I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.
Are you ignorant of enslaved workers in sweatshops? Enslaved girls in illegal prostitution rings? Illegal immigrants forced to clean relatives' homes? Slavery is very real in the US.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No not at all and that all bothers me greatly. I was not talking about those examples when I was talking about the slavery of african americans in the history of America. I am sorry I did not make that as clear as I could have I just assumed people would know I was speaking in reference to african american slavery.
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>
I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.
No, you want to just avoid culpability if abortion actually becomes illegal. Sure, go around saying that it isn't up to you but vote for the people that will try to make it illegal. This is a representative system of government we have here. Your vote makes you partially responsible. Voting for someone that wants abortion to be illegal because you agree with his anti-choice stance is just as good as flat out saying that you want it to be illegal.
You cannot hide behind the people you elect...especially if the people you elect take action on the issue that made you vote for them in the first place.
Next I suppose you will be asking me what the definition of is is.
No, you want to just avoid culpability if abortion actually becomes illegal. Sure, go around saying that it isn't up to you but vote for the people that will try to make it illegal. This is a representative system of government we have here. Your vote makes you partially responsible. Voting for someone that wants abortion to be illegal because you agree with his anti-choice stance is just as good as flat out saying that you want it to be illegal.
You cannot hide behind the people you elect...especially if the people you elect take action on the issue that made you vote for them in the first place.
Next I suppose you will be asking me what the definition of is is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BR I have been very clear and gone to great lengths to explain my stance and views over abortion. I welcome this kind of discussion. As for the issue of our democratic style of government that is a reality of this country.
Yes if I vote for a person and they in effect use their leadership power to make abortion illegal for example then such a move by that government official is done so as a political and democratic move and mandate.
This is true with all issues.
If there were say just out of thin air a group of people in the back woods who thought that african american slavery should return and become a reality once again here in 2003 let's say there were 400,000 of them. Those who wish for the return of slavery. Those people will be out voted by the rest of society in our democratic process. The same is true with any issue including abortion. We do live in a democracy and the majority many times has their way.
But Fellowship, with all due respect, all you've said is that "it's wrong" without producing a single shred of evidence or statistics in your favor. You cannot hope to teach anyone this way. Meanwhile, we have shown you time and time again through numbers, studies, historical occurrences and facts that denial of a woman's right to choose is wrong.
You can't even say abortion is wrong because Jesus, or the Bible, or God through any number of means has said so, because they haven't. Only your church has said so. They have imposed their personal (i.e. non-scriptual) beliefs on you, and you have accepted them. You have made that choice.
You cannot deny the right of others to make that choice for themselves. To do so would be anti-Christian.
I do not need charts and graphs or for that matter any data to shore up my viewpoint tonton.
The same is true with the issue of African American Slavery. I would not bother to tell you why I think it is wrong the idea of African American Slavery via statistics and numbers. It is not needed to understand the real reason african american slavery is tragic, wrong, and not humane.
But as a Christian you have the duty to uphold the Christian value of free will. So you have the duty as a Christian to vote against anyone who will take away a person's free will whenever you have that choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.
[quote]Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook:
<strong>
Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.
So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No people are free to either follow or break all laws. I only share my views. We all have our say and that is democracy. There are many things I do not agree with but I manage to get by. I suppose you too will not agree with all things that are reality as well.
These things cannot be compared. It pains me that I have to explain this to you.
We live in a world of science. All mankind, no matter of what race their ancestry, are human. All have rights all have a choice.
There is no scientific basis in the contention that a three month-old fetus is a self-sustainable human life. But it is a fact that illegal abortion leads to death. To support illegal abortion (and by outlawing legal abortion you are in every effect doing exactly that) you are promoting death. This is a very real reason why "anti-choice" is actually "pro-death".
I'd like to know your own personal views on this. Let's assume birth control was used and has failed. When is first trimester abortion acceptable to you?
When a woman knows she cannot love the child?
When the woman will lose any support of her family (i.e. she will be kicked out, lose her chance for education, support, etc.)?
When the woman is at risk of serious abuse?
When the woman cannot afford to raise the child (I'm sure I don't have to quote adoption statistics for you)?
When the woman has been raped?
When the woman is a victim of incest?
When there is a high risk of birth defects?
When serious defects have actually been detected?
When it is clear the baby will not survive?
When the woman may not survive?
Are any of these acceptable to you? Can't you understand why some or all of these scenarios are a compelling reason for many women to choose abortion? Shouldn't they be allowed to make that choice?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not going to make that choice for a mother. I am only going to share my view as to why I view abortion as wrong. I do not buy your argument that a stand against abortion is a stand for death. Sure you can view it that way but I do believe there are consequences for actions and many that you list are such as they are. Consequences. I simply advocate that the mother have the baby if it does not harm her life to do so. If she is an unfit person to raise that child the child needs to be adopted. You mention birth defects... I am not an advocate of aborting a baby when it is known that the baby may have birth defects. If I was to support such a thing that would be no different than to advocate killing all people that have defects. I do not subscribe to that ideal.
Comments
<strong>
BR, While I view it as murder I am not an activist in the area as to "enforce" my views.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So which is it? Do you want to (indirectly) enforce your views and make abortion illegal or not?
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</p>
<strong>
So which is it? Do you want to (indirectly) enforce your views and make abortion illegal or not?
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: BR ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.
Fellowship
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>
Are you ignorant of enslaved workers in sweatshops? Enslaved girls in illegal prostitution rings? Illegal immigrants forced to clean relatives' homes? Slavery is very real in the US.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
No not at all and that all bothers me greatly. I was not talking about those examples when I was talking about the slavery of african americans in the history of America. I am sorry I did not make that as clear as I could have I just assumed people would know I was speaking in reference to african american slavery.
Fellowship
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>
I want to share my views in the hopes of changing the hearts and minds of supporters of abortion on the matter. I do not take a stand on the legality or lack thereof of abortion. As others here have said on the forum women will have them legal or not. Again this is why I employ the simple tactic of attempting to share my view in love with others. Will all agree with my outlook on the matter? No and that is reality.
Fellowship
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, you want to just avoid culpability if abortion actually becomes illegal. Sure, go around saying that it isn't up to you but vote for the people that will try to make it illegal. This is a representative system of government we have here. Your vote makes you partially responsible. Voting for someone that wants abortion to be illegal because you agree with his anti-choice stance is just as good as flat out saying that you want it to be illegal.
You cannot hide behind the people you elect...especially if the people you elect take action on the issue that made you vote for them in the first place.
Next I suppose you will be asking me what the definition of is is.
<strong>
No, you want to just avoid culpability if abortion actually becomes illegal. Sure, go around saying that it isn't up to you but vote for the people that will try to make it illegal. This is a representative system of government we have here. Your vote makes you partially responsible. Voting for someone that wants abortion to be illegal because you agree with his anti-choice stance is just as good as flat out saying that you want it to be illegal.
You cannot hide behind the people you elect...especially if the people you elect take action on the issue that made you vote for them in the first place.
Next I suppose you will be asking me what the definition of is is.</strong><hr></blockquote>
BR I have been very clear and gone to great lengths to explain my stance and views over abortion. I welcome this kind of discussion. As for the issue of our democratic style of government that is a reality of this country.
Yes if I vote for a person and they in effect use their leadership power to make abortion illegal for example then such a move by that government official is done so as a political and democratic move and mandate.
This is true with all issues.
If there were say just out of thin air a group of people in the back woods who thought that african american slavery should return and become a reality once again here in 2003 let's say there were 400,000 of them. Those who wish for the return of slavery. Those people will be out voted by the rest of society in our democratic process. The same is true with any issue including abortion. We do live in a democracy and the majority many times has their way.
Fellowship
<strong>
But Fellowship, with all due respect, all you've said is that "it's wrong" without producing a single shred of evidence or statistics in your favor. You cannot hope to teach anyone this way. Meanwhile, we have shown you time and time again through numbers, studies, historical occurrences and facts that denial of a woman's right to choose is wrong.
You can't even say abortion is wrong because Jesus, or the Bible, or God through any number of means has said so, because they haven't. Only your church has said so. They have imposed their personal (i.e. non-scriptual) beliefs on you, and you have accepted them. You have made that choice.
You cannot deny the right of others to make that choice for themselves. To do so would be anti-Christian.
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: tonton ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I do not need charts and graphs or for that matter any data to shore up my viewpoint tonton.
The same is true with the issue of African American Slavery. I would not bother to tell you why I think it is wrong the idea of African American Slavery via statistics and numbers. It is not needed to understand the real reason african american slavery is tragic, wrong, and not humane.
Fellowship
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
Nice can of worms eh what?
By the way did you play dodge ball as a kid?
B-R
c-a-n
y-o-u
h-e-a-r
m-e
tap tap
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
<strong>
But as a Christian you have the duty to uphold the Christian value of free will. So you have the duty as a Christian to vote against anyone who will take away a person's free will whenever you have that choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.
Fellowship
[ 01-30-2003: Message edited by: FellowshipChurch iBook ]</p>
<strong>
Actually I believe you have that logic understood in a defective way. That simply is not an aplicable logic. As I told BR in an earlier reply the nut down the street does not have the protected freedom or protected right to kill all the cats in the neighborhood. A young man with a gun does not have the protected freedom or protected right to take that gun into a store and kill a clerk. To deny this kind of free will is not anti-Christian nor is the same administration of the restraint of license to abort un-born babies anti-Christian.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.
<strong>
So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No people are free to either follow or break all laws. I only share my views. We all have our say and that is democracy. There are many things I do not agree with but I manage to get by. I suppose you too will not agree with all things that are reality as well.
Fellowship
<strong>
No people are free to either follow or break all laws. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you forcing your bad grammar on us? "No, people are free either to follow laws or to break laws." Grammar police tip of the day.
<strong>
These things cannot be compared. It pains me that I have to explain this to you.
We live in a world of science. All mankind, no matter of what race their ancestry, are human. All have rights all have a choice.
There is no scientific basis in the contention that a three month-old fetus is a self-sustainable human life. But it is a fact that illegal abortion leads to death. To support illegal abortion (and by outlawing legal abortion you are in every effect doing exactly that) you are promoting death. This is a very real reason why "anti-choice" is actually "pro-death".
I'd like to know your own personal views on this. Let's assume birth control was used and has failed. When is first trimester abortion acceptable to you?
When a woman knows she cannot love the child?
When the woman will lose any support of her family (i.e. she will be kicked out, lose her chance for education, support, etc.)?
When the woman is at risk of serious abuse?
When the woman cannot afford to raise the child (I'm sure I don't have to quote adoption statistics for you)?
When the woman has been raped?
When the woman is a victim of incest?
When there is a high risk of birth defects?
When serious defects have actually been detected?
When it is clear the baby will not survive?
When the woman may not survive?
Are any of these acceptable to you? Can't you understand why some or all of these scenarios are a compelling reason for many women to choose abortion? Shouldn't they be allowed to make that choice?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I am not going to make that choice for a mother. I am only going to share my view as to why I view abortion as wrong. I do not buy your argument that a stand against abortion is a stand for death. Sure you can view it that way but I do believe there are consequences for actions and many that you list are such as they are. Consequences. I simply advocate that the mother have the baby if it does not harm her life to do so. If she is an unfit person to raise that child the child needs to be adopted. You mention birth defects... I am not an advocate of aborting a baby when it is known that the baby may have birth defects. If I was to support such a thing that would be no different than to advocate killing all people that have defects. I do not subscribe to that ideal.
Fellowship
<strong>
So all of us must accept your view of when a zygote becomes a human. Fascist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Haven't you heard it's Hitlerist!
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />