There's going to be a massive migration. To OS X. Unless Microsoft gets it together. They tend not to.
Uhhh...no. While Apple has certainly made amazing inroads and more and more business execs desire to use Pads, the fact remains that in most of large corporate America, there are Dells or Lenovo's sitting on most desks. And there are tons of proprietary and vertical market business applications that were developed in .NET and C# (or other languages and platforms) and in many cases, because of the use of plug-in development tools (such as Infragistics), don't even run on Safari. And while that will evolve over time, OS X (or iOS) is not a replacement because the resulting apps won't run on those machines.
I think that programmers who wanted to learn OS X or iOS already have. And at least insofar as developing for iOS devices is concerned, there doesn't seem to be enough of them, at least that's been my company's experience. Among our .NET/C# staff, which is most of our engineers, I don't really sense any urgency on their part to learn the skills required to migrate.
None of this makes any sense unless you assume that the tiles and stuff is just a thin dashboard-y kind of layer and that the rest of Windows is staying more or less the same. If this is true, then the lie is only in maintaining that this is in fact a "touch operating system" when it's really just a widget layer on regular old Windows 7.
I still think they will offer an ARM version with nothing but the thin light weight touch based shell. Backwards comparability doesn't make as much sense on an ARM processor that can't run any legacy code anyway.
In any case how they do it isn't as important as the results.
Things like "is it responsive?", "is the battery and standby life respectable?", "does it run on low powered hardware?" and "are the memory and storage requirements comparable to current media tablets?" are more important than the underlying technology... and if the resutls fail to meet expectations then the market will judge it accordingly.
Corporate IT groups are locked in because they've spent millions training generations of admins to diagnose and re-image pee cees with their custom Windows setups. Too expensive to switch. Not even to a brand-new Microsoft OS.
Users are locked in because they've spent weeks learning all the oddball features of Office that they might never use anyway. Is there really a need to upgrade? And learn all the new weird ribbon interfaces and drill-down paths to yet more checklist features? Nope.
Developers are locked in, because Microsoft couldn't be bothered to evolve Windows or its development environment to handle mobile devices. Not evolving a platform (e.g. Windows Mobile 6.x) condemns it to quickly reach the end of its useful life span and drop dead. To be replaced by a new, totally incompatible platform (e.g. Windows Phone 7.)
Unless there is a backlash against the new OS. Like what happened with Vista.
And, of course, if that backlash succeeds, Microsoft will have no choice but to stay locked in to the past.
Forever looking back to its glory days, the mid-1990s, with misty eyes.
I feel bad for MS. They are stuck in their quagmire of legacy code and so they decide to try something new. And then their developers complain, loudly. Seems they can't win. Seems to me what MS is proposing is a good thing. A clean break from their dirty past. If it will work. Maybe their developers need to do what the kids on the Halo Reach forums always say: Adapt.
I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?
I haven't read through all the comments but the idea that developers will have to revert to Javascript and HTML5 is ridiculous. Microsoft's ASP.NET have controls that automatically code the javascript for you. You have events and parameters to fill at design time but at runtime it is javascript and HTML that are used to the presentation.
The same will be done for Windows 8. The developer will have the same controls they have always had plus new ones for the Windows 8 themes. They will not have to write javascript or HTML5 but they can if they want to look under the hood (well maybe has MS hasn't commented yet).
I feel bad for MS. They are stuck in their quagmire of legacy code and so they decide to try something new. And then their developers complain, loudly.
I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?
Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?
This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!
No, HTML takes weeks to master. Javascript takes a few more months. Being able to design a nice web page with it is another story.
Everyone thinks they know more than they actually do. HTML does not take weeks to master. I know great programmers in other languages who deal with HTML every day and still can't master it. Mastering means more than throwing some HTML on a page. You have to have an intimate understanding of each browser in order work out browser quirks and tailor the experience for each browser etc. Javascript is a lot harder than most people give it credit for....these .NET programmers and Java programmers should try writing some programs in strait up javascript OOP style. Java, VB and .NET provides easy environments to write code in. You drop a button on the screen and then write some code to attach to it with relative ease. Now Objective-C/C/C++ on the other hand... those are much more complex languages than Javascript but .NET provide frameworks and gui buttons to write code with etc...that Javascript doesn't have.
Maybe Tiles 1.0, since it is not really mouse and windows any more.
C# is quite a nice programming language, they just need the .NET runtime to be a bit more efficient, and to add some nice Touch UI classes, and they will be set.
Even if they really are serious about HTML5/JS being the only way to do Tile apps, they will surely have their own extra namespace and tags in the HTML files, e.g. <ms:control type="button"/>.
Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?
This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!
I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.
I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.
And I'm going to go ahead and agree with you, although I would drop that over-enthusiastic 90% to a realistic 80%.
If... and only IF.... MS can get something out of their labs that welds mobile devices to their enterprise machines and core software (Office), they'll be OK.
However in the mean time, I personally think they should be developing Office for iOS; and going off a limb here, but also for Android and RIM, and make sure that what ever they do with Windows 8, it works first before betting the farm on it. Then if it does, it allows users on other platforms a smooth transition back to Windows 8 (if they want to that is). If Win8 takes some more time, then so be it. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, my Dad would say. In this instance, leverage the work done by your competitors, and possibly, steal some steam for yourself.
MS is a software house, and if their own system software blows, and they have no fallback... they're in big trouble going forward. Enterprise services and integration only. A similar position IBM is in today. How ironic. While not necessarily bad, it is a downer for them.
Good that Microsoft for seeking to simplify Windows 8, but I'm sorry. Desktops and laptops are dead. After I get my iPad 2 I dont think i'll ever need to use a "full" computer ever again.
Hell im even on Ubuntu at the moment .
Your right, desktops and laptops are certainly dead. It's obvious how people working in telesales, customer services, publishing, HR, accountants, newspapers, authors, finance, development, architecture etc would be so much better using a 10 inch tablet on their desk at work rather than 2 monitors, keybord and mouse.
JavaSCRIPT, not Java. ... We wouldn't have the rich application-like experience on the web that we do today without javascript (though, we wouldn't have quite nearly the level of security problems without it as well).
That brings up my reaction, which was - if Win8 is built on a skeleton of javascript, doesn't that make it a security nightmare? My favorite Firefox add-on is a scriptblocker; it's been amazing (and scary) to see the number sites that have umpteen unnecessary .js applications running in the background, doing goddess-knows-what.
This isn't a joke, but the developer who was used to comment on Windows 8 obviously is
The dashboard is based on html5/css3 which is SHOULD BE, that doesn't mean you write your application in HTML 5, it just means if you want a front end that shows on the dashboard tiles you write it with HTML 5, which is a good thing.
You can't tell me you know how to write C++ but can't write HTML5, it's too easy.
>> I'm pretty sure this is going to be an "additional development" environment.
Much like iAd and the multimedia features of iTunes use HTML5 and Javascript to create interactive magazines.
I'm pretty sure it's going to be a useful addition -- not a replacement. And it merely sets a standard for using "web standards" to make interactive content or apps WITHOUT coding -- which is pretty much like a lot of Widgets on the Mac that don't require any real code.
Microsoft will probably do a much better job of documenting it than Apple did.
... On the other hand, I'm also guessing they will be "re-inventing" a lot, and the HTML 5 won't be an HTML 5 that plays well with anything else, and they will create an "emulation layer" depending on future hardware to be faster than it is now (which makes their OEM customers happy).
Developers will NOT be screwed -- as this is Microsoft's bread and butter.
Sounds like FUD is now working against Microsoft the way it's been for Apple, though.
Comments
There's going to be a massive migration. To OS X. Unless Microsoft gets it together. They tend not to.
Uhhh...no. While Apple has certainly made amazing inroads and more and more business execs desire to use Pads, the fact remains that in most of large corporate America, there are Dells or Lenovo's sitting on most desks. And there are tons of proprietary and vertical market business applications that were developed in .NET and C# (or other languages and platforms) and in many cases, because of the use of plug-in development tools (such as Infragistics), don't even run on Safari. And while that will evolve over time, OS X (or iOS) is not a replacement because the resulting apps won't run on those machines.
I think that programmers who wanted to learn OS X or iOS already have. And at least insofar as developing for iOS devices is concerned, there doesn't seem to be enough of them, at least that's been my company's experience. Among our .NET/C# staff, which is most of our engineers, I don't really sense any urgency on their part to learn the skills required to migrate.
None of this makes any sense unless you assume that the tiles and stuff is just a thin dashboard-y kind of layer and that the rest of Windows is staying more or less the same. If this is true, then the lie is only in maintaining that this is in fact a "touch operating system" when it's really just a widget layer on regular old Windows 7.
I still think they will offer an ARM version with nothing but the thin light weight touch based shell. Backwards comparability doesn't make as much sense on an ARM processor that can't run any legacy code anyway.
In any case how they do it isn't as important as the results.
Things like "is it responsive?", "is the battery and standby life respectable?", "does it run on low powered hardware?" and "are the memory and storage requirements comparable to current media tablets?" are more important than the underlying technology... and if the resutls fail to meet expectations then the market will judge it accordingly.
Users are locked in because they've spent weeks learning all the oddball features of Office that they might never use anyway. Is there really a need to upgrade? And learn all the new weird ribbon interfaces and drill-down paths to yet more checklist features? Nope.
Developers are locked in, because Microsoft couldn't be bothered to evolve Windows or its development environment to handle mobile devices. Not evolving a platform (e.g. Windows Mobile 6.x) condemns it to quickly reach the end of its useful life span and drop dead. To be replaced by a new, totally incompatible platform (e.g. Windows Phone 7.)
Unless there is a backlash against the new OS. Like what happened with Vista.
And, of course, if that backlash succeeds, Microsoft will have no choice but to stay locked in to the past.
Forever looking back to its glory days, the mid-1990s, with misty eyes.
I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?
The same will be done for Windows 8. The developer will have the same controls they have always had plus new ones for the Windows 8 themes. They will not have to write javascript or HTML5 but they can if they want to look under the hood (well maybe has MS hasn't commented yet).
Don't worry ... be happy!
I feel bad for MS. They are stuck in their quagmire of legacy code and so they decide to try something new. And then their developers complain, loudly.
they should be happy. I mean it could be worse.
They could be herpes
they should be happy. I mean it could be worse.
They could be herpes
Hmm, Rim and Herpes together again at last.
...
I'm not a coder, but can you really base an entire OS on Java and HTML5?
Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?
This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!
No, HTML takes weeks to master. Javascript takes a few more months. Being able to design a nice web page with it is another story.
Everyone thinks they know more than they actually do. HTML does not take weeks to master. I know great programmers in other languages who deal with HTML every day and still can't master it. Mastering means more than throwing some HTML on a page. You have to have an intimate understanding of each browser in order work out browser quirks and tailor the experience for each browser etc. Javascript is a lot harder than most people give it credit for....these .NET programmers and Java programmers should try writing some programs in strait up javascript OOP style. Java, VB and .NET provides easy environments to write code in. You drop a button on the screen and then write some code to attach to it with relative ease. Now Objective-C/C/C++ on the other hand... those are much more complex languages than Javascript but .NET provide frameworks and gui buttons to write code with etc...that Javascript doesn't have.
Oh, let me guess... Windows 8
Maybe Tiles 1.0, since it is not really mouse and windows any more.
C# is quite a nice programming language, they just need the .NET runtime to be a bit more efficient, and to add some nice Touch UI classes, and they will be set.
Even if they really are serious about HTML5/JS being the only way to do Tile apps, they will surely have their own extra namespace and tags in the HTML files, e.g. <ms:control type="button"/>.
Tthis is not the first time that Microsoft made a big thing about using a browser interface to navigate Windows. If memory serves, this was first done with Windows 98. However, the user base never adapted. The web browser is a good paradigm for navigating content. It is a poor paradigm for navigating files, directories, and volumes. Also, it is one thing to incorporate JavaScript into a website and to write animations using HTML5. However, the notion of replacing standalone binary applications with JavaScript and HTML5 boggles the mind. Will Windows users require 3.5 GHz Xeon clusters to get decent performance out of WordPad?
This does not sound like Microsoft jumped the shark. This sounds like Microsoft tried to jump the shark and didn't make it!
I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.
I'm just going to disagree with this outright because this has not been proven. HTML5 is in constant beta and may become great for file management if it isn't already. For most people they don't need to do that much file management. Everyone does not need the most powerful computer and managing files on their machine in the same way you would if you had a traditional OS. Most computers are way more powerful than what is needed for 90% of the people.
And I'm going to go ahead and agree with you, although I would drop that over-enthusiastic 90% to a realistic 80%.
If... and only IF.... MS can get something out of their labs that welds mobile devices to their enterprise machines and core software (Office), they'll be OK.
However in the mean time, I personally think they should be developing Office for iOS; and going off a limb here, but also for Android and RIM, and make sure that what ever they do with Windows 8, it works first before betting the farm on it. Then if it does, it allows users on other platforms a smooth transition back to Windows 8 (if they want to that is). If Win8 takes some more time, then so be it. Don't put all your eggs in one basket, my Dad would say. In this instance, leverage the work done by your competitors, and possibly, steal some steam for yourself.
MS is a software house, and if their own system software blows, and they have no fallback... they're in big trouble going forward. Enterprise services and integration only. A similar position IBM is in today. How ironic. While not necessarily bad, it is a downer for them.
AI: The company also clarified that it has not officially revealed a name for the next-generation version of Windows
Oh, let me guess... Windows 8
What takes you to this conclusion ? Let's have a look at the lineup :
Windows 3.1
Windows 95
Windows Millenium
Windows NT
Windows 2000
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Chances are about even it would be called Windows 8 or Windows Linux.
Good that Microsoft for seeking to simplify Windows 8, but I'm sorry. Desktops and laptops are dead. After I get my iPad 2 I dont think i'll ever need to use a "full" computer ever again.
Hell im even on Ubuntu at the moment
Your right, desktops and laptops are certainly dead. It's obvious how people working in telesales, customer services, publishing, HR, accountants, newspapers, authors, finance, development, architecture etc would be so much better using a 10 inch tablet on their desk at work rather than 2 monitors, keybord and mouse.
</sarcasm>
Knowing Java, C/C++ and C#, I'll pick Java every time.
There are definitely times when C++ would be the sensible pick over java, but that's a big discussion.
JavaSCRIPT, not Java. ... We wouldn't have the rich application-like experience on the web that we do today without javascript (though, we wouldn't have quite nearly the level of security problems without it as well).
That brings up my reaction, which was - if Win8 is built on a skeleton of javascript, doesn't that make it a security nightmare? My favorite Firefox add-on is a scriptblocker; it's been amazing (and scary) to see the number sites that have umpteen unnecessary .js applications running in the background, doing goddess-knows-what.
This isn't a joke, but the developer who was used to comment on Windows 8 obviously is
The dashboard is based on html5/css3 which is SHOULD BE, that doesn't mean you write your application in HTML 5, it just means if you want a front end that shows on the dashboard tiles you write it with HTML 5, which is a good thing.
You can't tell me you know how to write C++ but can't write HTML5, it's too easy.
>> I'm pretty sure this is going to be an "additional development" environment.
Much like iAd and the multimedia features of iTunes use HTML5 and Javascript to create interactive magazines.
I'm pretty sure it's going to be a useful addition -- not a replacement. And it merely sets a standard for using "web standards" to make interactive content or apps WITHOUT coding -- which is pretty much like a lot of Widgets on the Mac that don't require any real code.
Microsoft will probably do a much better job of documenting it than Apple did.
... On the other hand, I'm also guessing they will be "re-inventing" a lot, and the HTML 5 won't be an HTML 5 that plays well with anything else, and they will create an "emulation layer" depending on future hardware to be faster than it is now (which makes their OEM customers happy).
Developers will NOT be screwed -- as this is Microsoft's bread and butter.
Sounds like FUD is now working against Microsoft the way it's been for Apple, though.
What takes you to this conclusion ? Let's have a look at the lineup :
Windows 3.1
Windows 95
Windows Millenium
Windows NT
Windows 2000
Windows XP
Windows Vista
Windows 7
Chances are about even it would be called Windows 8 or Windows Linux.
Well, let's think about the current trends and marketing hype that MS marketing is sure to latch onto -- about these names;
Windows HD
Windows 3D
Windows OPEN
Windows Web
Well, let's think about the current trends and marketing hype that MS marketing is sure to latch onto -- about these names;
Windows HD
Windows 3D
Windows OPEN
Windows Web
It is broader than this :
Windows No More
iWindows
Windows for Android (aka pee in the pants for warmth version)
Windows ! Windows ! Windows !
Doors
Windows Last Cry
Windows for Kinnect
Quit IE6 Now !
Windows Mobile 8 Big Screen Edition
... the list goes on