AI forum have contradicted again and again no to mention the current product line. What makes anyone think that Apple is selling any G4 towers right now. We're waiting Steve !!! [[No]] I don't care about MHZ but I do want better performance overall or a better price.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What makes me think Apple is selling any towers. How about this quote, from the article?
[quote]
"The response has been phenomenal," Joswiak said. "We're very pleased with the response we're getting to the dual 1GHz. It is the fastest Mac ever made and the fastest PC for the creative professional."
<hr></blockquote>
<strong>
Apple has for some reason decided to make an announcement about future hardware and had Motorola do the same.
Would be nice if we knew the reasons behind it but we don't.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your probably right but when reading the Register article, it says "According to Motorola sources." If Apple had requested Motorola to do the same, I would have expected a name of a Motorola employee.
Set for some months only rules out new hardware/CPUs for "some months".
MWNY is still over 5 months away! If anything this statement confirms that there will indeed be new CPUs after "some months", which could be as early as MWNY"
[quote]"The G4 has a long life ahead of it," said Joswiak. "There are a number of tweaks and revs that will happen to that processor over a long period of time."
<hr></blockquote>
And we already know this, because the new iMac uses the G4. Apple's not going to boost the iMac to a G5 before the Powermacs have had a G5 for several years, and they aren't going to drop the iMac back down to a G3, so that leaves us with the inevitable, that the iMac will continue to use the G4, and that it will need "tweaks and revs" to maintain its competitiveness.
But this does not rule out other CPUs being offered alongside the G4.
So all this article really tells us is the following:
1. The G4 will continue to be offered in iMacs and Titaniums, and Apple is going to offer incremental improvements to the G4 over a long period of time...but these improvements will not take place for "some months".
2. No new CPUs will be introduced for "some months", but after "some months" , new CPUs may be introduced.
3. "Some months" could include MWNY, at 5 months away, or it may not. But it will most certainly be farther away than MWT, and probably farther away than WWDC.
I'm still looking forward to the G5...maybe at MWNY, definitely by MWSF!
Maybe if I went Vegan this would all make sense?
<strong>
I'm not quite sure what's so "deranged" about thinking that "some months" away could be 5.5 months just as easily as it could be 12. Also, where, even in the article, does it say that Apple will not be releasing any hardware for a "long time"? It says no new CPUs for some months to come. "Some months" is only equal to "a long time" if you are an unmitigated pessimist. Also, you are conflating new CPUs with new hardware. Note, though, that I'm thinking more along the lines of displays and hardware updates than weirdo i-devices. Now, I think there will be no new hardware at MWTokyo. However, it's clear that Apple is not going out of business, so there will be hardware updates during the next six months.
On the G5 note, it's positively strange how some people here argue so violently that the G5 *CANNOT* come out before January 2003. What's your stake in it? Why do you *want* there to not be a G5 until 1/2003? Do you hold a lot of AMD and/or Intel stock or something? Or is it just a case of severe pessimism, combined with the good old cliche about misery loving company? Why do you care so much about other people's opinions being positive that you have to try to take every possible chance to burst their bubble? You are bad-mouthing Apple worse than deflated expectations ever would. There's too much negativity in the world anyway. "G5 in March" is/was ridiculously optimistic. "G5 in January 2003 or even later" is ridiculously pessimistic. The truth, as usual, probably lies in between. There could perhaps be a special event sometime after MWNY and before January, for all I know. I'm just splitting the difference between optimism and pessimism.
As for your, or any one else's, "source"... I don't believe you. Too many people have argued against a G5 *even existing period* for me to lend credence to your argument just because you claim to have a source, especially when you end your comments in a degrading and patronizing manner. If you cared to elaborate as to who your source was (without being patronizing)I might be interested. But then again, this being the anonymous internet, it probably means nothing. I'm just curious, as I said, as to what your stake in the non-existence of the G5 is.
later,
Shadow Knight
PS: I actually have no stake either way, save in the continued existence of Apple Computer, Inc. I merely find pessismism unpleasant in the near term, and optimism unpleasant in the far...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dear Mr. Knight,
(OK, that was patronizing...I admit it
I sincerely hope for the best every day, and am generally optimistic concerning the future of Apple and its offerings. However, I am also realistic, and all the evidence I've seen points toward a G5 sometime next year - not this year. The only "evidence" of an earlier release are the hopes of people with absolutely no connection whatsoever to Motorola or Apple other than the fact that they use their products. This is not evidence, and so I stick with my expectation of a G5 next year. As for other devices, that is certainly a possibility, although I really couldn't care less. If you'd like a new iPod or Apple camera or PDA, here's hoping that you get it. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
I did, in fact, tell everyone on this board that my cousin works for Motorola and that he provided me with some pretty reliable information regarding the G5. It's on an earlier thread titled "My cousin works for Moto" or something like that. Look it up. The consensus from long-time readers of this board was that I was being accurate and truthful, although I obviously have no way to prove that (until next January, that is). However, the reputation of the people who stand by my reports, combined with my own reputation as an honest and straight-forward poster on this board should count for something. You can make up your own mind - quite frankly, I don't care what you think about my credibility, since I don't know you and probably never will. My credibility really only concerns me when it comes to dealing with my wife and friends.
There is absolutely no reason to believe that the G5 will appear before next year except the eternal hope that Apple will catch up in the hardware race. Frankly, as long as they don't drop off the map, anything is fine with me as long as it doesn't run Windows. The comments reported today by Motorola concerning the longevity of the G4 combined with Apple's comments yesterday only strenghten the assertion that the "killer" hardware that everyone is hoping for won't appear until next year, but that steady progress will be made throughout the year with the G4. (FWIW, all of this is exactly what I reported from my cousin last month.)
I do think that people are letting mass hysteria and unfounded hype get them carried away. Again, I'm getting tired of these boards and the unreasonable posts found on them. My only interest in posting what I believe to be the truth is to perhaps persuade a few people to think rationally and calmly so that they won't get swept away with careless rumors and have their hopes deflated with every passing Apple event without the announcement they've been expecting.
Apple HAS to drive in the fact that the G4 still has left in it or else people will get the idea that the iMac is an outdated machine since it doesn't use a G5 like the PowerMacs will use. By now Apple's iMac sales have probably topped 200,000 or more, and they don't want to be on record being like "Yeah, the G4 is ok, but the G5 is SO much better." That will have a bad effect on iMac and PowerBooks sales.
I think we'll see a PowerBook refresh in May at a special event, or maybe WWDC. ( I know, people say it's only software, but Apple rolled out the Lombard G3 PowerBooks here in '99, so ya never know) I firmly believe G5s will now arrive at MWNY and Apple will hold out with the Dual GHz G4 til then as a stopgap. MWNY may also give way to a G4 iBook, 10.2, and probably an iMac bump to 867, 933, and 1 GHz.
[QB]I can't stand the product fetishism Apple is breading around it's toys<hr></blockquote>
First a lickable Aqua, now breaded toys. Apple is making me hungry...
mmm... deep-fried iPod...